Is the CPU's AI any better in 3.5?

[ChaosQualm]

I didn't beat them doing anything gimmicky though. Unless you count edge guarding and whiff punishing the constant barrage of Up Smashes as being gimmicky. I agree they now have some serious shield pressure and already complimented KingClubber on the vast improvements made to them. I was just suggesting further improvements.

 

[KingClubber]

I do have one selfish request. Please in some future update make a 20XX Hax Fox build. I really don't care about the edges. I understand that it's extremely hard to fix recoveries and edge shenanigans. But if you could somehow make Fox have the most insane 20XX neutral game, I would bow to your feat. Is it possible to have Fox doubleshine-JC turn around grab when hit confirm on shield?

Well that's another thing that didn't make it into 3.5. LvL dependent playstyles so if i wanted i could have.

lvl.9 m2k/kels fox
lvl.8 Hax Fox

the hard part is mimicking play styles takes a lot of time when gathering notes on the players little tricks and all the testing.

 

[ChaosQualm]

I'm surprised the new Fox/Falco AI wasn't mentioned in the patch notes or anywhere other than here as far as I know. It might be something you could ask them to list next time.

 

[dude1286]

This should have made into the patch notes with how awesome it is. If you want to, I can try and get some footage of me playing the two AIs later this week. I'm a Ganondorf user, so I know the matchup is not in my favor according to previous metas, but I can usually hold my own against the AI and have only flat out lost a couple times. Fox does get hit by Wizard's Foot a little too much IMO, Falco doesn't have to worry about it due to his lasers getting through. It would be awesome to start seeing other characters get this treatment in the future.

 

[KingClubber]

I'm surprised the new Fox/Falco AI wasn't mentioned in the patch notes or anywhere other than here as far as I know. It might be something you could ask them to list next time.

Never, I care not for acknowledgement but i do appreciate the thanks, AI is very unimportant. No one in the PMDT would take this up unless something seriously needed to be done.

I can try and get some footage of me playing the two AIs later this week.

No need, but thanks for offering.

 

[dude1286]

Just trying to see if I can help you out with more than just this text. Now that the only other person who plays this game has moved out, I have to play the AI to get in some practice and would love to help you out. Too bad I have no AI programming knowledge.

 

[Foo]

I've noticed a problem with the AI where it is exceptionally predictable, though. (with fox, at least. Haven't tried falco) He will spam short hop lasers until I come close enough. If I catch him at the right moment, he will upsmash, every time. Otherwise, he shorthop dair or nairs. Either way, all I have to do is run up to him and shield. If he upsmashes, just shield grab if he pressures me, try to reset to neutral.

I think it'd be better if the AI didn't spam lasers, it would be far less predictable if it played aggressively.

 

[KingClubber]

Just trying to see if I can help you out with more than just this text.

No worries

I've noticed a problem with the AI where it is exceptionally predictable

Your only human

I think it'd be better if the AI didn't spam lasers, it would be far less predictable if it played aggressively.

youtube.com/watch?v=CcVkxA1gVvU#t=166

he spams shdl based off m2k, the usmash is based off kels.

the laser baits, the usmash punishes

 

[Foo]

Your only human



youtube.com/watch?v=CcVkxA1gVvU#t=80

Lazor camping works well if you are a very smart player like m2k, but bots aren't m2k. If the bot lazor camps, you get to choose the engagment. Since bots will do the same thing every single time an identical situation is presented to it, you can easily exploit it.

I understand that human players will always have that advantage over AI, but lazor camping makes it even easier than otherwise. The lucas computer in 3.0 was probably the hardest one because it didn't let you reset to neutral, it was constantly aggro. If the AI is aggressive, it will be nearly impossible to force it into one situation over and over again.

I'm not trying to be pointlessly critical, I'm just giving a suggestion on how to make it harder.




(laser camping is boring anyway)

 

[KingClubber]

aggro.

I think your missing the point.
This is a campy fox, m2k and kels are both fox players that play campy

If the ledge mechanics hadn't been changed he'd infinite side-b stall as well (which was what he did before the change)

 

[ChaosQualm]

Yeah I've been saying it during the whole thread. That Fox umashes way too much once you get close enough. I don't even shield grab anymore. I just wave dash back once or twice so he misses and get a bigger punish (often a counter fsmash). This Fox has a ton of potential don't get me wrong, but it needs to mix it up a lot more.

I mean I get the concept. Lasers force you to approach and then when you go in too hard you get up Smashed. Sounds good in theory but if I know it's coming every time there's a lot of ways to effectively punish it. It's only strong when done occasionally and when you've been forced to respect the Fox's other options.

 

[KingClubber]

that is understandable, but realize that the fix to this is simple and would lead to more camping.

 

[ChaosQualm]

I don't mind the camping but I don't think that's the only fix.

For instance, say if it were to go for grabs to uairs more or just the great shield pressure it already does if you sit in shield a lot. That would deter the above mentioned strategy. Then players might start to pick more risky options like rolling and jumping and THAT'S when the Fox might decide to punish with up Smash.

Or in my case, say I wavedash back a lot to bait the up smashes (and possible dash grabs). It could slowly push me to the end of the stage through movement/pressure alone and then start going for these mixups when I no longer have room to do this.

Once again, I commend the job you've already done. They are fun and refreshing to play against but there is still a lot of improvements that could be done to make them as human-like/adaptive as possible. I would also love to see this on other characters.

 

[KingClubber]

omg....sigh

i'm done, next subject please.

 

[Terotrous]

I just did about 15 random vs random matches vs level 9 AI and won all but 1 (which I lost due to an SD), but the AI did seem noticeably tougher.

Either that or I just can't play this game at all any more because of Smash 4. Could be a bit of both.

 

[GFooChombey]

Never, I care not for acknowledgement but i do appreciate the thanks, AI is very unimportant. No one in the PMDT would take this up unless something seriously needed to be done.

I'm very glad you're doing this. I do a lot of tech practice on CPUs and having a sense of real pressure makes me think a lot differently. I'm hoping all of the AI can reach this level, if not greater in the future. You rock, man.

 

[Foo]

I think your missing the point.
This is a campy fox, m2k and kels are both fox players that play campy

If the ledge mechanics hadn't been changed he'd infinite side-b stall as well (which was what he did before the change)

...and? Yes, the fox lazor camps, but why does it have to? It applies pressure really well (accept for downsmashing too much). I'd imagine simply removing the lazor camping from the AI would make it really tricky to beat.

Maybe I missed something. Why on earth does it have to camp like m2k? (even though he doesn't camp that much anyway, only when he is ahead and his opponent wants him to approach. He used to just play runaway fox, but he has mostly stopped doing that)

 

[muleet]

I'm playing against Fox and Falco cpus in the stamina mode without blastzone, and with knockback, and it's very very fun, i'm learning how to play betterly (at my humble level). Playing without blastzone prevent them from SDing, so they're always a threat, even when they fell off from the stage. Thank you for these AI, KingClubber.
I'm also trying not to exploit their flaws, like if you counter all the time with marth, it's easy to kill them, but it has no point for me. In their combat style they propose a good way to learn stuff.

 

[KingClubber]

...and? Yes, the fox lazor camps, but why does it have to? It applies pressure really well (accept for downsmashing too much). I'd imagine simply removing the lazor camping from the AI would make it really tricky to beat.

Maybe I missed something. Why on earth does it have to camp like m2k? (even though he doesn't camp that much anyway, only when he is ahead and his opponent wants him to approach. He used to just play runaway fox, but he has mostly stopped doing that)

The whole point is this ai was programmed by me to be campy, period. I asked around the PMDT and was told m2k was a good example of a campy fox. There was no intent into making him aggro at all. This fox want you to approach and wants to punish you for doing so. If i would do any changes to this, it would be only more options than just usmash. Like nair or running away, besides if you guys where reading this thread you mightn't have read this.

Well that's another thing that didn't make it into 3.5. LvL dependent playstyles so if i wanted i could have.

lvl.9 m2k/kels fox
lvl.8 Hax Fox

the hard part is mimicking play styles takes a lot of time when gathering notes on the players little tricks and all the testing.

This means i could have many types of play styles for each character.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

KingClubber, I've always thought that your work on the AI is super impressive, and I'm loving the fox/falco CPUs in 3.5. The AI in PM is the best of any Smash game, by far, and a lot of people who don't have many fellow Smashers to play with really appreciate all the work you've done.

Also, I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but I noticed that Link sometimes pulls out his ocarina after a KO, but never cancels it, so he's stuck until the player hits him with something. Not a big deal since you can just jab him, but I just thought you should know if you didn't already.

 

[DraconisMarch]

If you think the ai in 3.02 was piss, then you should've seen pre-3.0 ai.
Anyway, kingclubber is the only pmdt working on the ai, and he's certainly constantly improving upon them, so it's safe to say they'll be better.

They still air dodge off the ledge at random, so no improvements on that front.

My problem with AI has always been that they're only good because they can instantly read your inputs--not because they know actual skill-intensive mechanics. Their "omniscience" makes them frustrating for me to play against. I don't have very much fun against them.

 

[Phoenix502]

first off, that Fox and Falco are crazy, and as I've been told Fox seems to mimic M2K to a degree... would it be appropriate, by this point, to call a level 9 Fox Mew2Bot? (be funny if someone from VGBC pointed this out on stream at some point)

i heard you are still working on a Roy AI that imitates Sethlon that didn't make it into the initial release... so I suppose I'll ask, what other players do you have in mind at the moment, and for what characters?

 

[Foo]

Dude, I'm just trying to understand WHY it needs to be campy. You keep saying "The AI was programmed to be campy" but that doesn't answer WHY it was programmed like that. I just don't understand that.

 

[KingClubber]

heard you are still working on a Roy AI that imitates Sethlon that didn't make it into the initial release... so I suppose I'll ask, what other players do you have in mind at the moment, and for what characters?

A Mang0 fox
A M2K Marth
A PinkFresh Lucas

There are a lot, lets just leave it at that

Dude, I'm just trying to understand WHY it needs to be campy. You keep saying "The AI was programmed to be campy" but that doesn't answer WHY it was programmed like that. I just don't understand that.

There is no understanding why, it just is. If you want a aggro fox, your going to have to wait until i'm done working on everything else, or get started on it yourself. I'm completely focusing on getting everything else done and ready for what ever comes out next. Any more questions on this subject will go ignored.

 

[MewtwoX825]

Edit: disregard this post

 

[DraconisMarch]

A Mang0 fox

Who's the Falco based off?

 

[KingClubber]

Who's the Falco based off?

a bit of westballz, forward, zhu, and PP

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Good job, @ KingClubber , your work is amazing.
One question, are self-learning algorithms reachable or isn't it too far out currently?
P.S: I will try to collect everything I notice about the AI and post it in one or two weeks.

 

[KingClubber]

Good job, @ KingClubber , your work is amazing.
One question, are self-learning algorithms reachable or isn't it too far out currently?
P.S: I will try to collect everything I notice about the AI and post it in one or two weeks.

AI does not learn

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I know -,- But is it possible to change this?

 

[Deleted member]

Dude, I'm just trying to understand WHY it needs to be campy. You keep saying "The AI was programmed to be campy" but that doesn't answer WHY it was programmed like that. I just don't understand that.

I'm probably wrong, but from what I gather KingClubber here is programming specific playstyles for each level (i.e. lvl 9 is a "campy" Fox, while an 8 or 7 might be a more aggro Fox), meaning you can tackle different forms of a character at different times. Granted, it's not an ever changing style like a human, but it's still something.

If I'm wrong feel free to bash me on the head or someting @ KingClubber , great work so far though. The AI's by far the best its been in any Smash game out there so far. Are you apart of the PMDT? Or is the AI part of the mod uncared for by them and you decided to tack that on for them?

 

[KingClubber]

Yes, I am apart of the PMDT.

 

[Leafeon]

he is supposed to dash 4 frames forward and short hop then dair, but he gets to close to the ledge sometimes thus SD's

I meant when he's recovering from offstage, he'll come back with a sweetspot on the ledge, but afterwards, no airdodge or anything, just fast falls into his doom. I'll try and get a video of it later for you I guess if you want.

 

[A_Frosty_Life]

KingClubber, what kind of DI do CPU's have in 3.5? Is lvl 9 mixed or just pure survival DI?
I'm asking in case lvl 9 Fox/Falco aren't best suited for combo/edge-guarding practice.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Fox and Falco's AI is very impressive compared to all Smash AI's so far, even at a lower level. Nice job.
Just curious though, can't you make them stop shooting lasers when something like a Shine or a PSI Magnet is used?

I'm also curious about their DI too.
Since I mostly use bots to practice against moving targets, I need to know if they're tricking me into believing that certain combos are good when they could be escaped with a better DI.

Thanks for the hard work.

 

[KingClubber]

The DI does has its set of problems, its difficult to get it done just right.

And I can't answer your question cause the DI is very jumbled depending on which set had gotten updated or not on which version.

 

[IronChar]

while the AI can't react to the meta... PM programs them to behave like the current meta of top players, making fighting cpus... far from a waste of time for solid practice (despite what anyone in this community will tell you)

Fox/Falco (known melee top tiers) are absolutely crazier then they used to be- a bit show off cause the cpus can do what humans cannot.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

while the AI can't react to the meta... PM programs them to behave like the current meta of top players, making fighting cpus... far from a waste of time for solid practice (despite what anyone in this community will tell you)

Fox/Falco (known melee top tiers) are absolutely crazier then they used to be- a bit show off cause the cpus can do what humans cannot.

That's a bit unreasonable. Do you know how fast the meta shifts? What could be potentially useful is general templates for certain styles like "Spacing Marth" or "Aggressive Marth" so that players can adapt to certain common play styles.

Too bad that every time that the AI tries to Air Dodge defensively, they SD.

 

[IronChar]

Too bad that every time that the AI tries to Air Dodge defensively, they SD.

ahh, this is true. must be brawl ingrained in them

 

[5eb]

I believe it'll be getting better which each progressive patch.