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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

n0ne

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 25, 2009
Messages
509
Location
Toronto, Ontario
He getup attacked every single time. I
nah i dont think pbnj is that good
He getup attacked every single time. Id say hes pretty bad cuz hes 'one of those foxes' that like to touch alot of buttons. Thankfully in smash as well as SF4 there are ways to punish ppl that dont calm their fingers.
 

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
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Messages
1,744
Location
Greensboro, NC
Fox gets caught up into techchase situations fairly early percentage wise. I believe an ftilt at 30 percent if not CC will knock him down. U could say its one of the weaknesses of the great and mighty Fox, along with his weak techroll.

U gotta prioritize putting spacies in tech chases and practice tech reads, its when u can get the most out of them if u can avoid/read gettup attacks and spotdodges. Imo theyre what mess dorf up the most.

Anyways, in the neutral game, waveland ftilt is the best approach most of the . It pressures fox a lot. Especially when hes camping u, u will usually get him by surprise cuz ppl dont expect the range of waveland + ftilt.

Stomp out of shield a bit more, but dont abuse it, be smart about when to utilize it, he was doing some really sloppy shine combos which couldve been punished with stomp oos. Or, wavedash back oos and ftilt .
Funny thing is, the Fox that I was playing used to main Ganon (if it wasn't obvious from game 2), and he told me that short-hop into perfect waveland ftilt is really good. I should definitely use that more, when finding holes in the Fox's approach.

I want to try to time full hop stomp out of shield better, cause if I do and get the hit, it can lead into a tech-chase like you said, and if I miss I don't have to worry about l-canceling cause it auto-cancels if I full hop. I'll still have time to maneuver away from the Fox even if I miss the dair OoS, I just need to time it right. Same thing goes for Wavedash out of shield into an ftilt. I still haven't gotten that to be muscle memory, so I need to practice that more as well. Also retreating fair out of shield ain't half bad either.

Thanks again for the advice @ n0ne n0ne
 

n0ne

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 25, 2009
Messages
509
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Funny thing is, the Fox that I was playing used to main Ganon (if it wasn't obvious from game 2), and he told me that short-hop into perfect waveland ftilt is really good. I should definitely use that more, when finding holes in the Fox's approach.

I want to try to time full hop stomp out of shield better, cause if I do and get the hit, it can lead into a tech-chase like you said, and if I miss I don't have to worry about l-canceling cause it auto-cancels if I full hop. I'll still have time to maneuver away from the Fox even if I miss the dair OoS, I just need to time it right. Same thing goes for Wavedash out of shield into an ftilt. I still haven't gotten that to be muscle memory, so I need to practice that more as well. Also retreating fair out of shield ain't half bad either.

Thanks again for the advice @ n0ne n0ne
Also, when u grab, its a bit hard but try to down throw without pummeling. Exaclty as falcon, their d throw agains fox is really really fast, and its really hard to tech the throw even when NOT caught off guard, theres a free no tech punish for ya.

Btw i remember black chris. So he turned coat and goes fox now?
 
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s0teric

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 3, 2013
Messages
22
Location
Missouri
@ X WaNtEd X X WaNtEd X
You were asking about controls for doing full hop double back air and I believe I've found something relevant to make that and multiple aerials with ganon easier. I started practicing this and I found using up on the control stick to jump gives:
1) greater maneuverability in the initial jump
2) an easy way to full hop consistently
3) easy to use cstick to execute aerials immediately after the jump

After the initial jump I switch to x for my second jump, but I think that up definitely helps with doing aerials immediately after the initial jump. Instant uairs become so easy and soo quick.
 

tm

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
819
Location
NWOH
Fox gets caught up into techchase situations fairly early percentage wise. I believe an ftilt at 30 percent if not CC will knock him down. U could say its one of the weaknesses of the great and mighty Fox, along with his weak techroll.

U gotta prioritize putting spacies in tech chases and practice tech reads, its when u can get the most out of them if u can avoid/read gettup attacks and spotdodges. Imo theyre what mess dorf up the most.

Anyways, in the neutral game, waveland ftilt is the best approach most of the . It pressures fox a lot. Especially when hes camping u, u will usually get him by surprise cuz ppl dont expect the range of waveland + ftilt.

Stomp out of shield a bit more, but dont abuse it, be smart about when to utilize it, he was doing some really sloppy shine combos which couldve been punished with stomp oos. Or, wavedash back oos and ftilt .
Helpful stuff!
 

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
@ X WaNtEd X X WaNtEd X
You were asking about controls for doing full hop double back air and I believe I've found something relevant to make that and multiple aerials with ganon easier. I started practicing this and I found using up on the control stick to jump gives:
1) greater maneuverability in the initial jump
2) an easy way to full hop consistently
3) easy to use cstick to execute aerials immediately after the jump

After the initial jump I switch to x for my second jump, but I think that up definitely helps with doing aerials immediately after the initial jump. Instant uairs become so easy and soo quick.
I was talking about doing it with full hop dair to double jump bair/uair to falling uair/Nair. I can already do that with bair and uair.

I'll try this that way. But I'd like to be able to do it with x because then I can control where I have my dair better.
 

s0teric

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 3, 2013
Messages
22
Location
Missouri
I just tried using the method I described and got it out on the third try.

Edit: So dair->bair->uair is probably the trickiest, you just gotta make sure to use the up stick again for the rising bair so you can get the falling uair/nair out.

And you can do it with x. I just suggested a way to do it easily. I mean either method requires adaptation, but placement of moves after flicking the control stick up is just done by rolling the stick back or forward, so it seemed pretty straightforward to me. I wouldn't use this for SHFFLing don't get me wrong, but I think it makes this kind of thing a whole lot easier.
 
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Gliffie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 15, 2012
Messages
154
Location
Trondheim, Norway
3DS FC
0130-1906-3068
Is there a way to turn around in the air, other than up-bing? I keep getting hit off with my back to the stage and therefore can't do the down-b recovery.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
Full hop dair oos is super badass. It is a hard read as you anticipate an approach normally when doing this, but it does not come with all of the drawbacks of many hard reads (from neutral), since you can jump afterwards before hitting the ground. And the punishment potential is uncanny.
 
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RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
1,744
Location
Greensboro, NC
Also, when u grab, its a bit hard but try to down throw without pummeling. Exaclty as falcon, their d throw agains fox is really really fast, and its really hard to tech the throw even when NOT caught off guard, theres a free no tech punish for ya.

Btw i remember black chris. So he turned coat and goes fox now?
Alright, I'll work on not pummeling when I get a grab. It's a habit for me when I chain-grab to give me as much damage as I can, but I guess you're right, the faster the better.

Yeah, he went Fox after losing to Smurfy.exe at Apex 2013. Figured he'd been playing Ganon too long to be getting stomped by Links. He still plays Ganon every now and then. Each time I watch him play Ganon I learn something new.
 

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
1,744
Location
Greensboro, NC
Alright guys, I think we should take a minute to look at Mew2King's Ganondorf from the Round Robin that occurred from Smash The Record. I feel like pointing out things that I saw and I want to know what you guys think as well.

http://youtu.be/DAksajEjxtM?t=27m4s

First off, right off the bat we get to see Mew2King go against Mango's Fox. I'd consider this match of all the M2K Ganon matches to be the most crucial, cause it's the best Fox in the world, and you know that Mango was trying.

He uses that lower part of the fair hitbox when retreating to catch mango, and then immediately after uses the extended part of the fair to catch him in his dash dance. He then runs away to cover the high up-b recovery with the back part of an up-air.

That's something that I see, what do you see?
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
I see a bunch of well-spaced spam barely working out. He messed up a lot of stuff that takes matchup knowledge but had good basic tech skill and fundamentals. Also mango is not the best vs ganon so...
 

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
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Messages
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Greensboro, NC
I am legitimately jealous of all you Ganons that are in really active regions that go to tournaments on a weekly basis. Like in the Tri-state area or the Midwest or even Florida.

I'm in a really poor spot where not enough is getting done and I'm struggling just to get a ride to certain tournaments that I want to go to.

It makes me rather depressed. :(
 

PseudoTurtle

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
2,162
Location
Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
I'm with you caps. Chicago has an amazing scene, whereas in champaign, probably the only player who's above (rather than at or below) my level is ripple. Or a falco player. But ripple quit melee for pm, so that sucks.

Gliffie, the only ways to turn around are side-b (not viable) and warlock punch (I can only see this as being viable when you get dsmashed by samus and are sent way the **** away). Other than that, no.

@ Renth Renth , you'll be pleased to know I have now taken $10 from your good buddy battlecow. Can you also give a little advice vs sheik? You seem to enjoy the matchup, but I just can't wrap my head around it. I understand cc> dtilt is a great option for a free uair, but what if your opponent dash attacks? Even if you're able to cc the dash attack without knock down, she ends up behind you. Other than that, I feel like sheiks can just spam dash attack and dsmash and get under all of ganons quick defensive moves (jab, tilt, etc). Maybe downward ftilt?
 

Bl@ckChris

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
7,443
Location
Greensboro, NC
wanted to see my match analysis cuz i figured locke posted it here.

wasn't disappointed.

miss you guys. my true form is a dual main, so i may drift back here more often since i think i'm getting back into things.
 

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
yeah for real. the old matchup thread is aight but seriously outdated. like i realize you wanna do every matchup with a really good player to get the insider scoop. but what if you just did that later and added revisions where necessary? i feel like the information here needs to be better organized now that this is actually an active subforum again. reading everything in one thread is hella tedious.
 

Renth

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
5,938
Location
Colver, PA
yeah for real. the old matchup thread is aight but seriously outdated. like i realize you wanna do every matchup with a really good player to get the insider scoop. but what if you just did that later and added revisions where necessary? i feel like the information here needs to be better organized now that this is actually an active subforum again. reading everything in one thread is hella tedious.
I'm working on it.

I keep wanting Linguini to come over and hang out but our schedules never work out.
 

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
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Lowell, MA
oh forgot to mention. i got to play with the former top ganon in new england, a fellow by the name of diesel last night. he's retired, but i picked up some tricks from him. pretty cool dude. he trained his girlfriend to play peach and specialize against ganon lol.
 

Renth

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
5,938
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Colver, PA
Okay, I got 3 vs. sheik sets recorded. Do I upload all 3 sets or figure out which one was the best and upload just the one?
 

cptjiggles69

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 17, 2012
Messages
294
Im with you as well caps. I live in canada so right away smaller smash commmunity. I live outside of toronto an hour or so and can barely get there. Too much life, not enough smash! Plus canada does not have that competitive drive like the us
I am legitimately jealous of all you Ganons that are in really active regions that go to tournaments on a weekly basis. Like in the Tri-state area or the Midwest or even Florida.

I'm in a really poor spot where not enough is getting done and I'm struggling just to get a ride to certain tournaments that I want to go to.

It makes me rather depressed. :(
 

Renth

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
5,938
Location
Colver, PA
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tm

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
819
Location
NWOH
Is there a way to turn around in the air, other than up-bing? I keep getting hit off with my back to the stage and therefore can't do the down-b recovery.
You can reverse warlock punch :>
but for all practical purposes, no. Just recover high and try to live / make them mess up.
 

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
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Greensboro, NC
Do you think FD is a viable counterpick to take Sheik to? I feel like it is because you can have the upper hand to approaching with wavelands, you get a grab and she's pretty much dead if you don't drop the chain-grab, and at like 100% she's dead from either an up-smash or an f-smash. If she tries to DI off the stage, you can just drop-zone fair or upair depending on how high up she goes. Sheik has a hard time approaching (in general) and on this stage too cause there are no platforms. Of course, if you get grabbed you're in trouble, but I think you can get out of it easier and her only finishing move that I'm aware of that straight up kills you is the dynasty up-smash. If you DI her fairing you properly you can recover, but it's a ***** recoverying against her. I just feel like you can have a lot of control on FD if you make the right decisions and play the neutral game properly.
 

Renth

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Colver, PA
I like FD vs. Marth, Sheik, Ganondorf.. and a handful of others

any match that requires you to have a strong zoning game where you need to keep them away i prefer flat rather than platforms
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
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Aug 6, 2006
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Montreal, Quebec
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Superspright

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
1,334
Just won the Versus weeklies today.

http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/b/567309676

VS| Porkchops (Falco) 5:28

Wes Jr /Grand Finals (vs Samus) 6:03:41

My match with HuGs finally got uploaded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drB2GXi-dxQ <---This one needs critique, so please comment.
I dunno if you care if I critique or not but I'll give it a shot. I won't go really into too specific of detail because a lot of the things you already know obviously but I'll try to give a general idea. I also won't go over what you did right because that's obvious.

You seem a little impatient in game 1. You're too eager to trade with her when you can just wait for a better neutral position to work from. Your ledge options weren't mixed-up enough. You never used ledge-dash roll for instance, or just simple getup jab. You almost always used ledge-dash and then an option. It becomes predictable very soon. I think a lot of Ganondorfs hang out on the stage too often when they can be ledge-stalling and trying to bait something. I don't think that's exclusive to you, but I noticed a few instances where you may have been better positioned lower as to force her to do something. Just beware of grapple shenanigans.

When he had a fully charged shot you should have stayed grounded. Unless you can react to him with an air-dodge you're going to have a hard time approaching him without risking eating it. Just don't make your wavedashes predictable or he'll read it and fire at you as you retreat back while you're trying to gain space on him. I think you could have been more patient there.

By the way, you can use your dash dance to powershield the missles very easily. He never shot many very low. As you dash away press hard-shield and pause simultaneously and you'll notice that nice disjointed arc that covers your back. Use that to cramp up his missle game. It's not that hard. You can even use c-stick up to buffer a jump OoS and maybe Bair or wavedash. If you can do it with Marth it's a little harder than that. I can get it about 90% of the time once I am warmed up.

Otherwise you did fairly well in game 1. He is a great Samus player. You got caught in a few combos that could have been avoided by tech-rolling but whatever.

Game 2

I'm starting to notice you have opportunities to shield-drop punish. I don't know if you know how, or if the timing is difficult for you or not but start using it. Samus being floaty makes her aerials pretty laggy in the air, and if they hit your shield they are garbage except for fair.

Never forward throw...not sure if that's a mistake or not, but you always have a better follow up from down-throw. Even if you put her off stage she's not sweatin' from that weak ass throw. B-throw is a little better, but still. Some crazy stuff went down in this match.

It sounds silly, but I feel you should never get hit by a missile ever unless it's tech-chasing you. Nearly every missile should be power-shielded or dealt with some other way. You should have worked more to bait his up-b OoS. He zoned you fairly well with ftilts. So be wary of them. They aren't really punishable at max-range like he was using them so you're just going to have to fake him out or trade with it. You did really well but he seems to know how to abuse Ganondorf really well. He caught you with a ton of missles off stage which you couldn't avoid. That's about all I can think of besides some minor mistakes like missed executions or flubs.
 
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