If you could change 1 thing...

[HenryZusa]

Toon Link: Give him back his goddamn recovery. Everything is fine with him except his up-B. It sucks! It sucks big time!
Sheik: His tether recovery should be back
Falco: They should give him back his original down+B from vBrawl. He is now only a blue Fox...
Ike: That you don't fall off the freaking stage if you make his side+B towards a pit.
Marth: I really prefered his original B attack from vBrawl.

Those are the changes I'd do that I remember in this moment.

 

[Kally Wally]

Toon Link: Give him back his goddamn recovery. Everything is fine with him except his up-B. It sucks! It sucks big time!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITdM66k3AE0

 

[BJN39]

Zelda : remove or reduce the negative SDI multipliers on her multihit.

Do you mean make them escapable?

Why? Why only target her multi-hits? Is it because you don't like getting hit by her multi-hits? Because it's an incredibly bad idea to only target one characters multi-hits but not everyone else's. If you were to make ALL multi-hits crap, then I'd find the idea a bit more sane. Not that that would be a good design...

 

[BJN39]

EDIT; Double post.

 

[Paradoxium]

Toon Link: Give him back his goddamn recovery. Everything is fine with him except his up-B. It sucks! It sucks big time!
Sheik: His tether recovery should be back
Falco: They should give him back his original down+B from vBrawl. He is now only a blue Fox...
Ike: That you don't fall off the freaking stage if you make his side+B towards a pit.
Marth: I really prefered his original B attack from vBrawl.

Those are the changes I'd do that I remember in this moment.

Toon Link: His recovery is good, agt with bombs lets him come in from far away, plus he has a tether
Sheik: depends, another recovery could be good or bad. Im guessing it's bad
Falco: Really? Are you serious? Do you not understand the concept that Fox and Falco play differently? That their moves only look the same, and that even their shines function differently?
Ike: I dont even understand what your trying to say, but if your using his side b and somehow falling off the stage then you are probably classified as a "noob"
Marth: In brawl it was a straight stab, but in pm since he swings it over his head it covers a much larger area, thus making it better

 

[shairn]

Make Falcon's knee shoot falco lasers.

Marth: In brawl it was a straight stab, but in pm since he swings it over his head it covers a much larger area, thus making it better

Marth's change back to melee Neutral B is a bit disappointing, since Brawl's Neutral B gives him more horizontal momentum to aid his recovery and has better horizontal range IIRC.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Marth's change back to melee Neutral B is a bit disappointing, since Brawl's Neutral B gives him more horizontal momentum to aid his recovery and has better horizontal range IIRC.

That sounds like Brawl- Shield Breaker, actually.

 

[shairn]

That sounds like Brawl - Shield Breaker, actually

That's what his Neutral B is.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

That's what his Neutral B is.

I don't remember vBrawl Shield Breaker doing that, though.

The momentum boost sounds like some cheese outta Brawl minus.

I'd rather have Melee Shield Breaker either way.

 

[shairn]

vBrawl Shield Breaker fully charged propelled Marth forward.
I think a partial charge gave some momentum, but I can't really remember since I haven't touched vBrawl in so long.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

vBrawl Shield Breaker fully charged propelled Marth forward.
I think a partial charge gave some momentum, but I can't really remember since I haven't touched vBrawl in so long.

I just looked it up.
You were correct.

Still, Melee Shield Breaker allows for more versatile use, imo.

 

[Paradoxium]

Make Falcon's knee shoot falco lasers.

Marth's change back to melee Neutral B is a bit disappointing, since Brawl's Neutral B gives him more horizontal momentum to aid his recovery and has better horizontal range IIRC.

Changing his neutral b just to aid his recovery is pointless since his side b already fills that role

 

[shairn]

Changing his neutral b just to aid his recovery is pointless since his side b already fills that role

The distance gained from a fully charged Neutral B in vBrawl is much more than that from a PM or Melee Side B, and although admittedly it has to be started from a relatively high point, you can compare it to Ganon's wizard's foot being used to recover the double jump in that aspect, which is a huge aid for recovering.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Marth would be a little too good with another recovery option, I think.

As for one thing I'd change...Nayru's Love.
That move is literally my only gripe with Zelda.

They could buff EVERYTHING else she has if they toned that **** down.

 

[shairn]

I wouldn't mind Nayru's love so long as it didn't have these iframes at the beginning.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I wouldn't mind Nayru's love so long as it didn't have these iframes at the beginning.

Exactly what I'm talkin' bout, man.
Why oh why.

 

[PastLink]

I was a little off on the B- input for Bowser's command grabs; here's that part of the changelist (courtesy of SmashWiki) to provide some more detail about his revamped special. What do you all think? It'd be pretty sexy seeing a P:M version of that.

Spoiler

Bowser

• Fire Breath removed, now replaced with Royal Rampage on the ground and Galactic Crusher in the air.
  • Royal Rampage: Bowser performs a Running Bear Grab. Bowser will gain super armor and walk forward until he either grabs an opponent or after 3 stomps. Grabbing the opponent results in an alternate grab state with alternate throws.
    • Forward throw: Bowser spins around and then throws the foe forward.
    • Back throw: Bowser grinds the opponent on the ground with his shell. A powerful horizontal finisher.
    • Up throw: Bowser jumps into the air and performs a piledriver. Useful for KOs.
    • Down throw: "Discus toss". Bowser slams the opponent on the ground. The opponent can tech the move like with Mr. Game & Watch's down throw.
  • Galactic Crusher: Bowser spins around in the air and gains super armor. If a foe is in range, they will be grabbed and piledriven into the ground, resulting in a powerful explosion and massive knockback.

what on earth is that moveset from? brawl minus by any chance?

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I know both Marth's f-smash and Shield Breaker have different uses in Project M, but I kind of miss that stab from vBrawl's Shield Breaker. I know it's Roy's f-tilt now, but before that I imagined it would have been fine to make Project M Marth's f-smash the stab since Shield Breaker covers as much area AND can be used in the air and offstage. He already has a stabbing attack with u-smash, so making f-smash the one vBrawl gave him couldn't have hurt.

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

what on earth is that moveset from? brawl minus by any chance?

Yes, "B-" and the link I provided both refer to Minus. My first post in this topic was talking about flair changes I liked in that game.

 

[Kink-Link5]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITdM66k3AE0

I'm so glad when I recover my opponent stands on-stage doing nothing.



For Pikachu: Smash64's obnoxiously large, lagless Fair is what he's missing the most, but air control after up-B or Smash64's larger F-smash with less (no?) weakening as the move lasts would be welcome alternatives. I'd take the broken Fair first easily though. This game has swords and general range to combat it anyway.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I know both Marth's f-smash and Shield Breaker have different uses in Project M, but I kind of miss that stab from vBrawl's Shield Breaker. I know it's Roy's f-tilt now, but before that I imagined it would have been fine to make Project M Marth's f-smash the stab since Shield Breaker covers as much area AND can be used in the air and offstage. He already has a stabbing attack with u-smash, so making f-smash the one vBrawl gave him couldn't have hurt.

...

You want Marth's strongest move to have a guaranteed tipper all the time?

...

I mean, I'm fine with that. I'm not sure everybody else would be, though.

 

[XXXX1000]

I'm so glad when I recover my opponent stands on-stage doing nothing.

hahaha what a terrible attitude this is

You complain about how bad Toon Link's recovery is, someone shows you a video of an advanced technique that shows Toon Link has a stronger, more flexible recovery than first appears, and you respond by whining that it can only be done if the opponent doesn't try to fight you offstage?

Educate yourself: http://www.twitch.tv/iebattlegrounds/b/504074182 [go to 1:37:30 for Aero v. Fly Amanita, and then right after that Aero v. DEHF]

Two sets with tons of Toon Link recoveries, first set includes multiple bomb jumps in a row in game 2 and a recovery from a whiffed dair in Game 3. First two games vs. DEHF have some technical errors, but Game 3 on Green Hill Zone highlights Toon Link's strong recovery options with walls. Most games feature Toon Link using bombs to protect his recovery, discouraging enemies from edgeguarding (which gives you the "enemy doing nothing" that you feel tToon Link needs).

 

[MoonlapseOpethian]

Not much I would change, but I would mostly just buff a few characters, namely Link Ganon, Charizard, and G&W

 

[NisforSmash]

Add slightly more hitstun across the board. Combos are too easy to break out of.

 

[Kink-Link5]

hahaha what a terrible attitude this is

You complain about how bad Toon Link's recovery is, someone shows you a video of an advanced technique that shows Toon Link has a stronger, more flexible recovery than first appears, and you respond by whining that it can only be done if the opponent doesn't try to fight you offstage

Yes, having a recovery that is easy to intercept and gimp is bad. Shocker I know.

 

[XXXX1000]

not gonna bother with this conversation if you're not gonna bother paying attention

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

...

You want Marth's strongest move to have a guaranteed tipper all the time?

...

I mean, I'm fine with that. I'm not sure everybody else would be, though.

It doesn't have to be guaranteed. Like maybe just for the stab smash the tip's power only shows up at the end of the stab when he's holding it out all the way, and not anytime else during the move. That's all.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

It doesn't have to be guaranteed. Like maybe just for the stab smash the tip's power only shows up at the end of the stab when he's holding it out all the way, and not anytime else during the move. That's all.

How about no.

I'd like my best move to stay as it is, kthx.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

How about no.

I'd like my best move to stay as it is, kthx.

All right, all right. I was just expressing my thoughts is all. I thought Marth had enough tools that changing his f-smash to a stab that sacrificed power and width for range wouldn't really affect him. But if you say so...

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

All right, all right. I was just expressing my thoughts is all. I thought Marth had enough tools that changing his f-smash to a stab that sacrificed power and width for range wouldn't really affect him. But if you say so...

Edge, that FSmash is nearly as central to his game as Foxco's Shine is to their's.

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

Marth's fsmash is a much better combo finisher than Shield Breaker. It's one of his best gimp tools too, and central to his play. Revamping that move would be a really big deal.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Edge, that FSmash is nearly as central to his game as Foxco's Shine is to their's.

Then what if Project M's Shield Breaker move had the same power and speed without any charge? You'd even keep the ability to use it in the air. Maybe, as a tradeoff, Shield Breaker could no longer be charged as long.

Still, I see what you're saying.

As for Foxco, if their shines weren't there I'm pretty sure they'd still be powerful, aggressive threats. I'm not saying remove the shines, obviously, all I'm saying is that Marth similarly wouldn't really lose anything overly vital since the rest of his moveset is gahlike

Marth's fsmash is a much better combo finisher than Shield Breaker. It's one of his best gimp tools too, and central to his play. Revamping that move would be a really big deal.

I thought Marth's side B could be useful in that regard, if you time it to the third or fourth hits and they similarly had around the same power as Marth's f-smash. If you're just talking about gimping, you have plenty of time while the opponent is offstage.

 

[Sardonyx]

Exactly what I'm talkin' bout, man.
Why oh why.

Well I think they have the invincibility frames because she's a very defensive character, but I can see why you'd want them gone since it's like right at the beginning.

 

[Nausicaa]

Wario's 60s+ waft should come out on frame 1.

It seems to me that waft was intended to have some utility as a "get off me" option similar to shine, what with how it has armor on frames 5-8, but the armor's not strong enough to work reliably against a lot of the 1-5 frame moves that other characters have at their disposal, so I don't feel it warrants the 8 frame startup. Compounded with the annoying mechanic whereby your fart gets "eaten" with no visual cue if you're hit during startup, using the fully charged waft starts to feel very risky outside of guaranteed setups. I'd rather have the 30s version almost every time purely because of its 4 frame startup. I guess it's cool that it incentivizes pacing your waft use, but meh.

No johns btw, waft as it is is fine (provided you stick to the 30s version). I just think it'd be cool if the fully charged version was more useful (not to mention the hilarity of Wario getting a once-per-minute fart super-shine).

Half-Wafts are optimal anyway, given the free-kills they can provide so frequently. Even then, if you wait for a full-charge, you're missing out on Waft-building time. :D
Half-Wafts da bess



Sheik with a tether would be fun.

With Bowser, you can just CC his Dash into Jabs, or Dash Grab/Side-B, and it basically works the same anyway.
It's scary to have a Bowser just straight-up dashing AT you from across a part of the stage, but having a move designated for it could take away some of that fear, make it more linear, despite possibly being more iconic.
He's already very iconic and Bowser-full.

 

[Daftatt]

lol, shadic would love this thread.

I would give sing (jigglypuff) a huge windbox to push away people. Sing is crap, and jiggs is getting boned by MUs right now.

I would make olimar's tether go further as far as grabbing the ledge, not adding more pikmin, just making it a better recovery. Ohhh... I would also make him more likely to pull better pikmin at higher percentages of damage. I can't decide which one would be more useful.

I would make squirtle's withdraw a lot less mobile on the ground, players abuse it and it hurts the character's metagame.

 

[TreK]

Do you mean make them escapable?

Why? Why only target her multi-hits? Is it because you don't like getting hit by her multi-hits? Because it's an incredibly bad idea to only target one characters multi-hits but not everyone else's. If you were to make ALL multi-hits crap, then I'd find the idea a bit more sane. Not that that would be a good design...

Yup it was stupid.
I didn't say escapable though. Just... DIable.

 

[geno]

Wario - If you hold taunt during his back throw he says "Have a rotten day!"

 

[Empyrean]

Bowser - I would revert the change making it very difficult to up-b ledge-hog. That nerf was unnecessary.

 

[PhantasyStar]

I can't stress enough. As a Zelda main I need Phillips CD-I to tap into her true power.

 

[tan(90]

Wobbling for ice climbers, or at least handoffs. I liked making people mad.