Is the brawl style of gameplay really that bad?

[Phaiyte]

Tbh that's not what I did at all.

Whether you think so or not, you did exactly that.

 

[Phaiyte]

Calamity Trigger was a mess, and Nu was literally broken, so that's an odd example. I don't blame new players for not knowing the difference between being outplayed in Melee and being in a matchup that is simply can't be won (such as anyone but Arakune or Taokaka vs Nu).

Yeah Nu was pretty awesome back in the day, ain't denying that. RIP. Although plenty of other characters really didn't have a huge problem in the Nu matchup like Carl, Ragna, Jin, and Rachel. But I still play Lambda to this day and she's pretty much right smack in the middle of the tier list now. Even good Tagers and Hakumens have a good chance against her.

 

[FirestormNeos]

Whether you think so or not, you did exactly that.

I think everyone in this room is stupider for reading that sentence.

 

[otter]

Way to put words in my mouth.

Name once, ONCE, where I said I wanted these things for the sake of "beating people 10X better than me", or "I don't want people to be rewarded for their efforts".

Not where you think I implied it.
Where I actually said it!

Where, at what point, did I say that?

Where?!

Nowhere, that's where.

Take a second look before you assume to know my motives, because right now you're running off of your own mind-set without trying to understand mine.
My goal in wanting a lower bar is so that I can personally meet the uppermost limit.
NOT FOR THE SAKE OF WINNING AGAINST PEOPLE 10X BETTER THAN ME.
FOR THE SAKE OF HAVING AN ACHIEVABLE BAR AND IMPROVING MYSELF.

I don't care about winning so much that I go out of my way to INSULT people who don't play the game I prefer.
I just want to have a goal that my own natural reflexes aren't preventing me from achieving.

Don't reply to me again until you've actually got a firm grasp of my motives and can lay off the assumptions and the insults.

I value this side of the story, because it's rare that people who feel this way are on this site or can articulate this well. Also, keep in mind that people like smashbrolink make of the vast majority of the consumer base of the series. If anything, he takes it more seriously than most players. Keep in mind that Nintendo has nothing to gain from pandering only to people that are already going to buy the game regardless, they want to expand their market. When you pander to only hightly skilled players, you end up like the FGC where there are no spectators other than fellow player. Smash is in a unique position to please EVERYBODY.

The problem is, Brawl pleases people with smashbroslink's of view at the EXPENSE of people at the top of the skill "bar". I don't think this is okay. Nintendo is capable of designing a game with that sought after tag of "easy to play, hard to master", and I think it's okay to demand that. Brawl did not deliver this. It's a **** game. If you can't see that, then there is a 99% chance it's the only game you play seriously. Melee delivered in spades. You can disagree with specific directions they took to achieve this (difficult inputs, too fast), but you can't possibly argue that castrating the overall skill bar is a healthy answer.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Also FYI a lot of casual players prefer melee to brawl (i was one of those) so that kinda nullifies the argument that brawl is better suited to casuals when that's half wrong even from THEIR opinions.

 

[Morbi]

Also FYI a lot of casual players prefer melee to brawl (i was one of those) so that kinda nullifies the argument that brawl is better suited to casuals when that's half wrong even from THEIR opinions.

I was also one of them. In my Melee days I was casual. I didn't get into the competitive scene until Brawl. SSB in general is a casual game. I mean you obviously can compete if you want to, but realistically it isn't a competitive fighting game. That is fine. I mean if I want to play a competitive fighting game I would play Street Fighter, Tekken, KoF, Skullgirls, MvC, or MK/Injustice. I do play most of those too. I like to kick back and play SSB casually.

 

[Vkrm]

What makes traditional fighting games worth playing competitively? They have robust engines that allow player skill to be the only factor that decides the outcome of a given match. So does smash. So playing it competitively makes sense.

 

[Big-Cat]

What makes traditional fighting games worth playing competitively? They have robust engines that allow player skill to be the only factor that decides the outcome of a given match. So does smash. So playing it competitively makes sense.

Balance, for one.

 

[Vkrm]

Balance, for one.

I don't know if I agree.

 

[smashbrolink]

I value this side of the story, because it's rare that people who feel this way are on this site or can articulate this well. Also, keep in mind that people like smashbrolink make of the vast majority of the consumer base of the series. If anything, he takes it more seriously than most players. Keep in mind that Nintendo has nothing to gain from pandering only to people that are already going to buy the game regardless, they want to expand their market. When you pander to only hightly skilled players, you end up like the FGC where there are no spectators other than fellow player. Smash is in a unique position to please EVERYBODY.

The problem is, Brawl pleases people with smashbroslink's of view at the EXPENSE of people at the top of the skill "bar". I don't think this is okay. Nintendo is capable of designing a game with that sought after tag of "easy to play, hard to master", and I think it's okay to demand that. Brawl did not deliver this. It's a **** game. If you can't see that, then there is a 99% chance it's the only game you play seriously. Melee delivered in spades. You can disagree with specific directions they took to achieve this (difficult inputs, too fast), but you can't possibly argue that castrating the overall skill bar is a healthy answer.

If the overall skill bar puts anyone who isn't playing with certain characters and using certain tactics at a disadvantage too high to overcome with practice alone, then I certainly feel it should be lowered a bit.
I agree that they can hit that tag of easy to play hard to master, but I do not believe, not for an instant, that Melee did it the right way.
I also do not believe for an instant that lowering that bar made Brawl a S**t game.
Tripping, crappy online, lack of hit stun and the lower speed overall of most characters[read: floatiness] made Brawl less than it could have been, but it didn't make it an example of a S**t game.

SUPERMAN 64 was a **** game.

Brawl is easily a great game, despite not pandering to the competitive community and having its fair share of flaws.
Keep in mind that I'm not saying Brawl did the job of obtaining the "tag" either. Just that I preferred its direction to Melee's overly-technical direction, because it gave me more close matches with a wider variety of people and made me think more.
This is just my personal experience with the games, mind.

 

[FirestormNeos]

If the overall skill bar puts anyone who isn't playing with certain characters and using certain tactics at a disadvantage too high to overcome with practice alone, then I certainly feel it should be lowered a bit.
I agree that they can hit that tag of easy to play hard to master, but I do not believe, not for an instant, that Melee did it the right way.
I also do not believe for an instant that lowering that bar made Brawl a S**t game.
Tripping, crappy online, lack of hit stun and the lower speed overall of most characters[read: floatiness] made Brawl less than it could have been, but it didn't make it an example of a S**t game.

SUPERMAN 64 was a **** game.

Brawl is easily a great game, despite not pandering to the competitive community and having its fair share of flaws.
Keep in mind that I'm not saying Brawl did the job of obtaining the "tag" either. Just that I preferred its direction to Melee's overly-technical direction, because it gave me more close matches with a wider variety of people and made me think more.
This is just my personal experience with the games, mind.

Your right about Superman 64, but there is such thing as a spectrum of bad games.

First you have the worst games ever (Big Rigs, E.T., etc.)
Then there's the unplayably bad games (Sonic 06, and a few others)
Next, we have Tie-In Shovelware (PS360 Green Lanturn, PS360 Battleship, etc.)
After that is the Casual nonsense (Just Dance, Everything on Kinect, and more)
Then a whole sea of mediocre games. 60% of the industry lies here (Madden, CoD, Forza Motorsport, and whatever Hipsters are banging on about these days)
And lastly, the questionably bad games. If you hate a game everyone likes, it's probably here.

So, in other words, your right.

In which case, what am I doing here?

 

[MuraRengan]

Balance, for one.

Marvel

 

[Big-Cat]

Marvel is kusoge and everyone knows it.

 

[MuraRengan]

Marvel is kusoge and everyone knows it.

Who's everybody? All the people that play it? All the tournaments that run it? All the streamers that watch it? Of all the so-called balanced fighters that people play, Marvel has maintained a higher profile in the competitive fighting scene than any of them. Even if people acknowledge that a game is bad, they'll play it if it's attractive and fun. That's the problem with games like Virtua Fighter, it's balanced, but it has no appeal and is not fun.

 

[SmashBro99]

Smash Bros is a party game. People try to make it competitive, some are silly and think melee is superior because its faster and has pro comboz. While I agree it's more fun at times to play on stages with no hazards and no items and just have a fight, no matter what you turn off and ban its a party game... Melee was faster and had wavederping and other cool tech, Brawl is slow and has tripping, but is pretty and has new stuff. I guess I'm just a casual who thinks melee is outdated and brawl is more fun (it also included Olimar, Diddy, Wolf, and Sonic, who are some of my favorite game characters), and when 4 comes out I probably wont touch Brawl anymore either.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's cool smash bros has a competitive scene (any version of it). I just think some people who totally hate on Brawl because its not Melee v2 are kinda dumb.

Also, Mahvel is great.

 

[FirestormNeos]

Fun "fact": The people who complain about Mario or CoD being "the same thing every time" are the same people who would think Brawl sucks for not being "MELEE V2."

 

[Big-Cat]

double post

 

[Big-Cat]

Who's everybody? All the people that play it? All the tournaments that run it? All the streamers that watch it? Of all the so-called balanced fighters that people play, Marvel has maintained a higher profile in the competitive fighting scene than any of them. Even if people acknowledge that a game is bad, they'll play it if it's attractive and fun. That's the problem with games like Virtua Fighter, it's balanced, but it has no appeal and is not fun.

The Japanese consider the Marvel games to be kusoge and don't take it super serious like American players. Most people consider it fun and/or broken and still play it just for lulz and for having salt mines. What helps Marvel a lot is the highly recognizable cast. Most will recognize at least a fourth of the roster or at least anyone in a Marvel movie in the last ten years. Not only that, but it's super flashy as hell with a lot of hammy lines ("I CAN'T CONTROL IT!"), and the initial learning curve is much smaller than a lot of the other active fighers.

But I digress. Virtua Fighter has several reasons why it never caught on outside of Japan. That mostly lies in the lack of marketing from Sega, an arguably exaggerated learning curve (it's easy from a technical standpoint), and that none of the characters have much in the way of a personality. Compare this to games like Street Fighter, Tekken, Smash Bros., DOA (yes, there's more than boobs), etc. where the characters are more endearing. Balance plays only a small role in the appeal of a game (from a marketing POV), but it is the main factor that encourages you to keep playing the game.

I don't know if I agree.

As far as I know, none of the big fighting games released since Brawl have had as large of a tier range as Meta Knight and Ganondorf except for maybe Marvel.

If you want my personal opinion on what makes fighting games so appealing for competitive play, it's the high level of strategy, not so much the technical skill. Of course, Smash has this, but I think what "hurts" Smash is its cast. It's the same reason why games like BlazBlue, Guilty Gear, Persona, Arcana Heart, etc. have a hard time catching on in the US. Marvel's roster is full of manly comic characters that American guys can easily relate to. Anime/Airdash games have manly characters, but Americans just don't take anime styles seriously unless it's Street Fighter, Final Fantasy, or Tekken. They take cartoony styles less seriously, hence the Animation Age Ghetto.

Then there's how the "score" of the match in a fighting game is easy to follow with health bars while Smash doesn't.

 

[otter]

Fun "fact": The people who complain about Mario or CoD being "the same thing every time" are the same people who would think Brawl sucks for not being "MELEE V2."

That's not fair. If Brawl was a good game in it's own right, most people would prefer that to MELEEV2. Yes, some people will be religiously loyal to Melee forever, but most people crave a new game to play.

Let me backtrack...I meant competitively good. Brawl is an amazing game in it's own way. Incredible soundtrack, tons of trophies, lots of cutscenes. Competitively, however, it's a clear step backwards. The average player reaches a level cap around a year or two into playing, where melee doesn't really have one.

Think about how many people starting playing the series with Brawl. Literally millions. Isn't it kind of wierd that there's only a couple of people that rose to being a respectable pro that can handle the Melee vets? There should have been a surge of one hundred players that could body M2K, but the game just doesn't teach you how to play Smash. MvC2 legends struggle to get top 8 in Marvel 3 because of the surge of new players that are hungry in the new game.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

SUPERMAN 64 was a **** game.

Superman 64 actually wasn't that bad. One of the main things people site as an issue with the game is the stupid stupid rings, that you have to fly through. However, if you play around with the options a bit, you'll notice a difficulty setting option which is set to "superman" by default. Turn that down and suddenly the infernal rings disappear. Even then it is by no means a great game, but it actually becomes playable, and even kinda fun.

Wait a second. I am on a forum, about a video game that doesn't exist yet, defending an unrelated game that came out over a decade ago and is almost universally panned as one of the worst games ever. I... I need to go reevaluate my life.

 

[FirestormNeos]

Fun Fact: For every pornography made starring Wii Fit Trainer, there is at least 1 victims of Eye Cancer.

Not including TotalBiscuit, who caught Eye Cancer while watching Microsoft's E3 Presentation.

That's not fair.

Fun Fact: "Life isn't fair" is the first thing they teach you in Conspiracy School.

If Brawl was a good game in it's own right, most people would prefer that to MELEEV2. Yes, some people will be religiously loyal to Melee forever, but most people crave a new game to play.

People who believe in majorities are fools. If we're counting majorities here, Most human beings don't even own a Wii!

Let me backtrack...I meant competitively good. Brawl is an amazing game in it's own way. Incredible soundtrack, tons of trophies, lots of cutscenes.

Competitive Gameplay is the only thing that matters to Anti-CoD Scrublords!

Competitively, however, it's a clear step backwards. The average player reaches a level cap around a year or two into playing, where melee doesn't really have one.

Which is why the dominant community here thinks that Brawl is inferior.

Seriously, Competitive Play takes up 70% of the Forums.

Think about how many people starting playing the series with Brawl. Literally millions.

If Wikipedia is to be believed...

Melee sold 7m copies
Brawl sold 10.79m copies

Wouldn't "Literally Millions" imply a wee* bit more then Three Million? HYPERBOLE: THIS FORUM HAS IT! :D

Isn't it kind of wierd that there's only a couple of people that rose to being a respectable pro that can handle the Melee vets? There should have been a surge of one hundred players that could body M2K, but the game just doesn't teach you how to play Smash. MvC2 legends struggle to get top 8 in Marvel 3 because of the surge of new players that are hungry in the new game.

(I don't think he was talking to me.)

*understatment

 

[Chiroz]

If Wikipedia is to be believed...

Melee sold 7m copies
Brawl sold 10.79m copies

Wouldn't "Literally Millions" imply a wee* bit more then Three Million? HYPERBOLE: THIS FORUM HAS IT! :D

I don't want to get into this argument so take note, I am not taking sides on the argument, but...

Literally Millions is anything above 1,999,999 as 1 person after that is considered 2 millions. How can you actually write that sentence it's so wrong in every sense of the word. Anyways, also there are many people who didn't rebuy Smash and were completely new to the game (not all 7m people who owned Melee bought Brawl). Also not every copy of smash means 1 player, a household could have 2, 3 or 4 kids, heck a father and his children could also play together. I even had 6-10 people practice with me weekly and none of them owned Brawl, that is 6-10 people for only 1 copy of Smash, so yea, those 3 millions all of a sudden become 10 millions if not many many more.

Anyways, I am not joining any side of the debate, just wanted to point that out.

Edit: PS: Brawl is close to 12 million copies by today's sales.

 

[otter]

I don't want to get into this argument so take note, I am not taking sides on the argument, but...

Literally Millions is anything above 1,999,999 as 1 person after that is considered 2 millions.

I thought I was going crazy for a second...

 

[FirestormNeos]

I don't want to get into this argument so take note, I am not taking sides on the argument, but...

Literally Millions is anything above 1,999,999 as 1 person after that is considered 2 millions. How can you actually write that sentence it's so wrong in every sense of the word. Anyways, also there are many people who didn't rebuy Smash and were completely new to the game (not all 7m people who owned Melee bought Brawl). Also not every copy of smash means 1 player, a household could have 2, 3 or 4 kids, heck a father and his children could also play together. I even had 6-10 people practice with me weekly and none of them owned Brawl, that is 6-10 people for only 1 copy of Smash, so yea, those 3 millions all of a sudden become 10 millions if not many many more.

Anyways, I am not joining any side of the debate, just wanted to point that out.

Edit: PS: Brawl is close to 12 million copies by today's sales.

 

[Phaiyte]

I think everyone in this room is stupider for reading that sentence.

Seems like you're the only one that couldn't understand something so simple. /slowclap

 

[HeroMystic]

Fun "fact": The people who complain about Mario or CoD being "the same thing every time" are the same people who would think Brawl sucks for not being "MELEE V2."

You're trying way too hard.

 

[Vkrm]

Brawl sucks because it was melee .05

 

[FirestormNeos]

Seems like you're the only one that couldn't understand something so simple. /slowclap

The author cannot be trusted with bashing his own criticism.

You're trying way too hard.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Your avatar is really disconcerting.

 

[Hyruleslink]

I don't get why fans are so divided on Melee & Brawl. Both were excellent. The only thing I liked in Melee over Brawl was the tripping garbage wasn't there and Shiek was a monster when I used her. But the depth of Brawl's roster, customizable controls (converted to wiimote & nunchuk), and the stage builder puts Brawl over the top for me.

 

[FirestormNeos]

Am I a horrible person for caring about Tripping?

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Sakurai ripped it's spleen out and shot it to death with an MK-47, but it's not really something I'd scream at a nun for.

Jeez, people...

Your avatar is really disconcerting.

That's the idea.

I don't get why fans are so divided on Melee & Brawl. Both were excellent. The only thing I liked in Melee over Brawl was the tripping garbage wasn't there and Shiek was a monster when I used her. But the depth of Brawl's roster, customizable controls (converted to wiimote & nunchuk), and the stage builder puts Brawl over the top for me.

This is me, only I also really love how I have total control over the soundtrack. ^_^

 

[Fenrir VII]

I think it's safe to say that at its core, Brawl was a great game...

My complaints with it were relatively few, but enough to really spoil it for me on a competitive level:

-Tripping was bs... and I personally had it decide the outcome of tournament matches. There was just no reason for it.

-Lack of hitstun and fantastic defensive options turned it into a really campy game. Approaching was VERY difficult, so spammers were at an advantage.

-Random-sized hitboxes. (Snake's uptilt???)

-(The big one) There was no polish to remove single button, game breaking tactics.
What I mean by this is that the game actually favored chain grabs (a problem in melee, but made worse in brawl) and spammable B-moves (tornado, arrows, etc). The fact that DDD had an easy chaingrab that made every stage with a wall or walkoff unplayable, Pikachu/Shiek/ZSS had easy infinites on space animals, IC's had CG infinites on everybody (at least it was hard to do), Tornado alone hard-countered about half the cast, etc were just examples of lazy game design, and really broke the game for me.

If the game designers can really focus on that fourth point with this game, or we as a community can come up with a better way to limit those tactics, then the next Smash is going to be amazing... I'm hopeful right now, especially with Namco helping with the game.

 

[TreK]

Stuff

Those are things the Brawl community generally agrees with you, except for the part about hitstun. The general idea is that had all the other problems with the game been fixed somehow, Brawl would have been a much faster game and would still have the style of combos that brawlers love.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Those are things the Brawl community generally agrees with you, except for the part about hitstun. The general idea is that had all the other problems with the game been fixed somehow, Brawl would have been a much faster game and would still have the style of combos that brawlers love.

True, I'm not trying to hate on the game... I think it's great, and heck, I'm among its supporters from the beginning. The things I listed were mainly arguments that I couldn't really defend the game against...

I still consider myself a part of the Brawl community, and if I'm being completely honest, I would have stayed in the tournament scene a lot longer if my fourth point weren't true... I could forgive the game quite a lot, but I couldn't get past stupid design decisions/misses like Pika's d-throw chaingrab / Sheik's infinite f-tilt on spacies, Tornado absolutely wrecking quite a number of the cast, etc.

I don't mind disadvantageous matchups, or even MK dominating, but I want it to be more than 1 grab = death or 1 move > all yours.

 

[SmashCentralOfficial]

The Japanese consider the Marvel games to be kusoge and don't take it super serious like American players. Most people consider it fun and/or broken and still play it just for lulz and for having salt mines. What helps Marvel a lot is the highly recognizable cast. Most will recognize at least a fourth of the roster or at least anyone in a Marvel movie in the last ten years. Not only that, but it's super flashy as hell with a lot of hammy lines ("I CAN'T CONTROL IT!"), and the initial learning curve is much smaller than a lot of the other active fighers.

Balance plays only a small role in the appeal of a game (from a marketing POV), but it is the main factor that encourages you to keep playing the game.


As far as I know, none of the big fighting games released since Brawl have had as large of a tier range as Meta Knight and Ganondorf except for maybe Marvel.

I think what "hurts" Smash is its cast. It's the same reason why games like BlazBlue, Guilty Gear, Persona, Arcana Heart, etc. have a hard time catching on in the US. Marvel's roster is full of manly comic characters that American guys can easily relate to. Anime/Airdash games have manly characters, but Americans just don't take anime styles seriously unless it's Street Fighter, Final Fantasy, or Tekken. They take cartoony styles less seriously, hence the Animation Age Ghetto.

Really great post. Cut it a bit for brevity.


Anyways, I really encourage everyone to try Project: M if they haven't yet. It's the Brawl cast with Melee physics and techniques, with a bunch of new stages and songs as well! They've even changed movesets around a bit to try and balance the game as best as they can, and the newest version (2.6) will be out this month. (Just google it!)

When playing Project: M, I really feel like it would've been a near perfect sequel to Melee. It has a little bit of Brawls floatiness, but the ability to wavedash and l-cancel really make up for it.

 

[tazmohanna]

things i like more in brawl than melee:
different characters = different playstyles (this is the most underrated, most ignored great aspect of brawl)
grabbing edge while facing away (nobody's happy if you lose by this, not even the victor)
you chose the controller you wanted to use (that's pretty epic when you think about it)
there's way more awesome glitches/exploitations than just l-cancel and wavedash (harder ones too.... l-cancel and wavedash really aren't THAT hard compared to the hardest glitches in brawl), and they're not mandatory or universal which means higher skill cap without forcing everyone to learn the same thing before they can really play (suck it melee players)
no hitstun... it's a fighting game based off ALWAYS reading your opponent, it's better trust me, memorizing a combo and seeing a combo are cool for a much shorter time (however some skills need more knockback or less ending lag *falcon kick*)

things i like more about melee than brawl:
faast fast fast, falling fast, moving fast, hitting fast, so fast, there's really no denying that it's better faster
shield locking (i like ssb64 for this too) shield grab is just too strong and formidable in brawl
mewtwo
grab throws > grab releases (grab releases are pretty lame)

sorry if this hurts anyone's pride, but a lot of players would ruin the game for me if they were in charge of design

 

[Vkrm]

things i like more in brawl than melee:
different characters = different playstyles (this is the most underrated, most ignored great aspect of brawl)

This is completely false. You find more variance in the high tiers in melee. The spacies rush down, peach shiek and jiggs play more passive, marth/falcon, meet in the middle with their heavy punishes and stage control.

grabbing edge while facing away (nobody's happy if you lose by this, not even the victor)

Nobody who's good at the game dies this way.

you chose the controller you wanted to use (that's pretty epic when you think about it)

Im sure you're a cool guy, but this is the dumbest thing I've ever read. All the alternate control schemes are inferior from a functionality standpoint. They can add up to 6 frames of input delay, and not having a joystick means you can be as subtle with your air movements. Not to mention we can blame these alternate controls for those little annoying quirks like those accidental fast falls with dair, and the loss of light shielding. I wished they would of had one default setting that actually worked instead of a bunch that don't.

there's way more awesome glitches/exploitations than just l-cancel and wavedash (harder ones too.... l-cancel and wavedash really aren't THAT hard compared to the hardest glitches in brawl), and they're not mandatory or universal which means higher skill cap without forcing everyone to learn the same thing before they can really play

Okay, where to start? Lcancel and wavedashing were both intentional. The glitches in brawl are often so difficult that no one bothers to learn them. Even if you did your improvement would be really subtle because they don't do a whole lot. You didn't factor in how the glitches you mentioned would actually affect the meta game. Tech skill is not prerequisite to success in melee, hbox is a top player because he's smart, and the players who do put in time are rewarded with cleaner/faster movement. Don't you think it would be better if DDD's chain grab required some dedication to master? On the real, taught that **** to my grandma and were gonna team at apex 2014.

no hitstun... it's a fighting game based off ALWAYS reading your opponent, it's better trust me, memorizing a combo and seeing a combo are cool for a much shorter time

Always based on reads? Not when you're chain grabbing or grab releasing though isn't that right? Another thing you might want to think about is how limited your mobility options are in brawl. It's not hard to read people when so many of the options available are bad ones. If you're talking about how many more reads you need to close out a stock in brawl save it. You find more decision making in melee's follow up game where combo di is more of a factor.

sorry if this hurts anyone's pride, but a lot of players would ruin the game for me if they were in charge of design

Well I guess you like bad games. If anyone on the brawl side wants to know how to cut down on brawl vs melee discussions, I'll tell you. Do some actual research on the other person's game before mouthing off.

(suck it melee players)

No U

 

[Black Mantis]

Really great post. Cut it a bit for brevity.


Anyways, I really encourage everyone to try Project: M if they haven't yet. It's the Brawl cast with Melee physics and techniques, with a bunch of new stages and songs as well! They've even changed movesets around a bit to try and balance the game as best as they can, and the newest version (2.6) will be out this month. (Just google it!)

When playing Project: M, I really feel like it would've been a near perfect sequel to Melee. It has a little bit of Brawls floatiness, but the ability to wavedash and l-cancel really make up for it.

Honestly, what's the point of playing (and investing time) in Project M when smash 4 is coming out. If you want to play Melee then just play Melee. Brawl was never meant to be melee part 2.

It is a successor, not a sequel.

Sequel examples: Super Mario Bros -> SMB Lost Levels -> Super Mario Bros. 3 ; Super Mario Galaxy -> Super Mario Galaxy 2 ; Banjo Kazooie -> Banjo Tooie ; Sonic the Hedgehog -> Sonic the Hedgehog 2 -> Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

Sequels directly build off of the previously offered gameplay and or story. By putting a "2" or "3" in the title, the developer is implying that they're building right off of the previous game.

Successor Examples: Super Mario 64 -> Super Mario Sunshine -> Super Mario Galaxy (in the sense of 3D Mario title) ; SSB -> SSBM -> SSBB ; Mario Kart 64 -> Mario Kart Double Dash -> Mario Kart Wii (omitting handheld versions); Paper Mario -> Paper Mario TTYD -> Super Paper Mario -> Paper Mario Sticker Star

Successors usually keep the same general idea of gameplay, but they're at liberty to change mechanics of it. From SM64 -> Sunshine, you got Fludd. In galaxy, you're in space, no Fludd, and you're armed with your star spins and star bits, and you deal with different mechanics like gravity changes. MK64 = Only Karts. MK:DD = Teamwork. MKW = Bikes plus a new drifting mechanic. Super Paper Mario was much less of an RPG than the previous Paper Mario games.

Plus hacking the game goes back into the idea of us being maniacs (as Sakurai called us). We care so much about 1 game that we hack another to make it similar to the one we love. It makes developers less likely to support our community.

Plus Vkrm you know nothing of Brawl balance. A Zero Suit Samus won the world's biggest brawl tourney this year.

 

[Vkrm]

Salem hadn't won a tournament before apex and he hasn't won one since. I think this is a testament to how inconsistent brawl can be when I look at it with my brawl hater goggles. I didn't intend to say brawl was any worse balanced, I was talking only about the variety in different play styles.

Project melee is not going to be completely identical to ssbm when it's finished. The team wants to carry over everything good about melee and leaves all the flaws like bad balancing behind. Its going to take a game we like and hopefully make it into one we love. What they're doing isn't meaningless. I'll meet you halfway on your successor vs sequel spiel and say maybe we shouldn't have expected melee 2. But to be fair, everything in 64 was present in melee. It isn't hard to see why everybody was so surprised when you think about how radically different brawl and melee were.

 

[Hyruleslink]

I think some of you guys take this game a little too seriously. It's a game. Relax a little. I converted from the'cube controller to the nunchuk and I didn't notice any lag.