Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[KenMeister]

What are good MUs for me to use Ganondorf instead of Bowser? I figure Marth, Sheik and Puff mostly, but I'm not completely sure which ones would benefit me the most.
Inb4 "all of them" or "Fox"

I think you just answered your own question.

 

[gmBottles]

I think you just answered your own question.

Well sure but I'd like to play my main

 

[KenMeister]

Well sure but I'd like to play my main

Well, I guess if anything, I'd choose Bowser over Ganon in scenarios where people have trouble maintaining center stage control, so it's really more of a playstyle counterpick than a MU counterpick if you want my two cents. Otherwise, just play Ganon, he does everything Bowser does (range, damage, combos, edgeguarding) but better minus UpB OoS and ledge shenanigans.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

What are good MUs for me to use Ganondorf instead of Bowser? I figure Marth, Sheik and Puff mostly, but I'm not completely sure which ones would benefit me the most.
Inb4 "all of them" or "Fox"

Marth, sheik, and puff for sure. I'd say falcon and ganon too because ganon destroys bowser as does falcon

 

[gmBottles]

Marth, sheik, and puff for sure. I'd say falcon and ganon too because ganon destroys bowser as does falcon

I actually do pretty well in the Ganon MU. I beat a Ganon in tourney with Bowser and almost took a game off Ian's Ganon with Bowser (it was friendlies but he's way better than I am so it was a pretty big accomplishment)
Falcon I agree with though.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I agree with Ian. Having played PAL Ganon for an entire day earlier this year against some of Europe's better players, it was obvious how much better he is in PAL. The nerfed dair is actually great because you can use it to follow up on just about every character at higher percents than you would normally due to the reduced knockback. So in reality, you're gonna get a lot more off your dair in more situations. As far as the fair goes, it's definitely worse than NTSC. But you just have to bair more often.

Ganon is mostly a defensive character. So it reasons that nerfs to other character's punish games and neutral games will benefit you much more than your slightly greater strength in NTSC. That's pretty much my reasoning on why NTSC < PAL Ganon.

 

[-ACE-]

Ganon vs bowser is only slightly in Ganon's favor.

PAL Ganon seems to have slightly more followup potential and slightly less KO potential. If only your best follow up after a weaker dair wasn't a weaker fair. NTSC fair will create edgeguard opportunities sooner, and your bair will stay more fresh since you rely on it slightly less. Dair will kill sooner, and I think dair ko's have some importance.

 

[g00fballz]

lmao I literally signed up to smashboards to post here because Ian told me at HeirII this is how I can git gud. Plz notice me ganon sensei.

As far as PAL vs NTSC Ganon, I've mostly only had experience playing PAL but it seems like Eikelmann is pretty spot on imo. The extra regrab on Marth is pretty huge I think. I also agree with Ace re. slightly less KO potential for PAL Ganon given the nerfs to knockback/%. Imo dair is more important here because of its kill power on floaties, especially considering how good it is at shield stabbing. The fair nerf doesn't seem that important because bair is ****ing gdlike anyway.

Having said that, I just absolutely love bair because I play PAL Ganon so I spam that **** all day.

 

[-ACE-]

Too bad bair doesn't reach as high (or as low actually) as fair, so in the situations where you'd get a follow-up in PAL and NOT NTSC, you would have to use your less lethal fair.

It's important to note that in NTSC Ganon's bair surpasses fair in KB at 110% for jiggs and like 130-131% for super heavies. In PAL I'll bet you can subtract ~5% from those.

@ g00fballz welcome to the G boards, check all the sticky threads!! Ian wasn't lying!

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Dair KOs are hugely important IMO. A well DI'd rest gets you a dair on Jiggs on smaller stages, and it's good for characters with high landing lag after up-b, such as sheik. Also one of the few moves that can kill falcon off the top at a decent % (though probably better used on a platform) Ok vs marth too, but I suppose bair would be better to reset an edge guard.

I would say dair having better combo-ability would be better overall, but the fact that it leads into a nerfed fair kind of nullifies it. That along with its inability to combo at low percents kinda kills if for me.

Also, I seem to remember while watching Ian's crew battle that fair at zero doesn't lead into a tech chase opportunity on fast fallers, which is a huuuuuge turnoff. I could've imagined it though, so don't hold me to that one.

I also think that bair becoming stale due to its overuse is also something to consider. Though up air can be substituted in most edge guard situations.

And I'm pretty sure ganon destroys bowser. What are your thoughts on why the advantage is small?

One thing I didn't consider: dair --> grab combos a little higher vs sheik in pal. That's actually pretty huge.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

You could bair or pivot bair in some situations instead of weaker fair. And getting a dair into weaker fair is better than dair into nothing. I think having more opportunities to put people offstage is better than having fewer but better opportunities from putting people offstage.

 

[-ACE-]

In situations where PAL bair would reach, NTSC dair to fair would've worked.

 

[tm]

Dair KO's can largely be replaced by fsmash (except shield poke dair, but tomahawk -> aerial isn't much worse).

IMO, fair is overrated at med-high %. In my experience, players with great DI will live beyond the % that fair is noticeably stronger than bair the majority of the time. I don't necessarily think PAL ganon is better than NTSC ganon (he's probably not), but I don't think that I would miss fair /dair being stronger either. But he's obviously 'better' as in more viable, relative to the other characters, definitely.

Ganon vs sheik in PAL sounds so ****

 

[-ACE-]

Ehh, "largely" is a stretch. Ease/time to set up the dair is on your side. Fsmash takes longer. Similarly to how utilt is a better rest punish but jumping and starting a warlock punch takes less time/is easier to set up.

Edit: GOD I HATE SWYPE TEXT

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

goofballz is the best.

Also, from yesterday.
http://i.imgur.com/I1Ml31n.png

 

[-ACE-]

goofballz is the best.

Also, from yesterday.
http://i.imgur.com/I1Ml31n.png

Dude that should happen EVERY DAY lmao

 

[KenMeister]

Wanting to try and get good with Ganon again, so I wanted to see if I can pick him up once more since I've been a competitive fraud playing Smash 4 lately. Any tips on mixing up movement in neutral, approaching and pressure? Getting tired of my crappy reaction time not working well with me, though id like to say I have decent tech skill, when I'm not under pressure that is...I'm from the Pensacola area btw, so Ian has been by there before.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

goofballz is the best.

Also, from yesterday.
http://i.imgur.com/I1Ml31n.png

My boy @ -FEMTO- was on and didn't tell nobody #Shady

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Wanting to try and get good with Ganon again, so I wanted to see if I can pick him up once more since I've been a competitive fraud playing Smash 4 lately. Any tips on mixing up movement in neutral, approaching and pressure? Getting tired of my crappy reaction time not working well with me, though id like to say I have decent tech skill, when I'm not under pressure that is...I'm from the Pensacola area btw, so Ian has been by there before.

I think you should watch some videos of Melee Ganon, try some things you see out, and then come back with more specific questions.

 

[KenMeister]

I think you should watch some videos of Melee Ganon, try some things you see out, and then come back with more specific questions.

Well I mean, I know wave land mix ups, shfl aerials, frame data and the general function of Ganon's moveset, I just want to see what your guys' mindset and game plan is so I can apply it to my playstyle.

 

[-ACE-]

I post so ****ing much you'll get a decent outlook on my thoughts just by reading back a few pages. I can be long winded but I try to answer questions thoroughly yet concisely and you're asking for a thesis lol. Read up on this thread when you're bored there's a wealth of info.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Well I mean, I know wave land mix ups, shfl aerials, frame data and the general function of Ganon's moveset, I just want to see what your guys' mindset and game plan is so I can apply it to my playstyle.

Go watch gameplay then. You'll see in real time what people's game plans are. You're asking too vague a question. Most people that are any good have extensive "game plans" that vary depending on the matchup, stage, player, and other factors. There is no way anyone here can answer that for you without writing a book. You need to actually do some research for yourself and ask specific questions. You can't just come in here and say "guys tell me everything".

 

[-ACE-]

He also must understand decision making, especially in micro situations. The zoning aspect of neutral game is full of reads and reactions. These are often more important than punishment reads. Watch matches with good commentary or post examples and ask why a particular player decided to do something, you'll get an answer here.

 

[Divinokage]

Basically you should have learned fundamentals before applying random tech skill because learning wavedash and shffl is useless if you dont know how to use it. Everything basically comes from predicting your opponent's movement. Depending on the space you have between you and the opponent theres things you can bait out of him. Either jumps, dashes, rolls, wavedash, shielding, sidestep.. all of those you need to pay attention constantly and train those situations until you can punish without problems. Its never about reactions, it's always a prediction which makes it seem like in a video "that guy has really good reactions" when in reality its not that.

Rules of fundamentals is basically this:

If he's above you on a platform, you can watch out for falling aerials, shield drops or being baited on a platform.
If he's on the side then you try to read the options i mentioned above in the paragraph.
If he's below you then you can bait his double jump and downair him for example while staying on the platform or try your best to come back into neutral because being above someone is generally really bad.

But then when you punish moves you really need to know your own moves and his moves as well, thats how you train matchups. Theres multiple responses to beat out 1 move and yet initially those moves begin by dashing or jumping.

 

[-FEMTO-]

This may seem like an odd question, but how do you guys practice your Ganon? Do you go to training mode and spam techskill and % setups, or do you mainly get your training by playing/watching locals and tournaments? Is there some kind of daily routine or ritual you like to do? I for instance like to perfect waveland and moonwalk all over the legal stages at least once a day.

 

[KenMeister]

This may seem like an odd question, but how do you guys practice your Ganon? Do you go to training mode and spam techskill and % setups, or do you mainly get your training by playing/watching locals and tournaments? Is there some kind of daily routine or ritual you like to do? I for instance like to perfect waveland and moonwalk all over the legal stages at least once a day.

Pretty much. I like to practice my wavelands and mixup aerial approaches so I can get a good idea in my head of what I want to do, and what might work best depending on certain situations, and I play friendlies with people who attend tournaments at my college. That being said, I haven't played Melee or PM friendlies for 95% of the summer, so I'm extremely rusty.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

This may seem like an odd question, but how do you guys practice your Ganon? Do you go to training mode and spam techskill and % setups, or do you mainly get your training by playing/watching locals and tournaments? Is there some kind of daily routine or ritual you like to do? I for instance like to perfect waveland and moonwalk all over the legal stages at least once a day.

play people 100% of the time. learn frame data and hitboxes first hand so you can apply them.

 

[-ACE-]

How do I practice my Ganon?

I text @spider_sense, get him to come over and body the **** out of him. EZ$

 

[Bwmat]

I mostly play at tournaments (brackets & friendlies), but rarely i'll bust out the crt at home and play some endless time vs against a level 1 cpu because I haven't gotten around to getting 20xx set up (my current excuse is that my friend borrowed my wii, and is currently in New Zealand until who knows when lol).

usually just battlefield practicing tech skill for a few hours, not really combos or anything.

I find practicing neutral/combos/chaingrabs kinda useless cause level 1 cpu

I practice wavelanding in real matches by doing it pointlessly after a kill and such.

 

[Bwmat]

How do I practice my Ganon?

I text @spider_sense, get him to come over and body the **** out of him. EZ$

I dunno how useful ganon ditto practice is for tournaments LOL

If I ever faced a ganon I feel may beat me in bracket I'll just go falcon or fox.

 

[KenMeister]

I dunno how useful ganon ditto practice is for tournaments LOL

If I ever faced a ganon I feel may beat me in bracket I'll just go falcon or fox.

Ganon dittos are so wildly inconsistent. They can either become a pressure-based slugfest or a really boring game of who approaches first and punishes.

 

[Bwmat]

for me, either one person randomly gets a few hits and destroys the other, or we just gimp each other back and forth and it's dumb.

ganon edgeguards himself so ****ing well. More than any other character I'd say. (as in, no other character edgeguards themselves as hard as ganon does)

so basically what you said.

 

[Coastward]

@ tm did you find a teammate yet? i'm getting close to just teaming with a scrub from my region.

 

[tm]

@ tm did you find a teammate yet? i'm getting close to just teaming with a scrub from my region.

lol no. Don't give a **** about doubles at big house anymore. I'll team if you want

 

[VegiLohrd]

So what's everyone's plan/goal for big house? Should we have like a big ol ganon main picnic or something?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I just pick things I want to be able to do. Grind them until they're consistent. And then I take what I practice to friendlies later. That's the process for learning his movement options, ledge options, etc. It's what I've mostly done for the last year.

But these days, I'm doing a lot of research during my practice time. One thing I'm working on is compiling a list of all the areas on all the stages where Ganon can cover all the options out of a throw on fox, falco, and falcon.

Also training myself in matchups one at a time by utilizing the spam action function on 20xx. I keep track of all the different ways to punish common moves used by each character. Right now I'm working on Sheik.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

This may seem like an odd question, but how do you guys practice your Ganon? Do you go to training mode and spam techskill and % setups, or do you mainly get your training by playing/watching locals and tournaments? Is there some kind of daily routine or ritual you like to do? I for instance like to perfect waveland and moonwalk all over the legal stages at least once a day.

I do alot bruh, like too much

 

[Coastward]

lol no. Don't give a **** about doubles at big house anymore. I'll team if you want

ayyyyy

 

[Coastward]

So what's everyone's plan/goal for big house? Should we have like a big ol ganon main picnic or something?

i kinda wanna go get dinner with all the ganon bros and just drink it up LOL

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Wish I had 20xx set up been lurking in the 20xx thread but feel like a complete tard reading it. Guess its one of those things I just gotta sit down with a set up and go step by step.

I noticed when ever I learn a new technique I tend to over use it till Im comfortable with its execution and my consistancy with it. Gonna try and dedicate sat on getting 20xx up and running so I can train some different things Ive had in mind.

Oh Ace I chaingrabbed a shiek in one of those vids from 0-70%. opened with a stomp but I always think of you when ever I get a chain grab on any character. Is there an option in 20xx that lets you know when your character can respond to new inputs after a throw? Something similar to the red flashing if you miss a lcancel?