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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
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Location
Montreal, Quebec
I'm saying when I'm at that close to Falcon, all he CAN do is either jab, knee or Nair so regardless of what happens at low % I can counter-attack all his options easily, based on what available options Falcon has point-blank and my current %.

Ftilt or downtilt from Falcon is too risky from that position as well because of an easy shield grab.

CC covers Nairs and jabs (Which allows me to jab and grab) and if he would of kneed then I can jab him before knee comes out.

If he would of overshot Nair instead then the available options to me become less, bair OOS is usually too slow since good Falcons will stay away from that for sure.. so all I can do is get out of shield (WD or dashing) asap and from Falcon to avoid another possible aerial.
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
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Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
I can't do it all the time but if I somewhat predicted it already then it's easier to do it with reactions. My description was what 5 seconds? There's a lot of things you need to account for at that level lol.
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Oh alright then.

1:32 - I decided to stay in the middle to maintain good positioning because controlling the center is quite important. I dodged because I got scared for an impending attack but it didn't happen so I got upaired once no big deal, I rolled away just in case where he grabbed so that was good on my part.

1:35 - In this position for Falcon he has to throw an aerial to reach so I expected that and what happened is I got Naired which traded with my upair, again no big deal it's always a good trade for Ganon. He approached again from the ground, I threw in a Ftilt expecting maybe something else but it got powershielded, jumped over me and behind me. Me not having realized that yet I tried to poke him again but failed.

1:37 - I probably got scared again and not assumed the right choice so I dodged (It's usually not good) and got reversed Naired for it. From this point, I had to tech because not teching vs Falcon is too brutal. I decided to tech inwards where he didn't go, that was good.

1:39 - Now, I think he knew I was still pressured and I wanted to keep him away so I baired but he knew it which ended up me getting upaired instead. I think I DIed away somewhat but even at low-mid % he got a re-grab out of it. I don't think there could've of been a good DI there because if I DIed more upwards that means I'm on the platform which could of resulted in more upairs or combos. I thought he was going to downthrow but he upthrew and I DIed away again, so that gave him another upair to a 2nd one because again my % was pretty low to avoid it.

1:44 - So I'm off-stage, I did DJ down-B to get my 2nd jump back but he predicted that and got me with a bair REALLY low lol so there was no place to DI for me apparently and I died.

1:50 - I took the center right away because I'm invincible and tried to DD in front of him using the invincibility to bait out something... but I should've known better because there's no way someone would attack someone invincible. I saw him shield and he WD away and rolled in right away while I'm still trying to push away from the stage mentally so I had to WD in back after my jump because nothing came out of that lol and I attacked him with a Ftilt to counter his Nair but it seemed like we both expected the same thing and we both whiffed.

1:53 - I was still in lag from my Ftilt while his Nair is faster from recovery and grabbed me, smart thing to do to grab Ganon early. He upthrew but I think he missed the follow up grab which resulted in me pushing him with downtilt. I tried to combo into jab but that missed too.. (I wanted that to push him away close to the ledge) maybe Ftilt could've worked. I WD in really wanting that jab but that was stupid so I got Naired at least I was able to counter it with CC in time... and tried to jab again but he had time to block it.. I threw in another expecting another aerial but he didn't do anything.

1:56 - He jumped back to avoid an aerial I was looking for and I did throw in an upair because of that but now he wanted an aerial for sure at this point and I jabbed before an aerial came out... I tried to combo into downtilt but I think I was a tad too slow so he blocked it. He naired me in time because I was still not able to throw out anything, I think the first hit got powershielded but the 2nd one hit somehow. So with that he managed to push me away from the ledge at last and he rolled back to make some room since Falcon uses his mobility to trick his opponents more rather than using the moves themselves.

2:00 - I threw out an empty Ftilt, just in case he did dash in and naired, and then wavelanded on top of the platform into bair to change my angles of attacking and mix it up a little bit. I managed to get him in shield so I was able to jab his jump OOS After that, he was still shielding, but I was a bit far so I spaced a Fair and maybe shield stab him since his shield was low. (I could've of grabbed but I wanted to mix it up a bit more just in case)

2:03 - He dodged and I went for an upair straight in which wasn't good because that allowed him to roll behind me, I thought maybe he was gonna jump again but now he's the one that got away and I'm the one near the ledge, oops! And now I crouched just slightly avoiding the upair, lucky me he tried to predict a jump too and that gave me a free grab. I upthrow him on the platform to give me an easy techchase but he teched in place quickly which I didn't expect so I kinda had to go with a timed aerial instead.. I jumped from the front to behind him and baired but he rolled so the Baired missed. From that point, I can't really do anything else.

2:06 - I guess he expected that I would still be up there and upaired through the platform but I wasn't there so I side-B to punish the landing lag from the upair... he landed on the right platform, I tried to chase him, I had the read that he was going to roll to the left on the platform but I missed my Dair just by a bit. I think because I hesitated when I wavelanded on top of the platform which didn't allow me to Dair in-time. A good suggestion there is to either re-grab or downsmash.. because downsmash covers the WHOLE platform.

2:09 - The dair pushed him below which wasn't good for me, I tried to dropzone Fair but he upaired me first while maintaining his good position. I got up and shielded from the pressure, he naired my shield.. no damage done yet but I'm definitely thinking I have to get off the platform somehow. (Still need to L2 shield drop) I jumped back upair once for no good reason and then uaired him again while I'm still on-stage to try to push him away but that was easily predictable and he grabbed me.

2:13 - He techchased me with Uair after the upthrow while I'm still trying to escape the bad positioning and Uaired me again.. I tried to stay away as much as I can. I think he might of hit me with a one hit Nair to attempt to reset me but I managed to roll away... however the roll away didn't do much because he was still in my face. I tried to down-B to escape the pressure or counter-attack him but he one-hit Naired me again to counter that and he was on the platform so that was a stupid move from me. And then I dodged in panic but good thing he daired and that missed. lol... I probably should've used different moves here.

2:17 - He naired me again to probably finish me off with a combo but I powershielded it into grab. I backthrow him to send him off-stage since the % were somewhat favorable. I baired him once expecting an immediate counter-attack but that didn't happen and then he dodged after a DJ so I waited until he was near the edge so that I can time a bair again for the kill.

2:21 - Tried to stay away from Falcon as much as possible and ended up on the platform missing a few things I wanted to do to avoid being on there and accidentally upsmash... that means I got kneed of course lol. And I should probably go for the ledge when he's invincible but I personally don't think it's good to do that since you are Ganon and you have next to no options from the ledge.. I mean you can easily get counter-attacked because your options are limited.

2:29 - I DJ down-B just with a slight different timing and he wanted to knee the down-B but missed just a bit... and then I tried to reverse upair spiked him from where he was but that missed too which resulted in me getting up-B so then I took that opportunity to tech PUNCH him. lol

2:38 - He was running back and forth in and out which scared me a lot so I shielded/dodged and then he whiffed a grab so I ftilted. I think I wanted to downtilt but downsmash came out instead so he managed to downtilt me instead.. which is not good.. I kinda knew he was going to follow up with an aerial so I daired his upair and that traded but that was a good trade because I'm very high % and he's not... and then I tried to air control to the ledge but he just baired me to finish me, there wasn't much I could do there.

2:48 - Again, jabs to prevent anything OOS, I did one it was blocked. The 2nd one worked because he jumped OOS... and then I think I wanted to WD in and grab but I failed to input. I tried to CC but then decided to counter-attack instead and I got naired for it. I tried to Ftilt another possible aerial after but he didn't throw anything so it whiffed. I saw him shield so I went for another grab, but I think he knew I was going to go for it this time so he stomped above me into upthrow because that combos and is a good combo against Ganon.

2:50 - He then followed up with Nair and I was in no position to SDI it. I teched inwards again, he expected it because I did it before and got me with a weak hit bair.. I was still standing in stun and he managed to get a Nair and all I could do was shield there, I tried to do something OOS but gentleman is faster because Falcon is on the advantage I think. I tried to dash attack right after but I was nowhere near close to him for that, I thought he was going to close in sooner than that. My input was already inwards so Bair allowed him to combo into Uair.. but then I wasn't sure what was gonna happen so I got kneed lol. I didn't think it was gonna combo like this.

3:01 - I rolled inwards to scare him as he was already putting up his shield in case I attacked and then DDed like crazy to bait something so he did roll this time, good for me. I upthrew him maybe should've downthrow there because the platforms weren't close enough, that was a bad judgement call by me.. but he didn't tech so I DJed to cover rising attack and DI behind.. so as soon as he rolled behind went at him at Baired.

3:05 - While he's on the ledge, I fade away Fair to cover any possible aerials from the ledge. Note where I am to cover this, you have to be precise for this to work. The fair missed because he didn't aerial but instead he just jumped from the ledge and wavelanded in place. Good call from him. I jabbed right away because again an aerial will most likely come from that point. I tried to Bair to cover the same options from the ledge, Bair works as just as well except you don't have to be as precise but I don't think my Bair hitbox came out, maybe I did it a bit too fast. I tried to Ftilt his shield but that was no good there.

3:10 - I got Naired for it again because I'm still in lag. I rolled inwards to avoid the other aerial with good timing. That's probably one of the only times rolling is good because they won't be able to follow up since they just started their aerial. So after that I jabbed again because I saw him jump and I wasn't far enough to do much else. I saw him DJ off-stage so I tried to Fair him.. but I think either my Fair didn't come out in-time or I didn't start it early enough.. so I got Naired again. So then since that miss I kinda panicked because I thought it was supposed to hit, I DJ and airdodge to avoid anything quickly lol.

3:14 - I think he whiffed a Bair where he thought I was going to be and that gave me a free grab, I pummel him a little bit, downthrow. I think I remember when I saw it this when I was playing the set, I didn't think I was gonna have enough time for Fair or bair so I decided to do drop upair through the platform just to be safe I hit him again.

3:19 - He landed close to the ledge in shield, I wasn't anywhere near him so I had to mix it up by doing a spaced bair and tried to DD with it to bait something OOS perhaps. That's what it means to mix your timings up, you can do a slow bair or DD first then bair, you know? I absolutely wanted to keep him there so I baired again but then while I was trying this he WD in and rolled inside. I tried to Ftilt him twice away after that, but that didn't result in anything good. That's already the 4th or 5th time this didn't work.. So that means Ftilt wasn't a good choice to hit someone's shield at all and it's a pattern I had.

3:20 - I tried to down-B because I didn't think anything else would've worked and also to counter a knee maybe but he countered that with Nair.. he then did another Nair while im in shield to gentleman but it didn't fully hit and that allowed me to escape a bit. I tried to Fair where he was because I had to finish him but he just rolled behind me, it also seemed like a decent option there. After that roll, I side-B him on reaction while he tried to grab because at that % usually Falcons do that.

3:24 - After the side-B I tried to hit him with a dropzone Fair because I thought he wasn't going to jump.. but even then I should've known that there wasn't enough stun to follow up with anything at that % and especially with his DI... so I kinda went for a crazy read. And then he thought I was gonna DJ in panic but I remained calm and didn't land in his knee so I Up-B him away.

3:29 - Accidental ledge jump but no big deal, he was too far to punish. I saw him run at me so I dropped uair, he powershielded and again I jab to punish anything OOS. I tried to combo into Fair but he had just enough time to DJ out of it. (The correct answer there was possibly wait just 1 second longer and punish the DJ with Uair) So since Fair missed I rolled away to avoid his Dair. I tried to Jab or downtilt to poke him but since Jab whiffed he knew I was going to downtilt and he rolled behind me and grab.

3:36 - After his upthrow he might of gone for a crazy setup but missed or misinputed something. I rolled inside again to gain the middle but he knew it and I was pressured with the dropzone uair which was blocked into Nair. Inside that point I wanted to grab him it failed so I down-B right away for another possible counter-attack.. again that's another pattern he realized.

3:41 - He continued his pressure with Nair to gentleman and I wasn't sure what to do next anymore since Ganon OOS sucks too. The first one, the last hit of gentleman whiffed or was spaced so I couldn't really punish him and it also confused me.. which allowed him to do another one and that put me off-stage. I think then he tried to fake me out from the edgeguarding and missed his utilt instead, that's fine. And then when i was on the platform, I tried to get down but I was still not sure what he was going to do so then he upthrew me, upair into knee... game. lol.
 

RaphaelRobo

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I'd appreciate it too. I find this really interesting, and it'll help me improve a lot. I try to think a lot when I play, but I need to have my technical skill tighter than it is at the moment, because I get distracted by my character not moving how I want him to. I can definitely think quickly enough to process all that during the required time, though.
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
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Actually he didn't aerial I don't think, he wanted to dash in for a grab but even then.. Jab covers both jump and dash grab. I'm done first match btw, it took a bit longer than I thought. lol. There's actually no reason for you to be in the air especially when you are that close to your opponent.. it's just that Falcon HAS to be to be air to counter-attack Ganon. Ganon doesn't need to be in this matchup. You only really need to aerial him when you are techchasing or to counter attack his aerial when you are far enough away from him because otherwise your attacks won't reach.. you have to be precise with every attack and understand why your attacks are good.

If anyone has more specific questions about the situations, I can try to break it down more as to why it's good or not.
 

Nujabes

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I can't do it all the time but if I somewhat predicted it already then it's easier to do it with reactions. My description was what 5 seconds? There's a lot of things you need to account for at that level lol.
Was there a point at which you knew you were at that lvl? Was there a eureka moment? Or something else?
 

Divinokage

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Was there a point at which you knew you were at that lvl? Was there a eureka moment? Or something else?
Not really, for me it was more about being confident in my skills after fighting every match-up lots and lots of times. I just understood some tools sucked in certain situations while some others are better... I always tried to fix my mistakes as much as I can and work with where I got hit all the time. Sometimes it was about being positioned badly, sometimes just throwing the wrong attack to counter the attack that was thrown, sometimes it was about whiffing a move while the opponent wasn't there can be a mistake too. I guess all that was a lot of trial and error, sometimes I would just take one move and see what I can do with it and what it can counter or how it gets owned, obviously lots of thoughts put into it too when I'm not playing.
 

Nujabes

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I have a group of buddies that i play with, i didn't touch tech at all for about a month and was just thinking of the game out side of playing... next time we got together and played i was 2 to 3 stocking them..

I guess what im trying to ask is, does or did(?) the majority of you improvement come from when your'e not playing the game. Because now that i look back i usually improve when i think of the game
'hypothetically'...idk why but, i cant learn from posts like #5927
 

Divinokage

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You kinda need everything yes.. they do say half of the training is in the mind. I've had that happen to me many times but luckily I was always fighting someone stronger than me, I went OOC A LOT too to try to improve. The post I made is pretty much the result of my training so it's very tough to break it down and it's probably possible to break it down even more though not sure if I can.
 

G. Vice

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Kage doesn't usually get over-analytical and go into explanation like this.

Usually he says something like "the warrior's heart leads you to victory"

I'm impressed.
 

Divinokage

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Kage doesn't usually get over-analytical and go into explanation like this.

Usually he says something like "the warrior's heart leads you to victory"

I'm impressed.
It hurts my mind to go into details like this which is why I try to keep it simple lol. It's not something I like to do often but I suppose I can contribute at times.
 

G. Vice

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It hurts my mind to go into details like this which is why I try to keep it simple lol. It's not something I like to do often but I suppose I can contribute at times.
I honestly don't think I can break down my thought process like that. What I do just seems right at the time I do it.
 

RaphaelRobo

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I can break down my thoughts like that, but I can't remember far enough back to remember what I thought during a game. If I had a video in front of me I could probably do it, but I doubt anyone would be able to learn anything from it anyway.

The way I learn from Kage's explanation is where he says stuff like "Falcon is going to do x, and the ways to counter that are with y and z", meaning that I now know how to respond to x if I predict my opponent is going to do it.
 

Divinokage

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Ya pretty much, your options are limited in a way depending on your position in between where you are and where your opponent is.. which is why now you can see how everything I can do has purpose.

That's also why I found funny back in 2007-08 when they said just spam moves and hope they run into it. lol.
 

RaphaelRobo

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If I look back at my videos from the last NCSU (November 26) all I was doing was throwing out moves and hoping they ran into them. I wasn't even good enough to spam the same move over and over again. I feel like I was so bad looking back at those. It must have worked out decently, though, given that I almost beat 2 PRed players in teams.
 

Divinokage

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Ugh.. if only I could teleport.

Back jump Fair all day right? Before it was something that I would hope they would run into.. as do everyone probably lol. Eventually, I learned the importance of never whiffing a move, if you do then you give an opportunity for your opponent to approach already.
 

RaphaelRobo

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I wish I could back jump Fair and they'd always run into it. It'd make my day a lot easier.

Kage, if you came down it could be a Ganon international. You need to go win some major fighting tournaments so you can earn the money to come down.
 

RaphaelRobo

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Evil is a matter of perspective. Ganon was never actually evil, the people at Nintendo just wanted you to think that.
 

RaphaelRobo

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The thing is, Ganondorf had a masterful plan that was going to make the world into a place where everyone could be treated fairly and equally, and people could live happily ever after. During the years Link was away, Sheik went around wreaking havoc on all the people of Hyrule. Ganondorf worked really hard to try to stop her and make the world a safe place for everyone. Then Link shows up, and before Ganondorf can talk to Link, Sheik gets to him and tells him Ganondorf was responsible for all the bad stuff that happened. Because Nintendo told us the story through Link's eyes, we were all supposed to believe Ganondorf was the bad guy, when it was actually Sheik the whole time.

I could go into a lot more detail on the behind the scenes Zelda timeline, but that would be a lot of work.
 

Эикельманн [РУС]

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lol that thing is in like 3 weeks.

i don't even know if i'll be able to make it, and i'm a hour and change away lmao.
if every ganondorf in NC doesn't attend, i'll have a temper tantrum.

i never get to come to NC. this is a once in a lifetime chance. CALL OFF WORK. FIND A RIDE. DO WHAT YOU MUST.

Same to Ace, Jim, and RR.

Would be nice if Chadddd showed up somehow, too.

NCSU: THE CONTINENTAL GANONDORF CONVENTION.
 

RaphaelRobo

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Is it bad that it took me a while to work out who RR was?

Also, I think Ace is working in Delaware at the moment.

Let's get enough Ganon's that we can have an all Ganon side event. Either double elimination or round robin. I'd say that means at least 3, because 2 would be an MM.
 

RaphaelRobo

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In order to explain why Ganon isn't evil and is actually a hero, I created this:

The Real History of Zelda

One day Ganondorf was making out with Hylia, like he usually does. Then, suddenly, she died. However, on the very last frame before she finished dying, Ganondorf thought to himself "Wouldn't it be nice if Hylia didn't die so we could keep making out? She's got such a nice body." And because Ganondorf was so powerful, Hylia was frozen in time, and Demise was created and sent back in time in order to save her life.
Demise had a very mischevious plan for how to save Hylia. First, he made some random girl his chosimba one. This girl was named Ghirahim. Then he made her meet this other guy, named Agahnim, and had him meet Ghirahim. They found out their names rhymed, so they fell in love. However, Demise doesn't like things that rhyme, so he killed Agahnim.
Ghirahim was really sad about this, because he was a girl, and girls get really emotional. So then Hylia sent Ghirahim back in time so he could save Agahnim, destroy demise, and free Hylia so she could die. But then demise imprisoned Ghirahim and made a clone of Ghirahim, who was a boy, and sent him forward in time so he could become the prince of devils or whatever he was. Then Demise made a clone of Agahnim, and sent him really far forward in time so he could give people a link to the past.
Hylia had to come up with a new plan now for how to destroy Demise, so she decided to crash an asteroid into the earth. Then she realized this would cause a nuclear winter, so instead decided to crash a much smaller asteroid into the place where demise was. Then she found some loser named link and installed a supercomputer in his brain. This gave him the power to fight really well and be really smart, so he went to go free Hylia.
Now at this point you're probably wondering how Hylia was doing all this when she was frozen in time. Because she's a goddess, her mind is really overweight, so it kind of spilled out of the frozen time bubble. Her body was still there, though. Anyway, Link fought a bunch of people, but they were no match for his supercomputer, because he was essentially using an Action Replay in real life. Anyway, he wasn't able to stop Hylia from dying, but he sent her really far back in time, and then she died and stuck her soul in the body of some girl.
Demise hadn't been able to stop Hylia from dying, so he was really sad about failing in his responsibility. He didn't want anyone to see him crying, so he imprisoned himself in a sword. He fought that guy with the AR head, and got beaten buy him.
He felt sorry for the AR guy, because he was a real loser, so gave him a hint about Ganondorf, the ultra powerful 3.5 edition Warlock who created Demise. However, this was misinterpreted as Demise having created Ganondorf. A long time later, Hylia's meteor crashed into the earth, and destroyed the sword where Demise was crying, even though he couldn't be crying there anymore because he was dead. Clearly Hylia's brain isn't working properly.
Because Demise was created by accident, Ganondorf didn't know anything about it, and was really sad when Hylia died. He decided to try to bring her back to life so he could continue to make out with her. Plus, she'd almost gotten the hang of wavedashing. He heard about this thing called the Triforce, which he could use to bring her back to life, so he could try to get all of this.
Ganondorf set his plan in motion. He was going to get the Triforce, bring Hylia back to life, make out with her for a few years, then make all of Hyrule a peaceful place where everyone could live happily ever after. However, there was an evil woman who hated the word love named "Impa". She told Zelda that Ganondorf was evil and trying to make the world a horrible place. Zelda told Link this. When Ganondorf finally set his plan in motion, Link went forward in time. During the time he was gone, Ganondorf tried really hard to make the world a nice place.
However, Impa became bigger and stronger and changed her name to Beelza, and trained Sheik to be like her. Sheik was brainwashed into being evil, and the two of them went around terrorizing Hyrule. Ganondorf was really depressed about Hylia still being dead, so a reaper was able to take control of his body. It morphed the surrounding region and made it twisted.
Link showed up and saw the world in this really terrible state. Beelza had been killed after defeating the Leo dungeon, so Sheik was the only one left. Sheik told Link that Ganondorf was responsible for everything, even though it was actually her. Link believed her, and went to go stop Ganondorf.
Now, any real hero would have fused with a bird to gain the power to fly, gotten Ganondorf out of his depression, and then defeated the reaper. However, Link wasn't a very good hero, so instead he killed Ganondorf. Then the reaper revealed his true form, because he didn't have a depressed person's body to hide in anymore, and Link killed him pretty easily. Because the reaper was actually weaker than a piece of grass and was only able to take control of Ganondorf because Ganondorf was too depressed to notice.
At this point the timeline split into three different pieces. One where Link kept being an adult, one where he went back to being a kid, and one where he was too lazy to kill Ganondorf/The Reaper and wanted to spend his time playing really boring campy video games that came after awesome games with wavedashing in them. In this timeline, Beelza didn't die, and her and Sheik recruited Groose, and imprisoned Ganondorf.
For the next few forevers, some brave heroes tried to revive Ganondorf. However, because the winners always write history, everyone thought Ganon was bad, even though he was only going to try to make the world better for everyone. Eventually, Ganondorf was revived. In order to make people not attack him, he used Magic to disguise himself as Link. He then finished a dungeon, and was offered a Red Suit or a Blue Suit. He chose the Red Suit.


I'll MM anyone who can name every non-Zelda reference in that story. By my count there are 9, but I could be missing a few, because there are a lot in there.
 

RaphaelRobo

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You got 0/9 References. Try Harder.

Do you have any idea how much work I put into coming up with things to reference so that story wasn't insanely boring? Here's a hint: not a lot.
 

-ACE-

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Location
The back country, GA
Lol, I'm soaking up rays in Hollywood, FL atm. Flying to philly tomorrow and riding back to Delaware to work for maybe 2-3 weeks. I could get laid off after (they haven't told me where I'm going next yet) and of I do I will be there.
 
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