Is the CPU's AI any better in 3.5?

[sWiTcHeRoO [疾~斬]]

There isn't a scene for Smash where I live, so all I can do is play against CPUs for the fun of it. I'm wondering if they were one of the things the team worked on for this update, as they weren't a challenge in 3.2 and it would be great if they were remotely smart and tough to play against in this new update to keep me even more occupied with the game.

I apologize if this is in the wrong section.

 

[Xermo]

If you think the ai in 3.02 was piss, then you should've seen pre-3.0 ai.
Anyway, kingclubber is the only pmdt working on the ai, and he's certainly constantly improving upon them, so it's safe to say they'll be better.

 

[KingClubber]

There isn't a scene for Smash where I live, so all I can do is play against CPUs for the fun of it. I'm wondering if they were one of the things the team worked on for this update, as they weren't a challenge in 3.2 and it would be great if they were remotely smart and tough to play against in this new update to keep me even more occupied with the game.

I apologize if this is in the wrong section.

Most of the ai is just 3.2 ai, i did plan on a ai overhaul but things didn't go as planned and nothing was ready other than projects i worked on personally, while the ai in 3.2 isn't great its still better then anything you'd get from other smash games which isn't saying a lot.

So your getting two things this update a custom fox and falco ai both which are based off real players but they SD a lot because they will go out of their way to get to you because coding edge guarding and keeping them from killing themselves seems impossible.

so getting this and a falco that does falco things
http://www.gfycat.com/VigorousAfraidBlacklab

 

[Leafeon]

Most of the ai is just 3.2 ai, i did plan on a ai overhaul but things didn't go as planned and nothing was ready other than projects i worked on personally, while the ai in 3.2 isn't great its still better then anything you'd get from other smash games which isn't saying a lot.

So your getting two things this update a custom fox and falco ai both which are based off real players but they SD a lot because they will go out of their way to get to you because coding edge guarding and keeping them from killing themselves seems impossible.

so getting this and a falco that does falco things
http://www.gfycat.com/VigorousAfraidBlacklab

That Fox AI looks amazing, I can't wait to play it.

 

[KingClubber]

that hype will last for about 15 minutes

oh and fox has his own special ai taunt this time as well just like falco's multishine taunt

 

[sWiTcHeRoO [疾~斬]]

Most of the ai is just 3.2 ai, i did plan on a ai overhaul but things didn't go as planned and nothing was ready other than projects i worked on personally, while the ai in 3.2 isn't great its still better then anything you'd get from other smash games which isn't saying a lot.

So your getting two things this update a custom fox and falco ai both which are based off real players but they SD a lot because they will go out of their way to get to you because coding edge guarding and keeping them from killing themselves seems impossible.

so getting this and a falco that does falco things
http://www.gfycat.com/VigorousAfraidBlacklab

That Fox seems pretty good to me. So most of the cast is still the same as 3.02? Which are the minority you changed for 3.5, besides Fox and Falco? It's a shame they're not updated since they kinda sandbag and do random things, but I'll take anything that makes them decently viable over nothing.

 

[KingClubber]

Almost little to no change, i'll let you guys try out the unfinished stuff if u want but it won't be until after 3.5.

 

[Deleted member]

so getting this and a falco that does falco things
http://www.gfycat.com/VigorousAfraidBlacklab

so was it zero or m2k?

 

[KingClubber]

the fox is based off m2k/kels

The taunt it does is something kels does in a match after getting a good star KO kill

 

[KingClubber]

this was early build of the falco that didn't use lasers so i could focus on the combat

https://gfycat.com/AgileUglyBarbet

the final build in 3.5 does use lasers though, still SD's like its his job though

 

[menotyou135]

this was early build of the falco that didn't use lasers so i could focus on the combat

https://gfycat.com/AgileUglyBarbet

the final build in 3.5 does use lasers though, still SD's like its his job though

Any chance for a Sethlon Roy AI for 3.51?

 

[KingClubber]

haha, yeah that was a Sethlon Roy. but its not done. Doesn't sd so much like the spacies though. but yes if there is a 3.5.1 i'll add him.

 

[sWiTcHeRoO [疾~斬]]

If you keep working and upgrading the AI even before they release an update after 3.5, please share it! Again, it's all I have to play against in Project M due to lacking anyone to play with, so I'm willing to settle for whatever you work on here. It's good to see this wasn't entirely ignored and were instead worked on using good players as a base of all things.

 

[KingClubber]

tried that before, never works out.

but i'll try

 

[Draco_The]

@ KingClubber Keep up the good work pal!

 

[Anonistry]

This is actually really freaking genius. I mean, yeah, its still "pre-programmed" but if that is the limitation, might as well program the best, right? Wish I had a cookie to give.

 

[KingClubber]

well i'll show aka give u guys a taste of what i was working on but the most showing one needs the 3.5 update that's why ya gotta wait no point otherwise.

 

[KingClubber]

so hows that fox and falco?

 

[dude1286]

The Fox and Falco AI are amazing IMO. For once it is actually enjoyable to play them. There is a bug when playing AI on Distant Planet though, it happened with both Sonic and Ike but not Pit. They would just fall to their death if they were right underneath the edge of the top leaves. Pit's AI may break that suicide due to having more than two jumps, but I would need to look at it again to see if it happened with any of the other AI.

 

[ChaosQualm]

Fox and Falco are okay I just played them. I still managed to 2 stock both though and I'm still relatively bad at PM. How did everyone else do vs them so far?

The problem is as it's been said, they are horrible at recovering. Very easy to gimp. I was Falco myself and managed to spike/edge hog them a lot. On stage they are very technical, fast and flashy (I wish I could move like that lol). But even then they don't exactly play safe. They'll do non-spaced aerials on shield that are easy to shield grab and fish hard for kills. Sometimes the Fox AI will keep doing up Smash even when you aren't at kill percent.

 

[KingClubber]

The Fox and Falco AI are amazing IMO. For once it is actually enjoyable to play them. There is a bug when playing AI on Distant Planet though, it happened with both Sonic and Ike but not Pit. They would just fall to their death if they were right underneath the edge of the top leaves. Pit's AI may break that suicide due to having more than two jumps, but I would need to look at it again to see if it happened with any of the other AI.

Noted.

Fox and Falco are okay I just played them. I still managed to 2 stock both though and I'm still relatively bad at PM. How did everyone else do vs them so far?

The problem is as it's been said, they are horrible at recovering. Very easy to gimp. I was Falco myself and managed to spike them a lot. On stage they are very technical, fast and flashy (I wish I could move like that lol). But even then they don't exactly play safe. They'll do non-spaced aerials on shield that are easy to shield grab and fish hard for kills. Sometimes the Fox AI will keep doing up Smash even when you aren't at kill percent.

Expected, but fixable.

 

[ChaosQualm]

For Falco it's kind of the opposite it seems. He won't take guaranteed kill setups when he has them. He'll often just dair into nothing. I just survived to 200 percent in the mirror match because of this lol. But the CPU is very technical, I cannot stress this enough. A lot of flasy shine combos.

Edit:

Oh and the Falco AI does seem to kill itself a lot. Especially when edge guarding.

 

[KingClubber]

For Falco it's kind of the opposite it seems. He won't take guaranteed kill setups when he has them. He'll often just dair into nothing. I just survived to 200 percent in the mirror match because of this lol. But the CPU is very technical, I cannot stress this enough. A lot of flasy shine combos.

Yes, that is a problem.

 

[ChaosQualm]

But good job overall. I'm impressed you guys managed to come this far with their AI. As far as their neutral game goes it definitely does look like you are facing a spacies main at times (albeit not the smartest one).

One nice thing about Fox constantly doing running up smashes is it's good practice on how to optimally punish such tactics as none of the other CPUs will really do this.

 

[Odinx]

Welp I just got 4-stocked by both of them. There isn't really a scene where I live either so thanks for giving me something to practice with. lol

 

[KingClubber]

okay as promised here something i was working on but didn't make it into 3.5

Platdashing & Wavelanding

This only works on battlefield and with Falco if you try it on any other stage it doesn't work.

just drag the projectm folder onto the sd card and overwrite everything (might want to copy your falco files before hand)

 

[ChaosQualm]

okay as promised here something i was working on but didn't make it into 3.5

Platdashing & Wavelanding

This only works on battlefield and with Falco if you try it on any other stage it doesn't work.

just drag the projectm folder onto the sd card and overwrite everything (might want to copy your falco files before hand)

If I might make some suggestions for Fox for the next release:

-Drill into waveshines when confirmed to hit (into upsmashes/more waveshines on characters where it's possible), Fox will often do some nice SH dairs/shine pressure now but not much after
-up throw into uair for kills, haven't even seen this attempted once
-occasionally shine offstage for gimps

I have no idea how hard any of this is to implement though. But it would go a long way into making the Fox AI much more challenging.

 

[Kraatu]

I just passed here to express my gratitude of your hardwork on making these AI better. The fox and falco left me stunned by their technical play, even though I could find breaches in their AI. Damn those fox Up smash punishes. They are meaaaan.

It seems also that the CPUs are not wavedashing to death as they did before. Nice work.
Helps a lot someone that usually plays alone.

EDIT: I'm a member since 2007 and only posted two messages. One of them was this one. That's how grateful I am!

 

[ChaosQualm]

A couple more things I've noticed now.

It turns out Fox does waveshine combo provided you play a character where it works. He had a pretty long one going on me when I was Falcon.

Also for some reason during a tech chase Fox always stays in place and you can get a jab reset. As Falco after a downthrow I would jab and it'd work every time.

 

[Zoa]

Thanks again, KingClubber. I'm having a blast against Fox and Falco.

 

[KingClubber]

I just passed here to express my gratitude of your hardwork on making these AI better. The fox and falco left me stunned by their technical play, even though I could find breaches in their AI. Damn those fox Up smash punishes. They are meaaaan.

It seems also that the CPUs are not wavedashing to death as they did before. Nice work.
Helps a lot someone that usually plays alone.

EDIT: I'm a member since 2007 and only posted two messages. One of them was this one. That's how grateful I am!

I am pleased

A couple more things I've noticed now.

It turns out Fox does waveshine combo provided you play a character where it works. He had a pretty long one going on me when I was Falcon.

Also for some reason during a tech chase Fox always stays in place and you can get a jab reset. As Falco after a downthrow I would jab and it'd work every time.

getting jab reset stuff to work is pretty hard, but i'll give it a shot

Thanks again, KingClubber. I'm having a blast against Fox and Falco.

your welcome

 

[sWiTcHeRoO [疾~斬]]

Fox absolutely destroyed me 3 times in a row, every other match has been super close with him. Falco is challenging as well, though he tends to kill himself with dairs near the edge.

Like others have said, characters sometimes just keep falling to their deaths in Distant Planet, and have a tendency to just try to stand on top of Randall in both Yoshi stages. On Story, when Randall is around they try to get on it and usually die, while on Island (Brawl), they try to land on either ghost they're closest to, even though he's not even land-able just yet, so they just fall to their deaths.

Pretty impressed and content with the AI overall, though. Definitely better than they used to be.

 

[Lopson]

Yo KingClubber, your new Fox is pretty great. Only thing I'm not too fond of is its persistence on firing lasers at the opposite direction of its target. Other than that, it's fantastic!

You said a few posts back in this topic that you're still having issues with getting the AI to stop SD itself. What information does the AI have access to? Is it not possible to get them to check coordinates, calculate trajectories, you know, generate stuff with which you can get some decision-making algorithms going? What tools are at your disposal to program these AIs? I'm really curious as to how you're creating these!

 

[ChaosQualm]

Yeah it's all up you what you want to do. I'm just letting you know the notable exploits I found so far.

Anyway you guys seem to having much more trouble vs them compared to regular CPUs than me even though I really don't think I'm very good at PM (hard to say but I haven't faced any humans yet) and I tend to 2 stock them. So I wonder if the characters I'm using vs the Fox/Falco AI (mainly Falco and Marth) just cheese them out.

Should I try facing them vs someone else? Who do you guys recommend?

 

[KingClubber]

Like others have said, characters sometimes just keep falling to their deaths in Distant Planet, and have a tendency to just try to stand on top of Randall in both Yoshi stages. On Story, when Randall is around they try to get on it and usually die, while on Island (Brawl), they try to land on either ghost they're closest to, even though he's not even land-able just yet, so they just fall to their deaths./quote]

I heard of this a few times now, but it never happens when i'm playing or testing

Only thing I'm not too fond of is its persistence on firing lasers at the opposite direction of its target.

?_?

You said a few posts back in this topic that you're still having issues with getting the AI to stop SD itself. What information does the AI have access to? Is it not possible to get them to check coordinates, calculate trajectories, you know, generate stuff with which you can get some decision-making algorithms going? What tools are at your disposal to program these AIs? I'm really curious as to how you're creating these!

I would usually post info your not going to care for but this time i'm not just know "I Got This."

 

[QuickLava]

Bravo for that Fox/Falco AI, it's an immeasurable improvement on their respective 3.02 counterparts. There are of course things that could be improved (namely making Falco actually go for the spike in the right instances), but it's still a lot of fun to play against. If you manage to make every character even this good, we'll be in for one hell of a time playing against them all. Great Job, Lord Clubber.

 

[KingClubber]

Bravo for that Fox/Falco AI, it's an immeasurable improvement on their respective 3.02 counterparts. There are of course things that could be improved (namely making Falco actually go for the spike in the right instances), but it's still a lot of fun to play against. If you manage to make every character even this good, we'll be in for one hell of a time playing against them all. Great Job, Lord Clubber.

thank you for the compliments @ QuickLava

 

[Leafeon]

Hmm... when I stand near the edge and Falco gets on the ledge, he keeps ledgedropping to suicide. Is he meant to ledge jump?

 

[KingClubber]

Hmm... when I stand near the edge and Falco gets on the ledge, he keeps ledgedropping to suicide. Is he meant to ledge jump?

he is supposed to dash 4 frames forward and short hop then dair, but he gets to close to the ledge sometimes thus SD's

 

[Tugnus]

Clubber you always do an awesome job with the AI. I haven't messed around with AI since 2.5/2.6. The new Fox looks like we can practice dealing with shield pressure to a certain degree which is very important for those of us who can't make it out to tournies often.

Again, to everyone in the thread looking to improve off AI, stop judging the AI based on how much you win by (especially when you know you're doing gimmicky things to a CPU).

I do have one selfish request. Please in some future update make a 20XX Hax Fox build. I really don't care about the edges. I understand that it's extremely hard to fix recoveries and edge shenanigans. But if you could somehow make Fox have the most insane 20XX neutral game, I would bow to your feat. Is it possible to have Fox doubleshine-JC turn around grab when hit confirm on shield?