I don't agree with customs at evo, and here's why..

[Rehnquist]

Never been straw man'd so hard.
I didn't make an "argument" I made a statement that you are appealing to masses, that's pointing out a fallacy ad populum, not an argument, bro.

Define A, B, and C so it can actually be properly analyzed instead of just making a bold accusation of "flawed" so as to remove any strawmen in the audience, please & thank you.


First of all, show how rulecrafting is "supply and demand".
Second, being against herd mentality does NOT equate to supporting a minority-rule. That would be foolish to assume, logically.
Third, rhetoric like pushing ideas someone is afraid that some kind of herd-mentality mob rule decisions would "catch on" is completely outside the realms of formal argument and just goes to sully the discussion. Instead I'll be waiting for your reasoning for assuming a "supply and demand" as well as work on the definitions of "A, B, and C".
Thanks.

The entire thread is in pro or con against customs, let’s not pretend otherwise. There is nothing strawman like in the A, B, and C examples, the only strawman in my previous post was my given underlying reason why people are against such, which you didn’t list as your grievance under your stawman criticism interestingly enough.


I don’t know if the misunderstanding is due to English as a secondary language or if my writing is subpar/bad but let’s go over the beginning and walk this step by step.


When picking choices/rulesets for what is allowed as it pertains to customs, there are only 3 options to choose from. You cannot run a smash event without deciding on one of the three. Of the three options there is 1) default only, 2) presets + default, 3) defaults + all customs not limited by presets, that’s it, there is no getting around it. Labeling these 3 mandatory choices as A, B, and C or even 1),2), and 3) as I just did now, does not constitute a stawman. Those are literally the options a smash event must decide on, there really shouldn't be any confusion in this area.


Now if we recall the original statement, I said that having presets does not limit anyone else from choosing defaults. This means that having presets adds choice and thus more options as it does not remove any content from the game. It is a fact that presets + defaults caters to more people than just defaults. Since it adds choice, it accommodates more people. This is not an opinion, it’s not an appeal, it’s a fact, adding more options without removing options accommodates more.


Your response to this was herd mentality / appeal to the masses. Considering that a large amount of people are looking to experiment with customs, they simply want to try experimenting, and one event is giving them the time of day to do just that out of the many other tourneys that did not. The idea that one of the few events trying out customs is an appeal to the masses is illogical when the vast majority don't. In fact arguing against customs because the other events haven't ran them is an appeal to popularity, since that would be illogical I didn't assume you were arguing that point. Now with the assumption that we are both logical beings, I would also assume you would not be challenging the undeniable fact that more options available caters to more playstyles, thus the criticism was assumed to be based on the law / rulecrafting deriving from majority consent. This brings things to the next bit about minority/majority powers.


All law or rulecrafting is derived from either minority or majority powers. If a law or rule is popular with the masses, the majority establishes the precedent on their own. Laws or rules made that are unpopular or are contested are decided and applied by the ruling minority body.


Real world example of majority based law would be murder and robbery within perceived social groups. This wasn’t something some guy in a chair had to think about, it was a popular opinion within greater society. Government bodies monitoring the internet on the other hand may be something that is contested but gets put into law because a small panel or group decided on it. That is the distinction between minority and majority rule.


So now as it pertains to smash, the second quote you took from me pretty much says that regardless of minority or majority based powers in question, whether you believe Evo decided its preset custom ruleset based on popular opinion (majority/mob rule) or if it was just three guys on a panel at Evo decided to run presets (minority rule), it doesn’t really matter. That is what that quote was saying, Evo is one tournament running preset customs. Arguments against its ruleset listing “herd mentality” as a reason isn’t a valid criticism. It can be minority rule or majority rule, both are used frequently and neither are arguments against preset customs.


The last bit about fear had nothing to do with herd mentality, it was the fact that the arguments provided in this thread against one single large tournament holding preset custom moves were so illogical that there were alternative motives. In this case I listed not wanting to adapt / fear of losing as the reason. This was my one and only strawman as I only needed to debunk the criticism not psychoanalyze the naysayers.


And on Evo’s behalf I also believe they ran a tourney with items in the early days of brawl just to test it out We obviously don’t run items anymore but they were simply experimenting. Customs may or may not be good, but being against customs is to be against experimentation as it were. What the naysayers anti customs camp is trying to answer is, why shouldn’t we experiment with customs in one single major tournament? Should there be no trial and error, letting the players experiences the ordeal to develop a consensus? These are the questions people are beating around the bush trying to answer.


If there is any confusion or misunderstanding on my part on any of the arguments you put forth let me know.

 

[COLINBG]

It's true that many competitive players don't use these forums, but, being the biggest Competitive Smash Community (at least I think it is?), it's normal that the rules are based on our feedback here. After all, they have to come from somewhere, and we're the ''most legit'' authority, besides Nintendo. And Nintendo made it clear that the game is, in their eyes, mostly casual, so a lot of us disagree with their rules in general (read: APEX rules).

I admit the maximum of 10 customs is somewhat limiting our options, but if you believe your set is viable you can probably get it to be accepted in the thread for your character. This is exaclty why we created such threads in the first place. And let's be honest, many characters don't even have 10 viable sets to begin with.

Even though this thread wasn't specifically about it (but kind of, and it became pretty much about this), there are four main problems with customs so far:

1. They take time to unlock.
But, if you're going to enter a tournament, you most likely have time to practice and to put into the game anyway, so while it can be boring to unlock everything, it's not exactly what prevents us from adding customs. Also, it would be logical for TOs to have a 3DS with everything unlocked, and the sets pre-entered, so each individual player doesn't have to unlock 100% of every move for every character.

2. It's harder to train with them than with the default mode.
I guess you can make a point out of this, because you don't have access to a For Glory custom mode. Tournament training, however, is mostly done by facing real players in real time (less lag / more stages / interraction between players to allow a better growth as a player). While this ''problem'' is debatable, I believe most people who go to tournaments can get over it. For those whose friends don't own a copy of Sm4sh, well... bummer, but you have CPUs and tournaments I guess.

3. It makes the tournaments last longer (even if it's by a small margin).
What they could do is allow each player to make their sets ''live'' (if it's not in the list), but I frankly don't think TOs will accept that, because it's already long enough as it is. Indeed, TOs like to keep things short, and the 30 extra seconds it takes for each player to choose his/her set can annoy them. However, I don't see a problem with chosing an already existing set from the list, since it barely takes any time at all. In the end, it's their decision, and we don't really have anything to say in it. If the TO says no custom, there's no custom, end of discussion. A vast majority of players already expressed their desire to see customs legalised (as far as I've seen), so we can't really do much else about it.

4. They might potentially **** up the meta by being extremely imbalanced.
Maybe, but so far, and considering all the research we've done, it seems to be pretty balanced. If anything, it's probably more balanced now than with the default moves. They add a lot of variety into the game, while keeping it fresh, more exciting, and making certain characters more usable, while not overwhelming us with new things to learn (you maybe have to learn 3/4 new, but similar to the default, moves per character). Still, we can only know by testing it out in real situations, such as tournaments.

I really don't see why there's actually a debate going on about this. Considering the arguments I've heard for and against the inclusion of customs, I can hardly understand why they wouldn't be legalised.

Testing them on a tournament this big can have both positive and negative results (more data to collect, but also potentially changing the outcome of the tournament). It's in a couple of months though, so we still have time to prepare for it and make the transition the smoothest possible.

 

[1FC0]

I do not have R.O.B. in Melee but you do not see me complaining that people may only use 1 character.
You do not have your favorite custom but now you are complaining that people may only use 1 custom.

It is not that unfair because you can also learn to use one of the other customs like I have to learn to use another character when I play Melee. I am even worse off since another character is a much bigger difference.

 

[VKatana]

Been looking for a place to post my opinion, so hopefully this is the right place to do it. *Exhale* Here we go.

I've seen TOO many people saying "customs are going to save the Smash 4 meta" and "everything will be more hype with customs" because both those statements could very well end up being wrong, and here's why:
1. The Smash 4 meta never needed saving. People complain too much about Sheik and Diddy players, but there are still a variety of interesting characters being played in tournaments and the matches can be entertaining. The real reason people think the Smash 4 meta needs "saving" isn't the characters, its the players. This game can be entertaining and exciting to watch, just take Boss' Luigi or 6WX's Sonic for example. They play aggressively and creatively. People complain when they see people like Dabuz or lloD camping and playing in a highly defensive manner. Players are the problem with the Smash 4 meta. We don't need customs to save it, but if competitors and not just spectators agree customs should be legalized for tournament play, then have at it.
2. Sure, perhaps some of the first majors featuring customs will be exciting for a bit. But after that, once certain characters and strategies rise above the rest, we'll begin seeing those far more often, and imagine ourselves right back where we started: spectators complaining about only a certain range of characters and methods being used. Granted, the customs meta isn't fully developed and won't be for ages, so perhaps camping won't be increased or perhaps it will. My main point here is that in the most likely scenario, even with customs, the game boils down to something similar and gives the spectators something to complain about.

Hopefully I was able to get my points across, rereading this post makes me realize some of the things I wrote might be a bit off-topic or confusing... I'm open to discussion, since customs are so new. Honestly, I was waiting until after EVO to have an informed opinion on customs, but this is all what's in my head as of now. Customs are new and exciting but we should integrate them with caution and careful examination.

 

[popsofctown]

Sure, perhaps some of the first majors featuring customs will be exciting for a bit. But after that, once certain characters and strategies rise above the rest, we'll begin seeing those far more often, and imagine ourselves right back where we started: spectators complaining about only a certain range of characters and methods being used.

There's a difference between viability of entire characters and little strategies though, and that's part of why customs are promising. For example, if you've watched the documentaries about Melee, they discuss a really hype tournament match where a Marth beat PCChris by starting to cleverly use Counter, a move that was considered very weak at the time. This happened at the highest level of play. Could the guy have switched from Marth to a low tier and offered something fresh that way? It would be much, much harder to do so without getting destroyed, because he has to forfeit all those other strengths Marth has to do that, rather than make a slight change. In the same way it will be easier to innovate with custom moves than it is to innovate with character choices, because the change is smaller and you don't have to throw away everything else that makes your character high tier (and everything else you learned while mastering the character) in order to shake things up or get an edge in a specific matchup. It's very likely this will result in variety.

 

[Jaxas]

Been looking for a place to post my opinion, so hopefully this is the right place to do it. *Exhale* Here we go.

I've seen TOO many people saying "customs are going to save the Smash 4 meta" and "everything will be more hype with customs" because both those statements could very well end up being wrong, and here's why:
1. The Smash 4 meta never needed saving. People complain too much about Sheik and Diddy players, but there are still a variety of interesting characters being played in tournaments and the matches can be entertaining. The real reason people think the Smash 4 meta needs "saving" isn't the characters, its the players. This game can be entertaining and exciting to watch, just take Boss' Luigi or 6WX's Sonic for example. They play aggressively and creatively. People complain when they see people like Dabuz or lloD camping and playing in a highly defensive manner. Players are the problem with the Smash 4 meta. We don't need customs to save it, but if competitors and not just spectators agree customs should be legalized for tournament play, then have at it.
2. Sure, perhaps some of the first majors featuring customs will be exciting for a bit. But after that, once certain characters and strategies rise above the rest, we'll begin seeing those far more often, and imagine ourselves right back where we started: spectators complaining about only a certain range of characters and methods being used. Granted, the customs meta isn't fully developed and won't be for ages, so perhaps camping won't be increased or perhaps it will. My main point here is that in the most likely scenario, even with customs, the game boils down to something similar and gives the spectators something to complain about.

Hopefully I was able to get my points across, rereading this post makes me realize some of the things I wrote might be a bit off-topic or confusing... I'm open to discussion, since customs are so new. Honestly, I was waiting until after EVO to have an informed opinion on customs, but this is all what's in my head as of now. Customs are new and exciting but we should integrate them with caution and careful examination.

Honestly I feel like customs are (or at least should be) being integrated not because it'll "save" Smash 4 (as you said, it's not in need of saving), nor because customs are hype by way of being customs. The reason that I'm at least pushing for customs legal is because it flat out makes more characters viable, and even those who aren't get closer, from what we've seen. Sure different strategies will rise to the top, but one of the points of customs is to have the largest number of 'viable' characters/loadouts at the top, so it's hopefully more than 1/2(/a small handful) at the top.

Will it work? It's looking good so far, but we'll just have to wait and see.

(Also, spectators will always complain. Some people you just can't please, and while it's obviously best to reduce the the stuff that people can legitimately complain about, sometimes you just have to ignore them and play your game)

 

[Pyr]

Honestly I feel like customs are (or at least should be) being integrated not because it'll "save" Smash 4 (as you said, it's not in need of saving), nor because customs are hype by way of being customs. The reason that I'm at least pushing for customs legal is because it flat out makes more characters viable, and even those who aren't get closer, from what we've seen. Sure different strategies will rise to the top, but one of the points of customs is to have the largest number of 'viable' characters/loadouts at the top, so it's hopefully more than 1/2(/a small handful) at the top.

Will it work? It's looking good so far, but we'll just have to wait and see.

(Also, spectators will always complain. Some people you just can't please, and while it's obviously best to reduce the the stuff that people can legitimately complain about, sometimes you just have to ignore them and play your game)

I can hear Doctor Mario, Palutena, Ganon, and DK clapping from a distance.

 

[VKatana]

Have any customs been used that are widely considered broken or unbalanced? I've seen players like ZeRo mention on Twitter that certain customs may need to be banned, but they never really mention any specifics. Anyone have any idea of any kind of game-breaking strategies/customs might actually need to be banned? If none of them need to be banned, are there any that will evidently cause campy play? (Certain villager customs come to mind...)

And on the topic of customs pushing low-tier/generally garbage characters up, I can support the use of customs for that. I don't know the potential of every single custom move, but as long as I can watch a customs-on match and say that both the players used their moves smartly and that the players rather than the moves are good, then customs are a-okay. This probably won't end up being a problem, but I'm just kind of paranoid that there's some insane custom I don't know about.

 

[Jaxas]

Have any customs been used that are widely considered broken or unbalanced? I've seen players like ZeRo mention on Twitter that certain customs may need to be banned, but they never really mention any specifics. Anyone have any idea of any kind of game-breaking strategies/customs might actually need to be banned? If none of them need to be banned, are there any that will evidently cause campy play? (Certain villager customs come to mind...)

And on the topic of customs pushing low-tier/generally garbage characters up, I can support the use of customs for that. I don't know the potential of every single custom move, but as long as I can watch a customs-on match and say that both the players used their moves smartly and that the players rather than the moves are good, then customs are a-okay. This probably won't end up being a problem, but I'm just kind of paranoid that there's some insane custom I don't know about.

Gonna summon @Thinkaman because from what I've seen he has a solid idea on it.
Short answer though is that the only one that warrants a ban is Order Pikmin Tackle + a reflector in teams, due to a glitch.

 

[Pyr]

Have any customs been used that are widely considered broken or unbalanced? I've seen players like ZeRo mention on Twitter that certain customs may need to be banned, but they never really mention any specifics. Anyone have any idea of any kind of game-breaking strategies/customs might actually need to be banned? If none of them need to be banned, are there any that will evidently cause campy play? (Certain villager customs come to mind...)

Right now, I don't think any customs justify bans. Anyone who says otherwise has yet to prove that something is so overpowering that the benefits vastly outweigh the tradeoffs and that the character becomes that custom. It is a matter of experience with the "OP" custom. For example, if you post something here, I'll let you know why it's not a big deal.

Yes, this includes DK's wind punch thing.

 

[COLINBG]

Have any customs been used that are widely considered broken or unbalanced? I've seen players like ZeRo mention on Twitter that certain customs may need to be banned, but they never really mention any specifics. Anyone have any idea of any kind of game-breaking strategies/customs might actually need to be banned? If none of them need to be banned, are there any that will evidently cause campy play? (Certain villager customs come to mind...)

There's no broken custom as far as I know. Villager's Timber Counter is arguably the best one because of the crazy stage control and setups it gives him, but it's still managable. Certains characters are a lot better with them, but nothing that necessits a ban, quite the contrary (it balances things out). And since the testing is kinda recent, there's a lot of hype that overexaggerates the impact certain moves will have.

 

[Pyr]

There's no broken custom as far as I know. Villager's Timber Counter is arguably the best one because of the crazy stage control and setups it gives him, but it's still managable. Certains characters are a lot better with them, but nothing that necessits a ban, quite the contrary (it balances things out). And since the testing is kinda recent, there's a lot of hype that overexaggerates the impact certain moves will have.

^
This.

In reference to Timber Counter: It's stationary and the Axe becomes next to useless with it. You lose a strong KO move for a Banana that doesn't move and a tree that is meh-ish.

 

[VKatana]

Right now, I don't think any customs justify bans. Anyone who says otherwise has yet to prove that something is so overpowering that the benefits vastly outweigh the tradeoffs and that the character becomes that custom. It is a matter of experience with the "OP" custom. For example, if you post something here, I'll let you know why it's not a big deal.

Yes, this includes DK's wind punch thing.

What can you tell me about the Doc Tornado custom that everyone keeps posting gfycats of on the subreddit? I'm not quite sure which one it is, but I've seen clips of it killing at 35% on Pit and 40-50% on Ganondorf. Are they just DI-ing poorly or does it require precise spacing, like Marth's tipper?

 

[COLINBG]

^
This.

In reference to Timber Counter: It's stationary and the Axe becomes next to useless with it. You lose a strong KO move for a Banana that doesn't move and a tree that is meh-ish.

Except it's a banana that renders a portion of the stage dangerous for the opponent for 15 seconds, provides safety for villager by simply standing on it while still letting you use all your A moves, and the opponent can't use it against you. The tree is good too, it still has KO potential, and the counter has pretty decent knockback. You can also snipe it with Fairs to hit someone who thinks he's safe near it because you're away. This basically means your slingshots have a bigger range with better knockback, and you gain access to an almost instant punish on about half of FD (the opponent doesn't even have to attack, just being there is punishable).

It's better than people give it credit for.

And getting rushed down is one of Villager's weaknesses. The simple fact that he can't get rushed down so easily now makes it a fantastic move.

 

[VKatana]

And since the testing is kinda recent, there's a lot of hype that overexaggerates the impact certain moves will have.

This is probably one of the biggest issues with customs to be honest. There isn't a lot of concrete stats on the moves or anything like that, so stuff ends up getting blown out of proportion.

 

[Pyr]

What can you tell me about the Doc Tornado custom that everyone keeps posting gfycats of on the subreddit? I'm not quite sure which one it is, but I've seen clips of it killing at 35% on Pit and 40-50% on Ganondorf. Are they just DI-ing poorly or does it require precise spacing, like Marth's tipper?

No. The move is beastly if it hits. Thing is, it's hitbox is HUGE. Like, 2x the size of Doc at the end of the move itself. And, because it's base KB is very high, and they're trying to stage spike, they get hit to the closest blast zone.

Thing about it is, if the people in those gifs were to wait .25 seconds more, the hitbox would be done and Doc would be vulnerable until he falls the distance of his "Ol One-Two" special. He can't do anything for that distance.

Anyone getting killed by it in any other way is getting punished hard, because the thing has like 40 frames before the hitbox that does damage comes out. It can't be true combo-d into, either.


Tl;DR People aren't respecting it, so they're dying from it.

Edit:

1. Soaring Tornado (aerial)
2. Frame 10-33: [0%]x6 100f/40w 361°
3. Frame 40-58: 6.72% 90b/120g (KO@ 117%) 42° 2.0-Hitlag
4. Max Damage: 6.72%

So, it has a windbox for 23 frames, a hitbox with 18 active frames starting at frame 40. Respect those 18 frames and punish from there. It only does 7 damage, so it's not exactly going to shield stun you for a year. If you wait it out, shield it at the edge, w/e, and hit Doc after frame 58, he's dead. He can't use it again after being hit UNLESS he grabs the ledge or touches the ground first.

Also, ground is the same. See:

1. Soaring Tornado (ground)
2. Frame 10-33: [0%]x6 100f/40w 361°
3. Frame 40-58: 6.72% 90b/120g (KO@ 117%) 42° 2.0-Hitlag
4. Max Damage: 6.72%

 

[VKatana]

Thanks for bringing me up to speed so thoroughly! Could you possibly link me to the source for that frame/damage data?

 

[Pyr]

Thanks for bringing me up to speed so thoroughly! Could you possibly link me to the source for that frame/damage data?

Of course.

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...-every-character-now-with-ko-percents.383550/

One of the links there is this: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8. It's full data. It uses Japanese names, though. And unique ones. Ex: Dr is MarioD.

 

[Tential]

So basically, I can use custom move sets, but only the ones people say are "good". If I want to use my own, I can't because it's not "good enough". But I'm sure if a Pro changes his custom move sets on a char, the custom moveset viable list will be updated to include their changes. But if I want to use my own custom move set that's not "good" I have to join Smashboards, and write an essay on why my moveset is good and then hope other people agree with me "theory craft". It's not even possible to show your favorite custom movesets (if they aren't available) at major tournaments to prove they're good because you won't be allowed to use anything but the predetermined ones. The hurdle for a lesser known player to get their moveset in a tournament vs a well known pro streamer is going to be much harder.

Been looking for a place to post my opinion, so hopefully this is the right place to do it. *Exhale* Here we go.

I've seen TOO many people saying "customs are going to save the Smash 4 meta" and "everything will be more hype with customs" because both those statements could very well end up being wrong, and here's why:
1. The Smash 4 meta never needed saving. People complain too much about Sheik and Diddy players, but there are still a variety of interesting characters being played in tournaments and the matches can be entertaining. The real reason people think the Smash 4 meta needs "saving" isn't the characters, its the players. This game can be entertaining and exciting to watch, just take Boss' Luigi or 6WX's Sonic for example. They play aggressively and creatively. People complain when they see people like Dabuz or lloD camping and playing in a highly defensive manner. Players are the problem with the Smash 4 meta. We don't need customs to save it, but if competitors and not just spectators agree customs should be legalized for tournament play, then have at it.
2. Sure, perhaps some of the first majors featuring customs will be exciting for a bit. But after that, once certain characters and strategies rise above the rest, we'll begin seeing those far more often, and imagine ourselves right back where we started: spectators complaining about only a certain range of characters and methods being used. Granted, the customs meta isn't fully developed and won't be for ages, so perhaps camping won't be increased or perhaps it will. My main point here is that in the most likely scenario, even with customs, the game boils down to something similar and gives the spectators something to complain about.

Hopefully I was able to get my points across, rereading this post makes me realize some of the things I wrote might be a bit off-topic or confusing... I'm open to discussion, since customs are so new. Honestly, I was waiting until after EVO to have an informed opinion on customs, but this is all what's in my head as of now. Customs are new and exciting but we should integrate them with caution and careful examination.

Can't agree more with this post.

Don't want to take the thread off topic but I feel it segways so much other things about the smash community as a whole.

I also feel the twitch generation of gamers just isn't very creative.

 

[TheASDF]

So basically, I can use custom move sets, but only the ones people say are "good". If I want to use my own, I can't because it's not "good enough". But I'm sure if a Pro changes his custom move sets on a char, the custom moveset viable list will be updated to include their changes. But if I want to use my own custom move set that's not "good" I have to join Smashboards, and write an essay on why my moveset is good and then hope other people agree with me "theory craft". It's not even possible to show your favorite custom movesets (if they aren't available) at major tournaments to prove they're good because you won't be allowed to use anything but the predetermined ones. The hurdle for a lesser known player to get their moveset in a tournament vs a well known pro streamer is going to be much harder.

Right, but this is supposed to only be the case for EVO - a necessary evil to have customs legal. In almost every other tournament, there should be the option to upload, because the time constraints won't be as pressing. This isn't supposed to dictate which ones everyone can use; most of the time it's just supposed to be a time-saver. Do you want customs legal in general? Because if so, they pretty much need to be legal at EVO or most tourneys won't run them, and unless you can come up with a better solution this is the only real feasible way to do so.

And there's plenty of people who don't think the game "needs saving" and still want customs legal. I'm not trying to fix the game, I'm hoping for it to reach its full potential.

 

[Rehnquist]

"I can't have my thing so others shouldn't have theirs" .

This complaint/argument line has been repeated multiple times in the same thread, not only that it has already has been answered in excruciating detail by multiple people but it gives you plenty of opportunity to actually advance this argument yet you chose not to. If you are going to throw out an already countered claim that has been repeated many times in previous posts, it might be better to actually reply to one of those who have attempted to debunk the argument.

We have people who want to try customs in a single tourney. Evo decided to try it and found the easiest way to do it logistically. We have people who don't want things taking a long time. Presets are easily taken care of by the 3ds if they are required (may not be needed) which allows for easy acquisition of customs for all wii u's so they don't have to be earned. It saves time by being easy to access from character selection and keeps things honest/inexpensive without requiring members to bring a 3ds for their own set. That literally reduces all the major issues with running a customs tourney in this stage of the game. If its the name that bothers you, then we can call EVO a preset tournament if you are so concerned.

We do this so we can add 10 different options for each character rather than deny all other options because we can't add more than 10 sets.

I would be very much interested in hearing your reasoning how this argument line is at all sound as it pertains to this particular critique which keeps getting propped up that never seems to advance its reasoning beyond regurgitating the original statement, I've been waiting for a logical reply, perhaps you can be the one to help cure my ignorance. The way I see it the people who don't want customs because they just simply hate all customs have a more logical argument than this particular view point.

 

[Tryble]

But I'm sure if a Pro changes his custom move sets on a char, the custom moveset viable list will be updated to include their changes.

Nope. Have you actually read the custom moveset project thread? A custom set doesn't get in unless there are merits to it over other sets. There hasn't been a single instance of a pro getting a set in without explaining why it should displace other sets. The sets are chosen by consensus, and if you refuse to take part in that discussion then your choices may be left out and you're out of luck, deal with it.
There are usually 3 'niche' custom move set slots, minimum, per character. If you feel your choice has merit, then say so. Nobody's asking you to write a friggen' essay. Just make your points.

Besides, if you go and read the custom set discussion for your character, maybe you'll realized why certain sets land in the top 3 "critical sets" slots. If you try them, maybe you'll see why they got there over your own more niche choices. Hint: It's because they're good.

 

[Judo777]

There's no broken custom as far as I know. Villager's Timber Counter is arguably the best one because of the crazy stage control and setups it gives him, but it's still managable. Certains characters are a lot better with them, but nothing that necessits a ban, quite the contrary (it balances things out). And since the testing is kinda recent, there's a lot of hype that overexaggerates the impact certain moves will have.

Villagers extreme balloons is his best custom bar none. That is a freaking ridiculous custom move.