Is Project M too easy relatively?

[Jacob29]

Right now there's a discussion on Smash UK about PMs tech difficulty relative to Melee.

Some seem to think that ATs being easier is a bad thing and should need plenty of practice while some don't.

What do you think? Personally I think ATs being easier is a good thing as long as it doesn't take optil s away.

Notable examples of ATs being easier:

1 frame easier to do SWD, 1 frame more lenient for short hopping and no longer need to JC USmashes.

 

[EPsilon933]

The effect of l canceling should be automatic. That would be nice

 

[Bleck]

I don't believe that a game's difficulty should be artificially inflated by any degree that isn't necessary, but then again, I don't have Asperger's Syndrome.

 

[Tryst]

I personally love this leniency. When I started trying to learn most ATs on Melee I could not get it right and gave up many times. When I tried on P:M I could actually do it a tiny little bit, and since then I have been getting better and better because of my lack of frustration. Now I can sucesfully do them both on Melee and Project M Thanks to this leniency. :D
Oh, and this title does seem a little misleading and seems like you are talking about the overall difficulty of the game. I don't think this effects that too much.

 

[MLGF]

As long as the ceiling is still just as high, the slightly higher floor is fine.

 

[Y-L]

The effect of l canceling should be automatic. That would be nice

I think that would be taking it a bit too far. L canceling is very easy and becomes muscle memory after a week of practice.

In regard to the OP I think this game is a bit easier to play than melee, but who says that is a bad thing? There are so many more combo opportunities and the better recoveries allows for much more risks to be taken. I personally prefer PM to melee.

 

[EPsilon933]

I think that would be taking it a bit too far. L canceling is very easy and becomes muscle memory after a week of practice.

Shouldn't it always be done? Why should there be a requirement to always do something you should always do? Like breathing. Imagine if that was manual

 

[Y-L]

Shouldn't it always be done? Why should there be a requirement to always do something you should always do? Like breathing. Imagine if that was manual

Because if we do that then why can't we just map the L button to wavedash or map another button to SHFFL. The game should still require some tech skill to play or else it's nothing special.

 

[Y-L]

Because if we do that then why can't we just map the L button to wavedash or map another button to SHFFL. The game should still require some tech skill to play or else it's nothing special.

I agree there is no need to make the game harder but there is also no reason to make it easier.

 

[Bleck]

Because if we do that then why can't we just map the L button to wavedash or map another button to SHFFL.

Because wavedashing and shffls are doing a series of distinct actions, whereas L-canceling is just adding a button press to make another action happen faster. L-canceling is an artificial difficulty modulator, in that sense - if L-canceling is valid, then you might as well just add a function into the game where you have to press the Z button in between every action or the actions won't do as much damage for some reason.

 

[victra♥]

Theres no real reason to not lcancel. It really is just an arbitrary button that is required, since you'd get punished for not utilizing it.

Once youve played enough it is muscle memory, but its definitely not needed. All it does is speed up our inevitable arthritis.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

The effect of l canceling should be automatic. That would be nice

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: Automatic L-Canceling would benefit characters with more mobility and pressure options than characters without those traits. Fox, Falco, Wolf, Sonic, Marth, and a few other characters come to mind. This would greatly be detrimental to characters that are forced to go on the defensive, especially if they have a poor neutral game (such as Ness). The removal of manual L-Canceling would pretty much nullify half of the risk that is involved in pressuring a character that is on the defensive.

Regardless of L-Canceling being arbitrary or not, the fact of the matter is that it takes skill and timing in order to utilize effectively. It adds another layer of depth that players must be able to grasp, whether they like it or not; though by overcoming that hurdle, players can understand the metagame on a more intricate level. Because of the risk that is involved on mistiming an L-Cancel, expert players calculate when it is the safest time to use such moves, and take an extra step when it comes to trying to read their opponent's reactions and tactics. They do this, because they know that they just can't throw out any particular move, and expect it having no sort of risk attached to it.

It isn't mandatory to make a resume in order to be hired for a job, but good luck trying to get a job without a resume.

 

[Y-L]

Because wavedashing and shffls are doing a series of distinct actions, whereas L-canceling is just adding a button press to make another action happen faster. L-canceling is an artificial difficulty modulator, in that sense - if L-canceling is valid, then you might as well just add a function into the game where you have to press the Z button in between every action or the actions won't do as much damage for some reason.

L canceling is one part of a series. The point is that we shouldn't make the game any harder, but at the same time we shouldn't make it any easier. I wouldn't mind if they added a setting to auto L cancel that would be tournament illegal. OP is saying that PM is already "too easy".

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I wouldn't mind if they added a setting to auto L cancel that would be tournament illegal.

Despite what I said, I agree with this statement. If possible, it would be nice if there was a setting to toggle L-Canceling on/off, similar to buffering in Project M. Though I wouldn't really care about any tournament that decides to leave the feature on.

 

[EPsilon933]

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: Automatic L-Canceling would benefit characters with more mobility and pressure options than characters without those traits. Fox, Falco, Wolf, Sonic, Marth, and a few other characters come to mind. This would greatly be detrimental to characters that are forced to go on the defensive, especially if they have a poor neutral game (such as Ness). The removal of manual L-Canceling would pretty much nullify half of the risk that is involved in pressuring a character that is on the defensive.

Nothing would change at the higher levels because l canceling is almost never missed. Besides, it enables noobs to approach each other. Everyone likes games that are less campy

Regardless of L-Canceling being arbitrary or not, the fact of the matter is that it takes skill and timing in order to utilize effectively. It adds another layer of depth that players must be able to grasp, whether they like it or not; though by overcoming that hurdle, players can understand the metagame on a more intricate level. Because of the risk that is involved on mistiming an L-Cancel, expert players calculate when it is the safest time to use such moves, and take an extra step when it comes to trying to read their opponent's reactions and tactics. They do this, because they know that they just can't throw out any particular move, and expect it having no sort of risk attached to it.

It isn't mandatory to make a resume in order to be hired for a job, but good luck trying to get a job without a resume.

Resumes have a lot of various options you can apply to them. You can give it nice formatting, mention GPAs, majors, minors, degrees, certifications, work experience, and all kinds of things employers like to see. Manual l canceling is more like driving a car without power steering. You have to have that strength to turn a car fluidly. Why have a car turn by little effort beyond a thought and gentle movement? If you can't have the strength to turn, gg. Come back when you've put effort into learning how to drive. Then you'll be causing less accidents and losing less money. That makes being able to drive competently fun

 

[Y-L]

Besides, it enables noobs to approach each other.

I would suggest to instead not be a noob. It forces players to put more time into the game and become a better player instead of just randomly throwing out moves on approaches that are not thought out.

 

[Bleck]

The thing about auto L-canceling is that it only makes sense if the game is balanced around a metagame that features lots of SHFFLs, but what should be considered is how characters with crappy aerial landing lag should instead be buffed in other areas. I'm of the opinion that L-canceling probably just shouldn't exist, and characters with poorly SHFFL'd moves should have strengths in other areas to compensate.

 

[Fortress]

Some people will argue that some specific things were harder to do in Melee, and thus required more skill to pull off and become consistently good at. Becoming strong in said skills showed that you as a player were well-developed and skilled yourself. Some people go so far as to say that the skill gap in PM between A-tier players and beginners was closed too much because of this, which I strongly disagree with.

Making those things easier to do consistently for a player of any skill level is not a bad thing. Does the difficulty and technical precision required for some things in Melee make it a more 'technical game'? Maybe, sure, but for no good reason. I think it's a good thing to give the player the access to the tech they need and the ability to perform it smoothly and consistently without having to become an A-tier player to do it, that's not going to define the skill gap in any game. The 'skill gap' is going to be determined by who can make the most of those tools in whatever situation they're put into, both consistently and effectively. That's what's going to separate your M2K's from your beginners, not how easy or how needlessly difficult certain things are to perform.

tl;dr Yes, PM is easier to play, but it's not a bad thing. Things don't need to be as needlessly difficult to pull off in Melee, and it's how your players use the tools they're given and not their ease of use that will determine any sort of skill gap.

On a more personal note, I think the notion of auto L-cancelling is too much hand holding. Just learn to L-cancel, it's not ****ing hard.

 

[Phaiyte]

Shouldn't it always be done? Why should there be a requirement to always do something you should always do? Like breathing. Imagine if that was manual

There's mindgame in L cancelling. The timings are completely different on whiff, hit, and shield. Your opponent can purposely mess up your timing and punish you for it.

 

[Y-L]

Just learn to L-cancel, it's not ****ing hard.

LOL exactly. I got it down in 2 days.

 

[Paradoxium]

Oh ****, not this again

Please people, lets not talk about L cancels

 

[Renji64]

P:M is just right imo

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

No.

/thread

 

[PlixiK]

I enjoy L canceling. It's like a rhythm game.

 

[EPsilon933]

I would suggest to instead not be a noob. It forces players to put more time into the game and become a better player instead of just randomly throwing out moves on approaches that are not thought out.

Forced to spend time and effort into a video game? These things must be so serious. Video games must not be toys then

On a more personal note, I think the notion of auto L-cancelling is too much hand holding. Just learn to L-cancel, it's not ****ing hard.

Regardless if it's easy or not, it's unnecessary of a complication. Bad game design

There's mindgame in L cancelling. The timings are completely different on whiff, hit, and shield. Your opponent can purposely mess up your timing and punish you for it.

And how often does that ever happen? When MaNg0 and Ice Climbers players play the game? That's so rare. Way to suggest a cost on a vast majority of the game to satisfy only the top 1%. It's kind of like America's economy

Oh ****, not this again

Please people, lets not talk about L cancels

Let's not try to avoid discussions finding the truth

 

[Mansta]

I'm too lazy to learn a super complicated timed button press, the developers should make it do it for me.

 

[Fortress]

Regardless if it's easy or not, it's unnecessary of a complication. Bad game design

It's not... ****ing up your aerial and getting punished for it should be a part of the game. I don't even know why you're arguing against it. You're a very, very, very, very, very small minority. Most of which is built upon people who can't do the tech.

I'm too lazy to learn a super complicated timed button press, the developers should make it do it for me.

Real talk. This man knows what's up.

 

[EPsilon933]

It's not... ****ing up your aerial and getting punished for it should be a part of the game. I don't even know why you're arguing against it. You're a very, very, very, very, very small minority. Most of which is built upon people who can't do the tech.

The game is ****ing up players' aerials, not the player ****ing up their own aerials. I think you're the very, very, very, very, very small minority

 

[GP&B]

How is the game even...

Okay.

 

[Fortress]

The game is ****ing up players' aerials, not the player ****ing up their own aerials. I think you're the very, very, very, very, very small minority

"I messed up my X-attack and got punished for it and I think that we should make Y-tech not a thing so that I don't ever **** up my move again because I couldn't perform the tech waaaaah".

Wut?

 

[EPsilon933]

"I messed up my X-attack and got punished for it and I think that we should make Y-tech not a thing so that I don't ever **** up my move again because I couldn't perform the tech waaaaah".

Wut?

Dude, not having to l cancel is totally good game design. All other fighting games seem to work wonders without it. Why can't Smash games be the same?

 

[Fortress]

Dude, not having to l cancel is totally good game design. All other fighting games seem to work wonders without it. Why can't Smash games be the same?

Because Street Fighter wasn't designed as Smash, a game based around movement, with punishment doled out for ****ing up your movement.

 

[Strong Badam]

L-Canceling is clearly poor game design.
Fortress, L-Canceling is not movement. And traditional fighting games punish players for moving poorly just the same as Smash.

 

[Fortress]

L-Canceling is clearly poor game design.
Fortress, L-Canceling is not movement. And traditional fighting games punish players for moving poorly just the same as Smash.

You can't say they do to nearly the same extent. L-cancelling is also totally an extension of movement, affecting how soon you can start getting around again. No way that it's not at all related to a player's ability to move faster.

Doesn't have to move you directly to have a stong influence on your movement itself.

 

[EPsilon933]

L-Canceling is clearly poor game design.
Fortress, L-Canceling is not movement. And traditional fighting games punish players for moving poorly just the same as Smash.

This guy knows what's up!

You can't say they do to nearly the same extent. L-cancelling is also totally an extension of movement, affecting how soon you can start getting around again. No way that it's not at all related to a player's ability to move faster.

Doesn't have to move you directly to have a stong influence on your movement itself.

Anything that makes things faster is clearly related to movement. Because then you stop for shorter periods of time

 

[GaretHax]

Hi I'm Amphrites and I don't feel like pointlessly deliniating the topic of this thread because it is loosely related to something I disagree with. Instead I will simply answer answer the original question: no I do not not feel that certain tech's being somewhat more accessible in any way detracts from Project Melee. PM has more options and advanced techniques than Melee, while also maintaining the useful properties and functions of nearly every tech found in its' predecessors. On top of all this having more consistsnt and accessable short hops and wave dashes doesn't actually hurt high level play or make the game noticably more accessible in the first place, as any semblence of competitive play REQUIRED a basic mastery of these tech's in melee. Making something fairly easy and required as a baseline skill slightly easier literally does absolutely nothing to the metagame aside from potentially making mid-level players more consistent. My $.02

 

[Fortress]

Anything that makes things faster is clearly related to movement. Because then you stop for shorter periods of time

That's... that's what I just said.

L-cancelling is also totally an extension of movement, affecting how soon you can start getting around again. No way that it's not at all related to a player's ability to move faster.

 

[ThreeSided]

I honestly believe that, as far as the whole L-canceling argument goes, both sides are perfectly valid and have arguments which merely differ due to the personal preferences behind them. There could have been an argument which made a better case for not taking it out, but in my mind the advanced state of the metagame as it pertains to L-cancelling (coming out of melee) makes that argument irrelevant, so I won't bother stating it.

If you only care about top levels of play, then arguments about difficulty become irrelevant, since L cancels are almost never missed. However, at slightly lower levels of play, the rare missed L cancel will be severely punished, allowing a player who was "better" (has their L cancels down) to have an advantage over the player who was "worse". This is theoretically what we're looking for from competitive play: To have the better player have the advantages and win most often. That being said, this increase in difficulty adds no dynamic to the game besides the occasional punish, so it might feel rather pointless and unnecessary to a player trying to learn the game who is more interested in just competing in a way that involves more than just muscle memory.

In the end, it just depends on your attitude. One is not really wrong per say. It's about what parts of the game you value more.

 

[Y-L]

Forced to spend time and effort into a video game? These things must be so serious. Video games must not be toys then

Competitive game. It's not supposed to be easy. If it was easy it wouldn't be competitive.

 

[Bleck]

Competitive game. It's not supposed to be easy. If it was easy it wouldn't be competitive.

That's not how it works.