Ike Frame Data - 3.02

[KuroganeHammer]

It's ok if you don't want to write it, no pressure, I guess I could write it or ask around. If it comes to that I'd probably force you to take a look at it though to make sure nothing silly has been written.

Edit:

Thread updated. Still want metroid1117 to do that thing tho. :D

 

[TylerX5]

Vwins is a very good Ike player

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm not sure who that is though.

Also have I mentioned that this is basically 100% done? I might have to use it as a template for all my other threads. I'm contemplating adding throw KB and BKB information but iunno.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

If you guys don't think I'll f*** it up I'd be happy to write that. I'm not a high level player, but I know Ike. 'Course metroid should take a looksie at it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Just as long as we're clear that I'm looking for facts, not opinions (which is why I'm hesitant to add doubles partners).

Example of a fact: "Key techniques: Marth is heavily reliant on wavedashing" or "Defensive power: Ike has above average weight making him difficult to knock back"

An example of opinion is something like: "Playstyle: Zelda should be played as an offensive rushdown combo powerhouse because she has big hitboxes."

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Makes sense. I'll finish that up in a day or two.

 

[GP&B]

I could also put in some small tidbits like that as well if needed.

For now, I'm working on Ike's hitbox data to go alongside the numbers you've compiled here. There's a couple of interesting nuances including particular visual cues for FAF's as well as where and how the tip and blade/hilt boxes operate. Certain properties like QD are better explained through what metroid provided, but I'll go ahead and provide the swing hitbox itself (it reaches really damn far).

 

[Commander]

Aerodrome, can you post an image of Eruption's hitboxes? I want to know where the spike hit box is and how it works, for ex: does it not work if you overlap with non-spike hitboxes? Also I want to see how big the the OHKO box. Its a really fun way to test another person's patience.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I want to know where the spike hit box is and how it works, for ex: does it not work if you overlap with non-spike hitboxes?.

It won't work if it overlaps with other hitboxes.

 

[Commander]

Thanks so much Aerodrome. I really wasn't expecting gifs so I really appreciate it. The spike hit box is that very small one at the bottom right? It is smaller than I thought it was so I should be able to space it better now. I'm going to have a lot of fun with max range OHKOs. I wonder how many people will actually fall for it in tourney. There is always at least one when I did it before but with max range I hope it will be a few more. If shields and counters don't work on that hit box, do air dodges and rolls also still get hit?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

also

Makes sense. I'll finish that up in a day or two.

:>

<:

etc

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Thanks so much Aerodrome. I really wasn't expecting gifs so I really appreciate it. The spike hit box is that very small one at the bottom right? It is smaller than I thought it was so I should be able to space it better now. I'm going to have a lot of fun with max range OHKOs. I wonder how many people will actually fall for it in tourney. There is always at least one when I did it before but with max range I hope it will be a few more.

I'll be honest, those gifs aren't mine, I had the location of them saved, lucky I did since the original source disappeared off the face of the internet.

OHKO is massive in hitbox size and stays around forever. lul

double post because I'm a woman

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Insert awkward anime back-of-head scratching gif here.

I have it half-finished on my laptop, I'll finish up the rest and put it here tonight. (Blame Dark Souls. Or Dark Souls 2.)

 

[metroid1117]

I'll be honest, those gifs aren't mine, I had the location of them saved, lucky I did since the original source disappeared off the face of the internet.

OHKO is massive in hitbox size and stays around forever. lul

It looks like you got these from Monk's old hitbox thread for 2.1. The hitboxes for Eruption have been shrunken since then, so it's not quite the same size as it is in 3.0.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yeah that's where I got them from, thanks!

I just checked the hitboxes, they look the same size visually, so if they shrunk, it wasn't by an amount that is extremely noticeable.

If shields and counters don't work on that hit box, do air dodges and rolls also still get hit?

Yes, intangibility from rolls and other things mean that for all intents and purposes your hurtboxes aren't there at all.

Invincibility is actually weaker than intangibility, I believe that there's a flag that can be set onto a move which IGNORES invincibility completely (starman, angel platform, belay etc), but that's just trivia, i don't think there's a move in any smash game that uses it.

 

[Rayzorium]

How does light/medium/heavy/super armor work? I feel bad about asking but the internet is surprisingly barren on this info. All I could find on the wiki is that "super" armor no longer exists, but that doesn't seem to be the case if you're using the same terminology here.

I understand light armor ignores all knockback up to 7%. I assume super armor ignores all knockback, period. What about medium and heavy?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Give me a minute to find some food and I'll explain EVERYTHING to you about "super armor".

 

[KuroganeHammer]

How does light/medium/heavy/super armor work? I feel bad about asking but the internet is surprisingly barren on this info. All I could find on the wiki is that "super" armor no longer exists, but that doesn't seem to be the case if you're using the same terminology here.

I understand light armor ignores all knockback up to 7%. I assume super armor ignores all knockback, period. What about medium and heavy?

You are correct in saying that there is light/medium/heavy/super armor. Even most Project M BR members don't realise that there are still some remnants of super armor in their game.

Let me break it down:

Light Armor: Probably the most common of the armors. The in-game designation is knockback of 80. This is basically JUST enough knockback to put people into a tumble and is not related to % at all. If you have a move that deals 999% but doesn't have enough knockback to put you into a tumble, then light armor will absorb it, for example.

This knockback armor is approximately equal to 2580 units per 1000 frames (You know that max launcher speed stat? Yeah, that's what this number is.)

Medium Armor: Slightly stronger than light armor. In-game designation is 120.

Heavy Armor: Stronger still! This will absorb attacks which deal knockback of ~6450 units per 1000 frames (which is basically just enough knockback to ALMOST kill Ike vertically). In-game designation is 200.

Super Armor: Found on Ike's fully charged Eruption. Possibly found elsewhere? I don't know, I haven't looked at every character myself yet! This super armor is impossible to break through; no matter how much % you're on or how much knockback a move does to you, attacks will never, ever, EVER break through.

%-based Armor: This used to be found on things like Snake's Up B in Brawl. I don't know if it's been removed from P:M, but I doubt it has been. Guess I just have to find it myself! :D

So yeah, that's how armor works!~

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

@ metroid1117 : Fact check plz?

CHARACTER STATS

Difficulty: Easy to pick up, hard to keep going.

Ike has a lot of power and coverage behind his swings, with wide, sweeping hitboxes and considerable knockback on nearly all of his moves save his jab. Project M's amendments to Quick Draw and across-the-board reduction to endlag, as well as the general physics changes, Ike's sped-up initial dash and the introduction of L-Cancelling have all contributed to mitigate the sluggishness that held Ike back in Brawl.

That said, it is easy to realize that Ike isn't merely Marth plus Ganon in Project M. His moves have considerable start-up and need to be spaced and timed properly to avoid being swatted out of, and Ike just so happens to have a good combo weight for a lot of the cast. Ike in turn has a somewhat non-intuitive combo game, lacking the weaker moves that can easily chain into others. Comboing with Ike requires you to make extensive use of his throws and his Quick-Draw to cover large gaps quickly, giving him a rather unique combo game in comparison to most of the cast. Aether and Quick Draw are excellent recovery tools, especially with Aether's horizontal distance having been buffed and Ike having gained the ability to wall-jump twice out of Quick Draw, but his infamous 'dead zone' that he can't recover from still exists on stages without walls. Lastly, while the ability to jump out of Quickdraw has made it an incredibly versatile tool with a plethora of options that Ike can utilize out of it, using it effectively takes a mixture of fast fingers and a good tactical awareness to pick the right option in the right situation.

In sum, Ike is a character that requires a lot of practice, patience, and upkeep, one that is incredibly versatile and deep and very rewarding if you stick with him.

Style: Hun, please.

Cape. Headband. Sword larger than Ganondorf. Mighty yell of fury while recovering from the depths of Green Hill Zone. Two OHKO moves. And best of all: A Mercenary group that doesn't have Slippy the Frog, but does have an axe-wielding red-haired demoness of war on horseback. And last, but not least: "You'll get no sympathy from me." Your move, Star Fox.

Defensive power: ... Hun, please.

Out of shield options? What are those?

Well, Ike does have a pretty fast bair - which only works on characters behind him ... that are tall enough ... and perhaps in the air ... At least Ike's grab range is good? And his Wavedash OoS is pretty good as well? And Counter out of shield can situationally work and get off a surprise hit? But that's pretty much where it ends, though. Up-Smash and Up-B are both terrible OoS options and Ike lacks any good, get-off-me-now moves, making coping pressure one of his weak spots. He's a Fire Emblem character, all right. You need to mind your spacing impeccably, because if your space is invaded, it's difficult to get someone out.

Offensive power: Level: Ike

Marth meets Falcon meets Ganon. Massive range and disjoint: Even if the tip has the overall lowest knockback, it's still excellent for comboing and spacing. Quick Draw can cover large distances quickly, which means Ike threatens a lot of space all at once when he's on the ground. Ike's combo game is non-intuitive but terrifying, his wide aerials together with his amazing recovery prowess give him a strong edge-guarding game and his dash-dance combined with his Quick Draw and general good mobility bestow upon him a strong neutral game. Ike's not the sort of character you make mistakes around.

Approach strength: Above average to great

Quick Draw's versatility cannot be overstated here. Ike has a lot of flexibile approach options: His aerials, QD Attack, grab, all of which can even be reversed. Dash-Dancing, while overall less effective in Project M, still has its place and Ike happens to have an excellent initial dash. It loses points for still being somewhat linear while unpredictable, but Ike's approach is still very strong.

Combo ability: Excellent

Ike has great ground and air mobility, which combined with his arcing attacks provide him with a lot of follow-ups out of his throws. Getting grabs are easier for Ike than most and his combo game even without them is very potent. He possesses good juggle strings, strong platform coverage with Nair, Fair and Uair and has enough power that when most cast members are getting to the percentage that they can't be combo'd as easily, they're simply dying outright to Ike. In a way, it's the opposite of Marth syndrome: Slightly more limited options at low percents, good finishing power at high percents.

Key techniques:

a) Quick Draw: SHFFL, Grab, USmash, Wavedash, RAR Bair, Chaingrab, Walljump. Learn to do these, learn to love it.

b) DACUS: Ike's DACUS makes a good punish and combo option, and allows him to more easily cover certain ranges with his USMash that his QD, due to the fixed initial distance limitation, can't. It's an excellent Fthrow follow-up on floaties around kill percents.

c) Chaingrabs: Ike has a few. A Dthrow chaingrab on some floaties, a Uthrow chaingran on spacies and some other fast-fallers and regrabs out of Quick-Draw with poor DI on floaties. With strong finishers out of these and a good edge-guard game, this can be an effective way to rack up a ton of damage, or end someone's stock real quick.

Doubles partner options:

Maybe I'll attempt this later.

 

[metroid1117]

Looks great so far! I'd hesitate to call Ike's combo game "Excellent" though, since guaranteed followups out of grabs are uncommon if the opponent knows how to DI out and, as you pointed out, he doesn't really have that many moves with low knockback and speed that other characters typically combo with. His combo game isn't bad by any means, but I'd save adjectives like "excellent" for characters like Fox, Marth, or Falcon rather than on Ike.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'll cut doubles partners. Too hard and too subjective.

I think that a lot of the description for difficulty could be moved to other areas, example "wide sweeping hitboxes & knockback etc" could be moved to offensive power while his weight could go into the defensive power section describing the positive (hard to kill) and negative (easy to combo/string) effects of it.

I think style should maybe describe Ike as a rushdown character somewhere since I can't see him fitting into any other fighting game character archtype. Titania is good too though. <:

Also just one last thing, I think that category descriptions should fit a more recognised system, people may not know what "Power Level: Ike" is so maybe something like:

Weak
Below Average
Average
Above Average
Strong/Excellent/Great/whatever

What do you think, @ Thane of Blue Flames ?

 

[TylerX5]

I think his Dsmsh (first hit only ) should get an honorary mention as a great way to send someone off the stage

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'll cut doubles partners. Too hard and too subjective.

I think that a lot of the description for difficulty could be moved to other areas, example "wide sweeping hitboxes & knockback etc" could be moved to offensive power while his weight could go into the defensive power section describing the positive (hard to kill) and negative (easy to combo/string) effects of it.

I think style should maybe describe Ike as a rushdown character somewhere since I can't see him fitting into any other fighting game character archtype. Titania is good too though. <:

Also just one last thing, I think that category descriptions should fit a more recognised system, people may not know what "Power Level: Ike" is so maybe something like:

Weak
Below Average
Average
Above Average
Strong/Excellent/Great/whatever

What do you think, @ Thane of Blue Flames ?

Sure, I can put in a more formal rewrite soon when my professors aren't trying to destroy my GPA.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Idk what GPA is, but it sounds important, so good luck!

 

[standardtoaster]

GPA = Grade Point Average. stop being foreign, aerodrome, cmon

 

[internetmovieguy]

Use the force.

Ike with a lightsaber!
this needs to be made.
Edit:
Actually Marth and Roy should also get lightsaber saber costumes.

 

[SpiderMad]

Frame Window Leniency to Autocancel when done in a SH (by doing it ASAP or otherwise close to)
Nair 2
Fair 1 (ASAP)
Bair 9
Up-air 5
Dair 1 (ASAP)

Surprised the window for Up-air is 5

Window For Actionable Frames for a DJ/WL/AGT when done ASAP from a SH
Only Bair: 2

Someone calculate how hard SH Bair DJ Bair Nair is, I think you'd need some data on how much height in frames double jump adds.

 

[GP&B]

So, I discussed recording visual hitbox data back in general discussion a month back and now that I've settled into a new job (yay, funds) + really getting back into the tournament scene, I'm going to find the time to capture every move to add alongside the data that Aerodrome's helpfully provided. I'm also thinking of adding in cues and notes for certain properties like IASA and strong/weak hitboxes. I'm completely fresh to recording gifs so I'll need some time to practice so I can make the cleanest gifs possible.

 

[SpiderMad]

What will be your cue method for IASA and Autocancel? I have suggested changing the background color of Brawlbox for the specific frames but my friend suggested that would ugly, so he attempted to find a way to change the color of hurtboxes to indicate such but wasn't able to. This was going to be for a video on Autocancels and IASA

What might be best is a little blue dot to indicate Autocancel (for both the beginning and end peroids, like 1-4 and 30-39), and a little red square to indicate IASA (and then leaving it there until the move ends), appearing somewhere in the corner of the gif, but having Ike change color himself would probly be easier to see

 

[GP&B]

I can change the scene lighting dramatically to highlight IASA's. I'll take some screens later tonight and ask what you think. If not that then I was thinking of just following how monk listed super armors and whatnot.

 

[GP&B]

@ SpiderMad @ KuroganeHammer Here's the sample:

Spoiler: Frame before IASA begins

Spoiler: First frame of IASA

I'm surprised with the results myself. It looks really good, but I might go with another color if you think I should try something more clear. I was thinking of using blue instead to represent intangibles but I'm just going to display hurtboxes for that.
EDIT: Ignore the attachment, accidentally put that in and don't know how to remove it.

 

[standardtoaster]

removed the attachment for you

 

[KuroganeHammer]

@ SpiderMad @ KuroganeHammer Here's the sample:

Spoiler: Frame before IASA begins

Spoiler: First frame of IASA

I'm surprised with the results myself. It looks really good, but I might go with another color if you think I should try something more clear. I was thinking of using blue instead to represent intangibles but I'm just going to display hurtboxes for that.
EDIT: Ignore the attachment, accidentally put that in and don't know how to remove it.

Looks good.

I have no idea how you did it though since I don't use BrawlBox at all. =P

 

[SpiderMad]

Use what colors you think fit, but what's your idea for autocancels (and when the autocancel window overlaps with the IASA). Try doing bair as a full out example

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Move:

Autocancel > hitboxes > autocancel > IASA (if applicable)

 

[GP&B]

Had to look through and see what represents the autocancel since I never looked into it before (it's RA-Bit[30] being set to false, meaning landing lag is not incurred).

BAir
AC: 1-4, 30-end
IASA: 36
EDIT: Added initial AC frames because the bit isn't set until 4 frames after.
I'm not going to be writing down all the frame data because that would be redundant. Just wanted to make sure I was matching up the right info in BBox.

And because aerials only make up 5 moves, I'll probably just put an "Autocancel" indicator on and after the frames it is available and continue using scene lighting to indicate IASA. It's in the same fashion that super armor is marked on Eruption as well.

EDIT: Now as for actually recording these, what's the usual format for this? 60FPS? 30FPS? Change view based on range of move (like panning out for Aether or moves that cover a lot in front of him)? The other thing I really wish I knew was how PM does SCD so I can identify exactly how low you can land aerials (very handy for knowing how to hit shorties with Bair). I'd like to get to work on this as soon as possible because I'll have my cable in soon to finish my recording setup and I'm gonna work on Ike's physics data next.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Make sure that the character model is the right size compared to hitboxes and stuff.

 

[SpiderMad]

@ MonkUnit 's method was to use some program to take a screenshot each frame and compile them using some other program

 

[GP&B]

Oh duh. Dug up the thread I posted and found the programs he mentioned. I'll get to work after dinner.

Also, I don't believe Ike's model size is adjusted at all. If it is, I wouldn't know where to look but I don't believe he was changed.

 

[MonkUnit]

To see if his model size was adjusted, in BrawlBox or PSA, look in the Attributes tab and check the Size. If it is larger or smaller than 1.0, you need to change TopN bone(IIRC) to match the Size attribute.