Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Divinokage]

Divinokage I mean after a dthrow. Those neutral game scenarios are so legit tho

Ya thats what I meant is if I get a grab and downthrow to jab.. he may SDI inside at low % to avoid a teching scenario so in this case I have to switch to a double jab or jab to tilt because I expect a defensive option here. If he has to fall down, usually instead Id react to the tech to at least corner him. But sometimes I know he has pressed tech too early or too late, i listen to if he clicked his controller in time or not. =P

 

[Divinokage]

Also he knows my pattern of downthrow jab to grab so this is where I need to switch to something else to change my timing on what he's looking for. Of course it can work depending on where he DIed and if hes still in stun but thats something you gotta recognize instantly if not you whiff the grab then you're ****ed =P

 

[Diosama]

What would be the best choice right when you hear the Ding from Fox/Falco's side b?

I like ftilt and dtilt the best.

Jab is also good if they can slighty above and don't sweetspot.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Why jab out of dthrow at low percents if it's not even going to knock down? That seems like a wasted tech chase opportunity to me.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Why jab out of dthrow at low percents if it's not even going to knock down? That seems like a wasted tech chase opportunity to me.

cuz regreb

 

[X WaNtEd X]

cuz regreb

Yeah but tech chase offers a higher reward. Regrab is like a 50/50. Best case scenario you get the regrab and then successfully tech chase. That's more optimal than normal tech chase, but not enough to warrant the risk you won't get that regrab imo.

 

[Divinokage]

Yeah but tech chase offers a higher reward. Regrab is like a 50/50. Best case scenario you get the regrab and then successfully tech chase. That's more optimal than normal tech chase, but not enough to warrant the risk you won't get that regrab imo.

They can jump out at low %.

 

[-ACE-]

If you're pretty sure you surprised him when you grabbed him and you buffer dthrow it's like "guaranteed" damage. And it's important damage, slowly killing his cc ability and creating knockdown potential for Ganon. The techchase doesn't guarantee this damage, and even side-b and dsmash can be directly punished, where missing the regrab won't. But I understand your point. There's just a lot to it.

 

[spider_sense]

I'd honestly would rather go for the "guaranteed" setup; rather commit to alot of guesswork that comes with tech chasing.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

It's all about what's guaranteed and reacting instead of reading. The less you need to read the better (unless you're reading smashboards )

 

[-ACE-]

The first time the jab to regrab didn't work I'd be ready for techroll away. But at high level anything is possible.

 

[Divinokage]

It's all about what's guaranteed and reacting instead of reading. The less you need to read the better (unless you're reading smashboards )

If only Smash was that simple huh.. lol

 

[SwiftNinjaBlackMan]

yooooooooooo im stealing that

 

[PseudoTurtle]

LOL I can't tell if this is a troll or for real. Either way WE IN THERE

 

[-ACE-]

LOL I can't tell if this is a troll or for real. Either way WE IN THERE

He's got to be for real lol

 

[Divinokage]

LOL I can't tell if this is a troll or for real. Either way WE IN THERE

Probably real, you gotta have more confidence in your movement.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

yooooooooooo im stealing that

Bro check out G. Vice's combo vid devour. Even better application of off stage WF IMO

 

[-ACE-]

Man I scrubbed it up tonight. Bodied 2 sheiks and a fox, but lost to the author's Falco again and then to a fox. drinking beer makes you think you can easily shieldgrab perfect spacey approaches rofl

 

[X WaNtEd X]

They can jump out at low %.

What percents can they jump out of dthrow?

 

[Swagic]

Swagic, tell him where all the sheik posts are at. LOL jk

Ground game is big. Get a read on ftilt, jab, and dash attack habits because those land you easy grabs. Abuse uair when he jumps or takes a plat. Bair too. AC bair is a good bait, so is wL away.

Good sheiks will sometimes fair the top half of your shield to bait a grab so they can just dd grab you. sh dair OoS bodies this if you read it.

What, am I the unofficial archivist? (Well... I have read almost every post on this board now...) Or is this me complaining about that matchup every three posts?

F. Stein
Sheik: cg, see Magus stickied thread (although that really just says it should be easy as **** compared to spacies), edgeguard, see Ace's stickied thread (ledgehog, normal getup, free grab to cg to another edgeguard to bair to dead sheik), neutral game, pray she makes a mistake and ends up higher than you (but in all seriousness, that mu doesn't get any discussion except "**** sheik").

 

[-ACE-]

What percents can they jump out of dthrow?

He means after they SDI the jab up and ASDI/DI up and away I'd assume, as they wait out their tumble.

Swagic I played a heavy chaingrabbing sheik tonight. I lost game 2 getting cg'd bad 3 of the 4 stocks. Game 3 I focused on my DI and eventually survived. Try holding slight behind and jumping out of their cg. I also cg'd the **** out of him right back, lol. Upper 80s to aerial every time, plus generic sheik edgeguard. He did fool me twice when I took ledge and did regular stand-up, as she landed behind me and I ledgehop grabbed instead of pivot grab.

 

[Swagic]

He means after they SDI the jab up and ASDI/DI up and away I'd assume, as they wait out their tumble.

Swagic I played a heavy chaingrabbing sheik tonight. I lost game 2 getting cg'd bad 3 of the 4 stocks. Game 3 I focused on my DI and eventually survived. Try holding slight behind and jumping out of their cg. I also cg'd the **** out of him right back, lol. Upper 80s to aerial every time, plus generic sheik edgeguard. He did fool me twice when I took ledge and did regular stand-up, as she landed behind me and I ledgehop grabbed instead of pivot grab.

I knew you could jump out, I just wasn't sure what the DI was. They don't get the cg until about 15% (I don't remember the exact number). I tried lurking the Sheik page to get the inside scoop of what they're trying.

 

[-ACE-]

Sheik can regrab DI away at 8% I think. 0-7 safe.

Edit: **** the sheik boards. Bunch of scrubs

 

[Swagic]

Sheik can regrab DI away at 8% I think. 0-7 safe.

Gotcha. Also, KK was saying something about how none of them know how to handle slightly DI on the cg.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Interesting argument that building percent to get past cc makes it worthwhile. I'm torn now. I want to find a way to discern when I should be going for that guaranteed percent and when I should be tech chasing at the lower percents. Right now, I think it's more about playing the player. But being the typical EC player that I am, I just want to figure out how to beat the game on this lol.

One thing I've been thinking about is covering every tech option near the ledge and on platforms. Bair to cover tech in place and no tech. Grab to cover tech toward center stage. And what I'm thinking to cover tech toward ledge is to react to the rolling animation with something.

 

[-ACE-]

Part of the reason I use side-b at that percent is getting that crucial extra damage (and if you guess wrong you can't get punished badly as he rolled the opposite direction of your side-b). To me it's worth trying it once on a player you haven't played, just to see if he knows how to punish it.

I definitely have a EC mentality as well, trying to abuse the game to make my opponent's life a living Hell; when at times it would be better for me to try to get into my opponent's head more. Tipman is so good at that. You think he's going to lose and then he gets his opponent on tilt somehow and clutches it out lol.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

You know, I'd rather go for a tech-chase read towards center stage and be wrong, than to go for a tech-chase read towards the edge and be wrong. In the former scenario, even if you're wrong you will still have stage control over your opponent, and Ganon needs that more than most characters, especially considering how slow he is.

Most of the time people are going to tech towards the middle of the stage out of fear. Rarely do you actually condition people to tech to the edge of all things, cause if they are wrong on that one time they tech toward the ledge, they pretty much die. It's a mental factor that definitely comes into play.

 

[-ACE-]

RedmanSSBM that imo is a key component of the option-select mentality all Ganons should adopt. Down-b is less risky towards center stage, as is side-b, and with side-b, typical DI leads to your follow up sending them offstage.

And with grab punishes especially. It's tough to have a completely different plan for DI away vs DI behind when you uthrow/dthrow a spacey at mid%, and execute either plan perfectly, with such little time to react. But that's what we should strive for.

 

[spider_sense]

RedmanSSBM that imo is a key component of the option-select mentality all Ganons should adopt. Down-b is less risky towards center stage, as is side-b, and with side-b, typical DI leads to your follow up sending them offstage.

And with grab punishes especially. It's tough to have a completely different plan for DI away vs DI behind when you dthrow a spacey at mid%, and execute either plan perfectly, with such little time to react. But that's what we should strive for.

I left my controller at your place.

 

[-ACE-]

I left my controller at your place.

Knowing you, if you leave now you'll have it in roughly 4 hours.


LOL come over

 

[Swagic]

Sometimes I wish I could hear what commentators on stream are saying so I can prove they know nothing about Ganon.

 

[F. Stein]

lol I know that feeling. My commentators never know anything about Ganon.

 

[Swagic]

"It's too bad Ganon has no options on the ledge, no, wait, he just got the kill? What happened?" Enough of that crap...

 

[X WaNtEd X]

The commentators in my region will give credit to Ganon's ledge options fortunately.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

So I went to a tournament over the weekend. Did...kind of ****ty toward the end, losing to a random doc player. I thought I was getting better at that MU, but I guess I'm not good enough at it to play unless I'm fully alert. I need to stop going out the night before tournaments. Playing on little sleep and hungover just destroys your mental stamina. I always think I can just superman it, but it never works out lol. I just need to work on my stamina in general. I never play outside of tournament for more than 3 or 4 hours, so whenever I exceed that I feel so drained that I can't think straight. The solution is to play more Melee and practice keeping up my play over long periods of time. I need a hyperbolic time chamber or something. That or more long smash fests.

But I did manage to play well in pools and I beat the fox player that beat me in a video PseudoTurtle critiqued a few months ago. So Ill have footage of that as soon as that gets uploaded. My edgeguarding is getting better in that matchup, but I think I still suck at neutral. And my tech chasing/grab game need a lot more work too.

I also played a Sheik on stream in my pool that's decent. He's one of the top 3 players at UMass Amherst, which was the best school in NE in TMG this last season. Lost 2-0 with two one stocks. I had a really cool 0 to death and some nasty combos. But ultimately, I lost because I wasn't perfect at the chaingrab and didn't play the best neutral game.

Talked with Dudutsai after the tournament at a post-tournament party and he had good things to say about his experiences playing Joe and tm. He also told me about a time he got warlock punched by Kage at a mass madness or something. Apparently, warlock punch used to actually work sometimes back in the day. Idk if that's true, maybe it was just a north east thing.

 

[Bwmat]

Lol I don't think wp has ever 'worked' outside of rest whiff, shield break, edge guard, or major **** up on the opponents side.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Yeah I think he was only talking about edgeguards.

 

[Swagic]

It works on whiffed Samus grab (no pullback), whiffed Link grab (requires read) and ledgehop counter (requires read (unless Marth's fastest move is like 8 frames))

 

[-ACE-]

It's probably possible to combo teeter-cancelled dair (no DI) into WP on fastfallers around 57-59% or so on the innermost side of lower plat on YS, similar to dair to utilt. LOL. If only it was more feasible/practical. Someone would be instant 7th God of melee confirmed.

http://youtu.be/ORueALHUjTQ?t=5m11s

 

[Oldiz]

Eikelmann did it vs a recovering sheik, he feinted towards ledge but dj wp onstage, ****'s legit.