Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Swagic]

What about invincible uair regrab from the ledge? It should pretty much always cover any of fox's options at or below the ledge, right? And knock him back far enough to just use bair. And if he tries to firefox over it, you could WF spike? (That last one is pure speculation)

 

[Mr.Cochise]

Took a break for almost two weeks with no practice at all. Manage to come back and get reverse ledgedashes consistently. Right now I'm just trying to get to being the best ganon in my region(which honestly won't be hard since all the ganons are basically retired in our region lmao).

 

[Swagic]

Actually, better idea than trying for that spike- ledgehop uair after the regrab.

 

[-ACE-]

I've been trying to figure out how to edgeguard Fox consistently but in some cases i feel like Ganon can only cover 2/3 choices in his recovery so there's always a chance to miss. =(

I wish there was a function on 20XX that repeatedly created edgeguarding scenarios for different matchups. Even one as simple as them recovering high/med/low and using different options would be great. I would practice edgeguarding all day lol.

The biggest thing is your jump positioning. You have to place yourself in the perfect position to be able to cover the options. You can then react to the illusion/phantasm while in mid air with uair or bair, and with fastfall (even dj with bair if you're fast, and jumping forward/toward center stage gives a few extra frames for the hitbox to come out) when necessary.

Reverse uair is still somehow a little bit underused. Dair covers sweetspot too, but has more L-cancel lag and requires you to be closer to the ledge than does reverse uair. Save stomp for covering dj sweetspots, as they are slightly harder to hit generally and dair reaches lower. Reverse uair all other sweetspot attempts. With proper jump positioning, you can bair on reaction when they don't sweetspot, and uair when they do. You have to focus on edgeguarding just as much as you would focus in a chaingrabbing situation. When reacting with uair to the sweetspot, respond to the earliest visual cue/sign of the side-b (before the *ting* nose). It's very possible, try it. If you miss a reverse uair you can often sh bair immediately and beat out LHDL unless they place the first laser really well.

Once you're effectively covering sweetspot, you can fake the reverse uair with an empty sh and just land and ftilt/jab their side-b. This is one way of getting them to do what you want them to do. Another way is to fulljump bair into falling uair for sweetspot to force them low.

Yet another way is to take ledge and ledgehop at the last second and low ftilt, ftilt, or jab. Most spacies will not side-b to ledge if you have ledge, although they sometimes like to call you out with up-b to ledge, in which case you have to react with roll. Taking ledge is also good if you know they can barely make it back onstage, as you can ledgehop grab them (even ledgedash grab), then chaingrab until they DI offstage (ftilt/aerial/dtilt/offstage uthrow trap/fthrow offstage). And there's also always INV ledgehop Tipman spike, but it often requires a read (at least you can immediately low ftilt after). Ledgehop uair regrab can bait an early decision out of them also, as can empty RLD.

In most scenarios, they have too many options to go for a read. Practice reacting and perfectly placing your jumps, and using fastfall when the situation calls for it. This works, it just takes practice.

 

[tm]

The biggest thing is your jump positioning. You have to place yourself in the perfect position to be able to cover the options. You can then react to the illusion/phantasm while in mid air with uair or bair, and with fastfall (even dj with bair if you're fast, and jumping forward/toward center stage gives a few extra frames for the hitbox to come out) when necessary.

Reverse uair is still somehow a little bit underused. Dair covers sweetspot too, but has more L-cancel lag and requires you to be closer to the ledge than does reverse uair. Save stomp for covering dj sweetspots, as they are slightly harder to hit generally and dair reaches lower. Reverse uair all other sweetspot attempts. With proper jump positioning, you can bair on reaction when they don't sweetspot, and uair when they do. You have to focus on edgeguarding just as much as you would focus in a chaingrabbing situation. When reacting with uair to the sweetspot, respond to the earliest visual cue/sign of the side-b (before the *ting* nose). It's very possible, try it. If you miss a reverse uair you can often sh bair immediately and beat out LHDL unless they place the first laser really well.

Great post. However, I'm doubtful that you have enough time to uair a sweetspotted sideB on reaction. Additionally, in order to hit the sweetspot, your jump timing has to be somewhat precise (each with a different fastfall timing), which changes based on the amount of time fox shine stalls before sideBing (he can delay by up to like 30+ frames)

Will give that a try though.

 

[-ACE-]

It's possible in the same way chaingrabbing spacies at 50% is, reaction-wise, but easier to perform. Been doing this for a while.

Edit: I guess I should've added that it doesn't work if he's close to stage. Has to be about max length to react with uair spike. But even without spike, if it's a non-sweetspot scenario, the thigh hitbox of uair works too and is less demanding reaction-wise.

 

[Swagic]

Really wishing we could have a Ganon conference of sorrs where we'd just have a weekend so all of us could grind the edgeguards and main techchase options. Also Ganon conference just sounds awesome

 

[-ACE-]

Gonna make another grab punish video after I get with spider_sense and test a few more things. Hooray for traps!

 

[Mr.Cochise]

Yo whens the 20gt shirts/wristbands

 

[-ACE-]

Yo whens the 20gt shirts/wristbands

I'm so down LOL. picture the front being Ganon's dair (during hitbox), and it says "Approach. I dair you." And 20GT on the back. Possibly small 20GT's on the sleeves. I'd seriously rock it.

Edit: or possibly 20GT on the front and the image on the back.

 

[-ACE-]

Also another easy way to react to sweetspot vs non-sweetspot is to uair a tad preemptively to cover non-sweetspot (instead of bair-- requires good spacing), and simply fastfall if they do sweetspot.

 

[Mr.Cochise]

I'm so down LOL. picture the front being Ganon's dair (during hitbox), and it says "Approach. I dair you." And 20GT on the back. Possibly small 20GT's on the sleeves. I'd seriously rock it.

Edit: or possibly 20GT on the front and the image on the back.

https://teespring.com/20gx#pid=2&cid=2397&sid=front for reference this is what 20gx has just so we don't have a similar design. I'm down for 20gt being on the front in a small design on the front. Then on the back I have no idea.

 

[-ACE-]

https://teespring.com/20gx#pid=2&cid=2397&sid=front for reference this is what 20gx has just so we don't have a similar design. I'm down for 20gt being on the front in a small design on the front. Then on the back I have no idea.

Yo that ain't bad but can be easily outdone imo.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Those TGL videos were sick. But the commentary was so ass. Like literally some of the worst commentary I've ever heard in smash. Especially in Tipman's set vs. Drugged Fox. That nerdy black kid who sounded like Steve Urkel was just too much.

 

[-ACE-]

Those TGL videos were sick. But the commentary was so ***. Like literally some of the worst commentary I've ever heard in smash. Especially in Tipman's set vs. Drugged Fox. That nerdy black kid who sounded like Steve Urkel was just too much.

Me and Jason desperately need to get on the Mic.

 

[SwiftNinjaBlackMan]

so 2 weeks ago i played hax in pools and took him down to last stock twice but i got too greedy and ended up offstage and hax grabbed ledge and started B-air'ing me whenever i would wiz foot to make it back.... is there a way to get around the kicks or am i dead as soon as he starts doing that

 

[-ACE-]

so 2 weeks ago i played hax in pools and took him down to last stock twice but i got too greedy and ended up offstage and hax grabbed ledge and started B-air'ing me whenever i would wiz foot to make it back.... is there a way to get around the kicks or am i dead as soon as he starts doing that

The only thing you can really do is jump up/backwards before you down-b to perfectly space it so that he fully commits to hitting you but the option isn't there. You have to be more familiar with his options in that moment than he is. Very hard.

 

[Divinokage]

I wish there was a function on 20XX that repeatedly created edgeguarding scenarios for different matchups. Even one as simple as them recovering high/med/low and using different options would be great. I would practice edgeguarding all day lol.

The biggest thing is your jump positioning. You have to place yourself in the perfect position to be able to cover the options. You can then react to the illusion/phantasm while in mid air with uair or bair, and with fastfall (even dj with bair if you're fast, and jumping forward/toward center stage gives a few extra frames for the hitbox to come out) when necessary.

Reverse uair is still somehow a little bit underused. Dair covers sweetspot too, but has more L-cancel lag and requires you to be closer to the ledge than does reverse uair. Save stomp for covering dj sweetspots, as they are slightly harder to hit generally and dair reaches lower. Reverse uair all other sweetspot attempts. With proper jump positioning, you can bair on reaction when they don't sweetspot, and uair when they do. You have to focus on edgeguarding just as much as you would focus in a chaingrabbing situation. When reacting with uair to the sweetspot, respond to the earliest visual cue/sign of the side-b (before the *ting* nose). It's very possible, try it. If you miss a reverse uair you can often sh bair immediately and beat out LHDL unless they place the first laser really well.

Once you're effectively covering sweetspot, you can fake the reverse uair with an empty sh and just land and ftilt/jab their side-b. This is one way of getting them to do what you want them to do. Another way is to fulljump bair into falling uair for sweetspot to force them low.

Yet another way is to take ledge and ledgehop at the last second and low ftilt, ftilt, or jab. Most spacies will not side-b to ledge if you have ledge, although they sometimes like to call you out with up-b to ledge, in which case you have to react with roll. Taking ledge is also good if you know they can barely make it back onstage, as you can ledgehop grab them (even ledgedash grab), then chaingrab until they DI offstage (ftilt/aerial/dtilt/offstage uthrow trap/fthrow offstage). And there's also always INV ledgehop Tipman spike, but it often requires a read (at least you can immediately low ftilt after). Ledgehop uair regrab can bait an early decision out of them also, as can empty RLD.

In most scenarios, they have too many options to go for a read. Practice reacting and perfectly placing your jumps, and using fastfall when the situation calls for it. This works, it just takes practice.

The only problem i have with this is that reverse uair or dair doesnt cover the shorten because theyll be able to grab the ledge really far away, it's like if their hurtbox isnt even on the ledge until he's invincible.

 

[Bwmat]

Yeah, that shorten ruins everything

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Shorten really does ruin everything. I love ganon's jab, but damn if he only had a double jab like marth with that crazy disjoint. I wonder if jab cancelling can somehow cover it...

 

[-ACE-]

The only problem i have with this is that reverse uair or dair doesnt cover the shorten because theyll be able to grab the ledge really far away, it's like if their hurtbox isnt even on the ledge until he's invincible.

True, that **** is BS. Maybe we need to use more options from ledge where applicable, like ledgehop uair regrab ledge, RLD to offstage bair/uair regrab ledge, ledgehop uair onstage to immediate wd back to ledge, etc. So many spacies are so good at the shortened nowadays lol FU.CK

 

[Swagic]

I'm telling you guys, uair regrab. If you don't hit them, you *should* still regrab because the stall at the ledge.

 

[-ACE-]

I'm telling you guys, uair regrab. If you don't hit them, you *should* still regrab because the stall at the ledge.

It's good but situational. The placement of the hitboxes isn't ideal although they are INV, and it's not a fully INV stall.

PseudoTurtle if only Ganon's dtilt reached as low as marth's LOL

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

so i guess i'm officially ranked #2 in my new home after the most recent ELO rankings were posted. gonna try my best to improve as much as possible but without traveling it's gonna be a *****.

when i first moved here, there were only 3 ganondorfs in the state that made themselves known. there are 7 now and i've interacted with all of them on many occasions at this point. looking forward to trying to train them all up.

oh and if you guys wanna show some support, i'm planning on streaming all day from sunrise to sundown on friday. netplay ranked matches and local training. twitch.tv/eikelmann

anyone got any recent matches i could watch?

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Preferred beers of the G-mains? -ACE- Omw now bro. Should be there in 20 min.

i'm personally offended that you didn't come to me about beer related questions btw

 

[-ACE-]

anyone got any recent matches i could watch?

This one was hype

https://youtu.be/XnpFByMu6xw

 

[Coastward]

i wish i had 7 active ganons in my region lmao

 

[-ACE-]

dthrow dtilt trap
https://youtu.be/lEoqTShhJ4A

Notes:

-falcon will land on BF plats with DI away starting at 59% (87% on DL), so always be ready for the techchase

-this is best used as a mixup when someone gets used to you ftilt'ing them offstage

-dthrow to dtilt works at much lower percents than these, but these are what leads into a kill, and these percents do not require a true pivot/smash turn (simply turnaround dtilt)

-part of the reason this is good, is how good INV ledgehop grab is against ppl that get too close while you're on ledge

-I need to test, but at the higher ranges of this trap, teching on the plat will not be an option for them after survival DI'ing dtilt (your fair will hit first)

 

[SwiftNinjaBlackMan]

i love hitting d throw chaingrabs into wiz foot.. that **** is so ****ing cool

 

[-ACE-]

i love hitting d throw chaingrabs into wiz foot.. that **** is so ****ing cool

Yeah but DI behind basically ruins that.

 

[Waldoring]

dthrow dtilt trap
https://youtu.be/lEoqTShhJ4A

At the point where turnaround dtilt combos, runoff fair works. Certainly not as good as getting the dtilt->fair, but it sets up for a better edgeguard than just the dtilt if they di away.

 

[-ACE-]

At the point where turnaround dtilt combos, runoff fair works. Certainly not as good as getting the dtilt->fair, but it sets up for a better edgeguard than just the dtilt if they di away.

Yeah true, but on DI behind it'll be hard getting the turnaround dtilt that quickly at that percent. At the percent ranges I stated, by the time you dtilt him he's getting popped up into the air a good bit, so you'll be jumping and fair'ing (edit: or techchasing lol, via NIL or aerial).

 

[spider_sense]

Been labbing it up for the last few hours while I wait to go to work, but yeah basically I've been messing with low percent combos into pivot jabs, I think I might use pivot jabs a bit more on platforms, or just do empty pivots in general to sort of bait the opponent to do a wake up attack out of reaction. I think it might be better than smash turning in certain instances too since you'll get a bit more ground to work with and you're not hammering down at your stick to make the turn. All it would take is a flick and you could still have stage control.

SwiftNinjaBlackMan I'm feeling the wizards kick into foot in ass too. I might start using that more in my mixup,

-ACE- hmu this friday bro. we gpt some vods to make.

 

[Bwmat]

Some vids
Me vs a sheik. Dunno how I lost second game, I blame fod, but I chickened out and went falcon, gg: http://www.twitch.tv/vanstreetbattle/v/60864041?sr=a

Doubles (we do some double ganon, and some ganon/dk lol) @ 15:35, 34:19 http://www.twitch.tv/vanstreetbattle/v/60854456?sr=a

 

[Linguini]

I've found a way to beat the shorten if they spam it like druggedfox was doing this last weekend. You know they're going to be getting semi-close to the stage having utilized their double jumps before side bing.

Usually this is done by spacies slightly above the ledge. So once they're off, if you see their double jump will get them close enough, just throw out a bair/uair. You can either go for the risk of getting hit by a non-shorten and jump off the level or stay on stage and throw out your bair/uair a good bit past the ledge but not to far above it. This is safer, they might make it back if they choose to up b and not shorten; but you won't be getting side-b'd into upair'd by a fox lol

Idk gotta test more **** out. Oh and wd oos is godlike against falcon and soacies

 

[Divinokage]

True, that **** is BS. Maybe we need to use more options from ledge where applicable, like ledgehop uair regrab ledge, RLD to offstage bair/uair regrab ledge, ledgehop uair onstage to immediate wd back to ledge, etc. So many spacies are so good at the shortened nowadays lol FU.CK

Hehe ya which is why I thought usually Ganon can only cover 2/3 options while a Fox is recovering so I talked to N0ne about edgeguarding Fox yesterday. The option coverage that we need to do is either a combination of Fair/Bair or reverse uair into a jab/low angle ftilt (Also with pivot if you are using a backward aerial) depending on how they are trying to recover. And hell if the angle is right you can probably rejump off stage for a glory kill using dair or another reverse uair.

I also saw where you can trick a Fox going for a sweetspot using an aerial ledge cancel to grab the ledge. Its super fast and will cover the shorten too.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah I've used moonwalk into ledge cancelled dair before. Easy to set up on BF too, just drop through the outermost side of lower plat and hold out as you aerial. Just a pain in the ass to set it up sometimes.

L Linguini your oos game is on its way to ****ing perfection with the recent addition of more frequent wd oos and shield drops. Lol. 20GT

 

[-ACE-]

Yo btw, happy 4/20 Ganons! Although I won't be participating this year LOL. Enjoy the green greens counterpick.

 

[Divinokage]

You know Im getting lit AF. lol

 

[Swagic]

Imagine the tournaments if Green Greens was legal... Everyone would be playing Ganon. We all know its probably his best counterpick.