Ice Climbers Match-Up Thread *Game & Watch*

[billythegoat]

I have had the chance to play against a few Marths as of late, and this is a very difficult fight. All I have been able to do is get the rythm of his forward airs down to side step them until I land a grab, but I don't think this will work very much longer. Do any of you have any ideas for fighting Marth?

I doubt this is the right place to ask this, but I play as Yoshi, Ice Climbers, and Olimar. Which one would be best to use against Meta-knight or Marth?

 

[Corner-Trap]

vs. Pit

IC's are at a disadvantage because Pit's arrows go over ice blocks, through blizzards, and interupt squall hammers. This really hampers the IC's approach and camping setups, but the only reaon this isn't a serious disadvantage is because once the IC's are up close they have a heavy advantage.

vs. Marth

This is also a disadvantageous match-up because Marth simply outranges them up close. His ground and air game outclasses the IC's in every way. The IC's do have better approaches, camping, and edgeguarding keeping this match-up from being a heavy disadvantage.

 

[billythegoat]

Vs. Pit
yes the arrows go over the ice blocks, but that means your blocks are getting through. One 5% arrow gets through in the same time that 2 3% ice blocks gets through. Plus if you have the climbers short hop as they shoot ice blocks then there is only a 50% that they hit Popo instead of Nana. So here is the math*gasp* Ics deal 6% in the time that Pit deals 5%, but Pit only has a 50% to deal that to popo so will call it 2.5%. Summation, (6>2.5)= ice climbers out camp pit.

 

[Corner-Trap]

The point is that Pit has the advantage in the match-up. It isn't a heavy advantage only a slight one because he has the easier time in this fight. The IC's may be able to SH ice blocks while desynched reducing the chance for Popo to get hit, but as you can see the IC's are doing a lot more work compared to Pit when it comes to camping.

 

[CorruptFate]

I think billythegoat is right in the projectile fight, Pit can control the arrows but the ICs fire them to fast, if pit and the ICs both sit there and fire there b moves the ICs win pit get hit out of his if the Ics desynce and if pit uses his mirrior then one ice block get blocked by the other. If Pit uses wing dashing and times it right -very hard to do- then he can hit the blocks back -not reflected though- giving pit an way to advance but then the Ics can use blizzard to stop him if they choose not to advance or if they do choose to advance with ice blocks they can change it to a blizzard advance, however pit can reflect blizzard so that could stop the ics there but would most likely only stop one of the two climbers.

 

[Miller]

Heres my take to it, I did it out of 10

Bowser- 9/1
Captain Falcon- 8/2
Charizard- 8/2
Diddy Kong- 3/7
Donkey Kong- 8/2
Falco- 6/4
Fox- 7/3
Game & Watch- 3/7
Ganondorf- 7/3
Ike- 4/6
Ivysaur- 5/5
Jigglypuff- 4/6
King Dedede- 7/3
Kirby- 4/6
Link- 7/3
Lucario- 2/8
Lucas- 4/6
Luigi- 5/5
Mario- 6/4
Marth- 4/6
Meta Knight- 2/8
Ness- 7/3
Peach- 6/4
Pikachu- 3/7
Pikman & Olimar- 5/5
Pit- 4/6
R.O.B.- 3/8
Samus- 5/5
Sheik- 6/4
Snake- 3/7
Sonic- 7/3
Squirtle- 5/5
Toon Link- 4/6
Wario- 7/3
Wolf- 6/4
Yoshi- 8/2
Zelda- 6/4
Zero Suit Samus- 5/5

 

[Nintendogs]

All further discussion on the IC's match-ups will be handled here.

5- Heavy Advantage
4- Advantage
3- Even
2- Disadvantage
1- Heavy Disadvantage

Bowser- 5
Captain Falcon- 4
Charizard- 4
Diddy Kong- 3
Donkey Kong- 4
Falco- 3
Fox- 4
Game & Watch- 2
Ganondorf- 5
Ike- 4
Ivysaur- 5
Jigglypuff- 4
King Dedede- 4
Kirby- 4
Link- 4
Lucario- 4
Lucas- 3
Luigi- 4
Mario- 5
Marth- 2
Meta Knight- 1
Ness- 3
Peach- 4
Pikachu- 2
Pikman & Olimar- 3
Pit- 2
R.O.B.- 3
Samus- 4
Sheik- 3
Snake- 3
Sonic- 4
Squirtle- 3
Toon Link- 3
Wario- 4
Wolf- 3
Yoshi- 5
Zelda- 4
Zero Suit Samus- 2

Total- 133/190

I think that pit might be a -3 because he can be easily grabbed when he uses angel ring, and he is the second easiest character to CG.

 

[billythegoat]

the numbers are good and all, but I think it is better to also state what strat you wan't to go into the matchup with. So here is what I have found about meta-knight. You can pretty much leave any dreams of getting a grab off at the door. He is way to fast for that. I've found that De-synced short hop blizzards give him alot of trouble. It will out reach/out prioritize any thing that he can throw at you from the front any ways. This should force him into approaching from above, this is were the true punishment begins. Your up-air has longer reach then his down-air and comes out just as fast, add that to the fact that it will combo into its self and you now have a nice advantage against an other-wise tough match-up. At higher percents the blizzards will freeze him out of it before it finishes wich actually sets him up to hit you with what ever he wants. This is were I start to use the Squall hammer synced as it should set up for more u-airs. It is just extremely difficult to find an oppening for one of your finishing moves. If you are ever stuck in a very close quarters clutch sitiuation were you don't have time to do a blizzard or squall then I would suggest using your double jab, it should oppen up a little space and it comes out very quick. At extremly low percents the double jab will beable to lead into a grab, and so does the de-synced blizzard.
Sorry for how disoranized this is but I hope it helps.

 

[Ark22]

Yes, I totally agree that you should just forget about grabbing a MK before you start the match. You might be able to get one or two grabs, but don't base your strategy around it.

His tornado can break up the Ice Climbers, but the ICs blizzard stops the tornado (and most of his other attacks) so short hop blizzards are very useful. MK is fairly weak under him. If you can, use short hop blizzards to make him jump over you, then use U-airs to rack up damage.

Even still, he is my hardest match up. Curse his super cheap moveset >.<

Marth might possibly be a 1 match up. Marth can easily separate the ice climbers with Fair/Nair/Fsmash because it will usually tipper 1 and untipper the other IC. If the Marth knows what he's doing, he can be just as hard to grab as MK. What does everyone else think of this matchup?

 

[Ark22]

double post, my bad

 

[CorruptFate]

Wait no strategy on the first page just numbers, don't people need to know how get in and get the grab off or what ever else Ic's do? Your thread just one mans opinon

 

[billythegoat]

Ark, although I also find the match against Marth to be a very difficult one. His attacks that can't be shield-grabbed do to too much knock back, i.e. the smash attacks, are still very punishable, however if side-stepped. His arials on the other hand seem to be sheild grabbed fairly easily. I like to go for a shield dash to grab. This should get you close enough, unless he does a retreating arial, but even Marth can run out of room sometime. Now I in no way have found a good way to fight Marth, but I do find it much easier to get grabs on him in comparison to Meta-knight.
P.S.
I noticed that the first post is still just numbers, Hopefully this is just because he hasn't had a chance to up-date this thread.

 

[Melee1]

As of right now your chart is perfect.

 

[billythegoat]

I think that Pit is probably more of a three instead of a two. He has a relativly short reach and he is considerably slower then many other characters. Now add that to the fact that he can be out camped by the ice climbers, and you see that Pit has few true advantages against us. Now I don't acctually know a whole lot about how this new "wing-dashing" thing will change the match-up, but I doubt it will make to many drastic changes to how you fight Pit.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Wow, I completely forgot I even made this thread. In an attempt to revive it, here are all the match-ups that I think the IC's are at a disadvantage against.

Falco:
His lasers alone completely dismantles your approach. They go over ice blocks, through blizzards, stops squall hammer, and disrupts any desynch attempt. SH phantasm is also a real pain to deal with since the IC's have no move to counter/punish it. Dair spike is devastating and will hit you straight out of your squall hammer if you try to recover with it, and it can even hit you out of the startup of belay.

Marth:
He out ranges and out prioritizes you on the ground and air. Most of his attacks are double or more of your throw range allowing him to easily space you, and he has some good options to stop your approach. SH Fair will go over ice blocks and hit straight through your blizzards and squall hammers. He also has a good arsenal of edgeguarding tactics to disrupt the IC's recovery.

Meta Knight:
This is probably the IC's hardest match-up thus far. He beats you out in the air and ground, his speed and size make him hard to keep out, has good aerial mobility allowing him to space away from grabs, has ridiculous edgeguarding abilities to easily gimp their recovery, and the IC's have no reliable way to stop tornado spamming. Everything about this match-up is simply hard.

Pikachu:
Spot dodge into Dsmash can wreck the IC's close range game. Dsmash is hard to DI out of and easily separates the IC's. Thunder is also a good move to separate the IC's, and can be spammed in case they get grabbed in which the thunder will disrupt the combo.

Pit:
Just like Falco, Pit's arrows will go over ice blocks, through blizzards, stop squall hammers, and disrupt any desynch attempt. This just completely disrupts your approach, and his good edgeguarding allows for early gimps.

R.O.B.:
Just like Pikachu, spot dodge into Dsmash will do wonders at punishing the IC's up close game and separate them. And just like most of the characters the IC's do bad against, he has good edgeguarding allowing for some gimp kills.

Snake:
He completely destroys the IC's on the ground with his tilts and jabs, and his Utilt makes it risky for the IC's to go into the air. He can also hold a nade to prevent the IC's from grabbing him because it will explode midway through the combo.

So far these are the only match-ups I see the IC's having a notable disadvantage in, but there may be more match-ups where they're at a slight disadvantage. Despite all the things the IC's have going for them, they'll still end up mid tier at best because of the sheer number of bad match-ups they have, especially against the higher tiered characters.

 

[Pentaoku]

I don't get how to read the Opening post.

Does higher # = worse match up for climbers or better?

If higher = better, then there's something up with your Lucario number. Lots of people are saying he's trouble for the IC, yet the chart says IC have an advantage. Just wondering about that.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Well that list is pretty old and outdated to so don't go by it just now, I'll repost a new one once I get more feedback. And the rating system isn't hard to understand at all, I gave definitions for what each number meant.

 

[Taylor]

Blizzard stops MK's tornado.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Yes blizzard does stop tornado, but note that I said "reliable" way to stop tornado. Blizzard only covers your front, so if he's below, above, or behind then he can still hit you.

 

[Binx]

Corner in a game this slow how could he ever get behind or below you? Similarly to Melee you really shouldn't leave the ground with ICs except to short hop a blizzard, from my experience their aerials don't even kill anymore, but I guess you shouldn't take me 100% ask Hylian.

 

[Corner-Trap]

A lot of MK's attacks can cross-up or launch the opponent in the air, so he can start tornado spamming after a quick setup. Also note that after the tornado you'll still be in the air ready for another one. Tornado is also a very quick move and can be hard to counter with a blizzard on reaction. I'm not sure how much startup blizzard has, but I've tried using it a few times to stop the tornado only to be knocked out on startup.

 

[choknater]

Corner-Trap don't forget Zelda

 

[Corner-Trap]

Corner-Trap don't forget Zelda

We don't need any more bad match-ups. I also think that G&W may have an advantage because his Bair is the only move in the game that can consistently shield poke both IC's at once, and his Dsmash separates the IC's really far away. One time I got hit by his Dsmash in the middle of FD and each IC ended up on the opposite side.

EDIT:

Also according to my experience the IC's may also have a disadvantage against ZSS.

 

[Speedsk8er]

We don't need any more bad match-ups. I also think that G&W may have an advantage because his Bair is the only move in the game that can consistently shield poke both IC's at once, and his Dsmash separates the IC's really far away. One time I got hit by his Dsmash in the middle of FD and each IC ended up on the opposite side.

EDIT:

Also according to my experience the IC's may also have a disadvantage against ZSS.

While yes, GaW is at the advantage in this match, I've managed to sheildgrab a GaW out of his Bair in the middle of it. Of course, he just spaced the Bair badly. A good GaW shouldn't have that problem though.

Oh yeah! Is Sheild DI still in? I think that I recall there being Shield DI in melee where even while your sheild was being attacked, you could DI the attacks to the left or right. This, combined with how gay shields are in this game, how easy smash DI is, and IC's brutal grab game could make things..... interesting for us. lol

Of course, I maybe wrong in my assumptions.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I updated the first post, and I'm borrowing an idea from other character boards. Each week we'll discuss a single match-up and compile all the information we can on it.

 

[Miller]

I updated the first post, and I'm borrowing an idea from other character boards. Each week we'll discuss a single match-up and compile all the information we can on it.

That's a very good idea actually.

Yes snake's ground game will always dominate along with the fact that he can always have a grenade in his hands which in fact does make CGs nearly impossible to do. Also, whenever you approach, he can just Snake dash, and mess up your whole approach. The best thing you can do in this match up is make him come to you. Use some Ice blocks to your advantage, make him shield for those hits and drop the grenade he currently has. If your close enough when this happens you could go for a grab, or if your farther away, a squall could work aswell. Also a random Ice Block to search for the mines would be effective. And when on a stage with platforms, abuse those, stay at a different level then he is so he cant Snakedash or throw Grenades at you. When at a higher level, Spam some Ice Blocks. This will make him come to the same level as you, use that to your advantage.

To tired to write more.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I'll write a list of points under each match-up as we progress. First post updated again.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Seriously we need to get some more discussion going on.

 

[Miller]

Sorry, im ripped, and I cant think of anything

 

[Hylian]

I was about to make this thread. Put (Week 1) or two or whatever in the title so people know this will keep going on and we can discuss things >_>.

 

[Miller]

I was about to make this thread. Put (Week 1) or two or whatever in the title so people know this will keep going on and we can discuss things >_>.

Good idea, and next week we should talk about MKs

 

[Corner-Trap]

Alright I'll update the thread title, and I was planning on discussing MK next week anyways, but for now lets finish our discussion on Snake.

 

[Miller]

Okay.

A strategy that could be effective is that when snake uses Ftilt, you can block the first hit with your shield, and sidestep the second hit, allowing a grab, since your that close to him.

 

[Speedsk8er]

It's really hard for me to get a grab off in this match and even when I do. I find it difficult to altgrab snake for some reason. Most of my damage comes from desynching ice blocks and slowly approaching. When I'm mid-range, I spam desynched blizzards and look for his reaction. If he sheilds I can Dthrow Fair tech chase. If he jumps, I can Uair juggle. Most of the players I know try to jump over the blizzards so I usually get around 2-3 Uairs on them.

I dunnno. I don't play many snakes.

 

[Nintendude]

I come from right outside Snakeland (New England) and yesterday at XIESTICLE (where I took 4th) I faced like 6 or 7 competent Snake players, including PC Chris and Cort who both main Snake. So, I think I figured out this matchup pretty well, defeating every Snake there except PC and Cort.

First of all, a lot of the things mentioned in this thread simply don't work. Snake can just spam the first hit of f-tilt and jab and it's impossible to punish it, even out of shield. If you try to do Blizzard or spam ice blocks, he can just Snakedash before you can get any attacks out or throw grenades. If you see the Snakedash coming you usually can't jump out of the way in time, but if you shield it you can't really punish it out of shield either. The grenades are particularly tricky. Snake can just hold a grenade and run into your attacks and shield. If you start attacking the shield then you usually end up blowing up the grenade.

So what do you do to Snake then?

I like to run up to him and shield. If he Snakedashes, then he just goes through you and nothing happens. If he starts pressuring your shield with f-tilts and jabs then I wait for an opening, and if I don't see one, I just get away or roll behind him. Surprisingly, if you roll behind him and just start jabbing you can almost always hit him.

The only thing you can really punish him with is forward-B. What I try to do is jump out of shield over Snake's f-tilt and land on him with a forward-B. Smart Snake players see this coming and shield it but it's easy to get a hit off with it anyway. Also look for f-smash opportunities, which occasionally arise when the Snake poorly spaces a 2nd f-tilt hit. At low %, punish poor spacing with dash-As and try to juggle him with Uair. Also try to juggle with Uair after a forward-B.

If you somehow manage to get a grab (which is ridiculously hard vs. Snake, and I have no tips for getting one), I like using the alternating b-throw, f-throw chaingrab (the same one I use vs. WK's Bowser in those vids). If you got a grab on Snake near the edge, then footstool chaingrab him to the edge (I think this is the easier to time than the other cgs) and then do d-throw or f-throw Fair to spike him. From there you can gimp him pretty easily.

To edgeguard Snake I like to jump out and use Bair on him. If he's going over your head, use up-B on him. It's common for Snake to try to Nair to avoid that situation but up-B goes through it and it also has a lot of KO power. Just don't be predictable with it since Snake can air-dodge and then punish you for missing.

-----

I also see people saying that MK wrecks Ice Climbers. I completely disagree and think that ICs are one of the better characters to use vs. MK, but I'll save that for another day.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Very nice info. I'll edit the first page to fit your strategies.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Come on guys, we need to make this thread a lot more comprehensive.

 

[Miller]

I believe its time to switch to another discussion. 1 week is to much time for the whole 20 people that come here and the 3 people that contribute. I believe that when no one has anything left to say, we should switch to the next character

 

[Corner-Trap]

I guess you're right, time for MK.

 

[Miller]

Against MK, Your going to be using SH Blizzard alot, as it out prioritizes the Tornado and his glide attacks. Your also going to be abusing your shield alot so it's harder for them to separate you and Nana. Also when there using Tornado, if you can manage a SH Single Blizzard, you can go in for the grab and attempt at a 0-Death. I'll write more about this later.