Is Project M too easy relatively?

[Y-L]

I'm pointing out that the difference is noticeable even to casual gamers. Not everyone a casual plays against is another casual dumbed down as much as you think. There are casual players out there who like playing with tournament rules and even compete among themselves, but don't have the real commitment to go beyond that

Casual Smashers have complained a lot about l canceling. 'Tourneyfag. I play for fun' -my impersonation of 1. Also, they've complained about Melee being broken because of glitches, wavedashing, and l canceling. Have you never heard of that? They complain about other people doing it, to be exact. Enabling them to do the effect of 1 of those things too would be nice for them

What's so bad about enabling noobs to do more? The effect being automatic would have minimal cost on the competitive players and would even benefit them. It's not bad game design like a comeback mechanic

I never said they were dumb but they don't have the commitment to learn the tech like you said and neither do the people they play with. If no one is using it then they are all on the same level therefore it is irrelevant for casuals.

Assuming you're talking about the unlikely situation in which a casual is playing against a competitive player it's pretty obvious the casual is going to complain. They don't put the same time and effort into the game as competitive players do so obviously the compete time player is going to be in an advantageous position. That doesn't mean we should make the game easier to play because casuals do not want to put the effort in to be at the same level as a competitive player without any practice.

I am aware that this doesn't affect the skill ceiling, like I said it affects the skill floor and takes away from the credibility of high level Smash players. You're making the tech itself sound a lot harder than it really is anyways, when it is the easiest of all high level tech. Like you said casuals complain about wavedashing too so what should we accommodate to them also by having an auto-wavedashing button?

 

[EPsilon933]

I never said they were dumb but they don't have the commitment to learn the tech like you said and neither do the people they play with. If no one is using it then they are all on the same level therefore it is irrelevant for casuals.

Assuming you're talking about the unlikely situation in which a casual is playing against a competitive player it's pretty obvious the casual is going to complain. They don't put the same time and effort into the game as competitive players do so obviously the compete time player is going to be in an advantageous position. That doesn't mean we should make the game easier to play because casuals do not want to put the effort in to be at the same level as a competitive player without any practice.

I am aware that this doesn't affect the skill ceiling, like I said it affects the skill floor and takes away from the credibility of high level Smash players. You're making the tech itself sound a lot harder than it really is anyways, when it is the easiest of all high level tech. Like you said casuals complain about wavedashing too so what should we accommodate to them also by having an auto-wavedashing button?

It is relevant because not being able to l cancel limits the effectiveness of approaching, making the game more campy

A casual player may complain about, but there are also casual gamers who wouldn't complain about someone being good at the game. Making the effect automatic isn't exactly shrinking the skill gap as it is enabling novice players to do 1 required thing that should always be done. You might be thinking too generally

1 extraneous input is dropped. All of a sudden Smashers are back to being a joke again. Do you ever think that there's a lot more to depth than having high inputs/second? A game can have a low amount of that and still have a good skill gap

Wavedashing is easier than l canceling. The timing on it is static for the character. The timing of l canceling changes based on cues like height or muscle memory that involves more inputs making it more complex

The discussion is only about making the effect of l canceling automatic, nothing else

 

[Guilu]

L-Cancels also allow for combos, and I'd argue the casual smasher's experience benefits from not being 0-to-death'd by other beginners.

 

[robosteven]

I HOPE YOU'RE PROUD OF WHAT THIS THREAD HAS BECOME, JACOB29.

 

[Bleck]

alright we've now reached the point in the discussion where people start to use the word 'casuals' so I'm one hundred and ten percent outta here *ollies outty*

 

[robosteven]

alright we've now reached the point in the discussion where people start to use the word 'casuals' so I'm one hundred and ten percent outta here *ollies outty*

idk man I like it when we're condescending to people playing video games for fun

 

[Y-L]

It is relevant because not being able to l cancel limits the effectiveness of approaching, making the game more campy

A casual player may complain about, but there are also casual gamers who wouldn't complain about someone being good at the game. Making the effect automatic isn't exactly shrinking the skill gap as it is enabling novice players to do 1 required thing that should always be done. You might be thinking too generally

1 extraneous input is dropped. All of a sudden Smashers are back to being a joke again. Do you ever think that there's a lot more to depth than having high inputs/second? A game can have a low amount of that and still have a good skill gap

Wavedashing is easier than l canceling. The timing on it is static for the character. The timing of l canceling changes based on cues like height or muscle memory that involves more inputs making it more complex

The discussion is only about making the effect of l canceling automatic, nothing else

It's really not more campy, casuals don't go tryhard and projectile spam because their aerials last a few milliseconds longer. Projectile spamming is frowned upon in casual play anyways. This is coming from someone who played casually for a few years with friends and we had no problem approaching each other, we didn't have to worry about things like the opponent WDing backwards so it was essentially just as effective.

I think you are largely overexaggeraging the difficulty of an L cancel. It is definitely not harder than a wavedash lol. Don't you realize how many frames you actually get to perform an L cancel it's stupidly lenient. Wavedashes require much more precise timing, a precise angle, and much more inputs. It's hilarious that you'd even suggest an L cancel is harder. For the vast majority of characters you can hit L at the exact same time as you hold down to fast fall and the L cancel will succeed (assuming SH, which is generally a better approach option).

Actually this thread was created to discuss if PM was too easy, and you're suggesting to make it even easier lol.

EDIT: also lol at people taking the word casual out of context.

 

[robosteven]

My perspective on L-cancelling is that I simply like my fighters fast and combo-oriented. If l-cancelling were automatic (and don't give me the Brawl crap, I'm talking about if aeriels had little to no lag upon landing), comboing out of the hit would be more of the central focus, and I like that idea because rushdown characters make me rock-hard. For the sake of conflicting with tech windows however, I don't think it'd really be a good idea to make it automatic. I'd love it, but it'd make some characters that are already amazing so much better.

Also, upon thinking of the "dribbling" analogy, I thought about teching in general. What if teching was automatic? That requires specific timing and reaction, and like 99% of the time it's beneficial to tech whenever possible. How is that different? ...I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, this is actually a genuine question. Why would that be any different from making l-cancelling automatic?

 

[shairn]

Having L-canceling in means you can miss your L-cancel, and that happens at all levels of play. Just much less often in the highest level. These are situations that you can use to punish your opponent, something that would be removed should L canceling be automatic.

 

[Saito]

Wavedashing is easier than l canceling. The timing on it is static for the character. The timing of l canceling changes based on cues like height or muscle memory that involves more inputs making it more complex

This is the first time I've ever actually heard this.

Hell, L cancelling came before I learned how to wavedash and it came much easier than wavedashing.

 

[robosteven]

This is the first time I've ever actually heard this.

Hell, L cancelling came before I learned how to wavedash and it came much easier than wavedashing.

I'm in the same boat, but it was less for me about how to wavedash and more about how to apply it.

 

[1MachGO]

I think some of us aren't putting into enough consideration that video games are toys. They're things to play with to have fun. Adding an arbitrary input just because limits the capabilities of people who aren't playing to win. Casual gamers vastly outnumber competitive gamers by an extremely big margin. How is a technical demand that opens up almost 0 new options appealing? More would be turned away from that technical demand. The difficulty of the move isn't as much of a concern as you might think it is. Or at least I'm not worried about it too much. The problem is that it's always better to do it and it should always be done. However, having to hit l/r/z so often doesn't feel very good. It taxes the player's mind and fingers unnecessarily. It wears out players faster than if it didn't exist. (We're defining mastery as learning it to be able to do it (close to) 100% of the time, right?)

It's an addition of a handicap on the player. That doesn't do much to add depth

Your entire argument assumes too many false things to be true when they aren't.

Assumption 1: L-Cancelling was added to inhibit casuals
No. We don't know why Sakurai put the technique in Melee/64. It was added into P:M because P:M is extensively inspired by Melee gameplay. You can't say L-Cancelling was added to turn casuals away.

Assumption 2: Casual gamers care about L-Cancelling
If we are going to group players into two groups like "Casual" and "Hardcore", where do we draw the line? Is a gamer still casual after he looks up information about the game he players? Is a gamer still casual if he cares about winning all the time? Is a gamer still casual if he makes a smashboards account!? In most cases, I would say anyone who is "casual" either a) doesn't actually know about L-Cancelling's existence or b) doesn't care and it won't affect their enjoyment of the game. Casual smash and competitive smash is apples and oranges and L-Cancelling has no impact on the former.

Assumption 3: "The problem is that it's always better to do it and it should always be done"
In my last post, I said I can only think of two reasonable arguments against L-Cancelling. 1. it can inhibit beginners and 2. it is arbitrary in nature. However, perhaps the most flawed, and common argument against L-Cancelling is that it lacks a risk/reward dynamic. This argument is wrong because it assumes L-Cancelling is supposed to be something that it isn't. L-Cancelling is not an "action". It is not something which alters the state of your character like wavedashing/running and has no "pure" affect on your options. L-Cancelling is actually an input. It is in the same category as pressing "A" or smashing the control stick. It is something which the player is required to do and that requirement is based on a decision to perform an "action". All of the risk/reward relationships associated with L-Cancelling are entirely relegated to aerials. In other words, you weigh options before you perform an aerial. However, when you do so, you are REQUIRED to input that aerial correctly; including a perfect L-Cancel.

The counter intuitive issue and origin of that argument comes from the fact that L-Cancelling is an input which comes at the END of an action. This is where the arbitrary argument comes in. However, it is still an input and can't be judged for lacking risk/reward dynamic. It does exactly what it was intended to do.

Assumption 4: Having to hit l/r/z doesn't feel good, it takes the player's mind/fingers unnecessarily, it wears out players faster, etc.
Your first two statements are outright opinion and can be countered with opinion. L-Cancelling can feel good to someone (either through accomplishment or the pseudo haptic reaction to landing during an aerial) and extra technical inputs/mental planning literally add depth to the game. Your third point just sounds silly because you make L-Cancelling sound way more prevalent than it really is.

As for L-Cancelling not doing much to add depth, this is really just opinion. What is fact is that it is an addition to the game and DOES add more depth than auto-L-Cancelling

 

[EPsilon933]

L-Cancels also allow for combos, and I'd argue the casual smasher's experience benefits from not being 0-to-death'd by other beginners.

They also seem to like combos too. (U)MVC3 is also pretty popular among them too. Also, a beginner being able to 0-death someone? I don't think that can happen much at all

It's really not more campy, casuals don't go tryhard and projectile spam because their aerials last a few milliseconds longer. Projectile spamming is frowned upon in casual play anyways. This is coming from someone who played casually for a few years with friends and we had no problem approaching each other, we didn't have to worry about things like the opponent WDing backwards so it was essentially just as effective.

I think you are largely overexaggeraging the difficulty of an L cancel. It is definitely not harder than a wavedash lol. Don't you realize how many frames you actually get to perform an L cancel it's stupidly lenient. Wavedashes require much more precise timing, a precise angle, and much more inputs. It's hilarious that you'd even suggest an L cancel is harder. For the vast majority of characters you can hit L at the exact same time as you hold down to fast fall and the L cancel will succeed (assuming SH, which is generally a better approach option).

Actually this thread was created to discuss if PM was too easy, and you're suggesting to make it even easier lol.

EDIT: also lol at people taking the word casual out of context.

1 frame = 16.667 miliseconds. You mean a few friends. Having less landing lag would give them improved movement and an ability to attack sooner. Don't you think an improved ability to fight up close among them would interest them?

The difficulty of l canceling is that it doesn't require a static muscle memory and timing. It's dynamic

Making PM easier with this change would be beneficial to a lot of players

Also, upon thinking of the "dribbling" analogy, I thought about teching in general. What if teching was automatic? That requires specific timing and reaction, and like 99% of the time it's beneficial to tech whenever possible. How is that different? ...I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, this is actually a genuine question. Why would that be any different from making l-cancelling automatic?

There are times when it's good to not tech. Not teching opens up new options. You can delay, get up, get up attack, get up left, or get up right. You can't delay nor get up attack by teching

 

[Pika_thunder]

Nothing would change at the higher levels because l canceling is almost never missed. Besides, it enables noobs to approach each other. Everyone likes games that are less campy

False!
I love campy games, just trying to read your opponent, your opponent tries to read you. That is what smash is all about!

 

[EPsilon933]

Your entire argument assumes too many false things to be true when they aren't.

Assumption 1: L-Cancelling was added to inhibit casuals
No. We don't know why Sakurai put the technique in Melee/64. It was added into P:M because P:M is extensively inspired by Melee gameplay. You can't say L-Cancelling was added to turn casuals away.

Assumption 2: Casual gamers care about L-Cancelling
If we are going to group players into two groups like "Casual" and "Hardcore", where do we draw the line? Is a gamer still casual after he looks up information about the game he players? Is a gamer still casual if he cares about winning all the time? Is a gamer still casual if he makes a smashboards account!? In most cases, I would say anyone who is "casual" either a) doesn't actually know about L-Cancelling's existence or b) doesn't care and it won't affect their enjoyment of the game. Casual smash and competitive smash is apples and oranges and L-Cancelling has no impact on the former.

Assumption 3: "The problem is that it's always better to do it and it should always be done"
In my last post, I said I can only think of two reasonable arguments against L-Cancelling. 1. it can inhibit beginners and 2. it is arbitrary in nature. However, perhaps the most flawed, and common argument against L-Cancelling is that it lacks a risk/reward dynamic. This argument is wrong because it assumes L-Cancelling is supposed to be something that it isn't. L-Cancelling is not an "action". It is not something which alters the state of your character like wavedashing/running and has no "pure" affect on your options. L-Cancelling is actually an input. It is in the same category as pressing "A" or smashing the control stick. It is something which the player is required to do and that requirement is based on a decision to perform an "action". All of the risk/reward relationships associated with L-Cancelling are entirely relegated to aerials. In other words, you weigh options before you perform an aerial. However, when you do so, you are REQUIRED to input that aerial correctly; including a perfect L-Cancel.

The counter intuitive issue and origin of that argument comes from the fact that L-Cancelling is an input which comes at the END of an action. This is where the arbitrary argument comes in. However, it is still an input and can't be judged for lacking risk/reward dynamic. It does exactly what it was intended to do.

Assumption 4: Having to hit l/r/z doesn't feel good, it takes the player's mind/fingers unnecessarily, it wears out players faster, etc.
Your first two statements are outright opinion and can be countered with opinion. L-Cancelling can feel good to someone (either through accomplishment or the pseudo haptic reaction to landing during an aerial) and extra technical inputs/mental planning literally add depth to the game. Your third point just sounds silly because you make L-Cancelling sound way more prevalent than it really is.

As for L-Cancelling not doing much to add depth, this is really just opinion. What is fact is that it is an addition to the game and DOES add more depth than auto-L-Cancelling

I never said that was Sakurai's intention, nor of the PM's team. I said that was an effect of it, whether he intended it or not. L canceling is part of Smash's history, but it's still bad game design. Why not improve it?

I'd like to point out how there's only 2 sides to the spectrum of seriousness in gaming: Either you're casual or you're hardcore/competitive. There is no name for someone in the middle ground. Maybe we should come up with terms for the varying degrees of seriousness, rather than group casuals who play FFAs with items and those who play the game, know about competitive play, and don't play it like that. There are also those who like tournament rules but don't think about winning too much

It is possible to perceive something and not be aware of it. Having slow aerial landing lag affects their movement and speed of attacking compared to if the effect were automatic

The input of pressing l/r/z could have not been required and the shuffle would look exactly the same whether it was manual or automatic. The other inputs can't be made automatic because that would ruin the game. Imagine if jumping was automatic and you didn't have to do any inputs for it? It would cause unwanted actions

L canceling does what it was intended to do and a few things it wasn't intended to do. This cropped screenshot was on an official Smash Bros website long ago

Have you ever played a character who doesn't need to l cancel? Or a game with no l canceling? It's less tiring to not have to hit an extra button than to have to hit an extra button

L canceling adds some depth, but the benefit of not having to do work for the same effect is better. Like imagine if you were given a car for free. Would you decline and rather pay a few tens of thousands of dollars for it? That car would feel more valuable, but you just dropped a lot of money that could have objectively been put to nicer use

False!
I love campy games, just trying to read your opponent, your opponent tries to read you. That is what smash is all about!

I don't think you noticed a bit of an exaggeration. However, my statement is still mostly true. Just compare UMVC3 with Brawl. Everyone loves watching the former. Where's the (comparative amount of) love for watching the latter? Also, approaching involves reading the opponent too

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

If someone cares about auto L-Cancels enough there is a script they can download to enable it. Casual players are more than capable of customizing their codeset to their liking.

 

[1MachGO]

I never said that was Sakurai's intention, nor of the PM's team. I said that was an effect of it, whether he intended it or not. L canceling is part of Smash's history, but it's still bad game design. Why not improve it?

I'd like to point out how there's only 2 sides to the spectrum of seriousness in gaming: Either you're casual or you're hardcore/competitive. There is no name for someone in the middle ground. Maybe we should come up with terms for the varying degrees of seriousness, rather than group casuals who play FFAs with items and those who play the game, know about competitive play, and don't play it like that. There are also those who like tournament rules but don't think about winning too much

It is possible to perceive something and not be aware of it. Having slow aerial landing lag affects their movement and speed of attacking compared to if the effect were automatic

If I am reading this right, you are admitting that casual is the wrong term to use. However, now you are specifying a small audience of semi-casuals? So you are doing away with the majority vs. minority argument? And again, these people might know about L-Cancelling, but do they really care?

We need to accept the idea that L-Cancelling has no impact on a casual player's enjoyment of the game.

Have you ever played a character who doesn't need to l cancel? Or a game with no l canceling? It's less tiring to not have to hit an extra button than to have to hit an extra button

no offense... but oh the humanity? You are resorting to opinion (again) and I would be hard pressed to find anyone else who deems L-Cancelling as "tiring".

L canceling adds some depth, but the benefit of not having to do work for the same effect is better.

How? All you have been arguing is that L-Cancelling makes the game "harder". However, you haven't really proven how a minor addition of difficulty is overwhelming to the point of making the added depth irrelevant. The vast majority of casual players don't know/care about the technique, and anyone with an actual competitive drive would not be turned away by something small like L-Cancelling. Furthermore, we could pose the argument that it benefits beginners because it gives them rapid gratification during improvement.

Like imagine if you were given a car for free. Would you decline and rather pay a few tens of thousands of dollars for it? That car would feel more valuable, but you just dropped a lot of money that could have objectively been put to nicer use

To say this analogy is a stretch would be the greatest understatement. ever.

 

[Y-L]

Preach it 1MachGO

 

[Murphidious]

baaaleeted.

 

[Pickledpotatoes]

When I saw this thread, I was confused by how it could be 5 pages long, being about a question which someone could back their answer up with solid facts, making it easily agreeable with. Then I read it.

Whoever brought up auto l-canceling should apologize profusely to Jacob29.

 

[alphabattack]

I think that L-canceling should stay. People commonly say "Oh, pros never mess it up, so lets get rid off it," but that is true for so many activities. Basketball. Pro's never mess up dribbling so lets just let them carry the ball. But on the off chance they do, it is a big opportunity for the other team to take advantage. Football has the extra point after a touchdown, no one misses that, so lets just say a touchdown is worth 7 instead. Also, pros in smash never mess up wave dashing, so lets make wavedashing a button press. But I have seen professionals (albeit rarely) mess up a wavedash and SD (See hax). So it is possible for a pro to miss an l cancel. In fact, in some of the RPM calculating, people note when the pro misses an l cancel, and it happens more than you'd think. I know when they did Isai's, he missed some. So saying it doesn't happen isn't really valid. And lastly, there is a nostalgia effect. L-canceling was from one of the best games ever created. Smash has done some incredible things, and the creators of PM wanted to show how much they loved melee, so they put it in. My $.02, so combined with GaretHax, we now have $.04!

 

[Saito]

L-cancelling isn't going anywhere mate.

It's far too integrated in this game for it to go anywhere.

This is just the argument of why people think it's bad and SHOULDN'T be in the game and the people who think "Eh, it's cool and it definitely rewards the player for learning how to do it."

 

[Deleted member]

Oh great, this crap again...

L-cancelling is a *****y, pointless mechanic for one simple reason - there is a lack of a trade-off. Not L-cancelling is always a bad thing. Compare that to jump-cancelled grabs, where there usually is some kind of trade-off. There are times where you might want the extra range of a running grab, and therefore you might not want to press that extra button to execute the j-c grab. L-cancelling lacks this attribute. There is zero benefit to a non-L-cancelled aerial.

Maybe it would make it easier for people to understand this fact if they thought of an L-cancelled aerial and its non-L-cancelled counterpart as two separate moves. It's like if you theoretically had, say, a B and a Forward-B that were exactly the same in every aspect (range, damage, KB, etc.), except the F-B had less endlag. Most people would agree that this an idiotic and poor design because there would never, ever be a reason to use the neutral B move.

The unfortunate truth is that L-cancelling has been grandfathered in, and once something like that has happened, it's futile to argue with people over the issue because they become blind to the reasons as to why it's a stupid mechanic. Instead, they focus on the satisfaction they get from pressing a button and seeing a white flash. "Hey, I'm not a noob like those other guys because I can L-cancel! I like feeling skilled! Don't take that away from me!"


tl;dr - My post is pointless and will change nothing because people are stubborn.

 

[Saito]

We had a moment of peace.

It begins again though.

 

[Deleted member]

I enjoy disturbing the peace.

 

[Saito]

I enjoy disturbing the peace.

I have a real question.

Was SmashFromThePast taken or was 15 the letter cap limit for making a name?

 

[shairn]

Oh great, this crap again...

L-cancelling is a ****ty, pointless mechanic for one simple reasons - there is a lack of a trade-off. Not L-cancelling is always a bad thing. Compare that to jump-cancelled grabs, where there usually is some kind of trade-off. There are times where you might want the extra range of a running grab, and therefore you might not want to press that extra button to execute the j-c grab. L-cancelling lacks this attribute. There is zero benefit to a non-L-cancelled aerial.

Maybe it would make it easier for people to understand this fact if they thought of an L-cancelled aerial and its non-L-cancelled counterpart as two separate moves. It's like if you theoretically had, say, a B and a Forward-B that were exactly the same in every aspect (range, damage, KB, etc.), except the F-B had less endlag. Most people would agree that this an idiotic and poor design because there would never, ever be a reason to use the neutral B move.

That analogy doesn't work simply because people wouldn't realistically use the useless nB by accident instead of the fB. While people would ideally l-cancel 100% of the time, it isn't the case. You're looking at it like nobody misses their l-cancels, ever. Indeed, in 20XX, l-cancel might as well be automatic, but until then, l-cancels will be missed sometimes, and these will create opportunities that can be exploited by opponents. Not l-canceling isn't a choice, it's a mistake.

The unfortunate truth is that L-cancelling has been grandfathered in, and once something like that has happened, it's futile to argue with people over the issue because they become blind to the reasons as to why it's a stupid mechanic. Instead, they focus on the satisfaction they get from pressing a button and seeing a white flash. "Hey, I'm not a noob like those other guys because I can L-cancel! I like feeling skilled! Don't take that away from me!"


tl;dr - My post is pointless and will change nothing because people are stubborn.

Much strawman
Very argument

 

[Deleted member]

I just wasn't paying attention when I registered. I signed up really quick on my phone the day that I found out that PM discussion was moving off of Smashmods and onto Smashboards. I guess I might go through the effort of having it changed someday if it started bothering me.

 

[Saito]

I just wasn't paying attention when I registered. I signed up really quick on my phone the day that I found out that PM discussion was moving off of Smashmods and onto Smashboards. I guess I might go through the effort of having it changed someday if it started bothering me.

I couldn't live with that pain.

Much strawman
Very argument

We are discussing extremely important matters here.

Names of our fellow smashboardians is far more interesting than Lol-Cancelling.

 

[Deleted member]

That analogy doesn't work simply because people wouldn't realistically use the useless nB by accident instead of the fB. While people would ideally l-cancel 100% of the time, it isn't the case. You're looking at it like nobody misses their l-cancels, ever. Indeed, in 20XX, l-cancel might as well be automatic, but until then, l-cancels will be missed sometimes, and these will create opportunities that can be exploited by opponents. Not l-canceling isn't a choice, it's a mistake.

I've seen plenty of people accidentally use the wrong move all the time. Should it happen? No, but just like with missed L-cancels, people make mistakes. That's what realistically happens. My analogy works fine.

You're grasping straws anyway since my point about jump-cancelled grabs still holds firm. It's something that also requires one extra button input, but unlike L-cancelling, there are actually reasons somebody might not want to jump-cancel a grab. There is a trade-off.

The only logical thing to do is either give non-L-cancelled aerials some kind of benefit over L-cancelled aerials, or get rid of L-cancelling altogether. People aren't thinking logically, though.

 

[MLGF]

I like to think of L-cancelling as a sign of calmness in a match. It's easy to L-cancel consistently while training against CPU's once you figure it out. And with friends also picking it up.
But when one is playing a very tenacious match, I think how consistent one is L-cancelling is signs of how well one is gripping the situation. Granted, this isn't true once you get better but it's a great sign for people learning how to deal with outside pressure.

So yeah, L-cancelling is important. Let's keep it.

 

[EPsilon933]

If I am reading this right, you are admitting that casual is the wrong term to use. However, now you are specifying a small audience of semi-casuals? So you are doing away with the majority vs. minority argument? And again, these people might know about L-Cancelling, but do they really care?

We need to accept the idea that L-Cancelling has no impact on a casual player's enjoyment of the game.



no offense... but oh the humanity? You are resorting to opinion (again) and I would be hard pressed to find anyone else who deems L-Cancelling as "tiring".



How? All you have been arguing is that L-Cancelling makes the game "harder". However, you haven't really proven how a minor addition of difficulty is overwhelming to the point of making the added depth irrelevant. The vast majority of casual players don't know/care about the technique, and anyone with an actual competitive drive would not be turned away by something small like L-Cancelling. Furthermore, we could pose the argument that it benefits beginners because it gives them rapid gratification during improvement.



To say this analogy is a stretch would be the greatest understatement. ever.

I'm saying that there's a degree of diversity in the casual side of the spectrum. The effect of the slow part of manual l canceling has an effect on casual players. It makes them slower and less capable of approaching

Hitting an extra button takes up a small amount of energy compared to not hitting an extra button. It was a comparison

Because the supposed added depth is more on the fault of the player failing to l cancel and it opens up so few, so limited new options for taking advantage of shield angling and being Ice Climbers. Beginners could be spending that effort on something else that has a bigger effect on gameplay like wavedashing

 

[Saito]

I think Casuals have their hands full with this game already.

People complained that Melee was too fast. Project M is just as fast albeit with a better camera so it's easier to keep track of.

The game would be even faster than melee (for casuals at least) than Melee if it had the auto L cancel.

Miiiiiight be a problem.

 

[MLGF]

Melee was too fast?
I'm sorry, as a 10 year old I never had a problem with casual Melee speed. It's hard to imagine that ever being the case TBH.

 

[Bleck]

Much strawman
Very argument

I don't know - there's not really much difference between saying "I like that this makes the skill ceiling higher" and "I want as few other people to be as good at this game as possible". I don't think it'd be a stretch to assume that there aren't any people arguing in favor of L-canceling who are totes bad at it.

 

[Saito]

Melee was too fast?
I'm sorry, as a 10 year old I never had a problem with casual Melee speed. It's hard to imagine that ever being the case TBH.

You'd be surprised.

 

[Jimbo_G]

I think these L-Cancel arguments often have a crippling lack of comparison to similar aspects of other fighting games. While there are no other fighting games likes Smash, it's not entirely isolated in its own bubble. Virtua Fighter 4, back in its very brief hay-day, was considered one of the most tech-heavy games of the time, and there were many button inputs and techs within the game that were very difficult to pull off and had no risk/reward aspect. Example: When launched into the air in the game, the moment before you landed you could hit all the action buttons and recover from the landing without any landing lag, and also half the damage you took from the landing. The input was very strict, and missing it meant you were open to ground attacks and you took twice the amount of damage from the land as you normally would.

This, in my opinion, is a similar function to L-Cancelling, in that its a function that is less about you beating your opponent, and more about you beating yourself against your own tech skill. That's a unique aspect about Smash that many people often ignore, in that half the game isn't just learning how to beat your opponent, but also learning how to beat the system in order to get the most mileage out of your actions. If you can't master the timing of the attacks and techniques of your chosen character, it doesn't matter how poor your opponent is, you're still only functioning at a fraction of your potential. While I admit I don't like L-Cancelling, it brings an interesting level of skill I enjoy improving upon that has nothing to do with outsmarting my opponent like other fighting games sometimes focus on.

 

[Saito]

Virtua Fighter 4, back in its very brief hay-day, was considered one of the most tech-heavy games of the time, and there were many button inputs and techs within the game that were very difficult to pull off and had no risk/reward aspect. Example: When launched into the air in the game, the moment before you landed you could hit all the action buttons and recover from the landing without any landing lag, and also half the damage you took from the landing. The input was very strict, and missing it meant you were open to ground attacks and you took twice the amount of damage from the land as you normally would.

That actually sounds closer to "Teching" than L cancelling.

 

[Jimbo_G]

That actually sounds closer to "Teching" than L cancelling.

True, it's not a 1-to-1 equal comparison, but unlike in Smash choosing not to tech in VF4 had no benefit except to give your opponent an easier time beating you around. In that respect, I believe it is more similar to LC'ing than teching, because it serves no other function but to diminish consequences.

 

[TreK]

Also, upon thinking of the "dribbling" analogy, I thought about teching in general. What if teching was automatic? That requires specific timing and reaction, and like 99% of the time it's beneficial to tech whenever possible. How is that different? ...I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, this is actually a genuine question. Why would that be any different from making l-cancelling automatic?

That may just be the way I see it, but :
1)teching is a defensive thing, l cancelling is an offensive thing. It's okay to make defense harder because then people are more likely to go for the flashier metagame.
2)there are instances where you might choose not to tech on purpose. It opens up your ability to do a getup attack, delays your roll if you see the opponent trying to punish a tech roll, and if you have enough horizontal momentum, you'll fall off the stage/platform and recover even faster than if you had teched.