Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[xx7king7xx]

No problem. Also, here is a gif that illustrates the “perfect” spacing:

At no point in this animation could Link have hit the Marth with up-B or grab.

does this work against other characters or is this link specific also is there any way to space your aerials to apply shield pressure where they are in shield stun long enough to where you can input shiledbreaker in between to actually break there shield in time before they can react.

 

[Bones0]

does this work against other characters or is this link specific also is there any way to space your aerials to apply shield pressure where they are in shield stun long enough to where you can input shiledbreaker in between to actually break there shield in time before they can react.

That gif was just to demonstrate spacing around Link's grab/up-B. He wasn't locked in shield stun. Any character can move OoS at various points between SHDF -> dtilt or before shield breaker. I doubt anyone will be able to dodge shield breaker on reaction, but trying to shield breaker is pretty risky as most people move OoS first chance they get.

 

[xx7king7xx]

hmm but if you know there going for a certain option out of shield like in the gif couldnt marth go for the shield breaker after the double fair in the last sequence would it work and would it come out fast enough? ofcourse this typical goes to mindgames but i would like incorporate shield breaker into marth metagame if possible

 

[Bones0]

hmm but if you know there going for a certain option out of shield like in the gif couldnt marth go for the shield breaker after the double fair in the last sequence would it work and would it come out fast enough? ofcourse this typical goes to mindgames but i would like incorporate shield breaker into marth metagame if possible

Well the first issue is shield breaker isn't terribly quick even uncharged, and it's even worse when you're trying to hit opponents in front of you as opposed to above you where you can get the earliest hitbox to connect. If you assume they can react reasonably well to shield breaker, you basically can't charge it so their shield has to get worn down a ton before you can even attempt it. Even then, I'd imagine most OoS options would avoid late fair -> shield breaker, and in this metagame's climate, WDing OoS as early as possible is pretty textbook for zoning-esque pressure such as Marth fairs.

The number of things that has to go right in order for you to break someone's shield is just overwhelming, especially when you realize you could have grabbed them at about 10 different points throughout the shield pressure, all of which is easily escapable, btw. Good luck hitting a good player with more than two fairs on shield when most just WD or roll away after one...

 

[Mahie]

i would like incorporate shield breaker into marth metagame if possible

Don't we all my friend, don't we all.

 

[xCardiac]

Don't we all my friend, don't we all.

amen.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Sup Kadano

Can you break down the dthrow by the ledge scenarios v Sheik, at low %s (below ~30). I can't tell how well dair actually covers her jump up; it feels like I have to hard read her timing. Its very hard to react to. And the odd delays and angles she can take make it inconsistent. I'm not sure exactly how I should angle my dair either. If I short hop immediately, what is my reaction window to cover the jump?

When I do get it though, its a 0% kill from only a grab and an aerial. Completely turns matches around.

 

[Kadano]

I’m not sure what you are referring to, could you give me a video example?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Mm, no I can't. I can't remember a match where you see it.

Basically, if you dthrow a low % sheik offstage, you can do an immediate shorthop dair and catch her on her double jump back onstage (she will usually be trying to fair you).

 

[Kadano]

@ TheCrimsonBlur I’ll break this up anti-chronologically so that constant frame amounts come first and variable last.

Sheik’s fair hitbox comes out on frame 5 and has proper extension on frame 6, whereas your dair hitbox comes out on frame 6. After a dthrow, we can assume we won’t hit her until frame 8 or 9, when Marth swings his sword towards his backside. To be on the safe side, I will assume that we hit on frame 9. This makes our frame advantage be −3.

Marth’s jumpsquat is 4 whereas Sheik’s double jump only takes 1 frame until she is actionable. This adds up to a total (dis)advantage of −6.

Marth’s dthrow releases Sheik on frame 13 and ends on frame 38. (Credit goes to Magus420)
Thus, dthrow has 25 frames of lag after Sheik is released. Added up to the subsequent frame disadvantage, we get −31.

To make the dair connect before her fair can, we need to have her dthrow hitstun be more than this amount. At 0%, dthrow only has 30 frames hitstun, calculated with Strong Bad’s Excel sheet. We need to subtract another 2 frames because throw hitstun is counted in a weird way (maybe due to throws having no hitlag? I’m not sure). So the effective number we need to see in the Excel sheet is not 32, but 34.
The percentage we need is exactly 40. If we allow trades as well, it’s 30.

I tested these percentages and can confirm them. At 28%, only Sheik’s fair hit, and at 30%, it was a trade.

If Sheik DIs in and up, her fair will whiff, but she will only get hit by dair’s sourspot if you do a full backwards short hop. There are two solutions to this problem: the first is doing straight short hops on reaction (requires visual reaction times of about 10 frames on rather sublime position differences), the second is doing half-backward short hops by holding not fully behind, but in one of the 45° notches. This way, you catch both her DI-in-and-up and her no-DI fair attempts with a sweetspot dair.

The reaction window to check for DI away (in this case, I recommend taking the ledge instead as putting yourself above her with a whiffed dair is really bad) is 10 frames as well. Or 14, if you are able to react during jumpsquat and do a wavedash instead of a jump. 10 frames is doable, but by no means easy as the visual triggers are so subtle.
_________________________________________________________________________

Summary: Safe when Sheik has at least 30% before she is dthrown and you can tell on reaction that she does not DI away. Expect a trade unless she has at least 40%.
During the short hop jumpsquat, hold either in the upper or the lower 45° octagon notch to get a slight backward short hop. Holding slightly, but straight back works too, but it’s less reliable.

Edit: It seems full jump dair is even better – it catches both DI options as well and never gets you hit. Have some pictures:
Left side: no DI, right side: DI in and up (135°)
Upper row: short hop, lower row: full jump

This is the earliest percentage where this is absolutely guaranteed. Because full jump positions you above Sheik, you will hit her on frame 8 of your dair, before her fair can hit you.
Post layout optimized for screen resolutions of 1280x1024+. If the animations are not in sync, scroll up until you can’t see them anymore and then quickly scroll down so that all are loaded at the same time.
If you want other speeds (these have 80ms frame intervals, so about 20% speed), just ask, I always keep the frames so it’s really easy to make gifs with other speeds.

 

[Vino]

Do you think that this setup would work on falcons when they jump back on stage with a move as well?

 

[Kadano]

To answer this question, we first need to look at what changes from Sheik to Captain Falcon.

The first thing that comes to mind is weight (90 vs. 104). Marth’s base throw durations of 14 (release) and 43 (end) get stretched to 15 and 45 for Captain Falcon. Because 43 − 14 is 29 whereas Sheik has 38 − 13 = 25, we have a disadvantage of −4 here that we need to compensate by higher hitstun (accomplished by higher %) ∨ slower aerial startup of Captain Falcon compared to Sheik.

Captain Falcon’s fastest aerial is uair, which comes out on frame 6 and has proper hitbox extension immediately. Thus, we can’t expect to compensate here, so we need to shift our attention all to damage increasing (unless your opponent tries to knee you instead, which comes out on frame 14 – that’s just slow enough for the “trick” to work even at 0%).

Because throw launch speed and thus hitstun is not weight-dependent, we can just move upwards on the scale we used before. To extend the hitstun by 4 frames, we need the Captain Falcon to be at 71% or higher.

If Captain Falcon does not DI the dthrow in and attempts an uair, you can catch him with a straight dair from 0%.

Against Captain Falcon, I’d rather do what Mew2king recommended: mixing up counter and run off fair. The first will catch doublejump aerials, the second sweetspot dj ledgegrab attempts.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Thanks Kadano

So basically

-below 30%, you're gonna get fair'd if you shorthop and she does the DJ fair immediately. You've got to shield/counter/dash?
-at 30% (and I'm assuming most of the 30s), if you hard read an instant dj fair, you can get the dair. However, if she delays the dj even a little bit, you're gonna whiff (since dair only has a couple active frame on the back) and either get fair'd (if you did the short hop) or get death combo'd (if you did the full hop)
-if she DIs away at all, the dair doesn't cover anything and she can just grab the ledge. You have a 10 frame reaction window to read the DI away but lets be real.

Blah, its such a sticky scenario. I wish the threat of dair would force Sheik low, so Marth could edgeguard, but its actually the other way around: the threat of her fair prevents Marth from grabbing the ledge, so unless he throws a dair out, hoping to get her DJ perfectly, theres not much he can do until the higher %s...

I've messed around with ledgecancels after the dair, shield->dair, etc but nothing is consistent. Not being able to throw her offstage and earn a real edgeguard scenario (like just about any other character can do to Sheik, at any %), hurts so so much...

=/

 

[Bones0]

What percent, if any, can you WD FF onto the ledge before she can hit you?

 

[MT_]

@TCB you can push DJ fair by simply walking away from the ledge slightly and then Fsmashing the fair on reaction. You can't cover both of Sheik dropping low AND her attempting a double jump fair to swat your WD FF to the ledge, but it's a HUGE risk for her to try to DJ fair your WD FF to the ledge because if you just wait -> fsmash her after she fairs then she is off the stage without a double jump. Dair as an idea after dthrow just seemed really bad in the first place lol.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Take an example of Luigi when he performs his Bair. When he lands his body flattens going downward. In which case you can miss him with a standing grab even though he is clearly in lag. Would anyone care to know more about which characters this sort of conditions to know about dash grab versus jc grab?

 

[Kadano]

the threat of her fair prevents Marth from grabbing the ledge, so unless he throws a dair out, hoping to get her DJ perfectly, theres not much he can do until the higher %s...

What percent, if any, can you WD FF onto the ledge before she can hit you?

WD edgehog before fair can hit you is possible from 0% on. It requires you to stand directly on the ledge, though – if you are even slightly away from it, her fair can hit you.
Because of dthrow’s rather high base knockback, this will have you just out of her fair range. Now there might be certain DI angles where she can get the fair, but I doubt it. I tested no DI, maximum DI in (135°), DI down and maximum DI away (315°), and for all of these, Marth got the edgehog.

Now while this might seem like a good thing to do, I have no idea how we could convert this edgehog. Even if Sheik does not use her doublejump, her up-B is extremely threatening to Marth hanging on the ledge. Hitting her during the startup with a ledgehop bair is not possible – she will start to be intangible 2 frames before the bair hitbox comes out.
Ledgestalling to prevent her from grabbing the ledge does not work either. By the time you fall down from the backwards ledgedash, she will grab the ledge 2 frames before your disabled regrab period ends.
Opting to just hang there won’t work either, your intangibility runs out while her explosion is still out.

The only thing that I have found so far is immediately doing the quick getup just as her explosion comes out. This way your intangibility is continuous and you beat both her downward explosions and wall-collide ledge attempt explosions (those are edgehogged). If she does the one where she collides with the wall, but lands on the stage, you can turnaround grab her just in time. If she decides to go straight up, you can just fsmash her.

Oh, and if she tries to hit you with double jump fair earlier on, you can punish her with ledgehop uair afterwards. Which leads to utilts and good stuff.

So yeah, probably the best thing to do if you got the grab just at the ledge is dthrow → wd edgehog → react:
1. She does double jump fair? Get her with ledgehop uair.
2. She tries to up-B close to you so that explosion could hit you? Press forward just when her explosion comes out (not possible on reaction, but you should be able to tell from her up-B animation).
3. She tries to up-B a bit away (enough for her explosion to whiff) from you to trick you? Keep hanging there and react to where she reappears. I think I wrote how to deal with this somewhere, will quote this if I find it.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Um

Airdodge?

Cause that's the most common option. Into dsmash, shield, or spotdodge. The frame leniency on a (uncrouchcancelable) uair punish must be crazy small, if its even possible.

I'm also guessing this is very dependent on position relative to the ledge.

@TCB you can push DJ fair by simply walking away from the ledge slightly and then Fsmashing the fair on reaction. You can't cover both of Sheik dropping low AND her attempting a double jump fair to swat your WD FF to the ledge, but it's a HUGE risk for her to try to DJ fair your WD FF to the ledge because if you just wait -> fsmash her after she fairs then she is off the stage without a double jump. Dair as an idea after dthrow just seemed really bad in the first place lol.

How true is this?

[very interesting convo btw...]

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

Kadano, i have non technical question.

How much farther do You think marth can be pushed in this game? I think most of the cast within real limits can be pushed farther or are very unexplored in many respects(before i read stuff here). I've felt that marth is if anyone the closest to his limits of reasonable skill and uses (but we don't know how he will deal with new development of others if anyone remembers when puff wasn't a match-up marth had to worry about).

Do You think marth still has deeper to reach in this metagame or is he starting to reach these limits of human perfection?

 

[Kadano]

Marth's only strengths in an advancing metagame are his quick high-range attacks: fair, bair, dtilt and to a lesser extent grab. I do believe that these tools are sufficient for Marth to keep competing with Fox's speed, Falco's and Peach's coverage and Sheik's reaction game at the highest level.
Hbox's Jigglypuff is still undefeated by Marth unless I've missed an upset. Pewpewu came really close, he just hadn't studied the matchup well enough. If he had, he would have won.

I agree with Umbreon that Marth's hidden potential lies in micro-situational incrementalism.
Because Marth lacks the aforementioned tools other top-tiers have, he needs to focus on evading all of his opponent's pushes while still exerting pressure by having his weapons all out. Because his attacks have more startup than those of other characters, Marth players absolutely need to make use of their reaction times with as little leniency as possible. Otherwise, you will miss those 2 frames of dashing away, or those 2 frames of aerial startup that will make you get hit by Sheik's fair before your bair comes out.

Marth players who try to go all react-and-deny often fail very hard. They do long dashdance sweeps and look at their opponent to react accordingly as soon as he takes action, but then they get hit by things like Peach's dash attack. So where did they fail?
Most of the time, it's one of two things: 1) they didn't use their eyes correctly or 2) they didn't actually know the optimal counter to Peach's dashattack.
To improve 1), you need to look at the most subtle visual cues and react with similar subtlety. If you see Peach dashing forward a little bit more, don't assume a dash attack immediately and retreat a large amount. Giving up space is a high entropy option that you don't want to resort to unless you have to in order not to shield or even get hit. Depending on your distance to her, you can either dtilt where she will be if she keeps dashing or do a wavedash with little to no backwards motion to give yourself 14 frames of reaction buffer. The angle for the wavedash must be chosen depending on how far away she is from you. You want to wavedash because it gives you the dtilt option you do not have during dash dance, unless you can pivot dtilt consistently.
To improve 2), you need to basically play more. Try to figure out the proper answer to a push you can't get around the next time your opponent uses it. Don't be afraid of going for weird choices, try as many options as possible until you find one that works.

 

[Vivec]

What are the differences (if there are any) between chain grabbing falco and chain grabbing fox?

 

[Emrys]

Beat wrote a flowchart for the chaingrab against Fox:

“Upthrow CG flowchart against Fox
Read these notes before reading the flowchart:
- All damage numbers in this guide, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are PRE-THROW percentages.
- This flowchart assumes that you have room to work with. If your opponent starts DIing towards an edge you need to be prepared to cut the combo short with a tipper or dair.
- Every follow-up in every step is reactable. There's no need to guess or read which way they'll DI.
- Pummels aren't mandatory, but they make it easier to execute the following move and the extra damage they tack on means the finishing tipper will be stronger.

1. 0 - 16%: Regular regrabs

2. 17 - 32%:
2a. No DI or slight behind DI: Pivot regrabs.
2b. Any other DI: Regular regrabs.

3.0. 33%:
3.0a. No DI: Turnaround uptilt -> regrab
3.0b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt -> regrab
3.0c. Any other DI: Regular regrab -> pummel

3.1. 34% (the reason it's different from 33% is that uptilt starts becoming unreliable against no DI because of its weird "not-upwards" hitboxes. If you actually get the correct hitbox, it'll still connect into a regrab, so if you feel confident that you can get it every time then just follow the chart for 33%):
3.1a. No DI: Rising SHFFL uair --> regrab
3.1b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt --> regrab
3.1c. Any other DI: Regular regrab

3.2. 35 - ~59%:
4a. No DI or slight behind DI: SHFFL uair -> regrab
4b. Any other DI: Regular regrab

5.0. ~60 - ~65%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> regrab (they should now have at least 80%, but less than 90%)

5.1. ~69 - ~75%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 105%)

6.0. ~80 - ~84%: Pummel once or twice before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 110%)

6.1. ~85 - ~87%: Delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 115%)

7. 90+%: Either upthrow -> tipper or upthrow -> weak uair -> tipper“



The following is my opinion on the Falco chaingrab, someone (Kadano ) might test if it's true.


Against Falco the chaingrab is not quite as easy, the throw animation is slower because he weighs more than Fox.

For example, you will not be able to regrab Falco after an upthrow at 0% if he DIs towards you as he will land before your grab comes out. You can however react to his tech, or if he does not tech, jab reset him (it’s escapable by DI ing up though).

At 0% I would either downthrow him first depending on my stage position, or outrange his approach with an aerial to build some base damage.

Once Falco has taken slight damage the chaingrab works fine against him too but still feels a bit harder because of the slower animation.



Someone should write a flowchart for the Falco chaingrab, that would be really helpful.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

i dont play much anymore but theres one thing i wanna know before i die and thats
does marth stay invincible when he does a crisp sex dash on the ledge

 

[Bones0]

i dont play much anymore but theres one thing i wanna know before i die and thats
does marth stay invincible when he does a crisp sex dash on the ledge

Frame perfect ledgedash yields 4 frames of actionable invincibility iirc.

 

[Kadano]

Bones0 remembers correctly.
Although Marth has less actionable intangibility left than Fox, Falco and Sheik, his ledgedash is easier to execute consistently. Because of his relatively low double jump speed, his ECB always gets re-aligned before he has risen above the stage. Thus, the ledgedash timing is always the same, regardless of how you grabbed the ledge. i

@ Vivec and @ E Emrys : I don’t want to go into chaingrabbing specifics in text form. I feel I can’t explain the subtleties of what you need to do exactly without writing a text too long and complicated for anyone to read it completely. My motivation for the video project is currently rather high, so knowing about these kinds of requests gives me further incentive to finally get started with it.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

Frame perfect ledgedash yields 4 frames of actionable invincibility iirc.

oh my bad i meant the ledgehop into waveland regrab the ledge
hax does it but i forget what its called lol

 

[Emrys]

oh my bad i meant the ledgehop into waveland regrab the ledge
hax does it but i forget what its called lol

It's called a haxdash.
You can find the animation and explanation for how to do it perfectly in the first page of this thread.

A frame perfect haxdash with Marth will let you stay invincible, but if you are even one frame too slow, you will still be vulnerable and if you do it too fast, you'll sd.

I consider it too risky to do in serious matches unless you manage to get a perfect haxdash 99% of the time, and I haven't seen anyone pull that of yet (at least not with Marth).

 

[Chesstiger2612]

About the possible potential Marth still has, we could try to calculate out the most few important mindgame situation and explore Marth's potential in mindgame situations

 

[Dr Peepee]

oh this thread is neat. I need to be in here way more lol.

My Marth beat Hbox 3-2 in PM in December if that's worth noting. It's also recorded lol. Not quite the same game but thought I'd mention it.

Zenith 2012 I also beat Hbox in a serious set 2-1 but it wasn't tournament. You guys can take what you want from that but there's more Marth can do to Puff than even I currently do =)

I'm excited to read through here and get in on the discussion!

 

[Signia]

Finally finished reading through the thread, and I've found out how little I actually know Marth.

But I'd like to discuss side-B applications.

Marth's side-Bs are "transcendent" hitboxes, unlike Roy's, which means they cannot clash with any attack. http://gyazo.com/3a206828fe319f6ad7dd79ad055573a6 http://www.ssbwiki.com/Priority#In_Melee
What does implications does this have in a match?

We all know that the move sucks pretty bad for hitting grounded characters, but why is that? Doesn't the fact that it never clashes and is disjointed make it an amazing poke? Or is it too much disadvantage? Is mixing up the number of side Bs you do and hit confirming, like in a jab string, ever worth it?

I'd also like to point out that side-B into the second and especially third up attack variants pop people right above Marth, right where he wants them to be. I use side-B only to stop Falcon SHFFL approaches. To be able to throw out an attack covering that area out of a dash-dance is very valuable, and if they're in the air they can't crouch cancel it. At higher percents it seems to combo into F-smash. At what does it lead to combos into 4th side-B, grab, uptilt, F-smash, or aerials?

When is the third hit of side-B a viable kill move against what characters?

Sorry, that's a lot of questions, but it seems like so little is known about side-B, and it's one of the moves that hasn't been seen much since the days of Ken and Azen. Did m2k abandon the move for a reason?

 

[Tee ay eye]

ignore this post

i love you, xeylode

 

[Bones0]

The only thing that matters about Sword Dance is that it has pretty colors.

These days, when I side-B combo people, I yell "taste the rainbow!"

 

[AustinRC]

oh this thread is neat. I need to be in here way more lol.

My Marth beat Hbox 3-2 in PM in December if that's worth noting. It's also recorded lol. Not quite the same game but thought I'd mention it.

Zenith 2012 I also beat Hbox in a serious set 2-1 but it wasn't tournament. You guys can take what you want from that but there's more Marth can do to Puff than even I don't do =)

I'm excited to read through here and get in on the discussion!

Edited for truth.

 

[iffy525]

Could we see some stuff on the "Mang0-style" edgehog against Marth? (where he jumps back and grabs the ledge AFTER Marth up-b's)

 

[swanized]

is marth's first hit of side-B safe on shield?

 

[Bones0]

The angle your stick is held can reduce your run speed, but can it reduce your dash speed?

 

[Kadano]

Could we see some stuff on the "Mang0-style" edgehog against Marth? (where he jumps back and grabs the ledge AFTER Marth up-b's)

Situation like this are hard to analyze because they depend on so many variables. How close to the ledge are you, when did Fox grab the ledge compared to your side-B pattern etc.
I definitely won’t do this in text form, video maybe.

is marth's first hit of side-B safe on shield?

Against Yoshi, yes. His fastest option out of shield I know is grab, which is so bad that you only need to turn away and it will whiff.
If it’s safe on anyone else, it’s probably be the one with the longest jumpsquat, Bowser. What I have found is that instant dash away will escape both his up-B and his wavedash jab.
Against better characters, it’s a lot less safe. Captain Falcon can wavedash grab, but if your timing is perfect, you can spot dodge it (zero leniency). Buffering the spot dodge with the C-stick does not work because the shield will come out for 1 frame.
If Captain Falcon opts to jab instead, you will get hit.
Peach can wd dsmash and hit you in the first actionable frame. Of course you can shield it, but I don’t think that’s what you want.
Fox and Falco have shine, so they will have an even easier time punishing you.

The angle your stick is held can reduce your run speed, but can it reduce your dash speed?

Yes. This is what allows for moonwalks to exist.

 

[1MachGO]

Marth's only strengths in an advancing metagame are his quick high-range attacks: fair, bair, dtilt and to a lesser extent grab. I do believe that these tools are sufficient for Marth to keep competing with Fox's speed, Falco's and Peach's coverage and Sheik's reaction game at the highest level.
Hbox's Jigglypuff is still undefeated by Marth unless I've missed an upset. Pewpewu came really close, he just hadn't studied the matchup well enough. If he had, he would have won.

I agree with Umbreon that Marth's hidden potential lies in micro-situational incrementalism.
Because Marth lacks the aforementioned tools other top-tiers have, he needs to focus on evading all of his opponent's pushes while still exerting pressure by having his weapons all out. Because his attacks have more startup than those of other characters, Marth players absolutely need to make use of their reaction times with as little leniency as possible. Otherwise, you will miss those 2 frames of dashing away, or those 2 frames of aerial startup that will make you get hit by Sheik's fair before your bair comes out.

Marth players who try to go all react-and-deny often fail very hard. They do long dashdance sweeps and look at their opponent to react accordingly as soon as he takes action, but then they get hit by things like Peach's dash attack. So where did they fail?
Most of the time, it's one of two things: 1) they didn't use their eyes correctly or 2) they didn't actually know the optimal counter to Peach's dashattack.
To improve 1), you need to look at the most subtle visual cues and react with similar subtlety. If you see Peach dashing forward a little bit more, don't assume a dash attack immediately and retreat a large amount. Giving up space is a high entropy option that you don't want to resort to unless you have to in order not to shield or even get hit. Depending on your distance to her, you can either dtilt where she will be if she keeps dashing or do a wavedash with little to no backwards motion to give yourself 14 frames of reaction buffer. The angle for the wavedash must be chosen depending on how far away she is from you. You want to wavedash because it gives you the dtilt option you do not have during dash dance, unless you can pivot dtilt consistently.
To improve 2), you need to basically play more. Try to figure out the proper answer to a push you can't get around the next time your opponent uses it. Don't be afraid of going for weird choices, try as many options as possible until you find one that works.

After reading this, I'm curious, do you think Marth is an inherently aggressive character or defensive character? Can he be played as both? Or is it MU dependent?

Also, do you you think that dash dancing is overused as the the go-to neutral game option? Is there any merit to just walking toward the opponent and then reacting accordingly?

 

[Kadano]

After reading this, I'm curious, do you think Marth is an inherently aggressive character or defensive character? Can he be played as both? Or is it MU dependent?

Also, do you you think that dash dancing is overused as the the go-to neutral game option? Is there any merit to just walking toward the opponent and then reacting accordingly?

There is no need to be aggressive or defensive. There are situations in which the optimal choice is perceived as aggressive by many players, and there are those where it is perceived as defensive.
Marth always has a perfect spacing where he has conquered lots of ground while his opponent has next to none. The distance between him and his opponent of this perfect spacing is character-dependent. Things that increase it are:
− The opponent has high dash speed ∨ quick attacks ∨ high jump acceleration ∨ fast rolls ∨ short jumpsquat animation
− You have higher reaction times (∨ little knowledge of visual cues and optimal counter moves)
− The opponent has fast out-of-shield options (Yoshi, Bowser, Ness, Ice Climbers, maybe others as well do not)

If all variables work in your favor, the perfect range will be just as long as tipper dtilt would hit. For every factor listed above, this range increases a little.

To answer your second question, yes, I do think so. Dashdance takes away the dtilt option (unless you can consistently pivot dtilt) which is quite a loss. Unfortunately, using walk and dtilt instead will often slow you down because you get stuck in things like the Turn animation. I believe wavedash is a bit underused in neutral. At the end of the wavedash, you have all your options available. When I try to do a run-canceled utilt, I often get an usmash instead – with wavedash, this is much less of a problem because you can hold the direction so the smash input is no longer active.

Another merit to wavedash is that it gives you a nice time buffer. During the 10 frames LandingFallSpecial, you can put all the focus on observing your opponent and making your decision.

 

[Bones0]

Yes. This is what allows for moonwalks to exist.

Okay, thanks, that's what I thought. Do you happen to know the first angle that results in suboptimal speed? I'm wondering if I ever gimp my DD game by not pressing the stick horizontally. I don't know if the first non-horizontal angle is likely to be inputted accidentally because of slightly imperfect left-right motions.