If You Don't Play for Money, There Isn't Much Incentive to Play a Top 15 Character

[Xandercosm]

I was thinking recently about the incentives that come with playing for money as opposed to not playing for money. Typically, US/EU tournaments have a prize pool for only the top 8 or 12 (or something like that depending on the tourney). To get to top 8 or 12 at a large tournament typically means playing a top 15 character with a good MU spread. This means that the vast majority of people will play with characters that will give them the highest chance of reaching those top placements so that they can make a enough money to sustain themselves.

In Japan they don't usually play for money from my knowledge which is most likely why they have a vastly different meta from the US/EU. They can play with whatever character they want regardless of how good they are considered to be at the moment or how easy they are to get reward off of.

Anyway, it made me realize that there isn't much of a reason to feel compelled to play a really good character unless you rely on tournaments for money. I guess I just never really thought about that before. To be 100% honest (and without making too large of a judgement about the US/EU meta), I feel like playing without money as an incentive is incredibly healthy for the competitive meta in the long run.

It means that every character can be explored and represented. As long as there are players that don't get really aggravated when they lose, every character would have a good number of reps, constantly contributing time to pushing their characters' meta. I'm not even suggesting that the US/EU do this. I'm just saying that it would really mix things up and it would probably be healthy.

Thoughts?

 

[GeflGabe]

I actually kind of agree with this one. If you don't play for the reward it gives you a chance to play any character rather than not taking any risk.

 

[ぱみゅ]

That ideology is SO occidental.

For some reason occidental cuture REVOLVES around money. A lot of people don't feel any gain if money is not involved, and that in my opinion is a problem.
Like, TOs don't try their best to improve everyone's experience because they most of the time don't gain money.
A lot of players don't truly attend as many events as possible because they most of the time don't gain money.
A lot of players don't try their best to win because they most of the time don't gain money.
And so on.

Despite japanese players don't win money and they have a much wider stat of character usage, they are still a strong region simply because they DO try their absolute best every time.

 

[Xandercosm]

That ideology is SO occidental.

For some reason occidental cuture REVOLVES around money. A lot of people don't feel any gain if money is not involved, and that in my opinion is a problem.
Like, TOs don't try their best to improve everyone's experience because they most of the time don't gain money.
A lot of players don't truly attend as many events as possible because they most of the time don't gain money.
A lot of players don't try their best to win because they most of the time don't gain money.
And so on.

Despite japanese players don't win money and they have a much wider stat of character usage, they are still a strong region simply because they DO try their absolute best every time.

I completely agree. It seems like money often has a negative effect on peoples' decisions in Smash and elsewhere. I really do envy the Japanese scene, considering the fact that they enjoy playing as so many different characters and with so many unique (and sometimes not 100% optimal for that reason) playstyles. I think it's one thing we overlook to often in the US/EU scene. It'll never be changed but it's just my little pipe-dream really.

 

[Xermo]

Anyway, it made me realize that there isn't much of a reason to feel compelled to play a really good character unless you rely on tournaments for money.

Character loyalty, player image, actually liking the character. Damn son that's like 3 reasons other than money to play a character that's high tier.

It's not like picking the optimal way to guaranteed earnings is something that exists solely in smash.

 

[Xandercosm]

Character loyalty, player image, actually liking the character. Damn son that's like 3 reasons other than money to play a character that's high tier.

What I meant was that there isn't a reason to feel like you have to play one simply to win if you aren't playing for money.

 

[Iceweasel]

Well, the top 15 are proven to be significantly better characters than the bottom 15. Even if you don't play to win money (which let's be real, the vast majority of Smash players, even regulars, won't ever win a single local), you still want to do well. I'm having to switch to Zero Suit because Link's frame data just can't compete with many of the other players' characters. I may not do as well with Zero Suit, but my small amount of practice I've put in with her has given me similar results to my months of Link experience. I prefer playing Link, but the top player at the locals is a Sonic main who admits to being bad at the Link matchup. Yet because of Link's frame data, no matter how I play that matchup I am guaranteed to lose.

I would guess Japan's meta is different for two reasons. One, different ruleset. Japan has traditionally had a more conservative stage list, and IIRC they sometimes have different stock/time settings. Two, difference in playstyle. I've never been to Japan myself, so I'm going by my interpretation of some of Zero's comments on this matter.

Americans play the player, Japanese play the character. Americans will do stupid crap to throw you off, Japanese do whatever covers the most options.

The above may be wrong, and if it is then somebody please correct me. However, when the No.1 Smash players are consistently Americans that tells me that there's some difference in playstyle, probably informed by cultural differences. Yes, the players' nationalities may be from Japan, or Chile, or whatever, but if they grew up in America or learned to play Smash in America then I'd say they play Smash like Americans.

 

[Bakasama]

Incorrect - The majority of smashers in the USA cannot sustain their lifestyle on tournaments, the payout isn't high enough for the amount of travelling required. Even within the 5 gods of Melee there isn't enough money to sustain them from tournaments alone. The reason why the Japanese meta-game is so different isn't because of the money, because they still want to win as much as players playing for money do (eventually they will be coming over here and playing for money anyway). The reason the Japanese meta is different spawns from a cultural difference that crops up in every fighting game. Japanese players tend to be more reserved and opt for more methodical approaches to how they play rather than risky, aggressive play that involves not only getting into your opponents heads, but shaking them up. They're more a 'slow and steady wins the race' sort of nation when it came to Brawl, and it hasn't changed much in Smash 4, it just manifests a little differently.

 

[Xandercosm]

Incorrect - The majority of smashers in the USA cannot sustain their lifestyle on tournaments, the payout isn't high enough for the amount of travelling required. Even within the 5 gods of Melee there isn't enough money to sustain them from tournaments alone. The reason why the Japanese meta-game is so different isn't because of the money, because they still want to win as much as players playing for money do (eventually they will be coming over here and playing for money anyway). The reason the Japanese meta is different spawns from a cultural difference that crops up in every fighting game. Japanese players tend to be more reserved and opt for more methodical approaches to how they play rather than risky, aggressive play that involves not only getting into your opponents heads, but shaking them up. They're more a 'slow and steady wins the race' sort of nation when it came to Brawl, and it hasn't changed much in Smash 4, it just manifests a little differently.

Apparently ZeRo lives on mostly what he gets from tournaments. Don't know about Melee, but for Smash 4 it seems like that's how it works.

 

[nerdbot]

I think something that hurts Smash 4 right now in western regions isn't necessarily that we only play for money--it's that there's never been a period where money's off the table. I would argue that the reason Melee is so developed is both that every character was developed and had time invested into them in its early years, and that the monetary aspect keeps people playing it and looking to innovate.

I feel like Smash 4 is behind where it could be, simply because the focus is so front-heavy. I feel like there's many characters who are in middling tier placements only because they haven't had the same time invested in them by experts as a character like Sheik who has blatant strengths. And we've seen a lot of notable low-tier players switch up to Cloud or Bayonetta to win.

I don't blame them, and I don't feel like the money aspect of tournament play is inherently toxic--whatever motivates people to come out and play to the best of their ability is a good thing!--but I believe that Smash 4's community has developed competitive play in a lopsided manner. There's more at play than just monetary gain demanding you stick with the best character--when there's 58 characters it's hard to give everyone a fair shake. But I do wish the circumstances were different.

 

[tehtawd]

I feel like playing without money as an incentive is incredibly healthy for the competitive meta in the long run.

Never change.

I wanted to just stop at that, but, had to drop a couple pennies.

I hate money, really, I do.
Money gets in the way of a lot of things outside of smash
Money causes 'problems' more than it fixes them.

But when you apply Money to Smash ... to put it beautifully, it ruins the spirit of the competition. #opinion

I was playing some WoW Arena w/ a friend of mine who said he thought Fighting Games were not so great because there is no 'loot' incentive to keep people playing. (don't laugh, he's my friend.) I disagreed of course, because like we all know ... A good fight is invigorating. Many lovers of this genre are sustained and fulfilled with just this. Anything more is icing on the cake, but money ... money is debatable. As I stated above money causes more problems than it fixes.

On that note.
Who wants to pay players to show up and not just the players who win? Interesting halfbaked concept right there.

 

[Xandercosm]

Never change.

I wanted to just stop at that, but, had to drop a couple pennies.

I hate money, really, I do.
Money gets in the way of a lot of things outside of smash
Money causes 'problems' more than it fixes them.

But when you apply Money to Smash ... to put it beautifully, it ruins the spirit of the competition. #opinion

I was playing some WoW Arena w/ a friend of mine who said he thought Fighting Games were not so great because there is no 'loot' incentive to keep people playing. (don't laugh, he's my friend.) I disagreed of course, because like we all know ... A good fight is invigorating. Many lovers of this genre are sustained and fulfilled with just this. Anything more is icing on the cake, but money ... money is debatable. As I stated above money causes more problems than it fixes.

On that note.
Who wants to pay players to show up and not just the players who win? Interesting halfbaked concept right there.

I agree. It's good to be able to enjoy a game just for the fun of competition without needing money for motivation.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Never change.

I wanted to just stop at that, but, had to drop a couple pennies.

I hate money, really, I do.
Money gets in the way of a lot of things outside of smash
Money causes 'problems' more than it fixes them.

But when you apply Money to Smash ... to put it beautifully, it ruins the spirit of the competition. #opinion

I was playing some WoW Arena w/ a friend of mine who said he thought Fighting Games were not so great because there is no 'loot' incentive to keep people playing. (don't laugh, he's my friend.) I disagreed of course, because like we all know ... A good fight is invigorating. Many lovers of this genre are sustained and fulfilled with just this. Anything more is icing on the cake, but money ... money is debatable. As I stated above money causes more problems than it fixes.

On that note.
Who wants to pay players to show up and not just the players who win? Interesting halfbaked concept right there.

Money creates drive and incentive. Some players are just motivated by placings, but what's the point in always paying to play if you don't get compensated in the long run?

I'd equate this similar to playing the Yugioh card game. You buy cards to play. You pay money to enter tourneys. In the end, you only win more cards, but you can sell your own. There needs to be tangible things for people to want to enter. Some don't care, but many do.

Playing for fun is your own choice, but if that's your course of action then just play tourney mode or gather a group of friends to play. There's a fine line between casual and competitive.

 

[Xandercosm]

Money creates drive and incentive. Some players are just motivated by placings, but what's the point in always paying to play if you don't get compensated in the long run?

I'd equate this similar to playing the Yugioh card game. You buy cards to play. You pay money to enter tourneys. In the end, you only win more cards, but you can sell your own. There needs to be tangible things for people to want to enter. Some don't care, but many do.

Playing for fun is your own choice, but if that's your course of action then just play tourney mode or gather a group of friends to play. There's a fine line between casual and competitive.

It's not right to say someone is casual just because they are satisfied with playing for the glory of a good placement rather than the money. Money may be a drive for some people (maybe people who can't/don't make money any other way), but to me, money is completely unnecessary. I think my main issue with a monetary incentive, though, is really what I was saying before. It promotes extremely uninspired play.

When money is involved, nobody is bold enough to try a different strategy that might not net them as much cash but that could lead to a new strategy. Nobody tries new characters. What you end up getting is a completely homogenous group of players who all play as a certain 10-15 characters that are considered the best at getting that monetary reward.

To me, it waters down gameplay and makes the game extremely boring.

 

[Seagull Joe]

It's not right to say someone is casual just because they are satisfied with playing for the glory of a good placement rather than the money. Money may be a drive for some people (maybe people who can't/don't make money any other way), but to me, money is completely unnecessary. I think my main issue with a monetary incentive, though, is really what I was saying before. It promotes extremely uninspired play.

When money is involved, nobody is bold enough to try a different strategy that might not net them as much cash but that could lead to a new strategy. Nobody tries new characters. What you end up getting is a completely homogenous group of players who all play as a certain 10-15 characters that are considered the best at getting that monetary reward.

To me, it waters down gameplay and makes the game extremely boring.

It actually increases gameplay thought. If you can't see why some are successful with the same characters as others then you aren't thinking player depth. Thinking from a good player's perspective and trying to grasp their gameplay is true beauty. Also, adapt. Losing to the same thing over and over shows people's smarts as players.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Really enjoyed reading through this thread. Brings up some excellent points. Even if money is involved I feel like more tourneys should host "low tier" events or side tourneys where the top 10 characters can't be played or something of that nature just to push more high level players to explore lesser seen characters. I for one would love to see the meta shift in a way that is less money-centric, and explores the game as a whole.

 

[HoSmash4]

Having just got my main, Sheik nerfed... I dont feel as excited to play the character. Know why? I cant kill as well. I have had options removed.
I find top 15 characters fun to use. Why? Because they have good options. And a lot of them. It isnt money that is making me want to play Mario rather than Jigglypuff. It's that I have better tools to use and hence I enjoy playing them.

If I mained Zelda I wouldnt have as much fun because I literally have no answer to a lot of the better character's options and whats fun about that?

 

[C0rvus]

You make up the incentive to play for yourself, no two ways about it. Everyone plays for different reasons, and there is a myriad of reasons I could think of to play any character. Very, very few people play for money because very few people actually place in the money at events. Even fewer can do it consistently enough to make a net profit.

I think the bottom line is, most folks play because the game is fun, and winning is generally more fun than losing. Just my two cents.

 

[Xandercosm]

It actually increases gameplay thought. If you can't see why some are successful with the same characters as others then you aren't thinking player depth. Thinking from a good player's perspective and trying to grasp their gameplay is true beauty. Also, adapt. Losing to the same thing over and over shows people's smarts as players.

To each their own. However, I think that's a very closed-minded point of view.

Really enjoyed reading through this thread. Brings up some excellent points. Even if money is involved I feel like more tourneys should host "low tier" events or side tourneys where the top 10 characters can't be played or something of that nature just to push more high level players to explore lesser seen characters. I for one would love to see the meta shift in a way that is less money-centric, and explores the game as a whole.

I think that would be smart in the case that players simply won't play characters that are generally considered less viable than the top 10-15. I don't think forcing people to play low tiers at certain tourneys should have to be the way to get people to. In all reality, though, it probably IS the only way to get people to play them while money is still an incentive.

You make up the incentive to play for yourself, no two ways about it. Everyone plays for different reasons, and there is a myriad of reasons I could think of to play any character. Very, very few people play for money because very few people actually place in the money at events. Even fewer can do it consistently enough to make a net profit.

I think the bottom line is, most folks play because the game is fun, and winning is generally more fun than losing. Just my two cents.

My main is Mario. I spend most of my time playing characters within the top 10. That simply doesn't change the fact that I think we should branch out.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I think that would be smart in the case that players simply won't play characters that are generally considered less viable than the top 10-15. I don't think forcing people to play low tiers at certain tourneys should have to be the way to get people to. In all reality, though, it probably IS the only way to get people to play them while money is still an incentive.

I don't think that anyone should be forced to play low tiers, but if bigger tourneys ran side events for mid-tier characters or something like that, a lot of people would be interested in entering. Of course then you have the issue of having enough set-ups and making sure that the main schedule isn't affected but I think it'd be really cool to see from time to time.

 

[Browny]

In Japan they don't usually play for money from my knowledge which is most likely why they have a vastly different meta from the US/EU. They can play with whatever character they want regardless of how good they are considered to be at the moment or how easy they are to get reward off of.

People don't understand that the Japanese play for pride, and that pride is worth A LOT more than any $ symbol you might think.

So many Japanese players lab the game to absurd amounts, their streams are them practicing the same mid-tier combo/string over and over and over and over again. They rock up at tournaments and place really highly, sometimes winning them.

Does that surprise anyone? Why would they spend so much time on a supposed 'mid tier' character, taking them to extremely high levels if they didnt care about winning which is of course ironic because sometimes they DO win.

The Japanese scene has more diversity because people look for the pride of being the best at their character. In the US, its more a case of *Take a look at the tier list, who is the character that requires the minimal amount of effort for financial reward. Cloud, Bayonetta? Got a new main *. Simply put, its laziness in the american scene that makes it have less diversity than Japan. People would much rather be a cookie-cutter cloud main and win some of that precious $10 5th place money, than try to really innovate any character they want to be the best with.

 

[Lukingordex]

I disagree with this point of view. The big majority of the players doesn't play the game competitively for money, mostly because it's extremely unlikely someone is going to make a living out of just tournament prizes. Most people play it trying to make a name for themselves in the scene.

However, how are you going to do that if you main a very limited character that surfers against the Most popular characters in the game? Chances are, you're going to either pick a better character or stay struggling losing in losers round 2 because of bad mus. This is definitely a frustrating situation for anyone who spend time in the lab with that character.

And even for people who play competitively for fun, most bad matchups are frustrating to play against and that is not the definition of having fun.

I think the community should have a lot more low or mid tiers side tourneys, they're extremely different from the usual metagame, I'd even say it's like it's another smash game being played, we get to know the underexplored characters better and they motivate people to actually give a chance to that "bad" character they love.

 

[Xandercosm]

People don't understand that the Japanese play for pride, and that pride is worth A LOT more than any $ symbol you might think.

So many Japanese players lab the game to absurd amounts, their streams are them practicing the same mid-tier combo/string over and over and over and over again. They rock up at tournaments and place really highly, sometimes winning them.

Does that surprise anyone? Why would they spend so much time on a supposed 'mid tier' character, taking them to extremely high levels if they didnt care about winning which is of course ironic because sometimes they DO win.

The Japanese scene has more diversity because people look for the pride of being the best at their character. In the US, its more a case of *Take a look at the tier list, who is the character that requires the minimal amount of effort for financial reward. Cloud, Bayonetta? Got a new main *. Simply put, its laziness in the american scene that makes it have less diversity than Japan. People would much rather be a cookie-cutter cloud main and win some of that precious $10 5th place money, than try to really innovate any character they want to be the best with.

Exactly. This is why I admire the Japanese scene. They have such diversity. It's what I long for in the US scene...

 

[tehtawd]

Good guys, the Japanese.

Well keep in mind boys and girls, this game gets patches. We just saw a string of well placed nerfs, I for one am happy to see the direction they are headed. I still think they could go with some more dramatic changes like they did with Ganondorfs N-Air attack. That's just me though.

Even without money involved I suppose the wanting to win is enough for people to gravitate towards good characters. Balance is such a big deal in fighting games >_<