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In Defense of Psychic Children

Veril

Frame Savant
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,062
Location
Kent Lakes, New York
I've played Lucas since Brawl first came out in the states. Despite his flaws, I've stuck with him, making a lot of mistakes along the way.

When the tier list first came out, I didn't assume that it was far off. I just thought that Lucas had incredible potential with his wacky momentum altering tricks. So I experimented, and experimented, and messed around with zapjumping and all sorts of psi-m tricks and magnet pull manipulation. I though I knew all sorts of things everyone had missed. Of course, I was wrong. I ignored the advice of players better than myself, and it slowed down my game. More than anything else, I should have been focused on knowing of and compensating for Lucas' weaknesses.

Lucas is not a statistically good character. The reasons for this are spread out on this forum and I don't feel the need to reiterate all of them. Weaknesses can be worked around, and sometimes even turned into strengths. For example, some say that Lucas is easy to edgeguard. This is completely false if you have a second jump left. Since I've basically mastered wavezapping I nearly never get koed off the bottom or even spiked successfully. Beyond that correct angling of PKT2 can bypass an edgehog easily and relatively safely. Oh, and there's the rope snake. Don't forget that. Another good example would be his laggy grab. It sucks, hard. So pivot grab. Not great but... better.

People ***** about the deathgrab a lot. I hate it too. But it isn't nearly as bad as an IC grab. Not getting grabbed is actually easier than it sounds with Lucas, f-tilt, pk-fire, autocancel properly, and you'll be much safer. If you do get grabbed, make sure to DI right and spotdodge ASAP. Still a ****ty situation, but it doesn't make Lucas a non-viable character.

Lucas has poor approaching ability, but good spamming. I could go on.


The tier list is valid. Period. The people who make it know what they are talking about. You have to take advantage of the psychological effects of the tier list rather than letting them bog you down. Lucas has many poor matchups, this is a good reason to have a secondary. Skill is more important than character ability but... a hard counter is a hard counter is G&W. Of course, G&W isn't the only one, just the worst. If you don't have a secondary, you better have a ton of experience. At the same time, few people have experience vs. good Lucas players. Lots of people get grab-happy because everyone knows about the death grab. An opponent might get sloppy if they expect an easy win, and then panic when they see you aren't about to get 3-stocked.

The fact that Lucas is fun to play is so important, it provides the incentive to make him a better more viable character. We want him to win, we want OUR Lucas to be great even if Lucas himself isn't. You have a significant psychological advantage in a match if you have the advantage, use it. Recognize the faults, maximize the advantages, f*** with people whenever possible. pk-fire.

-Veril



On a side note, Lucas is insane for teams... I'll post something on that eventually.
 

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,335
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
I think it's basically a pep talk to Lucas players to not give up because he's low tier and/or take advantage of his low tier-ness and relative obscurity to pull out surprise after surprise in matches.

At least that's what I got out of it.
 

Veril

Frame Savant
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,062
Location
Kent Lakes, New York
I think it's basically a pep talk to Lucas players to not give up because he's low tier and/or take advantage of his low tier-ness and relative obscurity to pull out surprise after surprise in matches.

At least that's what I got out of it.
yup, that's basically it.
 

ChaosTheoryX

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
1,139
Location
Wichita, Ks
I dont thinkg this pep talk was in vain...ill admit that even I have had thoughts about dropping lucas, but my want to do great with him, and hes fun as hell to play with. I think that veril did a great job. Sometimes you might think that you dont need a pep talk like this but it can never hurt
 

Zephron

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 26, 2008
Messages
697
Location
Among the trees in Minnesota
It hurts, bad.

I think it sticks so freaking bad that I have to have a secondary just because Lucas has so many bad matchups. I've been trying to get around them as hard as I can, but it frankly sucks how many Marth and G&W players there are. And you know what, Olimar is pissing me off bad too.

Thanks for the pep talk, but right now all I want to do is find a secondary. A good one.
 

Neon Ness

Designated Procrastinator
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
3,631
Thanks for the pep talk, but right now all I want to do is find a secondary. A good one.
Meta Naito. The word "matchup" means nothing to him, anyway.

On a serious note, I wonder if anyone actually has Meta Knight as a secondary. Seems like anyone who does use him mains him. I use him sometimes just for fun...
 

ChaosTheoryX

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
1,139
Location
Wichita, Ks
Meta Naito. The word "matchup" means nothing to him, anyway.

On a serious note, I wonder if anyone actually has Meta Knight as a secondary. Seems like anyone who does use him mains him. I use him sometimes just for fun...
ive made meta knight a personal ban for myself. It would be hypocrtical of me to say how I hate mk so much, and turn around and play him. I actually semi (almost never) use G&W as a secondary. Hes just extremely easy to play, and hes considered lucas' worst match -up so learning his play style and moves can be extremely beneficial.
 

Noraa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
1,106
Location
Laurel, Md
my secondary is olimar =].

never will i use mk in tourny smh.

My lucas is top tier, n!ggas aint got **** one me =].

N my lucas crew. S.notty N.osed K.ids

{[SNK]}
 

~Pink Fresh~

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
4,180
Location
Maryland
my secondaries are luigi and diddy
diddy for marth. idk how that works but it does lol.
and
G&W is so much easier with luigi. getting kills at like 50%-70% on G&W is too good :)
 

Irsic

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
929
Location
Michigan
My secondary is Diddy, but I still get ***** by Falco. He's my worst matchup. :[ I have to play like there is NO tomorrow to win that matchup. Sucks pretty bad.

The problem about Game & Watch is he can consistently punish Lucas, but he is light. I've never played an amazing G&W, but the problem with most G&W players is that they are aggressive, and fall into patterns. Generally can become easy to predict. I find him to be beatable if you play with extreme precaution.

Also Pink, Diddy should be able to beat Marth pretty easily, so :D
 

~Pink Fresh~

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
4,180
Location
Maryland
My secondary is Diddy, but I still get ***** by Falco. He's my worst matchup. :[ I have to play like there is NO tomorrow to win that matchup. Sucks pretty bad.

The problem about Game & Watch is he can consistently punish Lucas, but he is light. I've never played an amazing G&W, but the problem with most G&W players is that they are aggressive, and fall into patterns. Generally can become easy to predict. I find him to be beatable if you play with extreme precaution.

Also Pink, Diddy should be able to beat Marth pretty easily, so :D
i was wondering why i always beat marth so easily with diddy lol.
and well for falco i just edgeguard him it is EXTREMELY easy. let's see if i can explain how i do it. really all you need is good PKT edgeguard skills and you can do it.

when faced with falco once they are offstage start up a PKT.
they're recovery can only go in a straight line so it's really easy to predict. you have to use the tail for this. ya i know it sounds weird but.. use the tail. now take the PKT and send it so the tail is on the same level as falco, while the the PKT is as close to the stage as possible. now matter what falco tries he can't get past the tail. he can't reflect it because it'll still be in lucas' control. now this is where it starts to take work. falco should run into the tail and try to 1) side B again if he is above stage or two start up his up b because he is below stage. if 1 they will hit the tail again until either you run out of PKT or they are too low and forced to start their up B. once they start they're up B loop it around and hit them with the side of it. this process should result in an easy stage spike. now if you run out of PKT when they start the up B... grab the edge.

see it's easy... well not exactly easy but... ya lol.
other than edgeguarding i have a pretty rough time with falco too though lol.
and

irsic, say you run across a defensive G&W what will you do if you're lucas?
 

Irsic

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
929
Location
Michigan
irsic, say you run across a defensive G&W what will you do if you're lucas?
Bait the bucket. <_< Otherwise G&W can't approach. PK Freeze is a really easy way to bait the bucket. PK Fire you can't stop, and PK Thunder you can't end exactly when you want to. The bucket has intense ending lag so I bait that out. Other than that, I've only encountered one defensive G&W and the defensive game really sucked for him.

Also interesting Falco edgeguard stuff. My main problem is fighting him on the stage though, but I'll have to get some testing in with the tail.
 

Nitrix

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
867
Location
London, Ontario
irsic, say you run across a defensive G&W what will you do if you're lucas?
His bucket is laggy, if you can bait him then you've got a free throw or smash.

Also Pink, Diddy should be able to beat Marth pretty easily, so :D
You better be sarcastic. Marth is a monster.
 

~Pink Fresh~

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
4,180
Location
Maryland
oh
onstage against falco i suggest you do well with Dair. idk why but i seem to be able to approach easily with dair. when in close it's easy as ever; jab and ftilt comes out too fast for falco to do anything. it's easy to force an approach only because you can just sit there with your magnet out and it baits approaches. if they don't approach slowly "magnet approach". just get closer and closer by using magnet stopping magnet and yeahhh.
usually just magneting will force an approach though.
 

Levitas

the moon
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
5,734
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
It's really a good idea to try to condition your opponent to shield your nairs. This is really a key element in winning. BTW, you don't want them shielding your Dairs.
 

ChaosTheoryX

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
1,139
Location
Wichita, Ks
It's really a good idea to try to condition your opponent to shield your nairs. This is really a key element in winning. BTW, you don't want them shielding your Dairs.
too true . I broke my friend's shield today by chaining 2 neutral airs to a down smash :laugh:
 

themrskills

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
183
Location
Closer to the wii every day.
I too have used lucas since brawl came out, and before then checked the dojo every day in the off chance of updates about lucas (I used Ness in Melee/MeleeN64). Honestly, I don't care where a character is on the tier list. Anyone can be good. (props to Taj/Mewtwo)
 

Levitas

the moon
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
5,734
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
On that topic, I went even with some dude's lucario in a set today playing pit, then 3stocked him twice with metaknight.
 

ChaosTheoryX

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
1,139
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Wichita, Ks
Not a chance. A good Diddy player is untouchable.
would have to say you are very wrong here. We have a very good diddy main here (he beat m2k in pools at hobo 11) and our games are always neck and neck. dont get me wrong the fight is hard as hell, but diddy is far from untouchable
 

Irsic

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
929
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Michigan
It was a slight exaggeration (heh) but in honesty what I mean is that a good Diddy should be Marth. -.-
 

Levitas

the moon
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
5,734
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Also Pink, Diddy should be able to beat Marth pretty easily, so :D
You better be sarcastic. Marth is a monster.
Not a chance. A good Diddy player is untouchable.
...provided you are playing on a flat stage with no platforms (i.e. final destination)
lulz, props to myself for that massive quote web
indeed
I'm thinking marth does quite well on primarily aerial stages too, such as rainbow cruise.
 

Irsic

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
929
Location
Michigan
You've never faced a good Marth.
The hell I haven't. Marth doesn't even have that many tricks. I'm pretty convinced that you don't know the devastation a good Diddy player can do.

And I do know about Marth's glide toss. z_z
 
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