Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[X WaNtEd X]

I did awful at my tournament. I guess I can't really expect consistent results until I learn all the matchups really well.

The only good thing I did was take kage down to one stock in a Ganon ditto in a friendly. But then I started playing on auto pilot and got rekt the next two games. I hope those games got recorded.

Playing well is taxing, especially with the approach I take. I try to do everything too fast. I need to find a way to implement everything I can do while still actively thinking. It's gonna take a combination of drilling my tech even harder and being stubborn about it. If I have to take a thousand beatings to learn how to implement something, then so be it.

 

[-ACE-]

I know my biggest mistakes vs Peach were jumping oos predictably, over committing when trying to shark her float, approaching from boredom, trying to grab at the wrong times, and tech flubs. I wasted 2 grabs on usmash, one at 72% whiffed on no DI, and so did one at 66%. That I couldn't believe, fair from now on lol. Missed some edgeguard opportunities too, just couldn't get in position in time (flub).

Wish it was recorded.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I have the opposite problem with grabs. I don't do it enough against floaties. I'm just afraid of tomahawking and waveland grab because I feel like I'm going to get punished oos really easily. I'm going to practice doing them. My new tactic will be to condition Puff/Peach to shield by attacking the shield with aerials and pressure more often and then to start tomahawking after a bit.

 

[Coastward]

so n0ne was telling me how to improve and he said i tower too much.

i think i can unlock the potential in my play once i figure out the correct times to switch up my playstyle and not commit to the same style every single match. gotta grind OOS movement as well.

the thing is i dont know how i go about practicing playstyles. is that just something i can do alone slowly or do i NEED friendlies to fix it? i really wanna be on my game for big house, and with school starting next week i wont have much time to practice.

 

[Divinokage]

I did awful at my tournament. I guess I can't really expect consistent results until I learn all the matchups really well.

The only good thing I did was take kage down to one stock in a Ganon ditto in a friendly. But then I started playing on auto pilot and got rekt the next two games. I hope those games got recorded.

Playing well is taxing, especially with the approach I take. I try to do everything too fast. I need to find a way to implement everything I can do while still actively thinking. It's gonna take a combination of drilling my tech even harder and being stubborn about it. If I have to take a thousand beatings to learn how to implement something, then so be it.

If you have to take beatings? lol.. You must take 1 million beatings.

 

[-ACE-]

I switch between like 4 different "styles" I'd say as far as neutral game goes. For some matchups you sort of have to play the same way for the entire set.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Well the tournament I went to yesterday I feel like I played pretty well overall, (except against a new Puff guy) yet I still ended up getting 13th and going 2-2. I get the feeling that Charlotte locals are rather stacked, but also the seeding was rather wack, but I have no real complaints in the end. I lost to two Falcon players who are better than I am. The first Falcon I actually did pretty alright in the ditto to my surprise (he 4-stocked me almost 2 months ago) but then game 2 he CPed as G&W and I kept it close with Ganon but got greedy on the last stock and tried to get a grab to CG him but he saw through that and next thing I knew I was off stage. Then I got knocked out by another Falcon but this time I got bopped in the ditto game 1, game 2 Ganon clutched it out on Yoshi's (Thank God for reverse down-b sending Falcons off stage rofl) and then game 3 on Dreamland I got bodied too much for not being patient enough in my shield.

I feel like if you want to change styles you have to get a read on what your opponent looks for when you play, as well as how your opponent executes their game plan. If they tend to go rather slow and defensive, you have to match that style, but close the distance on them and scare them. If they paly aggressive, you can alternate between slowing things down yourself by building walls, or mixing up his aggressive approaches in neutral and tomahawking his shield and whatnot.

The way that I alternate between two styles of play is by thinking how hard I am gripping the controller. If I want to play more slowly and patiently, I focus on not trying to hit buttons as hard or as quickly. I think if you start off any day playing friendlies with this slow method of play, you will gradually and naturally get more comfortable over time to do the harder and faster tech that you have been practicing on your own for the past 2 months or so. I find that a lot of people just expect that they can do the crazy tech right off the bat first thing in the day, when that's not actually true (for me at least) and you gotta start slow first and be patient with yourself. I know this isn't something to really brag about, but I took a friendly game off of the best Puff in my city right now at the tournament on Saturday, and he told me that no one else beat him in a friendly that day (he got 2nd at the tournament by the way, it was pretty stacked). I beat him with Ganondorf. It's crazy that I'm still able to take games off of him as Ganon in friendlies, yet my Falcon has a lot of catching up to do, in addition to the Puff player really knowing how to play against Falcon (the only Falcon he has lost to recently has been his room-mate, who plays a very unique style). I also took a game off of the best player in my city's Marth in a friendly, and believe me, he was really trying in that friendly I could feel it.

I know there are times where I play this game really well, especially with Ganon, but boy does it take me a long time to get warmed up to get there. Even in tournament I still get really nervous against people that I beat, but not nervous at all against people that absolutely can beat me. My mentality has changed for the better, but it still has some flaws in tournament. I believe I have nearly perfected my mentality in friendlies (with the exception of me complaining about Fox on PS fire transformation, I get mad at that sometimes). I don't really get mad at the game much and even when I do it's because I get mad at myself for not playing as well as I want to.

There's a bunch of other things I could add to this but this post is already a bit winded as is without really seeming like it's going anywhere rofl.

TL;DR: I'm trying to get better, it's just hard to really show off with results at this time. Also college is in full swing so that sucks a lot of my time.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah you have to be warm and fast going in. Soon you'll see how badly Blea destroyed me first game and how I adapted game 2. I just wasn't ready.

 

[tm]

over committing when trying to shark her float

all day son

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

got beat by peach. Close game one, rekt game 2. Gotta focus on peach's camping more

https://youtu.be/VZizzUWHyvI

edgeguarding peach super ez btw

 

[-ACE-]

https://youtu.be/VZizzUWHyvI

edgeguarding peach super ez btw

That's the peach I lost to lmao. Why in the **** are you posting a non-Ganon set lol. I honestly think my Marth would beat him easy but I have to stay Ganon. Edgeguarding her is easy if you have time to cover her options (at least grab ledge) but challenging her up-b from the stage takes great spacing/timing.

 

[-ACE-]

http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/v/13660679

Me vs Blea at 1:00:00 mark. Almost got 4 stocked game 1, typical. Guy has me 80% downloaded.

@ X WaNtEd X what was the name of the tournament?
@ Divinokage how was it? Hype sets?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

@ -ACE- Queen City Melee. Vids will be up at some point. My friend and I did ok in doubles at least, taking third. But I didn't really feel like we played well. We both don't have a lot of synergy and he's too afraid to go for team combos so we just sorta stayed out of each other's way as much as possible and basically beat people by separating them and winning in 1v1 situations.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

If you have to take beatings? lol.. You must take 1 million beatings.

WHEN WILL IT END!

 

[-ACE-]

@ X WaNtEd X I give your region props just because there's a player named Seabass. Dumb and dumber fans master race

 

[VegiLohrd]

So I went to my school's bi weekly tournament. Got 2nd. But I got absolutely demolished in Grand Finals. Could I maybe get some analysis on my loser's finals play? I won but I feel like I could've done much better at it than I did. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZE9PGQsskg

 

[Divinokage]

http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/v/13660679

Me vs Blea at 1:00:00 mark. Almost got 4 stocked game 1, typical. Guy has me 80% downloaded.

@ X WaNtEd X what was the name of the tournament?
@ Divinokage how was it? Hype sets?

Well I 4 stocked the ranked 5-6 in Mtl ICs which i never did before on FD especially. Being on point is too good. =D Pretty much my highlight. Other than that, it was too easy overall. Nearly 4 stocked the entire region.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Well I 4 stocked the ranked 5-6 in Mtl ICs which i never did before on FD especially. Being on point is too good. =D Pretty much my highlight. Other than that, it was too easy overall. Nearly 4 stocked the entire region.

I'd like if you came out to Chicago again. You'd probably wreck everyone besides kels, dart, trail, and faceroll. Those would be good sets.

I could see vro, bieber, and maybe hindawg taking games too, but that's it.



**** man, will any of you please come to the Midwest? Lmao trust me we aren't as free as y'all think.

Sfat, westballz, shroomed, axe, gravy, ghatzu, and wizzrobe learned the hard way.

edit: but then again, I guess mdz came out and beat kels LOLLL

 

[PseudoTurtle]

double post: Dave and VegiLohrd, I'll analyze your matches later. I feel pretty comfortable vs luigi, so I should be able to provide a little bit of insight.

Vegi, falco has been one of my weaker matchups for a long time, but I finally feel like I'm starting to learn it. I'll do what I can.

Dave: Right off the bat at 1:00:46, you land a fair because you predicted his approach. Right after, you wanted the double fair because (I think) you expected the missed tech / tech in place. I love this **** vs fast fallers, but luigi is rarely put in tech chase situations. Good luigis here will do one of two things:

1) mash out of hitstun, which is what blea did
2) down-b out of hitstun. This is a gimmick that baits the tech chase and makes you overcommit. Because of the hitbox and properties of the move, you'll get hit when you overcommit.

Like I said, though, it is a gimmick and it should only work once or twice before you can adapt to it... though it took me literally weeks of playing knubs to get used to it and predict it, I can proudly say that I baited it out of blea when we played at evo and got stomps. He actually never stopped doing it lol, which was kinda funny.

He didn't do it this time, but keep in mind that tech chasing luigi won't generally happen unless you stomp them in the air.

IMO, too many late stomps. Stomp is great in this matchup, but the full hop stomp is loads better because late stomp only covers a certain area at a certain time, whereas the full hop stomp covers the entire approach, while also leaving you the option to double jump --> fair / ftilt or land lagless.

Short hop stomp is better used when he's below you i.e. when you're on a platform because luigi's jump is such a commitment.

It can work if you have the right read obviously, but it's generally just a higher risk move.

LOL like at 1:01:30. Like you read my mind.

Ok, so at 1:01:36, I like that you spaced your bair away from the edge because earlier he did that ANNOYING A$$ invincible waveland --> uptilt earlier. I'm honestly still struggling on how to edge pressure luigi because he's a slippery mofo, but I think the safest thing you can do is what you did. Unfortunately, you missed the grab afterward and good awareness to not be scared of the anti-aerial fireball.

Another general thing I would look into is your overall spacing vs luigi. He's like ganon in that he can use platforms to eat past the space you give him. If you have center stage, the best thing you can do IMO is stay there and see what he does. Empty full hop to cover both a grounded approach and a platform approach is a nice low committal reactionary spacing tool. Bizzarro flame is a huge fan of this.

I would have done the same stomp at 1:01:47 and got hit too LOL. Blea is too good at this matchup.

Only watched first match so far because twitch is loading at prehistoric speed for me right now. More to come later.

 

[-ACE-]

Lol have fun with game 1, I choked like Papa Doc.

 

[-ACE-]

And as far as edge pressure on luigi, you just need to know the spacing where his ledgedash loses invincibility. The frame he becomes vulnerable there should be a disjointed hitbox in his face, or even better (usually), grab. Grabbing ledgedashes is OP.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Well I 4 stocked the ranked 5-6 in Mtl ICs which i never did before on FD especially. Being on point is too good. =D Pretty much my highlight. Other than that, it was too easy overall. Nearly 4 stocked the entire region.

To be fair, VT is like barely a region.

@ X WaNtEd X I give your region props just because there's a player named Seabass. Dumb and dumber fans master race

You mean Swiftbass? There's no one notable called Seabass.

I guess mdz came out and beat kels LOLLL

He was talking mad **** about your local after too. He basically told a bunch of our players they could win it lol. You guys better be ready next time.

But no doubt, I know you guys have defended yourselves from good players before.

 

[-ACE-]

I saw a random named seabass in the challonge bracket, cracked me up.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

He was talking mad **** about your local after too. He basically told a bunch of our players they could win it lol. You guys better be ready next time.

But no doubt, I know you guys have defended yourselves from good players before.

To be fair, barely any of our good players showed up and faceroll upset kels, bieber upset faceroll, and good doctor upset bieber...... lol. So the grand finals ended up being MDZ vs good doctor, which is ridiculous, so he didn't really get to play any of the few good players that did end up showing.

No johns though I guess, he did win after beating kels.

 

[Divinokage]

To be fair, barely any of our good players showed up and faceroll upset kels, bieber upset faceroll, and good doctor upset bieber...... lol. So the grand finals ended up being MDZ vs good doctor, which is ridiculous, so he didn't really get to play any of the few good players that did end up showing.

No johns though I guess, he did win after beating kels.

In the end as I get older I also get wiser. If I doubt my skills then ill have even more a harder time to beat top players.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

To be fair, barely any of our good players showed up and faceroll upset kels, bieber upset faceroll, and good doctor upset bieber...... lol. So the grand finals ended up being MDZ vs good doctor, which is ridiculous, so he didn't really get to play any of the few good players that did end up showing.

No johns though I guess, he did win after beating kels.

I know I know. Matt is just like that lol. He's all about the disrespect.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Have vids up if you guys are interested. theyre kinda lagged from stream recording at some points.

http://www.twitch.tv/southfloridasmash/v/13519420
http://www.twitch.tv/southfloridasmash/v/13520525
http://www.twitch.tv/southfloridasmash/v/13525017
http://www.twitch.tv/southfloridasmash/v/13516972

lower quality no lag starts around 3:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_R9R6ZVajM

 

[-ACE-]

@Bizzarro Flame with the killer comeback

http://youtu.be/JtSvObsr8UQ

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

@Bizzarro Flame with the killer comeback

http://youtu.be/JtSvObsr8UQ

Shouts outs to YvngFlame, with the Red Ganon B)

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Hey guys. So I finally have a brief moment of free time and I decided that now would be a good chance for me to post about PAL Ganondorf.

First off, I just want to highlight all of the changes to Melee that I feel are specifically relevant to Ganondorf as a character and to his metagame.

Fair is reduced ONLY in base knockback, by 20 points. The damage of the move still remains the same and still stales as it would in NTSC. Weird, right? 17% is still quite strong.

Dair is reduced both in knockback AND in damage, from 50 to 40 knockback, and from 22 to 21%. Still absurdly strong.

So with this out of the way, it's easy to conclude that clearly the damage aspect of his moves is still quite good, right? No problem there. However, there are many ways, interestingly enough, that these nerfs truly do help Ganondorf in PAL. For example, dair to grab at 0% would not normally work in NTSC due to dair being at 50 knockback, BUT because it is ten points weaker, now dair to grab works on characters like Doc, or of similar weight. This opens up a lot of new options at low percent.

Other things which help:

Marth dair changed from a spike to a meteor smash, which makes recovering much safer
Marth weight changed from 87 to 85, which means that we get one extra confirmed regrab from 0% (dthrow *3 into two fairs is a perfect example of PAL Ganondorf in action imo. that's almost 60% from one grab).
Sheik can no longer dthrow CG, obviously, which is quite huge.
If Sheik grabs you near the ledge, you can basically just DI away to a position that would generally be much better than where it would put you in NTSC (regrab, ftilt, fair, nair, ftilt fair...the list goes on).
Sheik can no longer kill Ganondorf off the top with uair as the knockback scaling was reduced to 110.
Sheik upsmash is no longer a viable kill option, even if you DI in during dthrow, as the knockback was reduced to 102.
Yoshi's dair only deals 38%, assuming all of the hits connect.
Samus can't grapple out of bomb jump.
Fox dash attack doesn't crossup much anymore because late dash atack hit angle was changed to 55 from 72
Fox up smash doesn't kill as easily; base knockback was changed to 26 and knockback scaling was changed to 108
Fox up b doesn't go nearly as far, which makes it easier to edgeguard him
Falco dair doesn't spike as easily (see why here)
Falcon weak knee is worse, sourspot changed to 30 base knockback

All of these changes help Ganondorf far more than stronger fair in NTSC could ever do. Or do you guys still think that I'm nuts?

 

[-ACE-]

Well first you just said PAL Ganon. I already stated that I'd take Ganon's scenario in PAL over NTSC. As far as making fair and dair weaker, I still don't think any benefits outweigh the loss. Stomp to grab might work on Doc, but not far after 0%. Dair to nair/uair is just fine, since all you can do is uair him after a dthrow. Much better to have this tactic work vs Fox than Doc imo. Stomp is also a very reliable kill move in NTSC, not as much in PAL and I could see that being a pain. Tacking on percent safely is hard for Ganon since he has a bad neutral game. Making his moves count for less will often mean you have to get one more read to take the stock. I also believe that as far as the stomp goes, it's uses basically shifted, I don't think a **** load of new opportunities arise from it.

 

[Nicco]

Fair is still 17 in PAL. I main PAL Ganon.

 

[-ACE-]

Fair is still 17 in PAL. I main PAL Ganon.

I stand corrected.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Gotta say, I agree with ace on this one. As far as ganon in pal goes, his situation is overall better because of the fox / falco / falcon / sheik nerfs. Pretty huge, actually.

However, the changes ganon underwent in pal (not in regards to any other characters) seem to really only benefit his matchups vs marth and doc, while seemingly significantly screwing up his matchups vs fast fallers (stomp --> grab at zero is huge).

Marth and doc etc are already very doable matchups, but the fast fallers are a different story.

If you wanna visualize what I'm saying, imagine replacing pal ganon with ntsc and see how much he would wreck with the nerfs on the other characters.

 

[-ACE-]

22 people on the G boards?!? Did Ian summon half of Europe for this debate? Lmao.

 

[gmBottles]

I pretty much migrated here from the Bowser boards since those are extinct at this point. But the PAL vs NTSC thing is pretty interesting, it's cool to see how different the game is in different regions.

 

[-ACE-]

I love seeing more ppl here. I saw 6 users and 16 guests and could hear the melee announcer:

A NEW RECORD!!

 

[Coastward]

ians facebook is too real.

 

[-ACE-]

ians facebook is too real.

Lol. My hiatus from stalkbook is now over a year long.

I really hope more people start posting here. Not many PAL Ganons post.

I bet late SHFFL'd fair to uair scoop works more often in PAL, good vs falcon/dittos/heavies that don't DI away. This is a small opening for an extra option NTSC Ganon doesn't have (and then occasional double fairs vs horrendous DI), but I'll always take NTSC Ganon. Hell, gimme a 30% stomp that kills at 75% and a 20% fair that creates edgeguard situations from center stage at 0%, I won't complain one bit

 

[gmBottles]

What are good MUs for me to use Ganondorf instead of Bowser? I figure Marth, Sheik and Puff mostly, but I'm not completely sure which ones would benefit me the most.
Inb4 "all of them" or "Fox"