I have a huge problem with the current stage ruleset.

[Laijin]

Would like to point out this is the first instance ever where I actually agree with everything Umbreon has said. :D

 

[BigWenz]

In regards to people saying, the majority of the community never agreed on banning Cruise, Brinstar, and Kongo, i think at least in terms of cruise and kongo we have, in the sense that we as a community seem to absolutely hate really campy and/or matches that result in stalling. Evidence of this is clearly shown in the reactions to Armada's YL vs Hbox. Majority of the people absolutely despise watching it. Cruise and Kongo imo allow for more camping/stalling than any other stage.

That being said, even though I main spacies (on most days lol) i see no reason for brinstar to be illegal while Stadium is still legal. Correct me if im wrong but they both seem to do the same thing. They both seem to have random transformations, and both force you to play on one part of the stage when it transforms.

 

[Laijin]

In regards to people saying, the majority of the community never agreed on banning Cruise, Brinstar, and Kongo, i think at least in terms of cruise and kongo we have, in the sense that we as a community seem to absolutely hate really campy and/or matches that result in stalling. Evidence of this is clearly shown in the reactions to Armada's YL vs Hbox. Majority of the people absolutely despise watching it. Cruise and Kongo imo allow for more camping/stalling than any other stage.

I can argue that Final Destination promotes heavy camping just as much as Kongo and Rainbow Cruise.
Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPk1...16sr_hpQx2FaWdfbdMYT2U4S&feature=results_main

Your comment is even up there and got response from chibo lol

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

Really hard to take you seriously if you throw insults in your posts. It basically invalidates your opinion

This is the type of stupid garbage that I can't stand. Whether a post is offensive or not is of ZERO significance to the post's argumentative content. It doesn't invalidate anything, and people like this kid need to stop pretending that they can bend logic by pretending like they can make claims on argumentation as if they were authority.

 

[Laijin]

This is the type of stupid garbage that I can't stand. Whether a post is offensive or not is of ZERO significance to the post's argumentative content. It doesn't invalidate anything, and people like this kid need to stop pretending that they can bend logic by pretending like they can make claims on argumentation as if they were authority.

I don't have to/don't want to waste my time responding or discussing something with someone if they are gonna act like an immature and throw insults at people for no reason. His opinion is 100% invalidated because he doesn't know how to properly talk to someone. I don't need to show any respect for someone like that.

 

[BigWenz]

I can argue that Final Destination promotes heavy camping just as much as Kongo and Rainbow Cruise.
Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPk1...16sr_hpQx2FaWdfbdMYT2U4S&feature=results_main

Your comment is even up there and got response from chibo lol

without even clicking im almost positive this is the match where chibo picks puff and planks the ledge for 7 and a half minutes just to **** it up at the end. Puff can do that on any stage so we would have to ban all stages if we are trying to prevent that from happening (which obv leads to no game) or go the Brawl route and add a ledge grab limit. Plus this is more stalling then camping. Ignoring planking Kongo camping >> camping on any of the currently legal stages. If you have evidence otherwise please show it to me.

Edit: I clicked and i was correct loool

 

[Laijin]

without even clicking im almost positive this is the match where chibo picks puff and planks the ledge for 7 and a half minutes just to **** it up at the end. Puff can do that on any stage so we would have to ban all stages if we are trying to prevent that from happening (which obv leads to no game) or go the Brawl route and add a ledge grab limit. Plus this is more stalling then camping. Ignoring planking its physically impossible to camp someone harder on FD then it is Kongo. If you have evidence otherwise please show it to me.

Edit: I clicked and i was correct loool

That is my point. You can camp really hard on most stages. So why use that argument for RC and Kongo?

 

[BigWenz]

That is my point. You can camp really hard on most stages. So why use that argument for RC and Kongo?

maybe you mis understood what i said. Kongo and RC imo allow for camping more than of the legal stages available. Im asking you to find me a video where someone got camped harder on FD then on Kongo.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

I don't have to/don't want to waste my time responding or discussing something with someone if they are gonna act like an immature and throw insults at people for no reason. His opinion is 100% invalidated because he doesn't know how to properly talk to someone. I don't need to show any respect for someone like that.

Well then, you obviously don't know what the word "invalidated" means and are not fit to partake in any type of discussion whatsoever.

People that glitch out and confuse etiquette with reasoning are just another pollutant to humanity's collective intellect. It would be significantly less objectionable if you merely said "I refuse to talk to offensive people in order to cater to a more civilized discussion however burdensome that may be to some" instead of making a bunch of self-defeating accusations and claims that don't hold up.

 

[knightpraetor]

If you want to make the argument that those stages should be legal again, you start with your locals. If you are trying to get an event like Evo to make those stages legal, you need to be talking to the TOs that host national scale events and getting some agreement from people who hold weight. These things still come down to "popular opinion".

this is the main point. It's just popular opinion. Even though I main peach now and brinstar is a great stage for her, i remember the hell the old ruleset was for marth mains and have no desire for a ruleset that forces players to be at such a strong disadvantage that they shouldn't play their main.

A lot of people want to be able to play their main rather than being forced to a secondary character in the most important 3rd match.

I don't think that this was some arbitrary decision handed down. Tournament hosts took feedback and chose to adopt the new standards. Some people disagreed and kept using them or occasionally keep other counterpicks on, but in general people complained of those, so the new ruleset has become standardized.

Regardless, I guess voting on it would have been a fairer option, but are we really going to let anyone with a smashboards account vote? doing that is too difficult. If you want things to change, talk to your TOs

 

[Laijin]

maybe you mis understood what i said. Kongo and RC imo allow for camping more than of the legal stages available. Im asking you to find me a video where someone got camped harder on FD then on Kongo.

I just did. Chibo tried to time him out. But videos don't really matter because lets be real, how often does this actually occur? When these stages were legal it was VERY rare for someone to actually get timed out. Just as rare as it is with any other stage. Sheik can camp Ice Climbers and time them out on Yoshi Story, Pokemon Stadium, Dreamland, Battlefield, etc etc. Basically any stage with a really high platform. So why don't we ban those too by your logic. I remember Plank timing out Ice Climber players at Apex 2 years ago on neutrals.

snip

It doesn't really matter in the end. The guy comes off as a complete ****. Lets try to stick to the topic?

 

[Strong Badam]

This is the type of stupid garbage that I can't stand. Whether a post is offensive or not is of ZERO significance to the post's argumentative content. It doesn't invalidate anything, and people like this kid need to stop pretending that they can bend logic by pretending like they can make claims on argumentation as if they were authority.

I disagree. I find it hard to take someone seriously when 90% of their argument is ad hominem, disgusting hateful ad hominem at that.

 

[Bing]

Well then, you obviously don't know what the word "invalidated" means and are not fit to partake in any type of discussion whatsoever.
.

I feel like this is a bit much

 

[BigWenz]

I just did. Chibo tried to time him out. But videos don't really matter because lets be real, how often does this actually occur? When these stages were legal it was VERY rare for someone to actually get timed out. Just as rare as it is with any other stage. Sheik can camp Ice Climbers and time them out on Yoshi Story, Pokemon Stadium, Dreamland, Battlefield, etc etc. Basically any stage with a really high platform. So why don't we ban those too by your logic. I remember Plank timing out Ice Climber players at Apex 2 years ago on neutrals.


It doesn't really matter in the end. Lets try to stick to the topic?

thats not camping clyde, that is stalling, their is a difference. Im asking for evidence of harder camping. Also again either you are not reading or failing to understand. I never said you can't camp on the current legal stages. I am saying the camping on kongo is more prevalent then the neutrals. Cause its clearly easier to camp icies on kongo then say FD or yoshi's. If you disagree with this then im done with this convo all together.

Also, while people shouldn't be insulting people here, just cause someone insults you while making a statement doesn't invalidate the statement. For example I could say beating up a child with a sledgehamer is wrong you stupid *insert any insulting phrase here*, does that make what i say any less true? No it doesnt.

 

[telemaster]

it's really just how online forum discussion vs face to face discussion differ in etiquette

 

[CanISmash]

Lol at this communities blatant bull****. "general consensus"

Na how about we allow one national, the biggest and best at the time with one man's influence cut 90% of the stages at pound while stealing money. Smashers always copy and paste rules and so this became the norm. Then sprinkle in a backroom circle fap and we've got like 20 players that = the community and the rules.

I loved counterpicks, rip. Community
wide johns and "fox nerfing" effort. Dont like the stage learn a new character that does well there use to be the mindset of players

 

[Pi]

i'm just confused as to why yoshi's is still legal

 

[Laijin]

I feel like this is a bit much

Well yeah. That guy comes off as a **** as well and probably can't have an actual conversation without doing so. He is on Leffen status lol.

thats not camping clyde, that is stalling, their is a difference. Im asking for evidence of harder camping. Also again either you are not reading or failing to understand. I never said you can't camp on the current legal stages. I am saying the camping on kongo is more prevalent then the neutrals. Cause its clearly easier to camp icies on kongo then say FD or yoshi's. If you disagree with this then im done with this convo all together.

Also, while people shouldn't be insulting people here, just cause someone insults you while making a statement doesn't invalidate the statement. For example I could say beating up a child with a sledgehamer is wrong you stupid *insert any insulting phrase here*, does that make what i say any less true? No it doesnt.

Yes, it is easier to camp on Kongo than it is on other stages. I agree with you on that. But its not so much more that it makes time outs more likely to happen. Its not like we're playing on Yoshi's Island 64 and someone is camping the cloud the entire game.

His statement isn't important to me because I refuse to acknowledge someone who can't have a conversation without throwing insults. It doesn't matter what his opinion is. I'm not giving him the time of day.

 

[Laijin]

Lol at this communities blatant bull****. "general consensus"

Na how about we allow one national, the biggest and best at the time with one man's influence cut 90% of the stages at pound while stealing money. Smashers always copy and paste rules and so this became the norm. Then sprinkle in a backroom circle fap and we've got like 20 players that = the community and the rules.

I loved counterpicks, rip. Community
wide johns and "fox nerfing" effort. Dont like the stage learn a new character that does well there use to be the mindset of players

I do like the idea of the melee backroom, but when it comes to decisions like this they really should have had the input from the entire community rather than just what a few space animal mains think should be legal lol.

 

[Scidadle]

All I know is puff is stupid as hell on KJ64.

****kkkk that

 

[CanISmash]

And camping and stalling suck we havent seen it evolve in our gameplay but it could happen anywhere. If m2k or plank really wanted to plank for 8mins for the next 3 tourneys maybe we'd get an edge grab or gentlemans rule. Or the way we did last time, just ban all the stages with ledges. Kappa.

 

[Bing]

Ban all stages with ledges? LMFAO

 

[Scidadle]

Bring back mute city.

 

[CanISmash]

Lol i hope its obvious that was a sarcastic joke

 

[Scidadle]

Green greens hacked version guys.

GUYS...

 

[Battlecow]

Pokemon should be illegal if all the other CPs are

and the other CPs are

so why the hell do we have a stage that randomly turns into the jankest of jank half the time

 

[Scidadle]

Seriously. Why is FoD a neutral...

SERIOUSLY?

 

[BigWenz]

Yoo real talk, if we gonna keep the same 6 stages, can we make it so BF, DL, YS are neutral and FoD, FD, and PS are coutnerpick since most matches end up on the first 3 regardless?

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

It doesn't really matter in the end. Lets try to stick to the topic?

>says it doesn't matter
>makes a big deal about it with Leffen

Oh god, people nowadays.



Anyway, as for the stage ruleset. I think there's good reasoning in both sides. Being from AZ, I may have predisposition, but I kind of like the rules for the THC5 tournament.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312270

The counterpick stagelist includes the Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, and Kongo Jungle. It follows the redwood counterpick system, but with Taj's Better Rule, where a counterpicking player can either ban 1 neutral stage or all counterpick stages.


I think this is effective because the current ruleset (with those 3 stages banned) seems to cater the most to high and top tiers. It also prevents from inevitable gimmicky auto-wins from certain match-ups, and it gives low-tiers and character counter-picks more wiggle room.

 

[Laijin]

>says it doesn't matter
>makes a big deal about it with Leffen

Oh god, people nowadays.

What is your problem man? Passively attacking me so you can seem like the smarter man is rather..well..I'll avoid using that word. I don't really want to cause a flame war or w/e so just drop it dude. Don't be a ****.


Anyways
I do like that modified ruleset you posted.

 

[Bing]

FoD is beautiful!

 

[DoH]

Y'all know that the back room doesn't have any actual governing power right? We merely posit rulesets as a guide. They're not law.

If you don't like them you can host your own tournaments with your own rules.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

What is your problem man? Passively attacking me so you can seem like the smarter man is rather..well..I'll avoid using that word. I don't really want to cause a flame war or w/e so just drop it dude. Don't be a ****.


Anyways
I do like that modified ruleset you posted.

I think I already stated my problem. You're... like... the problem.


I'd like to hear what other people think about that ruleset.

 

[Laijin]

I think I already stated my problem. You're... like... the problem.


I'd like to hear what other people think about that ruleset.

Well, I'm glad you confirmed yourself to be a complete *******.

 

[Mahie]

Laijin, you seem to believe spacies are content with less stages, but Cruise and Kongo are both stages made for them, where fast movement is key, be it horizontal or vertical.

On Kongo if you don't have quick vertical movement (i.e. a way to reach the platforms fast) there is no way you'll win ever if your opponent decides to play to your weaknesses.

 

[darkatma]

The current stagelist is the best it's ever been.

 

[knightpraetor]

You could have gone to FoD or Battlefield. Given your example, PPU's character has an allegd advantage on all the playable stages except for FD (according to yourself). So in this scenario, your character would have been at a disadvantage, whether starter stages are bannable or not (because having already on on FD, you could only go to a platform stage according to DSR, even if there are no bans). That's just an inherent weakness in your playing a worst character.

the stagelst isn't a means of balancing thv cast. if marth is better on more stages than peach, then that's irrelavent.

as a former marth main and current peach main I don't understand how you can think FoD is not in your favor. low platforms screw with marth more than anyone who has not played him will ever understand..meanwhile peach can set her float height wherever she wants..not to mention your dsmash hits underneath the platforms when you're on them so he can't cross properly or space when he's boxed out making his actions super predictable.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

I disagree. I find it hard to take someone seriously when 90% of their argument is ad hominem, disgusting hateful ad hominem at that.

What these internet pseudo-intellectuals fail to understand is that an insult is not equal to an ad hominem fallacy.

Saying that someone's argument is invalidated because there he throws insults IS AN AD HOMINEM FALLACY. The insult is completely irrelevant to the soundness or cogency of the argument.


Moreover, an ad hominem fallacy can vary from a weak to a strong inductive argument, and we all value strong induction.

 

[JKJ]

GREAT
F***ING
BAY.


'nuff said.

 

[stelzig]

Laijin, you seem to believe spacies are content with less stages, but Cruise and Kongo are both stages made for them, where fast movement is key, be it horizontal or vertical.

On Kongo if you don't have quick vertical movement (i.e. a way to reach the platforms fast) there is no way you'll win ever if your opponent decides to play to your weaknesses.

Yeh, I don't really understand how you would see no counterpicks to be in spacies favor... It also isn't just a few spacies that wants this ruleset in europe at least (doubt it is in the US too, though it seems less popular over there). People were just ignoring it or getting mad about it when tonberry allowed counterpicks at smasher's reunion, lol.