Hyrule Banned Tier List

[LiteralGrill]

Edited For More Clarity ​

So, we all should know by now Hyrule Castle will be banned at Apex. I've watched some speculation that this will change the tier list in some ways, and it seems that some say it will and others say it wont.

Well, how about we do a little vote and see what the players think? This can be a fun casual way to see if players think a major change will actually happen, and to discuss Hyrule being banned in general.

The current tier list is as follows:

S:
A: -
B: -
C: - - -
D: - -

Now, post your tier list WITH HYRULE BANNED. This would have Dreamland as the first stage played on with Congo Jungle and Peach's Castle as counterpicks.

If you think there are no changes needed at all, just put NO CHANGES in bold in your post and I can count it from that.

I will compile all of the votes and average the numbers then order them from least to greatest. Then, I will split them up into tiers based on the differences between the numbers. I'll keep this open and updated until the end of October at which I'll put up the final results.

To have your vote counted, you must list all 12 characters in your order from best to worst.

Please when you post your tier lists explain any changes you made to the original playlist to justify any changes you made.

Note: This is in no way associated with the Smash 64 Backroom in any way. Nothing here reflects the opinions of the Smash 64 Backroom and is in no way accociated with its official tier list.

With the "legalities" done, post your lists and discuss Hyrule Castle being banned!

 

[Zenyore]

BEST: -
A: - -
B: -
C: -
Vomit: - - (pwnt)

 

[SheerMadness]

Fox is still better than Mario on dreamland.

 

[Zenyore]

IMHO no. He's still a top 5 doe

All of these mite b hard to deduce without a new MU chart for that matter

 

[LiteralGrill]

Tier Lidt

I gotta seriously ask about your list, you moves a bunch of characters around a LOT. Care to explain the reasoning?

 

[Zenyore]

I gotta seriously ask about your list, you moves a bunch of characters around a LOT. Care to explain the reasoning?

I didnt really agree with the original tier list actually, so some of these dont have to do with Hyrule being banned i.e. Ness always being vomit

 

[LiteralGrill]

I didnt really agree with the original tier list actually, so some of these dont have to do with Hyrule being banned i.e. Ness always being vomit

Fair enough, I shouldn't be surprised if some other opinions come up like this.

But are you sure on Kirby over Pika?

 

[Cobrevolution]

i hope people don't create a list based purely on DL what with hyrule being banned. congo and peach's still exist.

may as well make three separate lists then average them together.

 

[Zenyore]

I put Kirby over Rat for the simple fact that it is easier to do well with Kirby than with Pika.

In the long term, a mastered rat is probably more effective, but all in all a B tier Kirby would perform better against an A player than a B tier Rat.

@cobr I actually took other stages in consideration with that list. Fox could mostly shine on Hyrule (lolpun) because of rapetent and the scale allowing him to laser more efficiently than on other maps. His punishable recovery outweighs his comboing potential and that's why I put him behind Plummer.

 

[Yobolight]

S: -
A: -
B: -
C: - -
D: -
E:

Tier list weighs match ups against high tiers more heavily than against low tiers.

 

[Cobrevolution]

samus still gets wrecked by the entire cast on dreamland...i don't trust any tier list that doesn't have her at the bottom.

 

[mixa]

How to Tier-List-Discuss, or A Rant:

tl;dr: I hate these threads.



You have to have a methodology. All I see is "I will post the results".

Are results given in numbers? why​

Do we need to justify our opinions? we better​

Is it by vote? Does every vote count? the same? why​

How are you gonna rearrange the votes/opinions into a final result? why​

I'm not even gonna get into what a Tier List should mean and what should count and what shouldn't, bcuz **** tiers lists.​

You have to have an MU chart. You are implicitly using one already.

To do an MU chart, you need 1. a methodology! 2. to do the MU for each stage and then find a way to ponder that into a final result. Here's why:

Let's say that:

Link vs Kirby on Hyrule is: Link +2. (+2 would mean that Link, on average, 2-stocks Kirby on Hyrule)​

Link vs Kirby on DL is: Kirby +4 ​

​

You still have to consider Congo, and Peach's or whatever stage list you want. After that, you need to find a way to make all those numbers into one single number.​

If you don't do it separately, and just say "Link vs Kirby is Kirby +3", you're still doing it separately, but in your head, using some arcane pondering factor not even you know.


Now that you have the MU chart, you start your tier list discussion. Or don't, isn't the MU enough? Are you doing Free4all? It's 1x1. Also, If we focus on MU discussions, something useful might come up. But whatever.


Then you need to discriminate what rules you're playing under. And by that I don't mean what stages are legal, I mean the rules. Is there DSR? Is there stage striking? Is it Chain-Ace's ruleset? Are Kirby players more likely to pause mid-match? Is the crowd against you character? Are Australians around? and so on and so forth.


"lol no that's too much work, this is a x-year old game blablabla"

yeah, well, y'know, that's why tier lists discussions suck.

 

[Yobolight]

samus still gets wrecked by the entire cast on dreamland...i don't trust any tier list that doesn't have her at the bottom.

I weighted my tier list more heavily for higher tier matchups.

Example: I am sure that Samus does better against Pikachu, Kirby on Dreamland/Congo/Peaches than Ness, Link, and pretty confident that she does at least near as well as Luigi.

 

[Cobrevolution]

you have to take into account how well a character performs against the rest of the characters as well.

if samus vs pika is 25-75 and samus vs kirby 30-80, and ness vs pika is 15-85 and ness vs kirby is 12-88, but samus vs ness is 40-60, samus should not be higher than ness. samus is performing worse against a character who performs worse than she does at matchups she's "better" at. there's something skewed there, don't you think?

 

[Yobolight]

you have to take into account how well a character performs against the rest of the characters as well.

if samus vs pika is 25-75 and samus vs kirby 30-80, and ness vs pika is 15-85 and ness vs kirby is 12-88, but samus vs ness is 40-60, samus should not be higher than ness. samus is performing worse against a character who performs worse than she does at matchups she's "better" at. there's something skewed there, don't you think?

In the current Metagame, who is a Samus player more likely to face a high level Ness player or a high level Pikachu player?

You already know the answer.

It is therefore reasonable to weight higher tier matchups more heavily in the tier list calculation.

 

[Cobrevolution]

merely because matchups seldom happen does not mean you shouldn't consider them...then what, you change the tier list as certain matchups become more common/less common?

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

i actually think samus beats ness pretty badly on DL

 

[Cobrevolution]

ness' djc dair platform traps are more devastating than samus's. even with great di (aka mine) you still can get wrecked. i've traveled from one platform to the other. not to mention it's harder to mash z, time your di, and try tech so you can get an upb to escape - which needs to have good timing anyway otherwise you'll plummet down and ness will suffer much much less hitstun.

ness off the stage should equal a stock, especially with charge shot and bair and bombs. but ness can still z2d samus pretty easily, sometimes even with good di. however, ness has a little bit of trouble edgeguarding samus. and ness's uairs/dairs are a little bit of a pain in the ass to counter.

 

[The Star King]

merely because matchups seldom happen does not mean you shouldn't consider them...then what, you change the tier list as certain matchups become more common/less common?

Yes. How you do vs Pikachu is a lot more important than how you do against Luigi or something. This should be obvious.

I think Samus vs Ness is evenish or slight advantage Samus ;P

 

[asianaussie]

S: pika, kirby, falcon
A: fox, mario, yoshi
B: jiggs, DK
C: metroid
D: luigi/ness, link

**** dreamland

 

[Cobrevolution]

Yes. How you do vs Pikachu is a lot more important than how you do against Luigi or something. This should be obvious.

i disagree, because then you're using a timetable or a popularity chart to craft something that shouldn't be affected by either.
if a character goes 45-55 with the top four characters but goes, at best, 35-65 with the bottom six, they don't
deserve to be put higher than the bottom six because the bottom six are less common.

here's how i see this discussion (also keep in mind you can do this for any character):

1. measuring samus vs pika is important because 60% of matches will be vs a pika
2. measuring samus vs luigi is unimportant because 10% of matches will be vs a pika
3. samus's placement on a tier list is reflective of how well she performs against high tier, oft-used characters
4. samus's placement on a tier list is not reflective of how well she performs against low tier, seldom used characters

we are then greeted with a problem: if her placement is not reflective of how well she performs against low tiers, then we cannot place her above or beneath them.

why?

because the matchups are less commonly seen/less applicable to tournament play.

why is this wrong?

a tier list is supposed to define how "good" a character is, for want of a better term. that is, how well they perform against the rest of the cast. if you measure how well a character does against common mains instead of all the rest, then you wind up with wrong placements.

i think the game has been out long enough and the community has been active enough that the tier list as it stands is fairly spot on. if we see a surge in luigi mains and they start placing in the top numbers at tournaments, that won't suddenly mean luigi is better than we thought he was.
and then what? if luigi becomes a common main, only then is he important enough to measure his matchups with samus and link?

 

[O.o-RITH-o.O]

S - Pikachu/Kirby
A - Falcon
B - Mario/Fox/Yoshi
C - Jigg/Luigi
D - Ness/Samus/DK/Link

I think the banishment of hyrule created a even larger hole betwen the high tier and the low tier then existed before

 

[rjgbadger]

cobr all you ever do is complain about your main and her awful, bismal matchups. Samus is better than you allow her to be in your head, just get better and stop moaning about things. no one should be giving a damn about the tier list and groaning as much as you do like to, just play the damn game =D

samus still gets wrecked by the entire cast on dreamland...i don't trust any tier list that doesn't have her at the bottom.

by saying things like this, everyone reading should immediately know that your views are skewed and should be refused to be taken into consideration

 

[LiteralGrill]

How to Tier-List-Discuss, or A Rant:

My apologies, I did I lot of assuming that people would just take some things that usually go and apply them here. And you know what they say about assuming...

The OP has been edited for better clarity.


However, I'm not going into incredible detail on matchups and such as this was never meant to be THAT in depth, if people would like me to I'm willing but this was supposed to be a more casual voting experience and a format to discuss what having no Hyrule might mean for the meta game. I made sure to distance myself from the Backroom for that very reason, this isn't as professional of an organization, it's just a place to put up a vote and discuss.

 

[Cobrevolution]

cobr all you ever do is complain about your main and her awful, bismal matchups. Samus is better than you allow her to be in your head, just get better and stop moaning about things. no one should be giving a damn about the tier list and groaning as much as you do like to, just play the damn game =D

cobr_evolution said: ↑

samus still gets wrecked by the entire cast on dreamland...i don't trust any tier list that doesn't have her at the bottom.

by saying things like this, everyone reading should immediately know that your views are skewed and should be refused to be taken into consideration

start playing samus and then get back to me about where she should be
YOU DON'T KNOW PAIN until you fair someone - very clearly have the hitbox out and the flames are touching them and they haven't even started doing anything- and their move, no matter what it is, takes priority. from any character. and that is but one of many reasons.


hipstur you should try to refute my statement instead of just saying MY VIEWS ARE SKEWED

i provided an explanation as to how ness and samus BATTLE on dL. i could go on for the rest of the characters, but it should be apparent that any matchup will result in a loss for her. therefore, not having her last really makes no sense to me, when everyone else has better options vs her than she does them, irrespective of the stage.

what if i were to say falcon should be first in S tier on dL because he can combo pika pretty well? what about kirby, well, just get better and don't get hit by an utilt. simple as that. then you can get a standard combo near the edge and it'll be a stock. easy mode, right? just get better and don't take the bull**** into account, kirby vs falcon is only bad because you aren't that good. nothing to do with options vs each other or capabilities or efficiency of edgeguarding or combo ability.

eyeroll.

 

[The Star King]

a tier list is supposed to define how "good" a character is, for want of a better term. that is, how well they perform against the rest of the cast. if you measure how well a character does against common mains instead of all the rest, then you wind up with wrong placements.

I was under the impression that a tier list lists characters in order of viability in a tournament setting.

That's right, we've reached the inevitable disagreement about the definition of the tier list that happens in every tier list discussion! Hurray!

Anyway, under what I would think of as a tier list, the more common a character is, the more important that match-up is. Match-ups against the top 4 are the most important in this game.

And I'm not saying you should completely ignore low tier match-ups, I'm saying the high tier ones have more weight.

 

[Sedda]

You guys should just play Luigi and let your fears go

 

[Cobrevolution]

well that's where the schism occurs, then.

lists characters in order of viability in a tournament setting
vs
a character's inherent abilities as compared to everyone else

why do you feel the former is more important than the latter?

for my choice, i think every character is tournament viable, but you need a lot of skill to overcome the gaps between characters (obviously in addition to many other things). see: isai's link, nangoku's ness, jousuke's samus, etc. we have seen that every character is able to place quite high in tournaments. therefore, ranking them based on how well they can conceivably do in tournaments isn't a good idea, because there can be and have been cases of mislabels, as stated before.

if, however, you consider my viewpoint of a tier list, then players' performance doesn't come into effect (which i do not believe it should). as i said, it will consider each character's options vs everyone else's, recovery ability, combo ability, etc. basically everything that doesn't really rely on the players.

and i know you can argue, well, how you combo is player specific, how you recover etc. but that isn't what i mean. for example, we know link has a terrible recovery. a bthrow from at 30 from the edge will kill him, no matter who is playing him. pikachu, on the other hand, has the inherent ability to recover an incredible distance and can get back from nearly anywhere. therefore, pika's recovery is objectively better than link's, and he should be placed higher.

i'm sure you could check max horizontal distance and vertical distance and couple that with air speed and all that stuff. that's what i'm referring to as something fairly objective and that's what i think should be considered.

 

[Sangoku]

Facts/objectivity is nice when you're dealing with extremes. But when you're in between, you're in a grey area. Imagine the hypothetical case where pika (since you mentioned it) would go as far as he can, but would get edgeguarded with 100% success rate and thus, die everytime. Whereas link, with his terrible distance would die if too far, but could never be edgeguarded when close enough to recover. Then the death rate wouldn't be 100% and his recovery would therefore be better than pika's. That's obviously a degenerate case, but you understand very well that there are more variables than just distance. And the subtler the variables, the more confuse (ie less objective) it gets. How can you objectivise mindgames and baits?

Basically I agree with you that inherent abilities should be more important, but concretely it's a lot harder to figure out. So instead of coming up to wrong conclusions from lots of theories, it's easier to look at evidence with actual tournament settings (ie viability).

By the way, I've never understood a tier list to be the inherent capacity of a character (how would we even know that?), but rather the interaction between the characters assuming the players were at the maximal level of the current metagame.

 

[EggSelent]

I agree that removing Hyrule has the effect of making fewer characters tournament-viable. Without Hyrule, I think the tier list looks similar to this. I'd be really surprised if anyone won a real tournament without using an S or A tier character.

S Tier

A Tier

B Tier

C Tier

**** Tier

 

[MrMarbles]

i think that with hyrule banned, recovery becomes a more important factor to consider since the remaining stages are much smaller. I also feel that "tournament viability" should be the basis for the tier list. with that in mind this is how i see the tier list
pika
kirby
falcon
fox
mario
yoshi
jiggs
DK
ness
samus
luigi
link

 

[Cobrevolution]

i know there are more variables than merely distance, but it is one of the things that should be taken into consideration, in addition to options.

i understand what you're saying, sangoku, but pikachu also has many more options when recovering than link does. yes, pika can go absurdly far, but he also has the ability to only use one part of his upb, sweetspot the edge with it, or travel across all of dreamland and ledge cancel the other side, etc.

let's say link is just far enough he can't land on the stage and would have to grab the ledge. you can very easy ledge hop bair or nair or edgehog or throw a fireball or drop a bomb or etc, because link has only one option: getting to the ledge. pika, from the same position as link, could theoritically go down to avoid a nair, then up, or up to avoid a bair, then straight down, or straight across to get the invincibility frames to by pass a fair and then up, etc etc etc.

how would we even know that? (about inherent capacity)

i've considered the wiki a bit (despite its many shortcomings)

about pikachu:
high priority aerials, good edgeguarding ability, and superb recovery...very few weaknesses...solid attack power, good comboing ability, and arguably the best recovery in Super Smash Bros.

so if we use such things as priority of attacks (pika has many disjointed hitboxes that enable him to have so many situations of low risk high reward), good edgeguarding ability (with fsmash as being probably the best, and his recovery allowing him to venture off stage to complete and edgeguard, something some characters risk a stock by doing), and comboing ability (pika can combo essentially every character quite well; falcon, however, has problems comboing kirby).

i'm gonna run but i can explain more later if you'd like

 

[rjgbadger]

cobr if you took the time that you just spent ******** about samus

and you used it to play smash and LEARN how to deal with the things for which you complain

the time is objectively better spent, assuming you don't like sucking and you want to master your character

i mean, i keep a notebook mayb u should also

 

[Cobrevolution]

i have a list of things to work on that i also posted about, but the key to improvement is not constantly playing and practicing. you need time off to regroup, reconsider, rethink, time to watch videos and learn other techniques, notice patterns, etc. there are days i don't want to play, just discuss, or just play, and not discuss, or not play or discuss and just practice movement and technique, or do nothing related to smash at all.

 

[mixa]

the key to improvement is not constantly playing and practicing

That reminded me of this.

Anyway, the key to improvement is speculating who would win between two players who never fought each other.

 

[Cobrevolution]

i actually got it from vic wooten, who said the best way to learn a technique is to forget about it. still music-related. and vic is not as much of a **** as mayer, haha

 

[MrMarbles]

That reminded me of this.

Anyway, the key to improvement is speculating who would win between two players who never fought each other.

i feel like what he said actually really applies to smash which is kinda cool

 

[DMoogle]

i actually got it from vic wooten, who said the best way to learn a technique is to forget about it. still music-related. and vic is not as much of a **** as mayer, haha

The Wooten brothers are coming to my area in December. I'm planning on seeing them. So pumped!

 

[KeroKeroppi]

KeroKeroppi's take on all of this heeby jeeby:

Too lazy to write a post.
Too lazy to read other's posts.
The Koroshiyo is the best crew ever.
Tier lists are dumb.


BBOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM.
(Explosion noise no reference to sbf intended)

 

[th3kuzinator]

guess whos goin to apexxxxxx