Into The New World :: Generation V Competitive Metagame Discussion

[Kofu]

Stats after a Shell Break/Swift Swim:
HP: 252/314
Attack: N/A
Defense: 164 (246)
Special Attack: 718
Special Defense: 124 (186)
Speed: 812/564 (406/282)

In the Rain, the only time you want to use a move other than Surf is if the opponent is immune to or quadruply resistant to it, the latter of which consists of Kingdra and Ludicolo. Additionally, if you do run the 252 HP spread, you need to have Rain support, otherwise you're going to get outsped by Scarfers. 812 Speed easily outspeeds +1 Max Speed Ninjask, but if it gets plus two then you're losing. Same with the other spread and Blaziken.

Rain-boosted Surf against 252/252 Careful Nattorei: 150-177 (42.6-50.3%)
/against 252/0 Impish Nattorei: 204-240 (57.9-68.2%)

Unless the Nattorei is very Specially bulky, you're KOing it in two hits.

0 Impish Nattorei Power Whip against -1 Defense 4 HP Gorebyss: 354-416 (KO)
/against 252 HP Gorebyss: 236-278 (75.2-88.5%)

Stealth Rock will really hurt you if you face a Power Whip Nattorei.

There's some preliminary calculations, anyway.

 

[Circa]

HP Fighting and a couple layer of Spikes, dawg.

Too bad it's pretty much useless outside of Nattorei. Oh well.

 

[ss118]

No one has used Tail Glow Manaphy other than me, I feel like.

Man is that thing awesome.

 

[kirbyraeg]

tail glow manaphy is beyond stupid, lol.

it's just too good.

 

[Circa]

Has anyone tried a CM set yet?

I bet it could be even scarier.

 

[Wave⁂]

HP Fighting and a couple layer of Spikes, dawg.

Too bad it's pretty much useless outside of Nattorei. Oh well.

Surf hits it harder than HP Fighting.

Aqua Tail could be interesting.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Has anyone considered combinations of pokemon instead of singling them out?
AND we now have other pokemon that can switch in on any attack from an infernape, before gyarados had to hope there was no grass knot and gengar with other pokes had to switch in on immunities and outspeed. BUT with the GHOSTJELLYFISH and Shanderaa...

Now lets look at a pretty awesome pokemon. Nattorei(IIRC) is steel grass has crazy good spdef and def.

Grass takes away neutrality of water, electric and makes ground neutral i think.

So it is weak to fire and fighting. Now Shanderaa can come in and setup on infernape or that Hihidaruma thing. These two pokes give PERFECT coverage. But just to be safe I like the ghostjellyfish instead and opt for him too.

So these three give overlapping coverage. You just have to watch out for Ttar and other pursuiters.

Dorymuzzu is crazy. I wish I knew tauros' Dworld ability.
I can see Heracross @ Choice Scarf w/ Over confidence as an ability.
That thing can tear some stuff up.

Mach Punch Breloom manhandles Dory and Ttar.

 

[Hobobloke]

No one has used Tail Glow Manaphy other than me, I feel like.

Man is that thing awesome.

Made a rain team, and Manaphy destroys ****. Didn't even realise until I started playing with the team that Tail Glow gave +3 now.

 

[Wave⁂]

Pringles and Grassteel is a really powerful defensive core. It lacks a Ground resist / immunity, though, but Zapdos / Skarmory / Salamence / like anything can cover it up.

 

[kirbyraeg]

so tell me again what the hell pringles is again?

 

[Gates]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZUMjoxfZA

 

[kirbyraeg]

if there was a marvel pokemon it would be broken as ****

 

[Wave⁂]

Definitely Pringles.

 

[Hobobloke]

I tend to use female pokemon, just in case someone uses attratct or has rivalry etc. Burungeru is the only one I leave optionally male just so I can call him pringles.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I like how breloom manhandles both.

Adamant Technician LO Force Palm vs. 252/252 relaxed Nattorei: 72.16% - 85.23%
Adamant LO Seed Bomb vs. 252/252 bold Pringles: 83.66% - 98.51%

Breloom should start carrying Fling for Shandera. What might normally be a gimmick becomes a lot more powerful with a Fist-plate boosted 90 bp attack.

Also...I think Scarf Dugtrio is going to make a comeback as one of the best revenge killers of Shandera.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Pft. Who needs Dugtrio when you have Choice Scarf Ditto?

 

[kirbyraeg]

Ditto is a better revenger of basically everything 99% of the time, but it can't trap another Shandera.

edit: lol jolly scarf trio outruns 252 speed adamant doryuuzu? not very practical but maybe a nice way to just get rid of it. It'll ko 252 HP doryuuzu after sr+a layer of spikes, and easily cleans up those that don't invest in hp.

here's a new set based on me looking at some new moves it got:
Dugtrio @ Choice Scarf
252 atk/236 Spe/20 SpDef
Jolly / Arena Trap

Earthquake
Stone Edge
Aerial Ace/Toxic
Memento

 

[Wave⁂]

Scarf Dugtrio hits like a girl

And by "girl" I mean girl flatworm

 

[Wrath`]

I feel like I am the only one that uses Terakion (I want to call him Tekaron for some reason). I know he is good, but he just overshadowed by something else?


Terakion@ Expert Belt
Trait: Justice Heart
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Def
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
- Holy Sword

Stuck between SD and Rock Polish, wich do you guys think will benfit me more? Switching in and getting speed to win? Or power, survive a hit and then sweep? I am stuck.

 

[Gates]

if there was a marvel pokemon it would be broken as ****

There is. Arceus is already the top 4 Marvel characters wrapped into 1 pokemon.

Steel CM Arceus = Sentinel
Ghost CM Arceus = Storm
SD Arceus w/o Recover = Magneto
Any Defensive Arceus = Cable

Also, just for funsies:

Groudon = Cyclops
Kyogre = Psylocke
Dialga = Dr. Doom
Latias = Iron Man
Latios = War Machine
Deoxys = Strider
Scizor = Captain Commando
Darkrai = Blackheart
Mewtwo = Juggernaut
Wobbuffet = Spiral
Giratina-O = Gambit
Giratina = Colossus
Forretress = Ruby Heart
Lugia = BB Hood
Rayquaza = Cammy
Palkia = Adamantium Wolverine
Garchomp = Bone Wolverine
Manaphy = Dan
Mew = Servbot
Ho-Oh = Roll

Ditto is a better revenger of basically everything 99% of the time, but it can't trap another Shandera.

Uhh, yes it can. Ditto copies the opponent's abilities when it transforms, so if the opponent's Shanderaa has Shadow Tag then so will Ditto.

 

[Kofu]

Shadow Tag Pokémon can't trap one another.

 

[Gates]

Ah, you're right.

 

[mood4food77]

why isn't zyurema banned yet?

 

[PowerBomb]

I feel like I am the only one that uses Terakion (I want to call him Tekaron for some reason). I know he is good, but he just overshadowed by something else?


Terakion@ Expert Belt
Trait: Justice Heart
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Def
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
- Holy Sword

Stuck between SD and Rock Polish, wich do you guys think will benfit me more? Switching in and getting speed to win? Or power, survive a hit and then sweep? I am stuck.

I used SD Terakion. He's good and all, but Ditto absolutely obliterates him, as does ScarfChomp and other faster stuff. Plus it's weak to common priority, which is a shame. It also completely dies to Rain Dance. Maybe it's useful in a Drought/SandStorm team or something... it's outclassed by Dory though.

 

[kirbyraeg]

i keep forgetting that garchomp is legal.

but my tormentgar makes short work of him with toxic spikes support.

in fact, tormentgar. it's loads of fun.

 

[mood4food77]

still, why is the third legendary dragon still allowed?

it's offensive stats are absurd (130 in each attack and 95 speed) to go with friggen awesome bulk (125 HP with 90 defenses), seriously why isn't he banned yet?

i don't care if he's part ice type, we had problems with garchomp last gen and he's still a beast this gen (but the presence of weather limits him quite a bit) but this guy is better in every stat except for attack and speed (same attack, 7 points slower)

his movepool is limited but when he can run a simple set of:
Ice Beam
Dragon Pulse
Focus Blast
Filler

and promptly **** everything, we got issues

 

[Daddy Ash]

surely if he's part ice he's going to be much more susceptible to KOs
There are many more fire pokes in the metagame that can be speed boosted and no attack he possesses should cause them an issue except minus a HP ground/water? unless he can learn a move like earthquake/hydropump etc. he should be an easy target of a good fire type which (in my admittedly limited online battle experience) is a very common feature.
At best you'll get a KO, at worst you'll force a switch out, and if you've set up spikes/rocks it can punish the water/ground type they bring in to counter to your fire and get some extra early damage on the dragon on it's switch back in.
I could be wrong and if so don't flame me too much but i'd just thought I'd throw it out there...

 

[ss118]

Ice and Dragon is redundant STAB coverage. It lacks the fire move to hit the majority of its counters, and finally Kyruem or whatever finds itself easy to revenge kill.

It also has to resort to Outrage to beat Blissey, which essentially says "hey look, I'm dead."

Its defensive stats lose a lot of its perks when you consider that SR strips 25% of the poor dragon's health and spikes/ T-spikes are seen more and more each day. Then it takes damage from SS and it finds itself not lasting very often

 

[PowerBomb]

I don't find Kyurem difficult to deal with or offensively crazy. He's not like Dory, who can **** your entire team in SS if you don't have a weather changer or a priority abuser. Being revenge-killed by Scizor also makes him... suck.

 

[Circa]

Ah, you're right.

You played 4th gen Ubers and you couldn't remember that?

*shame finger*

 

[Gates]

still, why is the third legendary dragon still allowed?

it's offensive stats are absurd (130 in each attack and 95 speed) to go with friggen awesome bulk (125 HP with 90 defenses), seriously why isn't he banned yet?

i don't care if he's part ice type, we had problems with garchomp last gen and he's still a beast this gen (but the presence of weather limits him quite a bit) but this guy is better in every stat except for attack and speed (same attack, 7 points slower)

his movepool is limited but when he can run a simple set of:
Ice Beam
Dragon Pulse
Focus Blast
Filler

and promptly **** everything, we got issues

Ice typing is actually really really bad and it significantly affects any pokemon of that type. Kyurem automatically gains 3 common weaknesses and takes 25% damage from Stealth Rock. This makes his high HP stat nearly useless and gives him about the same bulk as Quagsire only with a far worse typing. I mean he's barely more defensive than Sazandora, who is another special attacking Dragon that's arguably better than Kyurem due to his increased speed while able to keep the same coverage and roughly the same power. Kyurem can't make use of his bulk since he has no recovery moves outside of Rest, so he'd have to sacrifice attack power and use Leftovers, which brings me to my next point.

His attacking stats aren't bad, but considering that he can't boost his attack or speed with anything besides Claw Sharpen (Which is like the most pointless boosting move since Howl), he's not nearly as good a sweeper as any other dragon that's viable in OU. Every other Dragon besides Altaria and Krimgan have higher attacking stats than him in either attack or special attack, better speed, access to a boosting move, or some combination of the above, and not a single one of them has worse typing.

• Axehead has absurdly high attack and can boost, and despite his terrible coverage he's able to muscle his way through his opponents on attack alone.
• Dragonite has higher attack, two boosting moves, a priority move, a recovery move, and an ability that reduces damage when he's at full health.
• Lati@s has boosting moves, recovery moves, and great speed.
• Garchomp has better speed, a boosting move, one of the best typings of any dragon despite a 4x Ice weakness, and a great ability in Sand.
• Kingrda has a boosting move and over 9000 speed in the rain.
• Flygon has better speed and typing. ****ING FLYGON.
• Sazandora is pretty much the only OU Dragon who you could argue is about even with Kyurem. Their typings are about equally bad with Sazandora having a slight advantage due to immunity to psychic moves and lack of weakness to Stealth Rock and immunity to ground. Their bulk is about the same once you factor in how much damage Kyurem takes from entry hazards. Their coverage is roughly equivalent with Kyurem using Ice, Dragon, Fighting, and Ghost and Sazandora using Dragon, Dark, Fighting, and filler. Their special attacks stats are high enough that it doesn't really matter how close they are to eachother, although Kyurem does have a better chance of fighting Chansey/Blissey. In the end though, Sazandora is faster and that means so much in Pokemon.

So Sazandora is really quite balanced and not difficult to deal with at all.

But if Nintendo bans him then whatever.

You played 4th gen Ubers and you couldn't remember that?

*shame finger*

I actually rarely used Wobbuffet on any of my teams in Gen IV Ubers. Mostly because Mirror Coat Tentacruel da bess.

Spoiler

And also because I run Mewtwo and Darkrai and don't want to get revenge killed all day by Scizor and Darkrai/Giratina-O. In fact, Wobbuffet is really easy to counter in Ubers since every team runs G-O or Darkrai.

 

[mood4food77]

wait...he learns claw sharpen? that actually would work well on him, it would increase his accuracy allowing him to use blizzard and focus blast more efficiently

 

[xxmoosexx]

Has anyone else thought about Choice Banded Axehead?
I've figured people would hop all over Choice Specs Sazzy and reaplace the void Latias left us with.
Dory is insane. I poop everytime i see him when i play PO at my friends house(when i try to DL it on mine it says file is corrupt blahblahblah). But Mach Punch Breloom takes care of it.
I like the Dark Ground Alligator.
I think the Water Fighting Unicorn will be pretty useful.
Victini seems has pros but some very bad cons that come with psychic typing.
Ruupushin is a machamp. I can imagine a Jirach Ruupushin core.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Rankurusu is a boss.

I sacrificed every single pokemon on my team vs. a stall team, KNOWING that the other guy had a taunt Skarmory, and swept anyway. cuz Rankurusu is just that baller.

 

[Wave⁂]

I really want to try a Rankurusu (or whatever its name is) with Calm Mind / Psychic / Filler / Trick Room. Set up some Calm Minds while your opponent sets up Spikes, thinking it'll be an easy revenge kill with CBTar or Shanderaa, then sexy sweeping action.

 

[Gates]

wait...he learns claw sharpen? that actually would work well on him, it would increase his accuracy allowing him to use blizzard and focus blast more efficiently

I don't know what I'm more angry at - the fact that you thought Kyurem's laughable physical movepool warranted the use of Claw Sharpen, the fact that the accuracy boost of Claw Sharpen on its own was enough to use without physical attacks, or the fact that you forgot that it also gives Draco Meteor 99 accuracy.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I think the best way to use this guy is to run a Substitute+Frozen World set. Stab 65 BP+Speed lowering might give him some options. Blizzard in hail/Ice Beam out, and if you give it max speed it can outspeed scarf 95's if they carelessly switch in. HP Fire is good coverage on steels, but Focus Blast does a decent job of that. Dragon Pulse is good against everything that isn't a steel-type.

Actually yeah I see why this thing isn't very good.

 

[Kofu]

Flygon may have a better typing, better movepool, and more Speed than Kyurem, but it's still a fairly bad Pokémon that's only good because people want it to be. It's not particularly powerful nor bulky.

UU this Generation, BL at best.

Kyurem hits insanely hard and wields two of the best attacking types, and has considerably more natural bulk than Flygon.

EDIT: See this, jrrrrrr has some good points about Kyurem.

 

[kirbyraeg]

So what, it's like a dragonite with some more SpAtk and speed that trades Multi-Scale for stab on Ice. Being weak to Bullet Punch doesn't do it any favors.

 

[Gates]

Flygon may have a better typing, better movepool, and more Speed than Kyurem, but it's still a fairly bad Pokémon that's only good because people want it to be. It's not particularly powerful nor bulky.

UU this Generation, BL at best.

Kyurem hits insanely hard and wields two of the best attacking types, and has considerably more natural bulk than Flygon.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Flygon isn't terrible. I'm saying that right now (and especially if Garchomp gets banned again) it will see more use than Kyurem because of its typing and speed.