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Inferno's Decarde, The Bowser Video & Critique Thread

Zigsta

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I wouldn't recommend jumping up to try and beat out Nado with an aerial. If you're on the ground, stay there and shield. Only time you should be trying to beat Nado with an aerial is if you're already in the air.

You're doing a much better job of jab canceling, but you still need to mix it up more. Right now your main mixup is ftilt, and honestly that was my most used when I first started jab canceling. As you play more and against more talented opponents, though, you'll realize how laggy ftilt is. It's one of my least used moves now. Jab>ftilt is nice to throw out early because your opponent--like this MK--can be conditioned to shield after the jab. Then you can Klaw or grab him. :)

Good fsmash KO. :) You still need to use it more as a spacing tool.

You're still jumping too much. Chillax, bro!

Overall, I see a lot more improvement. Keep it up!
 

Dre89

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I used to jab klaw, now I jab ftilt. Looks like I've gone backwards.

Apparently ftilt is usually safe on shield after tipped jab, so will jab1 space out the next jab1 to be tipped for ftilt?

:phone:
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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Thank you, Zigsta. I will work on other mixups I've been learning but have yet to use in practice. And yeah, I am starting to notice how laggy F-Tilt is at times.
 

Zigsta

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Ftilt is rarely if EVER safe on shield. I don't recommend it as a bread and butter move. You'll find that a lot of people can even simply airdodge through it.

So speaking of fsmash, godly story time:

When Logic and I played at Genesis 2 (Logic, PLEASE tell me you namesearch 'cuz this moment STILL kills me), we played on BF, and he asked who's better, me or KingKong. He said they played a while back, and KK used a lot of airdodge>Fortress, which I rarely do. I told Logic it's too easy to punish, especially against a character like Olimar.

Meanwhile I'm at like 170ish percents. Something stupid high. But you fellas have always heard my advice against Olimar: Don't look at your percents and just focus on getting your big hits in. Logic's at 0 still.

I get a grab near the right ledge. Pummel twice. He air releases off the stage. I charge fsmash, daring him to airdodge. He never does, so I fully charge that mofo. Olimar goes FLYING so far that even with a FULL chain of Pikmin, he DIES at 46%.

Logic goes "Well KingKong never did that."

Yeah, fsmash is a one hit kill move.

:phone:
 
D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
lol, awesome story. Wish that match was recorded.

Anyway. How do you recommend we approach MK? Klaw'ing him isn't working very well when he shuts it down with F-Air and Shuttle Loop. What I do is dash shield into jab/F-Tilt range and start boxing, maybe even grab when I get the chance. I rarely Klaw him from above.
 

Z'zgashi

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Imo against MK, dont contend with him in the air unless he commits to something you can beat out, and try to pressure him when he's landing. Not really much else I can say other than play safe, go for reads, and try to outplay him in the MU, cuz overall the MU reallys sucks lol.
 

Calm_Animal

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Yo ppl, do u guys mind give me some tips on how my bowser plays now? my last touranments was A-Kon. I got semi at it but lost to Denti first match 2 stocked, then last match 1 stocked with 47% i thought i would have got that match....:urg:. he came back on me... anyways i got some video for yall to give tips.. :bee:

Video here---------------->
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz_pazKag_w&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEXpy1piyXg&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItXM9BXB3Is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2314guhLqAk&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjYUhnDX2rs&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwZZskUvUDQ&feature=plcp
 
D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
Good matches, Calm_Animal. I would critique them if I were better and knew better. :p
 

DarkdeathEvilman

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You need to play a lot more grounded, especially against MK. You have a bad habit of fishing for Klaws--if they're out of your ftilt range, you jump and Klaw.

You should never jump when MK's on the ledge. That's asking to get Nadoed or Shuttle Looped. Stay grounded and patient.

You need to throw in jab cancels as mixups. Bowser needs them to add a (small) element of unpredictability and speed to his game.

Your Klawhopping's decent (albeit overused), but at times I felt like you were Klawhopping just to Klawhop, and you didn't seem to have a "plan." I like to feel out my opponent and see how they react to KHing in place and moving forwards/backwards. Sometimes I kinda hit a groove and get a feel for the battle more. It's hard to explain, but after a lot of playing, you'll feel when KHing is right.

If you use your double jump high up and fall straight down against MK, you're gonna get Nadoed. Bowser's airdodge sucks. Try to fall to the side--don't airdodge in place of the trajectory you're falling--or throw out dair or Bowser Bomb. Both beat Nado off the top if it's early enough in the attack and you're coming from the right angle. You'll almost always find Nado beats our AD, so you might as well try an attack.

Needs more fsmash!! For real, most rookie Bowsers don't use this enough/think it's a bad move/save it for KOs. It's an amazing spacing tool, beats airdodges, and is super handy. Start throwing it out more often and get a feel for it.

:phone:
Thanks Zigsta! So another question about dealing with Nado, aside from the dair or Bowser Bomb, is there any other move that can beat out tornado?(like more often than the situational chances for dair/bowser bomb) Or do you think it'd be best to just focus on avoiding situations where I could get punished by Nado?
 

Zigsta

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When in doubt, run from Nado. It's your safest option. Fortress beats it from below, and Klaw and nair beat it from a diagonal level but only at the beginning of the move.

:phone:
 

B!squick

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Um, hey, this is my second MM. It was from today morning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MQsuUDPLGY&feature=youtu.be

It's a Bo3, so please check it out.
Okay, let's see...

Game 1 - Aside from the fail jump release follow ups, that was some danm fine playing. Well done.

Game 2 - Okay, who is this really? :p

Game 3 - Awwww, lame.

Well, yeah, I don't think you successfully followed up one jump release. That and DSmash failures are probably what ended up tipping the scale against you. I don't like using DSmash even when it seems safe. 'Cause if they DI out of it, it's not.
 

Zigsta

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First of all Swei, I wanna say you've gotten a lot better and are clearly listening to the advice you've been given. So props!

Moving on to Olimar--you definitely need more basic understanding of the MU. Here's some biggies that stuck out to me:

-NEVER run up to Olimar and dash grab him from a long distance. You're asking to get spotdodged>grabbed or upsmashed. This goes for any character in Brawl. Pivot grabbing works nice instead, or charged upsmash if you can bait/predict the spotdodge, which is the usual reaction to someone running right up to you.

-When Olimar is in the air above you, stay directly beneath him and DO NOT JUMP. Olimar will either dair (if he's higher up), nair (if he's falling close to the ground--this will chain into upsmash typically), airdodge, or Whistle. Be patient and bait Olimar, then punish with upsmash, dsmash, Klaw, or pivot grab. Jumping up to meet Olimar is asking to get punished and you'll lose all your momentum.

-You're still using ftilt too much. You have a bad habit of covering empty Klaw Hops with it, which is honestly just a rookie habit. My advice: Play a ton of matches without using ftilt at ALL. It forces you to be more creative with your approaches, and you'll soon learn when's the best time to use ftilt. It's more of a bait move than a reflex, which is what it is for you as of now. If it helps, have a friend punch you every time you ftilt. I'm dead serious. I used to have a nasty spotdodge reflex, and my friend hit me every time I did it. I became more aware of it, and now I only spotdodge when it feels right, not because it's a reflexive habit.

-You're too aerial against Olimar. I know the initial reaction to having Pikmin thrown at you is to be on the air, but the Pikmin will still latch onto you, and then you're in the air to be jiggled or killed. Olimar's really good on the ground, but Jab literally beats all his Pikmin attacks if you time it right. Jab is a nightmare for Olimar, especially with jab canceling thrown in.

-I'm not sure if this was intentional or not, but good job getting that fsmash KO game 3 by using the purple Pikmin as an extended hitbox. Olimars typically throw purples at you when they're offstage so that they can knock you away from the ledge--if you can time an attack right, the Pikmin can extend your attack, almost always gimping Olimar in the process. This only works on purples since the rest latch onto you.

-Good job picking up on your opponent's weakness to jab>regrab. You'll find some opponents are more vulnerable to certain GR mixups than others. If you spot a possible habit to being GR'd, exploit it. Some people actually think jab>regrab is a true CG and don't realize they can spotdodge or attack. :)

-Throw in some Firebreath every now and then. It's got more range when fully charged than Olimar's pivot grab.

-Speaking of, try using pivot grabs more to punish landings. It helps. :)

-Be careful fsmashing Olimars on the ledge--it's a surefire way to get fair'd. However if you notice the Olimar likes to instant return, fsmash will beat him every single time. You'll find a lot of top Olimars like to use this since they typically can get off an attack quickly plus it looks fancy. I've fsmashed literally every top Olimar out of instant return multiple times.


Overall like I said, you've improved a lot, Swei. I know you'll get even better next time. :)

Kalm, I overlooked your videos. Will critique them next soon as I have time.
:phone:
 

Z'zgashi

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So I money matched one of the players in my state ranked above me who went marth in a best of 5, and I won 3-0 in the most hilarious games ever. Every single game I was losing but made some stupid read or comeback at the VERY end to win it, and it made him facepalm hard, was the best lol. I'll get it uploaded soon too, so once it is, critique would be awesome.
 

Zigsta

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Calm:

-When you're on the left side of the rock portion of PS1, don't go over to the right side unless your opponent comes over to you. Be patient and wait it out. Bowser can do janky stuff on the two ledges in that portion--it can lead to surprise counterattacks for you.

-Likewise on the rock portion, if an opponent is at the topmost portion of the stage, don't go up there and challenge him. You're just asking to get killed at earlier percents.

-When you're at high percents and the enemy is at low percents, never bair an enemy on a platform. If there's ever a chance your opponent will fish for KOs, that's one of them. This is a situation where I prefer to upsmash unless they're sitting in their shield--then just Klaw.

-Stop dash grabbing! It's too laggy and too punishable. Only dash grab when you're in the middle of a CG.

-You're too aerial against Kirby. He's better in the air--don't jump up there where he has an advantage.

-Upsmash is a better edgeguarding move against Kirby than fsmash if he's using a lot of Final Cutter.

-Watch your Fortress. You seem to be using it as a defensive reflex instead of a defensive tool. Throw out Klaws out of shield instead of just Fortressing into your opponent's shield.

:phone:
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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Thanks alot, Zigsta. I'll try my best. I want to beat one of the best here who uses Diddy Kong, and I think I'll be able to.

Anyway, if you don't recommend aerial approaches against Olimar, do I just run up to him, dash shield and just jab? I think that may put you in the risk of a grab.
 

Zigsta

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A lot of it depends on how often they grab versus how often they side B. A side B-ing Olimar is easy to approach on the ground. If you catch them mid toss, they won't be able to pivot grab/grab you fast enough. A lot of times I jab their Pikmin as I inch forward to put them closer to the ledge. If he doesn't have any purples, though, Klaw approaches work really well. You can also run in and SH Klaw to avoid the grab.

:phone:
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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I Klaw Hop alot in this MU because he can't do much if I approach diagonally. Is that alright?
 

Zigsta

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Approaching diagonally works great--you just need to keep an eye on where Olimar is so he doesn't upsmash you mid Hop or pivot grab when you're low to the ground.

:phone:
 

Zigsta

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Finally got some videos uploaded from Champion:

MM vs. Mr. R :marth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=dmv7-uuit2I

Haven't rewatched yet, but I remember not doing well. I was honestly about to drop dead at this point--I think this was around midnight. We had been trying to MM all day but never had time.

Bracket match vs. Shiro :wolf:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-2XTpHtlAM&feature=plcp

Wolf's always been an odd character for me. I never got to play Wolves before moving to SoCal, so it usually takes me a while to remember how to play the MU, and even then I run into silly stuff. Game 3 wasn't recorded but Shiro won last hit last stick on SV.

Friendlies vs. Ish :wolf:
Game 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE4VQuRlSVk&feature=plcp
Game 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDoMcDz3ah8&feature=plcp

Ish and I played a bunch the day before the tournament. These two were saved. I haven't seen them yet, so I don't remember how these went.


I don't get to play against Wolf often, so anything helps. :)

I'm also working on a different way to fight against top/campy/patient Marths, 'cuz ftilt doesn't work, haha. Shaya and Larry actually gave me some different ideas, so I'll be working on that.

:phone:
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
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Were you autopiloting during that first match with Shiro? You just jumped from the ledge every time.
You were also using UpB as something to cover everything, especially at the ledge. It seemed to get you punished and led to two of your deaths.
1 2

You actually used more of your moveset during the second match. When you used Firebreath the first time, I was like "WHOA, WHERE DID THAT FIRE COME FROM?"
You also connected more often. Might have just been familiarity with Wolf after the first game or something.
You replaced jumping from the ledge with attacking from the ledge, but it was actually kind of working.
IDK, just seemed more creative and comfortable in the second match.
Stealing that Dtilt ->Dsmash kill setup, BTW. Was pretty sexy.

About the ledge stuff, I don't really know the frame data for Bowser's ledge options (I'm assuming it could be summed up as "BAD"), but perhaps the threat of Fortress or Klaw could be used to deter people attempting to punish ledgerolls and getups? I don't know.

I'm still a scrub with Bowser, so please ignore anything I said that doesn't seem helpful.
You could also tell me that I'm wrong so I can do some of that "learning" stuff that people are talking about nowadays.
 

Cassius.

you're deadMEAT.
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This is directed at Zigsta...it may sound kind of harsh but I have no other way of really saying it lol

Now, it kind of upsets me that it took you a whole 80+ seconds to start klawing your landings against Marth. You could have done a lot better man. He was eating you alive until that one point, and then you reverted back to airdodging.

And what happened on the ledge at 1:50ish? You just NAird instead of going for the UpAir? lol

You also ran out of jumps waaaaay too early, I don't know what happened but he was taking extreme advantage of that. It's weird because I saw it immediately and it wasn't that visible but I guess he has great awareness...either that or the sign of you not doing anything in the air kinda gave it away.

And what's good with that air to air combat? You just sit there and take it from Marth? Especially at 2:23. You have to fight back! Get him out of your face! He was literally bullying you until you got to the ledge...it could have been a lot worse but you can't let him do that to you man.

Also, I have to point this out. The whole point of a trade in the Marth MU is to throw out the FTilt, and you're doing that. I'm glad. But it's not going to trade if you do it pre-emptively. You were throwing out the FTilts a second too early and you got punished for it every single time. FTilt doesn't work because your timing is off. You can't just throw it out the minute you see him running towards you. That only works a few times, or a lot of times against low-level Marths. But regardless, you gotta up those reflexes lol

That reflexive Up-B at 2:34 made me laugh. I know you must have facepalmed youreself when you did it too. In that instance I actually would have moved away instead of trying to hit him because when you hit Marth with the late UpB he has a myriad of options to get you with because you're a sitting duck. He could UpB, he could NAir-combo you, FAir, walk up and proceed to do stuff, etc.

And lastly, at the end. If you're going to fall that far AND you see him following you, you have to do something about it. This is what I was talking about earlier with fighting back. You could have jumped and airdodged, you would have took a weak UpB from Ramin trying to come back. It would have sent you halfway across FD but you'd still be alive. Or you could have jumped and did FAir and got him out of your face (or actually dead from a stage spike, who knows)...you have to be creative with your recovery. Marth can bully the **** out of you. You know this.

I got all of this from the first match. I'm watching the second one now.

Second match, I have to point out the first thing I see.

Bowsers...if any exist, take note of this. You need to start paying attention. Get that awareness up! Enough of this UpSmash/UTilt shield pressure ****. Just grab them and keep it moving. At 3:05, you see Marth's UpSmash ending. There's no way in hell you'd be able to catch him with an UpSmash dude. The best option would be to short hop up, and klaw him. It beats anything Marth can do, literally except UpB or a spotdodge (I think) but who would really be thinking about that? In fact, Ramin proceeds to put his shield up anyway, so if you actually had Klawed you would have had him, with a free 19% on him early.

Great, and I really mean it, great job on charging the UpSmash though, you still tried to get the most mileage out of it. I wouldn't have thought of that in that situation honestly lol. good stuff.

I see you finally fighting back at 3:14. Good job.

Why would you roll off of the ledge when you see him near the SD point. You should have just did a normal get-up and proceeded to re-grab the ledge. You know how to speedhug or whatever they call it, right? The QCF motion to grab the ledge quickly? That would've ended his stock if you did the right ledge decision.

You should try to get out of the habit of trying to UpB your way out of every situation. 3:27 is where I'm looking.

----------

Oh hold the phone, I just read what you said about that MM. I guess Ramin was just taking advantage of the fact that your reflexes were a bit dumbed down then. Because he took your first stock with total ease. I didn't see any response from you lmao.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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Good matches, Zigsta. I think you could have done better against Mr.R, though. It would be an honor just to fight against him, and you did just that.

Skinutski, your Bowser, as I said before, is pretty good. But I feel that you're misusing some attacks. I see you throw out alot of F-Air and B-Air when they are most likely not safe, and you should definitely use Klaw more. You do some strange things, but if it works for you there, you should probably keep doing it. Oh, and do more Grab Release shenanigans.
 

Uncle

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Watch Zig fight Ramin reminds me of how my matches against Kadaj usually go. :smirk:

Seriously, though, why would you accept an MM with him while you're tired? You wanna be 100% while fighting this guy of all people, and I think that you could have potentially won the set if you were. ;)
 

Zigsta

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I just wanted to play him. Figured I make enough of a paycheck to spend an extra five bucks.

:phone:
 

Zigsta

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Zigsta MM mike haze.
We actually haven't been able to play for like 6 months or so. He TOs almost all SoCal tournaments, so it's difficult to play him outside of tournament matches, but I'll see what I can do. :)

Swei, I'm very busy this week but will check out your matches as soon as I can.

:phone:
 

Jrugs

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We actually haven't been able to play for like 6 months or so. He TOs almost all SoCal tournaments, so it's difficult to play him outside of tournament matches, but I'll see what I can do. :)

Swei, I'm very busy this week but will check out your matches as soon as I can.

:phone:
Hell yeah zigstas gonna comeback to the southwest a god.
 

B!squick

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@Swei
-Not enough Klaw when Snake was recovering. Klaw makes you hit the Cipher or whatever that thing is called and since all you did was grab Snake and deal no damage...
-Not enough Firebreath verses 'nade spam. Firebreath knocks them right back.
-Not enough DI during Snake's NAir.
-Not enough proper GR follow ups. You kept going for DTilt when Snake wasn't at KO percents and you were only hitting with it about half the time.

-... I don't know what to say about that Peach match, bro. More UpBoos. Get better at GR. Less of everything else.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
Sure thing. But do note that I am rather inexperienced compared to others like Zigsta, Limit and Flayl...I can defenitely help you in this case, though.

Alright, here we go.

I noticed that there were many instances where you would throw out attacks or grab at the wrong moment:

D-Air: You D-Air too much. Try covering your landings with Klaw more, as it does cover some ground below you.

B-Air: You used it on somewhat punishable grounds a few times as well. Refrain from using this unless it's for gimping or killing close to the ledge, as this is it's true purpose.

F-Air: Going offstage for a possible F-Air is rather predictable...try using B-Air unpredictably as they're coming back or getting up from the ledge instead. Oh, and a good use I found to it is by using retreating SHF-Air as a more defensive option.

Firebreath: If used, use it sparingly, one short burst at a time for spacing purposes. You used it many times punishably and actually got punished for it. Try to not use it so up-close as well, as it lags a ton on start-up.

Klaw: Use it more- Alot more. This goes to SH Klaw: It's arguably your best approach. You just used grounded Klaw most of the time and it didn't connect most of the time. Aerial Klaw has a huge disjointed hitbox that beats alot of attacks.

Bowser Bomb: Now, we all know how punishable is to throw this move out just like that...don't use it unless it's to grab the ledge quickly or when you're sure it'll hit (usually you should use it as a follow up after a Jab for a kill).

Grabs: I've seen you miss a few grabs. Don't just go for the grab- Make a follow-up that leads to it. My personal favorite and that often works is Jab to Grab.

Jab Cancel. It's really a big part of what Bowser is made of, aside from GR...which can lead to more Jab Cancels.

Try these follow-ups:

Jab to Grab
Jab to Klaw
Jab to F-Tilt
Jab to D-Tilt (works to get a kill)

Note that these aren't garanteed on some characters, as Bowser has some openings between attacks. But you should try it out.

You should remain more grounded and Shield/Power Shield your attacks, more. My personal approaches consist of Dash Shield and start Jab Canceling. Which reminds me- Jab more, it's one of Bowser's best moves.

Oh, and against campy characters like Samus...I personally like to get through their projectiles by SH airdodging and PS'ing them.

Sorry for the huge wall of text.
 

Z'zgashi

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RIZEN, when UT next goes to CO/you guys come to us, Ill give you some pointers in person k?
 
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