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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

-ACE-

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Stomp opportunities Bizz vs balloon

2:34 2:53 3:35 4:24 and 4:48

Reverse uair is hard to space vs dj sweetspot and reverse up-b. Stomp is underused. You can edge cancel and retreating dj and be safe of any MC/tech option. Better than whiffing. Use it.
 
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Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

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I've got my first The Melee Games crew battle coming up this weekend. The other team will likely have 2 Samus players, so I think I should do a bit of studying up on that MU, since nobody plays Samus in my area XD Anyone have any good Ganon vs Samus vids I could watch or at least some general MU stuff?
 

-ACE-

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Watch kage vs duck and old linguini vs plup vids and stuff like that.

Be VERY selective edgeguarding her. At this point I don't ever go offstage anymore unless I'm truly confident in the read or I can punish a down-b.

dthrow uair is all you've got out of grab.

Corner her and pressure hard with good spacing.

Respect ledgehop fair. You can sometimes wL toward the ledge (facing backwards) into shield, or AC bair very closely to the ledge into shield, and shield grab after they dj fair through you. Situational but sometimes you don't have time for your other options. Intelligent shielding is a must vs Samus.

Don't be like me and get hit by a fully charged shot LOL.

Wes Jr is always a step ahead of me so I'm not going to say a whole lot. He plays the mu better than esam imo.
 

PseudoTurtle

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I've got my first The Melee Games crew battle coming up this weekend. The other team will likely have 2 Samus players, so I think I should do a bit of studying up on that MU, since nobody plays Samus in my area XD Anyone have any good Ganon vs Samus vids I could watch or at least some general MU stuff?
Like Ace said, kage vs duck / linguini vs plup / hugs. It's a pretty easy matchup, but you have to be patient with respect to missiles and **** like that. Samuses (Sami?) Like to spot dodge a lot, so make sure you watch out for that. After spot dodge, they will most likely dsmash or dtilt, so if you do get caught with bad aerial timing via spot dodge, make sure you're DIing properly ("out" and up for dsmash).

Careful with empty hops here. I like to empty hop and waveland back and ftilt for a couple reasons: some Sami like to up-b ASAP when they get empty hopped, and some like to spot dodge. Waveland back --> ftilt allows you to sometimes connect if they spot dodge and it also brings you out of up-b range so you can up air / fair on the way down.

Sami don't roll, ever. If they do, you can usually punish on reaction. If a Samus is in her shield, they are likely to wavedash toward or back and ftilt. Your ftilt and dtilt have further range, so keep that in mind. Also, watch out for them CCing your jab into dtilt / dsmash. Crouch cancelling doesn't really do much for Samus at mid - high %, but be aware that your jab is CCable at lower %.

When Samus is on the ledge, bair just as you would vs marth. Spam that ****! Samus's recovery from the ledge sucks balls (minus fair, as Ace said, but space it and you're good) and if she gets knocked off stage, she's likely to end up there because of that damn grapple. Speaking of which, sometimes you can go out there and stomp if you have the read, but it's safer to just bair.

Forgot to mention, Samus's main approach option will be wavedash ftilt. It's pretty fast so be prepared. Also, your up air will beat out her nair and they like to use nair like luigi does- it's fast, so it is often used to break out of combos. Watch out for it after you dthrow her at low %

LOL ONE MORE THING: when recovering, don't always go for the fade back. If you recover towards center stage, Samus can't do **** besides dsmash to send you back off, but if you DI that, you won't even get knocked off. Only other thing they can do is mix up your DI with fsmash to send you the other way. In both cases, you can amsah tech it I think. But recovering vs Samus is kinda cool. After they get used to you recovering towards center stage (usually a big no for ganon), then you can fade back. That **** works man idk how.
 
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Coastward

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I've got my first The Melee Games crew battle coming up this weekend. The other team will likely have 2 Samus players, so I think I should do a bit of studying up on that MU, since nobody plays Samus in my area XD Anyone have any good Ganon vs Samus vids I could watch or at least some general MU stuff?
every samus in our region likes to jump immediately after they get hit so always be on the look to punish that.
 

Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

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Thanks for the advice guys! Gonna have a lot of vids to watch tonight lol

every samus in our region likes to jump immediately after they get hit so always be on the look to punish that.
:O oh yeah you might know these players. What can you tell me about any of the players on Queens? Habits, characters, etc.
 

RedmanSSBM

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Biggest thing to remember against Samus is to space yourself in neutral very well. If you're bairing her at a good distance, she has a very hard time doing anything about it and her up-b won't hit you.
 

X WaNtEd X

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Another thing to keep in mind is how you punish a whiffed grab. If Samus whiffs a grab at lower percents, go for a double dair and then try to read her tech. You're not going to put her into an edgeguard position at this percent, so you might as well get the extra damage. At the middle percents where this doesn't work, you dair to uair. And at high percents, just fair. Or if you know dair/usmash/fsmash will kill off the top, do that (fsmash is kind of hard to punish with though).

As Pseudo pointed out, you really can only uair off dthrow. Maybe bair if they have bad DI at lower percents, but I'm pretty sure they can trade with you there.

One last thing, aside from bair, ftilt is a great tool to stop Samus from recovering from the ledge. You can outrange her options with it and they probably won't DI it very well, so at higher percents and on smaller stages it has a chance of actually KOing.

One thing that I think is unexlopred in the matchup (and in general) is the utility of up-b in neutral. Great range, goes through shield, doesn't have the most KB but your goal is to get Samus on the ledge as much as possible so if it accomplishes your goal of cornering her it's ok.
 
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PseudoTurtle

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Ftilt works well for edge pressure? That's something I didn't know. Does it even go through the fair too? Because the priority on that move is pretty high and the only thing (in my experience) that beats it out is bair. I'll definitely have to try it out.

One of the main reasons I like bair, though, is because of the way it can knock them back off before the hit the ground. If they used their grapple to snap to ledge, they won't be able to use it again and it should be death. Reverse up air beats up-b every time.

Yea, but Samus really doesn't have a lot of options from the edge besides mixing up ledge hop timing lol. Very readable and even if you goof it up, 99% of the time, they'll dsmash afterwards, so just be ready for it (can even spot dodge it) and you're golden.
 

X WaNtEd X

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It does! It's similar to how it's used against Sheik (spidersense does this really well imo if you've seen his sets vs. Sheik players). You bait her into doing the fair, but you don't outright challenge the fair with ftilt; you do it right after the hitbox is gone and right before they can shield or do a move.

But yeah, I prefer to bair. But sometimes, you gotta mix it up or you're just not in a position to bair.
 

Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

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I played some matches against my friend's pocket Samus tonight. That MU is annoying lmao. Hopefully I won't have to deal with it in the crew battle XD Gimme a spacie and I'll **** 'em up lol
 

-ACE-

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Man I wish a Samus would come at me with that ledgehop fair bull****. I'll head kick that woe
"And I wish a n***a WOULD (wood) like a kitchen cabinet"

-2chainz lmao

I played some matches against my friend's pocket Samus tonight. That MU is annoying lmao. Hopefully I won't have to deal with it in the crew battle XD Gimme a spacie and I'll **** 'em up lol
I feel the exact same way. I think I made a post once comparing the Samus mu to driving on a Midwest interstate hwy.... Nothing but the same **** over and over lol.

As it is, I don't really have the tech stamina to win 6 minute matches with demanding neutral game. Spacies are do or die, you can play well for 90 seconds and you're about done lol.
 

RedmanSSBM

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Yesterday night I messed around with the "using only one move in neutral" idea with some friends and I actually found some pretty interesting things.

First of all, limiting yourself to just using upair and grab really does show how limited you become and how out of the box you have to think in order to do those two moves. There were several occasions where I got a grab on my opponent but he DIed and tech-ed behind me and I thought "dang, I could probably bair there." Most of the time I would use my upair to just try to hit my opponent and I rarely used grab or tried to bait him into shield to use grab on him. Using only upair meant that I had to do a lot of retreating upairs in neutral, I got to practice tipman edgeguards a lot, and I also worked more on doing the instant upair to try to hit Fox on the ground, and even that was hard to do on command in friendlies. But it definitely does show you the potential of upair, and how it can be applied in many situations. But using only upair, you get to see all that upair has to offer, in ways that you already knew, and in new ways that you might discover (like hitting Fox with the tipman on stage in neutral when he tries to jump in on me). You get to see where upair is strong as well where upair is weak. It's weak when you are facing away from your opponent and you want to come down and try to hit them with a strong move, so instead it's probably better to fade away from your opponent and upair so that it covers the space behind you when you land, making it safer to land.

Soon enough I slowly incorporated more moves into my gameplay and it was like building the blocks to the house of Ganon haha. It almost came with new knowledge or an expansion of knowledge I already knew about the character. I definitely feel like this is worthwhile in friendlies, because forcing yourself to use only one move means you are able to point out your habits more and see if those are good habits or bad habits. For example, a habit I would have is to dair out of shield on reaction to a certain attack on my shield, or a bair in neutral when my opponent is in a particular position. I would point out to my friend that the bair or dair I just did was completely a "knee-jerk reaction" and probably a habit. Now with that in mind, using one move can also expose your bad habits. I would often try to come down and hit my opponent with bair in mind, but since I was consciously limiting myself with upair, I would get hit a lot by spacie uptilt, something that I wasn't too aware of before last night.

I feel like it's small challenges like this in friendlies that are beneficial to learning more about the game and about your character. I did the same thing last night using only Link's nair and grab and got a lot of similar results, as well as understanding more about how Link's nair actually works. Now, I don't recommend you use this for every move the character can use. You want to use moves that have multiple uses and see if you can discover more, cause it's pretty useless to be Ganon and just try to side-b your opponent all the time. Using only one move in friendlies is actually kind of fun because it presents a challenge to you by purposefully limiting yourself. I believe it can help you learn more and I encourage people to try it out more in friendlies.

Oh also, when playing Puff, if she bairs your shield and is doing wall of pains, if you do an instant fair out of shield while holding forward, there is a very good chance that Ganon will at least trade with the next bair that Puff puts out. There are definitely some nice situations in neutral against Puff where putting out a fair early to challenge her space ended up paying off and getting me stage control. You do have to be a bit pre-emptive against Puff, but if you know what she is try to go for in neutral, your big hitboxes will straight up beat or trade with hers, and she hates trading. You just gotta do it early enough and be safe about it when you do it.
 

PseudoTurtle

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Yea, falcos are hard and annoying opponents. I still don't have a great way to deal with that annoying laser --> nair approach at that annoying spacing where you can't jab before nair comes out and you can't cc the nair because it's the strong hit.

Anyone got anything? Powershield the laser maybe? SDI laser back and then cc nair? I'm still having trouble here.

Anyway, some **** I learned is SDI the shine up at low % then SDI the dair up as well because the falco will most likely shine and you can stomp. That's pretty crucial IMO, helped me win a set the other day. Laser evasion is still some super tricky ****.
 

tm

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Divinokage

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You should probably be looking to find a new partner.
Lol wtf Ganon/Jiggs is broken.

Side-B to rest.
Stomp to rest.
Grab to rest.
All aerials into Jiggs edgeguards.
If you stick together you can destroy someone instantly. However it's rare to see ballsy Jiggs going for those setups.

My xp with Darc and Hbox has been very good. With Darc took a set off Jman/M2k back in the day, with Hbox we beat PP/Mango 3-2 in winners. Definitely could've have won the whole tourney. =(
 
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RedmanSSBM

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Lol wtf Ganon/Jiggs is broken.

Side-B to rest.
Stomp to rest.
Grab to rest.
All aerials into Jiggs edgeguards.
If you stick together you can destroy someone instantly. However it's rare to see ballsy Jiggs going for those setups.

My xp with Darc and Hbox has been very good. With Darc took a set off Jman/M2k back in the day, with Hbox we beat PP/Mango 3-2 in winners. Definitely could've have won the whole tourney. =(
Hm makes sense actually. I just get a bit worried that I might hit my puff team mate and kill her hella early cause I'm Ganon lol.

Good team chemistry is key.
 

Divinokage

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Hm makes sense actually. I just get a bit worried that I might hit my puff team mate and kill her hella early cause I'm Ganon lol.

Good team chemistry is key.
If thats the case then perhaps you or your partner's spacing and communication need to be better. You just need to let each other know who you are going to 2v1 while also talk about which positions you would want to cover in general. Ganon excels at vertical coverage while jiggs is better at horizontal coverage. So with that mind you can counter the other team strat by understand if they like to go on platforms a lot or not. If they like to come down at you then use that Ganon with uairs then start some chaos from that. From there Jiggs could go under you and continue to hit them or pressure them at least. If they want to challenge you from the ground then thats when you need to back off and make sure they dont get inside.. of course preferably sandwich them.
 
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X WaNtEd X

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Yea, falcos are hard and annoying opponents. I still don't have a great way to deal with that annoying laser --> nair approach at that annoying spacing where you can't jab before nair comes out and you can't cc the nair because it's the strong hit.

Anyone got anything? Powershield the laser maybe? SDI laser back and then cc nair? I'm still having trouble here.

Anyway, some **** I learned is SDI the shine up at low % then SDI the dair up as well because the falco will most likely shine and you can stomp. That's pretty crucial IMO, helped me win a set the other day. Laser evasion is still some super tricky ****.
You should do your damned best to stay out of that range as much as possible. So maybe wd back right before the laser so you're out of the range and then cc the laser and jab the nair. Your ideas also would probably work. Powershielding is obviously something people will always be practicing. But maybe practice SDIing the laser. I've been doing that a little bit.

Oooo I didn't think about SDIing the dair up at low percents. I always would try to go behind Falco. So you can just land into the dair if you SDI up to avoid the shine? Or do you have to double jump first?

Also did you try the full hop uair tactics yet? I'm curious how they went for you. I'm having trouble making it work, but when I do it right it pays off a lot. Wish I had some recent recordings vs. Falco. Maybe this weekend.
 
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PseudoTurtle

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I hope you guys know that I'm not talking out of my ass when I say wavedash out of shield is pretty useful. It's the only safe and guaranteed way to punish fox upsmash on shield when he's at low %. The only other way is to up-b out of shield and they can hit you after the up-b if their % is low.

This is a guaranteed punish if you're fast enough.

If your fox is a shielder, this is a great way to get maximum punishment (old gfycat, but relevant). I'm not sure if it's guaranteed or not, but if it is, you may have to be frame perfect. They may be able to shine you out of it.

PLEASE START WAVEDASHING OUT OF SHIELD AGAINST LAGGY A$$ MOVES
 
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tm

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IIrc a frame perfect stomp OoS can hit shielded upsmash (you might have to SSDI in though). It definitely works if it's staled, and it also definitely works if they don't shield right away (some people like to dash away instead to punish your WDOoS jab / grab if you are late). But if you aren't frame ****ing perfect WDOoS jab should be your go-to.

WD / upB OoS is amazing vs stuff that you can actually punish.
 
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