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Japan already has a Tier list

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Arbitrary dates are irrational.Your intuition is lacking. It is easy to grasp the fundamental power of a character by mere observation barring any radical metagame changes.
A past tier list? Care to elaborate? Their conclusions might not be as far-fetched as you think.Why say you so? How does that discredit it, merely because you say so? Ganondorf's neutral is extremely laggy, and he has no safe options on the utterly ridiculous shield of Smash 4.You must view each game in isolation to remove the conception of Marth being an inherently good and well designed character. He just might not be in Smash 4.Why so? Personally, I may agree with you, but your analysis is lacking. Also, you fall into the same error as Shen above. The intellect is capable, with the requisite conditioning from distinguishing like things and observation, to have an intuitive sense of which characters maybe good or bad. Question yourself. Historicism is lacking as well, in that it does not analyze the why of Zelda being so high in early SSBM tier lists, nor does it analyze the metagame's progression or the characteristics of the game itself, it merely takes an event and draws a silly conclusion about it based on 'trend'.
Why? Just as many above you, your analysis is lacking. Please elaborate.This is a far more honest response to the tier list. This one makes no pretense as to suggest that tier lists aren't valid, just that they do not affect his opinion of things.Why is it premature? Because it is set before some vague time you have in mind? When you personally feel that it is mature enough to be evaluated? Surely there are many more, as shown by this tier list, which trust that they know the course of its maturation well enough to deliver an early tier list as such. Just as well, thank you for acknowledging that anecdotal evidence of seeing good characters does not constitute a worthy point.As of now, we don't know the disposition or reasoning of the Japanese people as to their placements in general. Personally, I will vouch for Yoshi in that he has excellent aerial mobility, little landing lag, strong range and great combo ability. Additionally, he has a projectile and has a fast jab which comboes into up-smash. His pressure is unreal, and almost all of his options are safe to execute at nearly any time. Save his grab being the only major flaw, which is a large detriment in this shield heavy game, but the safeness of his attacks in general and ease of following up with a d-tilt or some such for a shield poke makes it matter not as much.
You are right in one sense. It's not an 'absolute' representation of their maximal power. Such is not the purpose of a tier list anyways. If it was geared towards a Tool Assisted Superplay or some such, then it might be trying to do that, but even then matters of 'taste' and the style of the person doing the TAS and what the goal is supposed to be in a TAS. Again, as above, why is it too early? If you just 'feel' as if it's too early, you have to acknowledge that there are some who do not. It is good that you have determination, though, but do not be stubborn to the point where you might refuse to accept their inferiority if it turns out that way.
Why? Please review the above.
Anecdotal evidence means little. One must analyze and cast doubt upon their own initial conclusions. Surely, what you have done is intuitive reasoning, yet you must see that you might be as far from the mark as they, since you yourself have implicitly formed an ordinal ranking of who is better or who is worse. Once again, it is good that you have this determination, but do not let it blind you if it turns out said characters truly are bad.
Why? You can review the above to anticipate my response to your response if you so choose.
This is. . . very honest of you, D-idara. Thank you.
You have absolutely no frame of reference for their skill. Your 'logic' boils down to 'this person's analysis differs from mine, therefore this person is a scrub and they are dumb', which is full of errors. Elaborate.
Thank you for being honest and actually providing analysis. :D
Again, we see the same error as above so many times. I won't repeat myself, since I trust that you will know what I mean if you read the other stuff in my post.
bruh
youre just a scroob il rekt u 1v1 me irl
This is quite the assumption. It ignores many other possible arguments implicit to the tier's reasoning.This is another type of response I like. The tone implies the admission there may be some merit to the tier list instead of just a blank denial and ridicule.



WHY

This is many of the above responses with some good qualifications. First, it casts a healthy dose of caution on all rankings. Then, it says that some thing doesn't make sense to the writer, rather than making no sense to anyone.
It got moderated because the thread title was sensationalist and emotional, along with a lot of the responses. Again, as the many others above, WHY is it too early? There is nothing you propose beyond your intuitive feeling that it is too early, which could be horribly misguided. One IMO doesn't satisfy the rest of blank pronouncements made. You have an internal, implicit tier list, yet you do not acknowledge that yours could be the less accurate in the general sense.
Bruh. Try to reason it out. Why do you think that they think these things? Give them the benefit of the doubt.
No, he's 'understood' in the sense we know how much each stance affects what stat. But, he is complex, as you say, in that the application of said stances is difficult at present since nobody has advanced the use to a point where people can clearly see how more effectively to use them.






Alright, everyone, here's the deal. Every single person in this thread has an implied tier list. It can be called 'subconsciously made', or whatever, but in the very fact that anyone says that 'this character is better than that', they rank one above the other. And it is NECESSARY by definition of a 'tier list' that it is merely another one of these lists or rankings. Grant that it may be a more 'valid' one in that those with greater knowledge of the game may have collaborated to form this.
Why do you think anyone needs to provide you with an in-depth character analysis that supports their opinion? Just as the creators of this tier list are entitled to their power of observation, so is everyone else here. A mere list in and of itself inherently lacks in-depth analysis as a part of its content to begin with.

Your logic on the flexibility of a tier lists creation also pre-dates that of more modern, scientifically-based reasoning. Generally, when you want to prove something you have ample data to provide (just as you're obnoxiously requesting from every user present). One single tournament isn't a viable data source to compile a consistency. It's like missing one hoop or one pitch and saying that player has a 0% shot/batting average. A tier list is meant to implicate a characters potential and tournament viability, a very important thing, so saying that it's too early is absolutely a viable and logical thing to assert. Simply because it is.

This post, as long and well articulated as it reads, is pretentious and full of inapplicable, rhetorical questions.
 
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Zage

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guys relax its just a list. There is going to be a WORST character even if he/she doesn't feel bad, but the list is RELATIVE TO THE REST OF THE CHARACTERS. If the worst character doesn't feel bad, then man they did a good job balancing the game. But the game is young so none of us should even have a good feel and understanding of every single character and MU.
Thank you. This needed to be said.
 

FlamePikaYoshi

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...this is not my list this is the actual list -_-
jeez think before you say something XxBHunterxX
 
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the8thark

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...this is not my list this is the actual list -_-
jeez think before you say something
It can't be "the list" as any list made up now would be totally subjective as to whoever same up with the list. And there has not been enough legit tournaments to make a list based in that yet.
 

FlamePikaYoshi

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:4palutena: isn't nearly bottom. :rosalina: and :4yoshi: are top for sure, I feel like you could put the rest anywhere and still be right. The balance in this smash is close enough. Rosa needs to get nerfed for serious though.
:rosalina:is OP, true. She has Luma, which can block projectiles, grabs, some attacks, etc. and also has great recovery. Heck, she can also make projectiles USELESS with her Down-B:GCD::GCB: and her Neutral-B:GCB: can make Luma wander on its own and attack separately at a long range! :4yoshi: is one of my fav characters in all of Smash (actually my #1 fav), so I love the fact he finally gets to be Top Tier! :4palutena:.... why is she at the bottom of the list? I mean, WTF?! She has a great Neutral-B:GCB:, a projectile reflector (Side-B:GCL::GCR::GCB: I think), pretty good recovery, a counter, a broken as f*** Up Smash:GCCU:, great Air Game and combos, and more! She is WAY too good to be at the bottom of the list.
 

FlamePikaYoshi

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It can't be "the list" as any list made up now would be totally subjective as to whoever same up with the list. And there has not been enough legit tournaments to make a list based in that yet.
This is why I hate this list...not enough legit tournaments! Tier lists need time to make. They aren't made up of like, one or two tournaments. You need good reasons to make a certain character high tier or low tier. Some characters are low on the list for terrible reasons or for no reason at all. Take:4shulk: for example. He should've been pretty high on the list. His Neutral-B:GCB:, Monado Arts, can help him in battle, and also gives him lots of options. The Jump art helps recovery. The Speed art makes a good approach without having to actually use a move, which is better than moves like Ike's Quick Draw. The Shield art helps defense. The Buster art helps combos and damage building, which is great. Finally, the Smash art makes his attacks stronger. WAY stronger. His attacks are already pretty fast, too. I find :4shulk:to have good recovery, combos, air game, smashes, jab, etc., so there is NO REASON he should've been E Tier. Now, I'm not a pro, but I do know this stuff. What you're saying does make sense, though. :)
 
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Jaedrik

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Why do you think anyone needs to provide you with an in-depth character analysis that supports their opinion? Just as the creators of this tier list are entitled to their power of observation, so is everyone else here. A mere list in and of itself inherently lacks in-depth analysis as a part of its content to begin with.

Your logic on the flexibility of a tier lists creation also pre-dates that of more modern, scientifically-based reasoning. Generally, when you want to prove something you have ample data to provide (just as you're obnoxiously requesting from every user present). One single tournament isn't a viable data source to compile a consistency. It's like missing one hoop or one pitch and saying that player has a 0% shot/batting average. A tier list is meant to implicate a characters potential and tournament viability, a very important thing, so saying that it's too early is absolutely a viable and logical thing to assert. Simply because it is.

This post, as long and well articulated as it reads, is pretentious and full of inapplicable, rhetorical questions.
I believe you are mistaken. What I am doing is pointing out the 'pretensions' they make, the ways they say things, and the implications those modes of thought have that are contradictory. I grant that they have the reasoning behind their assertions, but they certainly don't present it in any way which makes implicitly consistent sense. This is why I quoted a few examples of good posts and showed why I thought they were good, consistent, and sensible, in that they disagreed yet had the proper dispositions and distinctions about things. I do not think them or you dishonest, I give the benefit of the doubt in taking for granted that you and them are in error instead.

This is probably a discussion for the debate hall subforum, but suffice to say that I label myself as a 'scholastic', and I'm betting you know this (intuitively, at least, probably not through that label), and so it seems that your point about "modern, scientifically-based reasoning" (which I label as 'logical positivism') isn't really directed so much at me as it is to anyone who might read your post. What's following is pretty much that, scholasticism vs positivism.

It doesn't seem that depth or shallowness is an inherent feature of lists at all. It's obvious that a list is the creation of analysis, that is analysis of some sort is a prerequisite, save for a completely random list, but even that implies the purpose of being random, in which case they are 'analysed' as 'man whatever just put them wherever'. With analysis itself is either depth or shallowness, but not with a list itself.

You make the same mistake, again, as the others have. Data is not simply the quantitative numeric expression of some amount of wins. The reason it is illogical to apply strict 'wins' is because one must decide on an arbitrary quality of 'sufficiency'. It's as if they take a bunch of balloons and say 'okay if 43 out of 100 pop we can't say that they pop regularly but if 51 out of 100 we can say it'. Sure, that's a majority, but 'regularly' is a qualitative expression, not a quantitative expression, by its very nature.
Data is also understood as in qualitative data. Insofar as we are able to grasp the strengths and weaknesses of characters and are able to compare these things to the strengths and weaknesses of other characters, we gather qualitative information and can make logical conclusions that 'this character is generally better than that character'. What I assert is that there is such a thing as 'better', and that we can grasp the things that make one better than another by observation and using reason on the things we observe.
For example, we can observe that Ganondorf lacks significantly on options that are safe to attack shields with, and his dash grab is horrible, therefore we can conclude that he is worse than a character who can more admirably deal with shields if they have a comparable or superior game otherwise (all other things being equal, that is).

To quote Fritz Machlup, this seems to be the error you are making in reference to 'tournament wins':
"Metromania, stemming from a fixation on the dogma that 'science is measurement,' takes the form of attempts to measure everything however faintly connected with the subject under investigation and to imagine the resulting figures to be relevant, and of urgent claims that any proposition not amenable to quantitative verification be rejected as 'unscientific.' The questions of the stability of computed numerical relations and of their historical relativity are usually ignored and ever-new statistical figures for different or longer time intervals are produced in order to devise 'corrected' parameters or coefficients "explaining" the measured magnitudes of social reality." source (It's a great read if you want to get into my head about the subject at hand. And, as Machlup says, the data they produce is certainly useful or helpful in a lot of ways, but their views are, again, in error.)

It's the great debate between "Match-up based tier lists", which I am a proponent of, and "Win/loss based tier lists". We here in the Smash community have had both, usually the result of BR voting, and even hybrids of the two.
 
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Ussi

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@ FlamePikaYoshi FlamePikaYoshi your argument is just your opinion. These statements just go in circles getting nothing done.

Like in brawl, Ganondorf had a top tier moves in uair and flame choke, (side B) but he could never effectively use it due to his trash mobility and vulnerability to being camped. Just because a character has a few good moves on paper, doesn't mean he can use them effectively in practice.
 
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XxBHunterxX

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...this is not my list this is the actual list -_-
jeez think before you say something XxBHunterxX
I was referring to the comments you were making towards the list being wrong, unless you copied and pasted that too (i dont know why you would)
 

ArcDawn

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The list feels like they didn't really try to play the characters they initially felt were bad. Hopefully this won't deter players from playing the so called low tier.
 

kunimitsu877

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A Tier:

(Top) Sheik, Yoshi, Rosalina
(Bottom) Greninja, Zero Suit Samus

B Tier:

(Top) Bowser, Lucario
(Middle) Sonic, Fox, Wario
(Bottom) Duck Hunt Duo

C Tier:

(Top) Captain Falcon, Diddy Kong, Pit, Dark Pit, Little Mac
(Middle) Pac-Man, Peach, Villager
(Bottom) Bowser Jr., Mario, Meta Knight

D Tier:

(Top) Toon Link, Pikachu, Marth, Donkey Kong, R.O.B.
(Middle) King Dedede, Dr. Mario, Charizard, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucina, Jigglypuff, Olimar, Mega Man, Robin
(Bottom) Link, Zelda, Falco, Ness

E Tier:

(Top) Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, Luigi, Kirby, Ike, Shulk
(Bottom) Ganondorf, Palutena


Apparently Japan already has a tier list for Smash 4. I think it is pretty bad... what about you, though?
a huge reason i dont follow tier lists(of any kind )is because most of the time their hugely inaccurate very opinion based and just well confusing because according to melees tier list zelda is better than roy mewtwo and game and watch and according to brawl olimar is better than pikachu ike and lucario again just examples why i dont like tier lists
 

SamuraiPanda

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Early tier lists tend to have decent accuracy near the top but anything lower usually changes quite a bit. Plus, the top always has room for more in early lists like this.
 

kunimitsu877

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Early tier lists tend to have decent accuracy near the top but anything lower usually changes quite a bit. Plus, the top always has room for more in early lists like this.
perhaps but again the vast majority of tier are inaccurate i agree with brawls 1st place pick because meta knight is broken or melees because pichu is actually bad but like i said tier lists are just a subject i get real passionate about to say why i disagree with them
 

LunarWingCloud

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Keep in mind Japan's tier lists can vary to ours. A few characters are several places different between the two tier lists in Brawl. In the most extreme case, Pikachu is 8th in international Brawl tier list, 22nd in Japanese list. Various other characters are in different places, because playstyles and rulesets vary.
 

Joe73191

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Rosalina, Robin, Bowser, Zero Suit Samus, Lucario, Duck Hunt Dog and maybe Yoshi are the best characters so far from what I can tell.
 

GdspdUblkprzdnt

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I don't have an in depth knowledge of every single character but this feels on the money around the top. Shulk is a huge variable though and is probably the most likely to go up. That being said, I feel that even Ganondorf has felt viable to me so if this list is accurate, there's a good chance we have reached SS64 caliber balance.
 

Nocally

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Pikachu was 22nd on the Japanese brawl tier list, which automatically makes the Japanese wrong on Pikachu´s placement this time around wrong too. (completely biased though)
 

Xcano

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If you're looking to just win, this list will help, but only for a few days. Lists change a whole lot in a very quick timespan soon after release.
 

Jaedrik

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Hey, it's this old thread again!

I wonder if anyone changed their views. I hope they have.
 

Substitution

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Oh I remember this one! Ah memories, back when hype was still at an all-time high.

But in terms of the topic at hand, I'll just stick to the characters I enjoy playing.
And that's really it in the end, a tier list at it's core shouldn't dictate who you should play. Sure, some characters are objectively better than others I get that, but I don't see why that means I should ditch a main all because a list told me they sucked.
 
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