Ice Climber's grabs and desynces

[Chesstiger2612]

@ Hinichii.ez.™
Not all of them are included yet, it seems that after a WD back -> tilt stick -> anything they will do different actions.
The most useful for neutral game and offense should be on the list right now although I think we might miss 2 or 3 which are essential to avoid techchasing.

@ Iceman
I tried much stuff...
Btw the Ice Block thing is done the "secret" was that there is a hammer hitbox at the Ice Climber doing the move with more KB and a higher angle. Also there is some kind of "stay grounded" threshold keeping you grounded when you are grounded if the KB amount isn't high enough. This seems to cause the different results when using Ice Block.

I first have to get used to the timing again because I started testing with Dolphin (because you can advance frame by frame for some tests) and I am not used at all to the timing at my Wii. -,-

Back-throw is a bit DI dependent, here I would try to keep it as simple as possible, but if its your only chance to continue the combo try regrabbing them. If they have enough percent to not being able to mash out as fast you have a pretty safe regrab by tilting the stick in the opposite direction (Nana will walk, the grab won't happen yet) and then instantly regrabbing. Otherwise you can try to followup with an Ice Block, but often the back-throw isn't the best choice at mashout-dangered percents.

Also as little note if you pummel with Nana you have time to throw until they mash out, but in return the pummel input has to be as tight as the d-throw one. Good at high percents because you want as much % per grab as possible, because every handoff gives a chance to mess up.

An other note: Following up always gets easier if you control the other climbers movement while the other does the throw animation: For example if I am close to kill percents I can handoff with JC grabs and then f/d-smash at the ledge where killing obviously is easier. That also means less required regrabs and less chance of messing up.

Another find: When you go out of synchronization range while Nana is currently grabbing, she is waiting for you to get in sync range again and input an action. Might be useful when grabbing out of turnaround desync

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Here is a very useful one, (I don't know the name) while the stage is loading, hold an input like nB or down B and only nana will do it when the game starts. Mad usefull for small stages or setting something up early. I'll see if it has a name, if not, we can just call it the pre-game desync or something cool.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Ah the socalled GO!-desync

 

[Lizalfos]

If you footstool with one climber you can still waveland with the other. Does this lead into anything?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Leads into handoffs if executed properly.
Lets say Popo footstools.
8 frames of footstool animation, Nana wavelanding (averaged 6 frames until air dodge reaches ground)
Popo wavelanding immediately (averaged 6 frames until air dodge reaches ground), Nana in 10 frames LandingSpecial animation
Popo in LandingSpecial, Nana grabbing (frame 7), instant down-throw, from here on start the handoffs.
You have a 28 frame window (except for Dedede, Diddy, Link, Pit, Snake, Toon Link and Ness who have 27 and Mewtwo who has 24) with Nana as Popo footstools, so it should be enough for everyone although you need to be pretty technical.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I'm curious, how well do IC deal with projectiles in PM?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Lower mid in dealing with projectiles. Nana's shield coming up 6 frames later is a problem, but you have your own projectile so you do not have to approach.
Someone throwing projectiles at you also gives you the opportunity to desync so these "one projectile -> then go agressive" mixup strategies are not as strong against Ice Climbers. When you have an opponent who can deal with Ice Block and has better projectiles, you need to approach, and this is pretty difficult without getting Nana damaged.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Can blizzard do anything about projectiles?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Only if their percentage is 9 or less and they are clankable. If that is the case though, approaching with a desync wall, continuously having once climber blizzarding, is almost negating the use of that projectile (since you would approach similar normally, only a few options are taken away)

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Only if their percentage is 9 or less and they are clankable. If that is the case though, approaching with a desync wall, continuously having once climber blizzarding, is almost negating the use of that projectile (since you would approach similar normally, only a few options are taken away)

Well dam dude, Mario's fireball, pikmin, boomerangs, uncharged shadows, probably some of samus'sarsenal and a few other annoyances are now no more. Desync blizzard stronk

 

[Chesstiger2612]

You also need to make sure the blizzarding Climber goes in front. This is possible by shorthopping the blizzard while holding forward and WDing a little bit forward with the non-blizzarding climber.
It is easiest to set up from a spot dodge/roll desync after you dealt that way with the first projectile

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Would the projectile stop the moment it touches the blizzard? If so, you wouldn't need that climber to be in front, per say. You could just nana pull and have the wild blizzard a bit infront of ya.

EDIT: I'll be using my DD desync with my blizzard to delay projectile characters the satisfaction of lameing me out with their crap.
2x EDIT: was it mentioned, that with the DD desync, if you go left/right left/right left/right nana do desync'd action and if you do it once more popo will do the desync'd action?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

The hitbox of the blizzard is kind of flickering, at different places for a few frames and such, don't think of it as one giant hitbox. A bit distance is much safer.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Haven't touched my wii in a few days. Lost my edge on the nana control, its very, frustrating =_=

 

[Revolution6 aka alterego]

does sopo actually have a d-throw CG on wolf...or is the AI steering me wrong

 

[Chesstiger2612]

on mid%s yes, on low%s he can turn it into a techchase and at high %s he can get out.

 

[Mendelsin]

Alright I picked up the Icies about a week ago and I have fallen in love with how they play. I hope this is the right place to post this but I've been experimenting with handoffs. I've practiced enough where I can handoff on almost all characters once I get a feel with how quick they're thrown. On dolphin netplay, I can chain it near the ledge where it's dthrow - nana hanodff - nana dthrow - popo handoff - fsmash for some kills. It also helps for throw mixups when dthrow - dair or d/fthrow squall hammer gets predictable.
I love handoffs (although people on Dolphin get pretty mad at me ) and I just wanted to share some ways I've found the handoffs useful.

 

[Foxy K]

We more or less knew that stuff, but I always get excited to see a new IC player (main?) and I'm DEFINITELY loving your Pichu swag. I'm curious as to how you got the timing though- I've only been able to consistently get a single regrab with Nana. It's possible I'm just really bad at it.

 

[Mendelsin]

We more or less knew that stuff, but I always get excited to see a new IC player (main?) and I'm DEFINITELY loving your Pichu swag. I'm curious as to how you got the timing though- I've only been able to consistently get a single regrab with Nana. It's possible I'm just really bad at it.

Definitely a ic main. And yeah maybe it is just a timing issue but it can all be fixed with practice!. I practiced A looooooot on the handoffs (the week I started playing then, I spent atleast four days straight just getting the timing down) and I practiced more or less on each individual character to get the timing down so it's really natural to me now. It all does come down to practice!

 

[uboa]

Hey guys, I've recently been experimenting some with the c-up OOS desync. I found it useful to jc grab with Popo while Nana upsmashes. I haven't seen it mentioned yet so I just thought I'd put it out there to see what you guys think about its uses and viability. It seems like a decent option select to me.

 

[Iceman]

Hey guys, I've recently been experimenting some with the c-up OOS desync. I found it useful to jc grab with Popo while Nana upsmashes. I haven't seen it mentioned yet so I just thought I'd put it out there to see what you guys think about its uses and viability. It seems like a decent option select to me.

I think it is an interesting and unexplored option. I've been able to upsmash-grab, but you can alot more with the c-stick up. While playing around with it awhile ago I did alot of things by accident. I was able to make Popo stay on the ground and Nana perform a blizzard in the air.

 

[Ty.]

Do all of the Melee desyncs work for PM Ice Climbers? I swear I was trying Squall Hammer desync, reverse F-Tilt desync, missed grab desync and they just weren't working. I heard all of the desyncs for them were identical to Melee and some of the Brawl ones were added too.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Could we somehow organize (or at least document) all desync names and important uses? Probably wait until 3.5 before going into frame specific explanations. Some basic categories would be like nuetral desyncs, mid combo desyncs, OoS desyncs, etc. I think it would be a discussion worth having. Even if it wasn't organized, just list of notable ones so we could have a discussion on where and when you use (or don't) use certain desyncs.

 

[941]

Using Debug Mode, I was able to find the first frame for which you can input a grab with Nana to do a hand-off following a down-throw across the entire cast. The following is a list of the first frame after the DThrow -10(Grab start-up frames + Nana input delay) and it should give a better idea of hand-off timing for each character.

33:
31:
30:
29:
28:
26:
25:
24:
23:
22:
21:
20:
19:
18:
17:
16:
13:

Anyone who has better information is encouraged to make corrections.

 

[Tobb99]

I found a nice little grab desync.

1. Land a grab with both climbers in place close to ledge but facing away from the ledge.
2. pummel
3. walk or wavedash with nana forwards(wavedash seems easier and more reliable)
4 do a forward smash with nana and hit with the reverse hit of the forwards smash sending them of the ledge setting up for an edge guard

This desync allows you to reverse forward smash you opponent of the stage when facing away from the ledge, it looks quite usefull around 100% when your opponent flies quite far setting up for an edge guard. It looks a bit flashy too. ^^

Would be nice to hear if anyone got a better choice for KOing from a throw a the ledge when facing away from the stage as this is the best i could come up with.

 

[Tobb99]

An easy but very effective grab desync:

1.Land a grab with both climbers in place
2. pummel
3. Charge a smash attack
4 time the throw and the smash attack so that when popo is about to throw you unleash your smash attack, when doing an up-smash an up throw seems to work well, and when doing a forward smash or a down smash, down throw and forward throw seems to work well.

What this does is essentially make your throw stronger and kill earlier since climbers smash attacks are quite strong. Up smash up throw seems to work well on floaties so keep that in mind when facing one. Also you have know how much your opponent can mash out of your throw so unleash the trow-smash early enough.

 

[Hylian]

Err...Throw -> reverse fsmash has been around since like 2005.

 

[Iceman]

An easy but very effective grab desync:

1.Land a grab with both climbers in place
2. pummel
3. Charge a smash attack
4 time the throw and the smash attack so that when popo is about to throw you unleash your smash attack, when doing an up-smash an up throw seems to work well, and when doing a forward smash or a down smash, down throw and forward throw seems to work well.

What this does is essentially make your throw stronger and kill earlier since climbers smash attacks are quite strong. Up smash up throw seems to work well on floaties so keep that in mind when facing one. Also you have know how much your opponent can mash out of your throw so unleash the trow-smash early enough.

this has been around for awhile but you are still a legend for puttting in the work

 

[Tobb99]

Don't know if anyone has mention it, but there is a start game desync. When you start a match, at the timer 321 go, input a move(hold the button), like an ice block or a blizzard, and only nana will make the input.
It's a good way if you want to start the game immediately with desyncs.

You can also do a respawn desync, which is kind of simillar. When the respawn platform falls down you can start in desync by using anything with nana.

 

[941]

Don't know if anyone has mention it, but there is a start game desync. When you start a match, at the timer 321 go, input a move(hold the button), like an ice block or a blizzard, and only nana will make the input.
It's a good way if you want to start the game immediately with desyncs.

This was called the "GO!" desync in Melee, so it's been known about for a while. Nice to know it still works in PM though.

 

[Hylian]

This was called the "GO!" desync in Melee, so it's been known about for a while. Nice to know it still works in PM though.

Does this actually work in melee? I thought it didn't, and was from brawl. I swear I've tried this on multiple occasions in melee and it didn't work.

 

[941]

I think it only works if you have port 1 or 2, but it has worked for me before.

 

[Stick_man]

It's already been mentioned here, but its pretty important so I think I should say it again. You can charge smashes after grabbing people. Grab-> pummel-> (inputted during the lag from pummel) usmash (held) -> up-throw kills Bowser off the top as early as 73% and Jiggly as early as 50%(final destination, top blast zone, no di, and fully charged). The up-throw is used for positioning. The goal is to hit the opponent as straight up as possible. You can also use the other smashes out of a grab. You'll want to use a throw to bring them into nana as she swings here as well. (if you use D-throw + dsmash at the right time it sends them the opposite way) Usmash is the way we ended our chain grabs in brawl. It's most likely the ICs best killing option. (expect ANY character to die to a charged usmash out of grab before 90%)

(this info isn't new here. I just felt it was pretty important.)

 

[Tobb99]

I wonder what is the go-to chain grab. I usually do d-throw dair regrab. Is that the best grab combo or is there any better?

 

[RRoulette]

I found out a regrab if people haven't posted about it already. http://steamcommunity.com/groups/PMICS/discussions/0/611698195160991795/

 

[Hylian]

I do this often in my matches with several variations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlpHL0N7ta8&t=34m32s

 

[941]

I just found out ICs can't desync from a whiffed grab anymore. Bottom tier confirmed.

As a follow-up to my post regarding hand-off timings, I've created an image depicting the first frame for which a player can input a grab in order to re-grab with Nana, for each character weight.

Frame 33:

Frame 31:

Frame 30:

Frame 29:

Frame 28:

Frame 26:

Frame 25:

Frame 24:

Frame 23:

Frame 22:

Frame 21:

Frame 20:

Frame 19:

Frame 19:

Frame 17:

Frame 16:

Frame 13:

 

[Super_Primid]

I,may of, discovered a new infinite chain grab that can be done on ANY part of a stage.

Spoiler: Version 1

The Inputs being pummeld throwshort hop forward during d throw with nana footstooltilt stick down slightly then airdodge, to get nana on the groun faster,INSTANTLY grab when the air dodge starts. Repeat.

Notes:
Dont mash footstool, the later giving u more time to grab. I am also unsure if it works on fast fallers (though i did it on falco before).

Spoiler: Version 2

pummeld throwshort hop forward during d throw with nana footstoolSheild grab ASAP(meaning right after the footstool) Nana will nair and you will grab the opponent before she hits them. Now just L cancel with nana , pause, and repeat.

Notes: This is harder to execute them Version 1 for some, but the the damage adds up SO MUCH . With Version 1, by the time you've done enough repps to be at 100 percent, Version 2 would be at 150.

The reason you need to do the shield grab so fast is so during footstool lag , your sheild comes and the only input Nana gets is the a. Now of course you can do other aerials but sticking to nair it's your safest bet.
This works on ALL the cast if done correctly. (Timings vary between weight classes)

 

[Hylian]

That infinite has been known for months.

 

[Super_Primid]

That infinite has been known for months.

Aww ok I thought u was on to something. Well it's good to have here for reference.