I don't agree with customs at evo, and here's why..

[Teh Sandwich]

With pre determined sets, and no uploading, I feel like since I'm not a regular in my mains' (link) boards, I'm already at a huge disadvantage.

I unlocked all his customs, and determined my favorite set (1233). Now looking at the moves set project, I see it's not one of the sets. Really, I don't even like the options that are there.
Now I am obligated to go to the link boards and try to convince everyone that my set (out of the many possibilities) should be one out of the ten that are available. This is a big problem because many people compete and don't post on this site. So right away, all smashboards regulars have an advantage.

I feel the only real way to fairly do customs is with online tourneys. Many people in my state have already made it clear, they will drop the game if customs become the norm.

It's just sounding like too much of a mess. I feel this game (competitively) is better off without them.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

With pre determined sets, and no uploading, I feel like since I'm not a regular in my mains' (link) boards, I'm already at a huge disadvantage.

I unlocked all his customs, and determined my favorite set (1233). Now looking at the moves set project, I see it's not one of the sets. Really, I don't even like the options that are there.
Now I am obligated to go to the link boards and try to convince everyone that my set (out of the many possibilities) should be one out of the ten that are available. This is a big problem because many people compete and don't post on this site. So right away, all smashboards regulars have an advantage.

This is, unfortunately, a logistical issue that a tournament the size of EVO just can't solve. There's no other way to do it. Configuring on the fly? Takes extra time (which the TOs at EVO hate), and requires the WiiU to have all the specials unlocked (fat chance) or for you to have brought your 3DS with all the moves unlocked. So what are the options? Well, try to find the best sets, and work from there. That's our option. Or, don't. Don't use customs at all, which is definitely not preferable.

What's so special about 1233? Go to the link boards and make your case. If it's a good set, then great - you can convince them. If it's not (I don't know Link's specials, but I've seen people demand some ridiculously bad sets), then you can switch to a better, more viable set.

I feel the only real way to fairly do customs is with online tourneys. Many people in my state have already made it clear, they will drop the game if customs become the norm.

And they are a tiny minority. Over 80% of the community here thinks customs are a good idea.

 

[cot(θ)]

If customs are off, there's no chance whatsoever of you getting to use your preferred set. Once customs aren't so experimental, it's likely that more tournaments, especially smaller tournaments, will let you load your own custom moveset.

 

[Raijinken]

Honestly, the only issue with your setup is that you're running the recovery-focused UpB. I know for a while Ampharos was considering at least one of those on each character, and since we're looking to expand to a 10-set list instead of 6-8, there may be room yet. Generally that sort of move is frowned upon for being literally useless to attack with and whatnot, but there could be some merit considering how extremely niche Spin Attack is to begin with.

The important thing is to start discussion. In a worst case scenario, 1213 is the same in most cases unless you just really rely on that recovery, so I think you'd probably be fine either way. It's a lot harder being a player with entirely nonconventional setups rather than having 3/4 of the most common on your list.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

I just feel there is no way to do this fairly. I'm still not completely against it, I just don't want people to have an advantage over others.

And don't sit here and tell me what is wrong with my set. I have a sick nasty link game, and I know how I like to play. But I should't have to argue with other link mains that they should play with my set.

 

[Raijinken]

I just feel there is no way to do this fairly. I'm still not completely against it, I just don't want people to have an advantage over others.

And don't sit here and tell me what is wrong with my set. I have a sick nasty link game, and I know how I like to play. But I should't have to argue with other link mains that they should play with my set.

That's the thing, though. If you're unable to convince them of the benefits of Whirling Leap, then the status quo remains, and your set won't be in the list. Especially if you can make a case for the flexibility of his offstage game with that recovery (after all, he can't bomb jump with meteor bombs), it's quite possible you could talk 1233 into the list.

And I apologize, I didn't mean to word that in a condescending way. I meant the only reason it's not one of the existing sets is because you use an unusual recovery, which the initial project apparently didn't feel was worthy. More analysis has led to a lot of changed views on certain moves, though. I'm inclined to test this one out more and see what I can come up with, too.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I just feel there is no way to do this fairly. I'm still not completely against it, I just don't want people to have an advantage over others.

And don't sit here and tell me what is wrong with my set. I have a sick nasty link game, and I know how I like to play. But I should't have to argue with other link mains that they should play with my set.

When a total of 81 possible sets (or 80, I can't remember if 1111 is included in that number) are fighting for representation in one of 10 possible slots, then yes you'll have to fight for your set to be included. The thread for Link is right here. March on over and start talking. From the looks of things, 1213 is already a very well-liked set so you really just have to debate the value of Whirling Leap over Spin Attack. (Or Shocking Spin, I guess.)

Put it this way: If you're going to a tournament that you know is using AA's project, but don't actually contribute to the discussion used to decide which sets will be added, then you don't have much grounds to complain when your set is not there.

 

[TheASDF]

This is a big problem because many people compete and don't post on this site. So right away, all smashboards regulars have an advantage.

This seems like a strange argument. It takes mere minutes to set up a Smashboards account, and if your argument is strong enough, then the chances of your set being included are pretty good.

 

[HeroMystic]

Honestly, I find the OP to have some merit with what he's saying. Looking from the outside-in, the fact we have to make ten custom sets and force players to use them is pretty silly. Unfortunately there's nothing we can do about this because the EVO staff doesn't want any more time wasted (especially for Smash since we're easily the event that takes the most time), and Nintendo did a very poor job with the UI for selecting customs.

However, this is why we as a community has always steered the competitive rulesets. So honestly, this is nothing new. If customs become the norm then I'm 100% certain we'll be able to become more flexible with custom sets in the future.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Put it this way: If you're going to a tournament that you know is using AA's project, but don't actually contribute to the discussion used to decide which sets will be added, then you don't have much grounds to complain when your set is not there.

Pretty much.

I mean, really, I think it's dumb to have to lobby on a forum for your preferred set in a locked-set tournament. As pro-customs as I am in general, this is really my one big issue with the project (despite not being the fault of the project itself, but a drawback of the way Smash 4 works). While most characters are probably going to be fine in a 10-set format, there's always going to be that one character that gets legitimately shortchanged and more than a handful of players who will be late to the party on how this whole process has been laid out.

It's why I've really been trying to push my local scene for more experimentation and participation with customs. The sooner everyone gets involved, the sooner there can be real consensus and as few people left out in the cold as possible.

 

[popsofctown]

If EVO is banning uploading, then that's what the issue is. It really doesn't take that long to upload.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

If EVO is banning uploading, then that's what the issue is. It really doesn't take that long to upload.

But then you get into the question of whether its fair for 3DS users to have an edge over players who don't have a 3DS. I don't blame TOs for banning 3DS for that reason alone to be honest, although I personally don't have a strong opinion on it either way.

I'm also not sure if 3DS uploads can be abused at all. Can you sneak custom equipment uploads into a transferred set without detection? I honestly don't know.

 

[Raijinken]

But then you get into the question of whether its fair for 3DS users to have an edge over players who don't have a 3DS. I don't blame TOs for banning 3DS for that reason alone to be honest, although I personally don't have a strong opinion on it either way.

Most (in my opinion, all, but that's a bit overbroad) serious tournament scenes should be able to find at least one person in attendance with a full unlocked 3DS on hand, or have one tournament staff with it on call for uploads. It adds more time, for sure, but there's nothing that says it has to be on the user to provide the 3DS.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm also not sure if 3DS uploads can be abused at all. Can you sneak custom equipment uploads into a transferred set without detection? I honestly don't know.

Every piece of equipment alters numerical stats. Simply check the character and and it'll tell you if stats have been altered through a circular diagram (labeling it as Brusier, Speedster, or Defender). If there are no stat changes, it's completely white and will say "Balanced".

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Every piece of equipment alters numerical stats. Simply check the character and and it'll tell you if stats have been altered through a circular diagram (labeling it as Brusier, Speedster, or Defender). If there are no stat changes, it's completely white and will say "Balanced".

What happens when all the stat boosts balance out but a bonus effect is still applied?

 

[Player -0]

Time is everything at a tournament like Evo, it also adds that much more stress.

 

[popsofctown]

But then you get into the question of whether its fair for 3DS users to have an edge over players who don't have a 3DS. I don't blame TOs for banning 3DS for that reason alone to be honest, although I personally don't have a strong opinion on it either way.

I'm also not sure if 3DS uploads can be abused at all. Can you sneak custom equipment uploads into a transferred set without detection? I honestly don't know.

At smaller tournaments, Raijinken's model is appropriate, a TO or friendly attender of the tournament can provide the custom moves. At EVO, with big money, big entry fees, and big travel costs, I think it would be fine for them to say that the tournament staff doesn't have time to help out with that and will put it on the player to have a 2DS and smash cartridge that costed less than their plane ticket so they can upload their custom specials.

 

[popsofctown]

What happens when all the stat boosts balance out but a bonus effect is still applied?

Bonus effects are clearly listed during the upload process. I think they might show up at CSS screen in Wii U too, not sure about that.

 

[HeroMystic]

Bonus effects are clearly listed during the upload process. I think they might show up at CSS screen in Wii U too, not sure about that.

They don't show up on the CSS.

To answer @ S Sixfortyfive 's question though, it'll just show up as "Balanced" with a clear white circle since there's no status changes. It's very difficult to hit perfect 0 on all stats but it's possible to place all the stats in the negatives which for some reason also shows up at "Balanced".

 

[DunnoBro]

Most characters -really- don't have that many viable sets. The most cluttered one was the ganon boards', but that was just because they couldn't decide which punch was least useless.

Also, your particular set had others in the customs thread vouching for it. It only barely didn't make the cut, with 10 slots it should be fine.

However, you're right. The preset project isn't perfect, and even if not you, or many players, there will be players unable to use their specific, preferred set. Casuals, semi-competitives, or just plain test sets will have issues.

Despite this, I'm sure in every situation that happens, their character will still be more complete than if customs weren't allowed at all. And EVO with customs will foster an environment for the future where custom sets of all sorts will be more accessible and logistical in the long run.

Even now, players are scrambling to unlock customs to prepare. I don't think it's beyond the realm of reality that by years end, there may be no need for any type or preset project. (Though I think inherently they help speed things up, they don't need to be presets or nothing, after all)

 

[Sixfortyfive]

To answer @ S Sixfortyfive 's question though, it'll just show up as "Balanced" with a clear white circle since there's no status changes. It's very difficult to hit perfect 0 on all stats but it's possible to place all the stats in the negatives which for some reason also shows up at "Balanced".

How difficult would it be with an Action Replay sort of device, though?

Considering that everyone encourages the use of Powersaves to unlock everything in the first place.

 

[DunnoBro]

How difficult would it be with an Action Replay sort of device, though?

Considering that everyone encourages the use of Powersaves to unlock everything in the first place.

You can't transfer a set with hacked equipment to Wii U from 3ds, so it wouldn't help much at all.

The only equipment that can be gained from action replay and also transferred to Wii U are the ones everyone has access to anyway, as they're acquired via completing challenges.

You're free to check if some combination accomplishes this. But not only do I doubt it, but the point is rather moot considering how easy it is to check for that. (As well as actually apply the set to the tournament set-up you will be using with no one noticing)

It's honestly akin to someone using action replay Wii to alter brawl/pm in their favor somehow. Extremely unlikely, not just due to motive, but ability. And again, it'd be very easy to find out if someone used equipment. All you need to do is check the CCSS.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

(As well as actually apply the set to the tournament set-up you will be using with no one noticing)

I've seen top 8s in Marvel go through several matches without game patches before anyone noticed, despite there being a ton of eyes on the projector and tell-tale signs that every player and TO should know to look for in the menus. Never underestimate negligence, especially in pools stations where a single judge can't see everything at once.

I'll try and do more research myself when I have time.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

Well, I've said what was on my mind.
I'm neither fully for or against this. So I guess I'll just have to see how it plays out. I know I will always play smash 4. I have hella fun competing, and it's still my favorite of the series.
And I am comfortable enough with my smash fundamentals that I know ill be able to adapt to whatever I need to.
My only hope is that this game stays popular amongst the competitive fighting community!

 

[DunnoBro]

I've seen top 8s in Marvel go through several matches without game patches before anyone noticed, despite there being a ton of eyes on the projector and tell-tale signs that every player and TO should know to look for in the menus. Never underestimate negligence, especially in pools stations where a single judge can't see everything at once.

I'll try and do more research myself when I have time.

No game patches is one thing since it can be attributed to player negligence, but using equipment is direct misconduct that can be called out immediately or anytime afterwards with any level of suspicion by checking the CCSS of the character they used.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

This is giving me a serious feeling of deja-vu here. Kind of like 4 moveset slot syndrome for competitive Pokemon, only now it is 10 custom set syndrome for Smash 4. lol

But yeah, @ DunnoBro is right. Most characters honestly don't have that many viable sets. There will be a couple of characters that will have problems finding room for specific sets since everyone (besides Miis) are limited to 10, but for most characters, this won't be much of a problem.

For the characters this is a problem with though, it is up to the respective members of each character board to try to push for the most optimal sets, before a consensus on what should be locked as the best overall sets is done in preparation for EVO/other tournaments.

 

[John12346]

Also, if someone tries to sneak in negative equipment I would actually consider that grounds for blacklisting, honestly, not just DQ. Trying to be sneaky like that is also hindered by the fact that there are ways to determine where a custom set came from(if imported).

 

[Gawain]

If EVO is banning uploading, then that's what the issue is. It really doesn't take that long to upload.

When you're running hundreds or thousands of people, it adds up. The amount of time it takes to you may not seem like much, but you aren't thinking in a macro sense.

 

[Sodo]

I see what OP is saying and I agree to a certain extent. If someone is playing Diddy and uses Exploding Popgun but still places in the tournament, who is to say what set really is best? If I can compete and win with that set why should I be forced to play with something considered "more viable" by the community but not myself? That's an extreme example but you get the gist. As other posters have mentioned, however, a tournament the size of EVO simply can't cater to a situation as minute as that. Hopefully we will find a workaround, but until then it is the way it is.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

If EVO is banning uploading, then that's what the issue is. It really doesn't take that long to upload.

There's nothing we can do about that, though. Smash is already one of, if not the longest event at EVO. Even taking 30 extra seconds is a big deal to them.

If I can compete and win with that set why should I be forced to play with something considered "more viable" by the community but not myself?

I'm pretty sure the original idea was to have four open slots for people to upload their own sets from their 3DS. The problem is that, like I was saying, EVO does not want Smash to take any longer than it needs to be. Being allowed to upload your own set would be fine at smaller tournaments, but it's not feasible at EVO.

 

[Sodo]

The problem is that, like I was saying, EVO does not want Smash to take any longer than it needs to be. Being allowed to upload your own set would be fine at smaller tournaments, but it's not feasible at EVO.

Right, I mentioned that in the latter part of my post. Obviously they are trying to keep it as short as possible, but I still think OP has a point. I'd like to be see players be able to use whatever set they like, regardless of how "bad" it may seem to the rest of the community. But I do understand the time constraints and the process that TOs go through to make sure everything runs smoothly. Hopefully we see a workaround in the future.

 

[popsofctown]

There's nothing we can do about that, though. Smash is already one of, if not the longest event at EVO. Even taking 30 extra seconds is a big deal to them.

"Smash" is not the longest event at EVO, there is no event named "Smash" at EVO this year. There is a "Super Smash Bros. Melee" event, which has a max 24 minutes in game time, and there is a "Super Smash Bros. for Wii U" event, which has a max 15 minutes in game time. Unless uploading takes a massive 9 minutes, it's unlikely that being allowed to upload your own set would make Smash Bros. for Wii U the longest event of EVO this year.

 

[Pepperz]

They have to allow up loads of builds mid tournament or they are going to screw over the people that don't push their builds online. I run a 1312 villager build but don't see it in the preload builds. It's very underrated.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

They have to allow up loads of builds mid tournament or they are going to screw over the people that don't push their builds online. I run a 1312 villager build but don't see it in the preload builds. It's very underrated.

Villager's thread is here. Head on over and start up a discussion.

 

[KingJames]

I see what OP is saying and I agree to a certain extent. If someone is playing Diddy and uses Exploding Popgun but still places in the tournament, who is to say what set really is best? If I can compete and win with that set why should I be forced to play with something considered "more viable" by the community but not myself? That's an extreme example but you get the gist. As other posters have mentioned, however, a tournament the size of EVO simply can't cater to a situation as minute as that. Hopefully we will find a workaround, but until then it is the way it is.

Good point

 

[T0MMY]

Making EVO the testing grounds for a large-scale rule change is asinine - the now-or-never movement doesn't even consider the adage "look before you leap". I was the proponent of easing into it, but I noticed the movement was behaving in a way that would end up shooting themselves in the foot and then it looked like a sinking ship that was taking others down with them. Desperation tactics like these are definitely not the kind of behavior a confident movement would take so I don't stand with them anymore. Puts me in the position of just leaving it to hope these issues that customs bring will be worked out if they are actually going to be used at Evo.

 

[DunnoBro]

Making EVO the testing grounds for a large-scale rule change is asinine - the now-or-never movement doesn't even consider the adage "look before you leap". I was the proponent of easing into it, but I noticed the movement was behaving in a way that would end up shooting themselves in the foot and then it looked like a sinking ship that was taking others down with them. Desperation tactics like these are definitely not the kind of behavior a confident movement would take so I don't stand with them anymore. Puts me in the position of just leaving it to hope these issues that customs bring will be worked out if they are actually going to be used at Evo.

I'm not convinced advocating for the meta to be tested at a high level in half a year from now is so much a "leap" as it is a long, shaky path. One that we are very much easing into, but also one that had to be done in a rather timely fashion.

Even as the customs proponent I am, having used duck hunt since day one japanese 3ds, am still irked by having to relearn such an already technical character. And it also makes the prospect of learning new characters now less appealing as they'll likely be invalidated even sooner.

But these are issues that are ever-present and/or will grow stronger as time goes on.

I do agree with the sentiment that making EVO the testing ground is not the absolutely best scenario, but it does seem to the most feasible one allowed to us. To deny that desperation was not a factor would admittedly be a lie on my part, but in response I would instead ask why it's a bad thing? The players decided what they wanted themselves. Why is supply and demand suddenly a toxic business model?

 

[T0MMY]

I do agree with the sentiment that making EVO the testing ground is not the absolutely best scenario, but it does seem to the most feasible one allowed to us. To deny that desperation was not a factor would admittedly be a lie on my part, but in response I would instead ask why it's a bad thing? The players decided what they wanted themselves. Why is supply and demand suddenly a toxic business model?

I think desperation being the motivational force behind making decisions for the entire community goes without saying.
And to assume it is the players deciding what they wanted for themselves seems to be unfounded. The only people I know who are going to be playing in Evo were against Customs, but many who were not attending were pro-customs.
I was planning on going to Evo, but have second thoughts seeing as I don't think it'll be fun being janked out by custom glitches I've been seeing and surprised by the secret ones to be used at Evo when everyone is ok with having fun with a still new metagame that doesn't need anything changed at this time.
Leave customs to mature a bit and bring them into Evo 2016.

 

[DunnoBro]

I don't think it'll be fun being janked out by custom glitches I've been seeing and surprised by the secret ones to be used at Evo when everyone is ok with having fun with a still new metagame that doesn't need anything changed at this time.
Leave customs to mature a bit and bring them into Evo 2016.

You do understand we'd have had to do this eventually regardless, right? That "secrets" people have with customs would always be kept a secret before a major tournament if they planned on doing so, right? There was also no reason to expect customs to mature by any relevant measure by EVO 2016 without either a major tournament announcing they'd use it, or many local tournaments doing similar en masse.

I understand your frustration, but to deny these issues were unavoidable no matter when customs were implemented is what's actually asinine.

What I think you're actually upset about is how it's replaced default, not these issues, and I agree. I'd have preferred customs became a side or co-tournament, perhaps even replacing doubles. It would still be a national event people would want to prepare for, and due to the logistics of it (not needing a specific partner to practice for) it could still deliver the test meta we desired without alienating other players.

But the fact is, it was still the best place and time to implement them. Every issue you brought up would still be one a year, two years from now... The only time-sensitive issue is how.

And to assume it is the players deciding what they wanted for themselves seems to be unfounded.

The majority of players everywhere want customs, according to polls both for EVO and Xanadu. I don't now why EVO players would be so different.

 

[Darklink401]

I think having the 10 most popular sets is great, as a lot of the 80 something possibilties are simply not that good.


As long as vanilla is always an option, of course.