Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

@Lock Robster yeah an actual cc grab is a totally different situation. But even then I like to just crouch and return to neutral and grab quickly since the method also works with jab/anything.

^^ I also do this for an ASDI (or CC) jab, or just claw c-down and spam A lol (if you can't crouch- after whiffing an attack). Or just tilt the stick for an ASDI low ftilt.

 

[Praxis]

D DCW I got the knockback and hitbox info from the new SmashPad app (I strongly recommend it, by the way). After some use, though, I have noticed some of the information is off a little bit, and I think the Nair sweetspot is one of those things. That said, the scaling knockback of nair is correct. I've gotten reliable kills (as in every single time) on anyone upwards of about 115% (except Sheik... **** Sheik).

Developer of SmashPad here.
Let me know what data is incorrect. A lot of it is sourced from SuperDoodleMan's data that was compiled by hand, so it's possible a couple things are wrong. (I've already found a couple typos, like 114% on Marth's fsmash sourspot instead of 14%. Fixing in next update.)

 

[Swagic]

Developer of SmashPad here.
Let me know what data is incorrect. A lot of it is sourced from SuperDoodleMan's data that was compiled by hand, so it's possible a couple things are wrong. (I've already found a couple typos, like 114% on Marth's fsmash sourspot instead of 14%. Fixing in next update.)

Oh, perfect. Thank you. Well, to my knowledge, I've only found two problems. 1. Samus's weight in melee, listed as 84, should be 110 and 2. Ganon's nair doesn't have a sweetspot (or, at least, I haven't been able to replicate it in any amount of labbing). Also, melee Ganon doesn't have an animation for his dash attack. That's about all I've found so far. LOVE the app though, it's already helping me.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

https://youtu.be/hXFMWLy6u0A

Hey, a few things you should do more of. Not really matchup specific, more fundamental ganon tech that I'd advise incorporating more into your play.

Crouch cancel. He got you a lot with jab --> grab and nair approaches that led to you taking a lot of damage at low %. You can CC all of these things. CC his jab into grab or a jab of your own. Both viable, both really good. I didn't see a lot of grabs from you, and seeing as they auto combo into bair and fair, grabs are obviously pretty important here.

Empty hop into grab. You hit his shield a lot. Optimally, you never want to hit your opponent's shield unless it's with well spaced bair / fair / ftilt, as those are (pretty much ganon's only) legit forms of pressure. Rewatch the set and see which situations you hit his shield. Condition yourself to recognize these situations and grab / waveland away ftilt instead. Tomahawk grabs win sets. I played a lot of friendlies with professor pro at kings of the north and I realized that the only time I could feasibly gain the advantage over him was when I would get grabs. Tomahawks worked on him as well, meaning they aren't just a mid-level gimmick.

Up air beats pill spam when he's close to you. Wavedash in also beats it, though that can put you in a bit more risky of a situation. Read the situation and stop that dude from spamming unsafe pills. Ganon's already a tank, he doesn't need any more viatmins.

Not too bad overall, some questionable edge guards and recovery options, but keep at it and I could definitely see you scraping a win in the near future.

 

[Swagic]

Ganon's already a tank, he doesn't need any more viatmins.

Quote of the day

 

[Praxis]

Oh, perfect. Thank you. Well, to my knowledge, I've only found two problems. 1. Samus's weight in melee, listed as 84, should be 110 and 2. Ganon's nair doesn't have a sweetspot (or, at least, I haven't been able to replicate it in any amount of labbing). Also, melee Ganon doesn't have an animation for his dash attack. That's about all I've found so far. LOVE the app though, it's already helping me.

The "sweetspot" damage is if both hitboxes connect, sourspot is if only one connects. Hence the 24% max, 12% weak.

I just went and fixed all the others (Samus weight, Ganondorf dash attack). Apparently I had "Dash Attack" in one place but "DashAttack" in another, so it couldn't find the video Also, I noticed that I ended up giving Ganondorf's nair the Melee 1.0 frame data, I just changed it to 1.2 NTSC.

Will be in the next update

 

[Swagic]

The "sweetspot" damage is if both hitboxes connect, sourspot is if only one connects. Hence the 24% max, 12% weak.

I just went and fixed all the others (Samus weight, Ganondorf dash attack). Apparently I had "Dash Attack" in one place but "DashAttack" in another, so it couldn't find the video Also, I noticed that I ended up giving Ganondorf's nair the Melee 1.0 frame data, I just changed it to 1.2 NTSC.

Will be in the next update

Ooooohhhhh that makes MUCH more sense now. Thanks, Praxis.

 

[DCW]

The "sweetspot" damage is if both hitboxes connect, sourspot is if only one connects. Hence the 24% max, 12% weak.

I just went and fixed all the others (Samus weight, Ganondorf dash attack). Apparently I had "Dash Attack" in one place but "DashAttack" in another, so it couldn't find the video Also, I noticed that I ended up giving Ganondorf's nair the Melee 1.0 frame data, I just changed it to 1.2 NTSC.

Will be in the next update

Praxis I'm curious--are the knockback growth and base knockback for the second hit of Ganon's nair the same for 1.0 and 1.02? I ask because the knockback formula seems to be giving me weird results when I use the 1.0 data. Also, where can I find the raw 1.02 NTSC hitbox/knockback data? I have the 1.0 data thanks to Toomai's Hitbox Collection, but I couldn't find any updates for 1.02. Thanks!

 

[RedmanSSBM]

You know, the only thing I see about nair having a slight advantage over uair in specific situations is that nair has two hits that are out in front of Ganon, while upair only has that one hit in front of him that scoops upward, but after it reaches that top point, it's not gonna hit anyone in front of you anymore (unless you're moving forward a lot and they get hit by your legs swinging downward, but that's pretty rare to happen).

Actually, this gets me thinking... let me run some tests.

Okay so I found some interesting stuff about the difference between using nair and upair when you short hop and doing it in neutral:

• SH instant UPAIR auto-canceled: 18-20 frames of vulnerability
• SH instant NAIR with l-cancel: 14 frames of vulnerability
• SH instant NAIR auto-canceled: 9 frames of vulnerability

I tested both doing the aerial frame 1 of being the the air and delaying by 1 frame. If you take the above values and -1 from each one, then you get the frames if you were to do it frame perfectly, except for the auto-canceled nair, which is going to be 9 frames no matter what. For the first two tests that I did, Ganon fast falls on frame 17, and that is the soonest that he can fast fall. For the last test, I made Ganon fast fall on Frame 20, and that is the earliest you can fast fall the nair and have it auto-cancel. Also by "vulnerability" I am talking about the frame that you are actionable on the ground after landing, which is including the 5 frames of lag that Ganon has whenever he lands on the ground without having to l-cancel or airdodge.

So according to this data, it looks as though if you nair and FF at the perfect time, you will come down with the stronger second hit of nair that knocks down at 0%, and it will also hit a standing Fox, but you have to be pretty much perfect, with like 1 frame of leniency. Keep in mind that you have to be pretty much touching Fox with your thigh/butt when you nair, as the tips of Ganon's toes won't be able to hit Fox unless you fast fall the nair earlier, but then you will have to l-cancel.

I ran a quick test to see what Ganon can do after this auto-canceled second hit nair hits Fox, and since it knocks down at 0%, if they don't tech it than it's a quick fair/dair followup right afterwards.

After doing some of these tests, I feel like nair actually could be a bit more useful in neutral in terms of countering opponents that aren't jumping. This is interesting cause we tend to use instant upair to scoop people off the ground, but typically that's such a tight window that it is often hard to hit, and if you miss you're way open for punishment. But with this auto-canceled nair method, it can cover Ganon a little bit more lower than upair and in front of him, though the move is a bit delayed, as there are 12 frames in between the first hit ending and the second hit starting. Also keep in mind that both the first hit of nair and upair are very close in terms of how high off the ground they can hit, but with upair being a frame faster and if you're frame perfect, you'll hit a standing Fox with upair, but not nair. Also upair knocks down at 13% on Fox, while first hit of nair knocks down Fox at 17%.

So here's how I'm going to sum up the difference between these two moves in terms of using them practically:

• Upair: Good move for hitting people coming at you from the air. Ganon's fastest and most reliable anti-air move. This move should absolutely be used when your opponent is above you, or is coming at you from an upward diagonal angle. It's got great startup, but the ending lag makes this move a little risky if you miss with it.
• Nair: Decent move for hitting people that are on the ground more-so that using it as anti-air. The startup of nair isn't too great, but it's the ending lag of nair that actually does better than upair, since there is that second hitbox in front of Ganon to cover him on the way down. The only real downside I see to using this is that the frames on nair are still pretty booty so you'll have to time it really closely, and there's the 12 frames in between the first and the second hit.

So yeah guys, **** around with nair some more in neutral and probably even out of shield as well. Might not be the most useful thing at high percents, but I feel like it's pretty useful at lower percents.

 

[-ACE-]

I wonder what the timing is for the ff for shield drop nair on DL64 being AC'd.

Jason let's play soon lol

I still think uair is best against grounded opponents in most cases. Speed, knockback (first hit), and range is on your side.

 

[Swagic]

You know, the only thing I see about nair having a slight advantage over uair in specific situations is that nair has two hits that are out in front of Ganon, while upair only has that one hit in front of him that scoops upward, but after it reaches that top point, it's not gonna hit anyone in front of you anymore (unless you're moving forward a lot and they get hit by your legs swinging downward, but that's pretty rare to happen).

Actually, this gets me thinking... let me run some tests.

Okay so I found some interesting stuff about the difference between using nair and upair when you short hop and doing it in neutral:

• SH instant UPAIR auto-canceled: 18-20 frames of vulnerability
• SH instant NAIR with l-cancel: 14 frames of vulnerability
• SH instant NAIR auto-canceled: 9 frames of vulnerability

I tested both doing the aerial frame 1 of being the the air and delaying by 1 frame. If you take the above values and -1 from each one, then you get the frames if you were to do it frame perfectly, except for the auto-canceled nair, which is going to be 9 frames no matter what. For the first two tests that I did, Ganon fast falls on frame 17, and that is the soonest that he can fast fall. For the last test, I made Ganon fast fall on Frame 20, and that is the earliest you can fast fall the nair and have it auto-cancel. Also by "vulnerability" I am talking about the frame that you are actionable on the ground after landing, which is including the 5 frames of lag that Ganon has whenever he lands on the ground without having to l-cancel or airdodge.

So according to this data, it looks as though if you nair and FF at the perfect time, you will come down with the stronger second hit of nair that knocks down at 0%, and it will also hit a standing Fox, but you have to be pretty much perfect, with like 1 frame of leniency. Keep in mind that you have to be pretty much touching Fox with your thigh/butt when you nair, as the tips of Ganon's toes won't be able to hit Fox unless you fast fall the nair earlier, but then you will have to l-cancel.

I ran a quick test to see what Ganon can do after this auto-canceled second hit nair hits Fox, and since it knocks down at 0%, if they don't tech it than it's a quick fair/dair followup right afterwards.

After doing some of these tests, I feel like nair actually could be a bit more useful in neutral in terms of countering opponents that aren't jumping. This is interesting cause we tend to use instant upair to scoop people off the ground, but typically that's such a tight window that it is often hard to hit, and if you miss you're way open for punishment. But with this auto-canceled nair method, it can cover Ganon a little bit more lower than upair and in front of him, though the move is a bit delayed, as there are 12 frames in between the first hit ending and the second hit starting. Also keep in mind that both the first hit of nair and upair are very close in terms of how high off the ground they can hit, but with upair being a frame faster and if you're frame perfect, you'll hit a standing Fox with upair, but not nair. Also upair knocks down at 13% on Fox, while first hit of nair knocks down Fox at 17%.

So here's how I'm going to sum up the difference between these two moves in terms of using them practically:

• Upair: Good move for hitting people coming at you from the air. Ganon's fastest and most reliable anti-air move. This move should absolutely be used when your opponent is above you, or is coming at you from an upward diagonal angle. It's got great startup, but the ending lag makes this move a little risky if you miss with it.
• Nair: Decent move for hitting people that are on the ground more-so that using it as anti-air. The startup of nair isn't too great, but it's the ending lag of nair that actually does better than upair, since there is that second hitbox in front of Ganon to cover him on the way down. The only real downside I see to using this is that the frames on nair are still pretty booty so you'll have to time it really closely, and there's the 12 frames in between the first and the second hit.

So yeah guys, **** around with nair some more in neutral and probably even out of shield as well. Might not be the most useful thing at high percents, but I feel like it's pretty useful at lower percents.

When I figured that out, I tried it in a new place- a mixup for approachig a DD. Condition them to expect the dair, so they dash back out of range and punish. Then you can either waveland grab or jump past and ff nair. Both work to scare the crap out of people.

NOTE: I don't advocate actually using dair to attack a DD. Just saying I've been testing it against a scrubby fox and it's been working.

 

[SwiftNinjaBlackMan]

http://imgur.com/DXdREvG thoughts?

 

[DCW]

You know, the only thing I see about nair having a slight advantage over uair in specific situations is that nair has two hits that are out in front of Ganon, while upair only has that one hit in front of him that scoops upward, but after it reaches that top point, it's not gonna hit anyone in front of you anymore (unless you're moving forward a lot and they get hit by your legs swinging downward, but that's pretty rare to happen).

Good point. Thanks for this post. With this sole advantage in mind, I've been fooling around with full hop nair fast fall. I haven't tried this out yet, but I wonder iIf you have a Fox in shield in front of you, whether it might be the case that the first hit will catch him if he fulljumps, while the second will catch him if he does something else OOS other than WD away.

SH instant UPAIR auto-canceled: 18-20 frames of vulnerability

How can Ganon be on the ground for that many frames before he can act? Even an l-cancel should be faster than that, not to mention an autocancel. I'm confused.

if you're frame perfect, you'll hit a standing Fox with upair, but not nair

Actually nair will connect, if you're standing right next to Fox. Probably what you meant.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Crouch cancel. He got you a lot with jab --> grab and nair approaches that led to you taking a lot of damage at low %. You can CC all of these things. CC his jab into grab or a jab of your own. Both viable, both really good. I didn't see a lot of grabs from you, and seeing as they auto combo into bair and fair, grabs are obviously pretty important here.

Thanks for the advice. This part right here is something I'm definitely aware of, but there's a reason I **** up my ccs as often as I do. Basically, I try to do them last minute, almost like a cc powershield of sorts to catch people offguard. I try to mind game people into attacking me with things that would be safe on shield or standing, but wouldn't be safe on cc. But I often just don't react fast enough and I miss the cc input. I'm a little too ambitious for my own good at times.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

How can Ganon be on the ground for that many frames before he can act? Even an l-cancel should be faster than that, not to mention an autocancel. I'm confused.

He's actually not on the ground most of the time during those 18-20 frames. Most of those frames are of Ganon still being in the air, but the upair hitbox is behind him at this point and there is no use to hit someone in front of him with it. I say 18-20 frames because the first 3-5 frames of upair when the hitbox comes out are either above and forward Ganon a little, or directly above Ganon. The 6th frame of the upair hitbox is starting to go behind Ganon.

Actually nair will connect, if you're standing right next to Fox. Probably what you meant.

Yeah I meant to say nair when it is spaced, not when you're right on top of Fox.

 

[Oldiz]

There is actually only 5/6 vulnerable frames when autocanceling nair, you probably used the 1.0 frame data.

 

[spider_sense]

F. Stein - I might go to EVO, how far is it from Vegas? I'd definitely would reimburse you for all your trouble. (Gas, food, green greens etc)

-ACE- I'm down bro, just hmu on here. Cuz I still don't have any minutes left on my phone. Jean said he'd be down to play at 9 but I know that's a bit too late for you.

I've been trying to find uses for nair. I was thinking if you could perfect waveland far enough for the nair to come and then right as the auto cancel comes out you instantly pivot jab/tilt. It could be a nasty crossup if done right imo. I got my cube back so I'll try to experiment with nair. Heck, if it's 16-17 frames of invincibility (correct me if I'm wrong) to do Ganon's ledge hop; you could add nair to the equation and maybe use it for a mid range poke; I don't think you could get both kicks to come out but just that one kick could have some added benefits; provided you do it fast enough. ledge hop (first hit) nair > uair > ???

 

[-ACE-]

Ganon frame perfect has 8 frames INV. But if you grab the ledge with reverse up-b you get 10 extra (so 18, also has to be FP).

 

[spider_sense]

Ganon frame perfect has 8 frames INV. But if you grab the ledge with reverse up-b you get 10 extra (so 18, also has to be FP).

Word, I'm trying to get the nair to come out but it requires some proper finesse with the stick so that Ganon isn't fairing, but just enough to inch him onto the stage. #babysteps.

 

[-ACE-]

I can ledgehop nair pretty well, just never found any great uses. Too busy abusing ledgehop jab and ledgehop grab.

 

[spider_sense]

I can ledgehop nair pretty well, just never found any great uses. Too busy abusing ledgehop jab and ledgehop grab.

I've never even bothered with nair onto stage period. lol Interestingly enough I'm somehow able to get NIL onto the stage when I'm trying to nair onto the ledge. It could just be me being godlike (), but who knows. I'll show you in person.

 

[DCW]

I've never even bothered with nair onto stage period. lol Interestingly enough I'm somehow able to get NIL onto the stage when I'm trying to nair onto the ledge. It could just be me being godlike (), but who knows. I'll show you in person.

Do you mean nairing from the ledge? If so, could be an aerial interrupt (https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2cx36o/aerial_interrupt).

 

[RedmanSSBM]

There is actually only 5/6 vulnerable frames when autocanceling nair, you probably used the 1.0 frame data.

Nope. I used my 20XX debug mode version 1.02 which has nair coming out on frame 20-21. I think you're just counting the frames he has until he lands, I'm counting when he lands and those 5 frames of landing lag that he gets whenever he lands, cause you can't dash or attack out of those frames.

I've never even bothered with nair onto stage period. lol Interestingly enough I'm somehow able to get NIL onto the stage when I'm trying to nair onto the ledge. It could just be me being godlike (), but who knows. I'll show you in person.

Yeah Ganon can Aerial Interrupt like D DCW said if you do it just right. From what I understand, you'll always Aerial Interrupt when Ganon is just above the stage from the ledge in his double jump forward animation (when he's in a ball rofl) and you do an aerial that pushes your ECB downward. Nair and bair do this I believe. There's even a pretty consistent and useful Aerial Interrupt with Falcon using bair to get him standing on the edge rather quickly, and with how fast his dash is, he can move forward a good bit with some intangible frames.

 

[-ACE-]

Aerial interrupt is something I've never been able to implement. It's intriguing tho

 

[RedmanSSBM]

It's easier with Falcon than it is with Ganon.

 

[Praxis]

Praxis I'm curious--are the knockback growth and base knockback for the second hit of Ganon's nair the same for 1.0 and 1.02? I ask because the knockback formula seems to be giving me weird results when I use the 1.0 data. Also, where can I find the raw 1.02 NTSC hitbox/knockback data? I have the 1.0 data thanks to Toomai's Hitbox Collection, but I couldn't find any updates for 1.02. Thanks!

That's actually a good question. I got the knockback data from Toomai and Kadano's work as well, and I didn't realize until later that that was Melee NTSC 1.0. I know Ganondorf's nair's second hit comes out faster in Melee 1.0...I'm not sure if the knockback is changed.

 

[Praxis]

You mean at Apex? Wasn't DLA the highest placing Ganon there? I saw he took a game from Trevonte. Impressive...

Nice. Who was the IC? I remember seeing Verm style on Praxis' ICs in a bunch of vids haha

I never played ICs, were you thinking about me and DLA in Brawl? Or is someone ripping off my name?

 

[Swagic]

GUYS WHY DO WE NOT DO CLOCK DI.

As in use directions on the clock to differentiate DI (12, 1, 2, 3, etc.)

 

[DCW]

That's actually a good question. I got the knockback data from Toomai and Kadano's work as well, and I didn't realize until later that that was Melee NTSC 1.0. I know Ganondorf's nair's second hit comes out faster in Melee 1.0...I'm not sure if the knockback is changed.

I'll experiment 1.0 vs. 1.02 nair this weekend and see if the knockbacks are different. It may be that I was just messing up the knockback calculations and that if I do them again the results will agree with my copy of 1.02.

Nope. I used my 20XX debug mode version 1.02 which has nair coming out on frame 20-21. I think you're just counting the frames he has until he lands, I'm counting when he lands and those 5 frames of landing lag that he gets whenever he lands, cause you can't dash or attack out of those frames.



Yeah Ganon can Aerial Interrupt like D DCW said if you do it just right. From what I understand, you'll always Aerial Interrupt when Ganon is just above the stage from the ledge in his double jump forward animation (when he's in a ball rofl) and you do an aerial that pushes your ECB downward. Nair and bair do this I believe. There's even a pretty consistent and useful Aerial Interrupt with Falcon using bair to get him standing on the edge rather quickly, and with how fast his dash is, he can move forward a good bit with some intangible frames.

Is there any advantage to doing an aerial interrupt rather than a NIL? Like, extra intangibility frames?

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Is there any advantage to doing an aerial interrupt rather than a NIL? Like, extra intangibility frames?

Aerial Interrupt still has the 4-5 frames of landing lag that every character has. NIL eliminates these frames entirely, meaning you can act on frame 1 when you land. So it is preferable to get a NIL over an aerial interrupt.

 

[F. Stein]

spider_sense as far as I am understanding, EVO is right in Vegas. I've got an 11 hour drive to EVO. Denver is like 9.5 hours, Salt Lake City is like 6.5 hours or something. So whenever you look at tickets and need a cheaper option lol I wouldn't mind, since I drive through those two anyways.

 

[-ACE-]

The Evo venue is most likely 2 miles away from the airport as usual.

 

[Divinokage]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXD68WIomZc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpaXRWpEGi0&list=PL65IMg9w1B_h7IKD3wJjGfYkc0R0QBbG6&index=18

Last 2 sets vs Ryan. Now I think the only thing im missing is figuring out how to not to commit too quickly for the edgeguard because if I do it becomes easier for Fox to recover in general. Even then.. cutting Fox's options isnt easy.

 

[Diosama]

^ Now this is Canadian Smash Bros, just 2 dudes friendly chatting in game.

 

[-ACE-]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXD68WIomZc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpaXRWpEGi0&list=PL65IMg9w1B_h7IKD3wJjGfYkc0R0QBbG6&index=18

Last 2 sets vs Ryan. Now I think the only thing im missing is figuring out how to not to commit too quickly for the edgeguard because if I do it becomes easier for Fox to recover in general. Even then.. cutting Fox's options isnt easy.

Just watched the first set while multitasking. Kinda had a friendly feel to it at times, lol. Great ****ing set tho. No turnaround jab after that DI behind at 16:03?

I'll watch the rest soon and rewatch the first one. Good stuff

Edit: LOL you guys. Good sets.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXD68WIomZc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpaXRWpEGi0&list=PL65IMg9w1B_h7IKD3wJjGfYkc0R0QBbG6&index=18

Last 2 sets vs Ryan. Now I think the only thing im missing is figuring out how to not to commit too quickly for the edgeguard because if I do it becomes easier for Fox to recover in general. Even then.. cutting Fox's options isnt easy.

Set 2, 5:15. You filthy legend

 

[Duel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXD68WIomZc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpaXRWpEGi0&list=PL65IMg9w1B_h7IKD3wJjGfYkc0R0QBbG6&index=18

Last 2 sets vs Ryan. Now I think the only thing im missing is figuring out how to not to commit too quickly for the edgeguard because if I do it becomes easier for Fox to recover in general. Even then.. cutting Fox's options isnt easy.

A very fun couple of sets to watch, great gameplay and it looked like you guys were actually having some fun too.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

it looked like you guys were actually having some fun.

Playing a video game? Imagine that.

 

[F. Stein]

Weekly tomorrow, doing tech practice tonight. I'm practicing one button WD oos and chain grab becausee because I've avoided wdoos alot and chain grabs are awesome. I need to learn to ledgedash and rld. Any suggestions or magical tips for those?

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Alotta hyrule temple