Renzo
Smash Rookie
This thread is too good.
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How to Play Teams: A Breakdown of What it Takes to Win
- Thread starter The King
- Start date
marthmaster04
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2004
- Messages
- 852
Bookmarked, really informative stuff. I rarely play teams because my friend has no concept of how to be an effective player in teams. With some tips from experience he might be able to think right in teams.
thanks.
thanks.gnosis
Smash Lord
I've always preferred co-operative play in games, and Smash is no exception. And, as with all games, teams and singles are different beasts in Smash.
One of my smash friends beats another one consistently in singles, usually with stocks to spare. But I'd pick the second over the first any day; we simply work together better. While all teams have the same goal (to not see their characters clapping at the results screen), the first player and I are often hindrances to each other's shared goal just as much as our opponents are. He and I just get in each other's way (a frustration I notice a lot in beginning and half-hearted teammates, and one of the first hurdles met in improving in teams). The second and I actually help each other out and combine our efforts.
This difference in synergy is enough to make up the second's character disadvantage, who plays only Zelda, whereas the first goes Puff/Ganon in teams.
So I definitely agree that merely carrying over habits from singles isn't enough. It might help to overpower a lesser team, but there is a different set of habits and thought processes to develop if you want to evolve from two Smashers (that, as an aside, happen to be wearing the same colors) into a brutal and efficient 'team'.
And this topics has helped me towards that. Thank you
p.s. One bit of advice I have for getting over that 'getting in each other's way' hurdle, is to practice just 2v1. This is less complex, and allows players to adjust to thinking about and studying their team mate's style, learning when to help and when to back off. There are of course more things to learn for 2v2, but in watching the Idaho scene develop, I've noticed it can make a nice stepping stone.
p.p.s. Forgive my arrogance in seeming to think I had anything to add by posting this =/...
One of my smash friends beats another one consistently in singles, usually with stocks to spare. But I'd pick the second over the first any day; we simply work together better. While all teams have the same goal (to not see their characters clapping at the results screen), the first player and I are often hindrances to each other's shared goal just as much as our opponents are. He and I just get in each other's way (a frustration I notice a lot in beginning and half-hearted teammates, and one of the first hurdles met in improving in teams). The second and I actually help each other out and combine our efforts.
This difference in synergy is enough to make up the second's character disadvantage, who plays only Zelda, whereas the first goes Puff/Ganon in teams.
So I definitely agree that merely carrying over habits from singles isn't enough. It might help to overpower a lesser team, but there is a different set of habits and thought processes to develop if you want to evolve from two Smashers (that, as an aside, happen to be wearing the same colors) into a brutal and efficient 'team'.
And this topics has helped me towards that. Thank you
p.s. One bit of advice I have for getting over that 'getting in each other's way' hurdle, is to practice just 2v1. This is less complex, and allows players to adjust to thinking about and studying their team mate's style, learning when to help and when to back off. There are of course more things to learn for 2v2, but in watching the Idaho scene develop, I've noticed it can make a nice stepping stone.
p.p.s. Forgive my arrogance in seeming to think I had anything to add by posting this =/...
It's important to remember that your singles skills can be a big benefit to your doubles play. Being garbage at the game itself, even if you have good teamwork, is not going to win you tournaments. If the other team has two strong singles players on it, as long as they can keep it split up into two 1v1s then you're going to go down painfully.
Good teamwork isn't all it takes; you have to actually be good on your own merits, as well.
Good teamwork isn't all it takes; you have to actually be good on your own merits, as well.
Binx
Smash Master
This makes a very good point, also I think in teams its important to control the middle of the stage so that your team can decide who fights who. Basically the team that can capture the center of the stage can react more dynamically and can make sure that the character matchup is in your favor.
Also remember that in teams the tier list doesnt have the same accuracy, chain throws are much less effective and characters with good projectiles are too because they cant camp as much and you dont want to risk hitting your team mate too often.
h1roshi
Smash Hero
yeah, i liked this thread a lot. especially since me and my partner vericz have been doing pretty well in teams and trying to get better. but like vericz said, we do a lot of the stuff mentioned here. we know our roles, and we are comfortable with our roles. vericz is the aggressor because that is how he naturally plays, and i am the stock tank, because i play a lot more defensively. I know when to let him combo, and when to leave him alone. It helps a lot that we have been teaming for months now and going to 2-3 tournies a month. Playing with somebody so much, you end up learning synergies. For instance, if you have a falco on your team NEVER give up a recovery attempt. Whenever im knocked off the stage, I yell " shoot left/right" and vericz will try and shoot in the direction i am to give me the extra boost i need to recover. he sees me recovering and waits for my up+b so he can shoot me and i'll up+b again. We do this a couple times a game. It is extremely common at this point forhim to save me on command. Another instance is knowing when to save him. A lot of times I'll edgehog on the side where he's recovering from and as he up+b's or side+b's I drop down and uair him so that he can recover. We know how to split up our opponents and when to give back up support via projectiles or physical damage. It helps so much that we both have stunning projectiles. if I am in need of help and hes on the other side of the opponent, he can stop what hes doing and shoot really fast at my opponent, which gives me my chance to turn it around. Also, i know when to jump over him and assist with needles to create more openings. Sometimes, you need to physically get in there and help with a combo or break a combo with an actual attack other than a projectile. As far as 2v1's, if we can get a grab in, then we'll just do grab combos like he grabs and I infinite jab, or we do the grab reset combo ( where one person grabs and keeps hitting him and tell the opponent gets out, just to get grabbed by your partner standing on the other side). But, lets say vericz starts a combo with falco, I'm just going to sit back and watch, and charge needles, so when he needs me I am ready. I know when hes going to send the character my way and when i can get that KO fair or bair in. When my sheik goes to work, vericz knows when to come in to lenghten the combo. It's things like these that really add up and you really get to appreciate. Playing with the same person tournament after tournament will reveal a lot about each other. There is one other aspect, that i don't believe has been mentioned.
COMMUNICATION: Now, I understand 99% of teams just instinctively play and know what to do, or at least, instinctively react in certain situations. But communication can help a lot. An example is how i said earlier that i will yell to vericz which side to shoot and he immediately knows that I am dieing and need assistance IMMEDIATELY. For the most part, your teammates will be aware of you, and will have a good chance of knowing you need help whether you tell them or not. But, there are a lot of instances where they are concentrated on something else. If you use communication, it's like a quick reminder that you are in TEAMS match and not singles. Simple stuff like, "help, help", or "up smash" can help a lot. With the "up smash" phrase I am referring to when you have an opponent in a grab and are waiting for said upsmash. Your opponent might no be aware of this and you end up wasting the opportunity. By simply relaying this information, your partner can become aware and take advantage of the opening you have created. Ofcourse, all of this stuff is situational, but it is stuff I have personally experienced or have seen time and time again.
KEEPING YOUR COOL: DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES GET MAD AT YOUR PARTNER!!1
Yes, you will mess up, and yes, your partner will mess up. It might even lead to your death. You can't let stuff like that get to you. He didn't mean to do it and you can't tell yourself "man, we would be winning if he didn't do that". Mistakes happen, but it is important to keep with your game plan. You have to remember, the chances of having a big comeback, is much more possible in teams then in singles, since you have a person to back you up and there are so many available opening to rack up big damage fast. Also, with the aid of your partner, you can have some quick and dirty gimps fairly easily.
Well, that is all for now i guess, I know my name isn't even close to as respected as King's or Wobbles, but I believe this is still helpful information that is definitely applicable to any team...peace
-hiroshi
COMMUNICATION: Now, I understand 99% of teams just instinctively play and know what to do, or at least, instinctively react in certain situations. But communication can help a lot. An example is how i said earlier that i will yell to vericz which side to shoot and he immediately knows that I am dieing and need assistance IMMEDIATELY. For the most part, your teammates will be aware of you, and will have a good chance of knowing you need help whether you tell them or not. But, there are a lot of instances where they are concentrated on something else. If you use communication, it's like a quick reminder that you are in TEAMS match and not singles. Simple stuff like, "help, help", or "up smash" can help a lot. With the "up smash" phrase I am referring to when you have an opponent in a grab and are waiting for said upsmash. Your opponent might no be aware of this and you end up wasting the opportunity. By simply relaying this information, your partner can become aware and take advantage of the opening you have created. Ofcourse, all of this stuff is situational, but it is stuff I have personally experienced or have seen time and time again.
KEEPING YOUR COOL: DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES GET MAD AT YOUR PARTNER!!1
Yes, you will mess up, and yes, your partner will mess up. It might even lead to your death. You can't let stuff like that get to you. He didn't mean to do it and you can't tell yourself "man, we would be winning if he didn't do that". Mistakes happen, but it is important to keep with your game plan. You have to remember, the chances of having a big comeback, is much more possible in teams then in singles, since you have a person to back you up and there are so many available opening to rack up big damage fast. Also, with the aid of your partner, you can have some quick and dirty gimps fairly easily.
Well, that is all for now i guess, I know my name isn't even close to as respected as King's or Wobbles, but I believe this is still helpful information that is definitely applicable to any team...peace
-hiroshi
vericz
Smash Champion
Very detailed, Most people play and don't communicate at all but like you said a simple phrase such as "Up-smash!" can really help in certain situations.
Being mad at your own partner leads to less team work and will most likely lead to your team going down. People make mistakes but it's easier to say "don't worry about it just come back and help" instead of yelling "WTF, why did you just kill me!!11!!1" It's a team and your partner NEVER purposely kills you, learn to forget those little mistakes and keep your head in the game.
Find a partner you are comfortable with and know their playstyle. Your partner should also know yours. It's easy when you are doing something and your partner knows when not to get involved and also easy if your partner knows whether a certain situation can cause you to lose a stock. Knowledge of your partners game helps save stocks as well as take stocks away from the other team.
Being mad at your own partner leads to less team work and will most likely lead to your team going down. People make mistakes but it's easier to say "don't worry about it just come back and help" instead of yelling "WTF, why did you just kill me!!11!!1" It's a team and your partner NEVER purposely kills you, learn to forget those little mistakes and keep your head in the game.
Find a partner you are comfortable with and know their playstyle. Your partner should also know yours. It's easy when you are doing something and your partner knows when not to get involved and also easy if your partner knows whether a certain situation can cause you to lose a stock. Knowledge of your partners game helps save stocks as well as take stocks away from the other team.
Binx
Smash Master
Good stuff Hiroshi, sounds like you guys are gonna be rocking the upper tier team brackets soon.
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
Is it possible to be an aggressive stock tank? Because when I think about it that seems to be my role in teams. I almost always hold stock for the longest and have more kills than my partner at the end of the match. Sometimes when I get 6 or 7 kills in teams matches I feel like I'm playing greedy and not letting my partner do anything. I know that's not the case though. But I can't help but feel like that. EDIT: Actually, thinking over it some more, I realized that I seek out kills when an opponent is at high percentage, off-stage, or vulnerable in any other way. Much like a vulture.
Also, I've noticed that I play very well in teams with characters that I get 3 or 4-stocked with in singles. Especially Mario. I use four attacks with Mario in teams: bthrow, nair, bair, and dsmash. I just abuse the good properties of these moves, like throwing out nairs as a shield because of the long attack time. Or the quickness of the dsmash and bair. It's actually good that Mario has very short range because I don't have to worry about obstructing my partner at all.
Also, I've noticed that I play very well in teams with characters that I get 3 or 4-stocked with in singles. Especially Mario. I use four attacks with Mario in teams: bthrow, nair, bair, and dsmash. I just abuse the good properties of these moves, like throwing out nairs as a shield because of the long attack time. Or the quickness of the dsmash and bair. It's actually good that Mario has very short range because I don't have to worry about obstructing my partner at all.
kenny10
Smash Journeyman
The reason most teams screw up and fail is because they get mad at each other or they have no coordination with their teammate. Teams like this you see the players focusing on themselves too much and then get surprised when they KO their partner. This would then lead to arguments probably and end up in the team just getting pwned.
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
I like going out of my way to save my partner. Especially when I die in the process. I don't know why, but it just feels so awesome. I only do it when I'm at super-high percentages though.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
I try to save my partner sometimes, but I really don't know what I can do to save him. I play Marth so my options are already limited to being close to the stage. My parner plays Jigglypuff so I shouldn't have to save him often, but every now and then he gets hit by a spike or something and just barely misses the stage. I'm right there and I want to go out and uair him, but with both opponents left on the stage I have a very hard time making it back. Lately I've been just letting him die and killing the one that was edgeguarding him so that when he comes back we can double team the remainding partner with a grab rest or something. I just feel kinda bad about my partner saving me without me being able to return the favor.
On a lighter note. I think our team is turning out quite nicely, although a lot of the teams we play against are annoyed with our style (who could blame them, 90% of our kills are from rests and edgeguarding). I still can't pinpoint our individual roles though, but I have a general idea. Jiggs is the stock tank on our team, but that role is stage dependant (on smaller stages I become the stock tank because Jiggs gets killed quicker than I do). Jiggs is the primary edgeguarder of our team, which is suprising because I play a very edgeguarding dependant Marth, but it works out because normally I can just fend off the opponent's partner. My role is to ambush which ever opponent I think won't expect a hit by abusing my range. We tend to focus on seperating the opponents with us in the middle (this is pretty easy because most teams like to try to sandwich us anyway) so that switching between our targets is easier and because it makes edgeguarding much simpler. If they're already on opposite sides of the stage
then it will be easier to keep them away from their partner that's being edgeguarded.
I agree that communication is very important throughout the match, but I don't think it's the most important thing. I think the most important aspect of team play is knowing your partner's playstyle. It allows for quicker communication because you already have a general idea of what your partner is doing, so many times you'll be able to help him perfectly without him saying a word. I believe it's this kind of "chemistry" between teamates that makes teams successful.
On a lighter note. I think our team is turning out quite nicely, although a lot of the teams we play against are annoyed with our style (who could blame them, 90% of our kills are from rests and edgeguarding). I still can't pinpoint our individual roles though, but I have a general idea. Jiggs is the stock tank on our team, but that role is stage dependant (on smaller stages I become the stock tank because Jiggs gets killed quicker than I do). Jiggs is the primary edgeguarder of our team, which is suprising because I play a very edgeguarding dependant Marth, but it works out because normally I can just fend off the opponent's partner. My role is to ambush which ever opponent I think won't expect a hit by abusing my range. We tend to focus on seperating the opponents with us in the middle (this is pretty easy because most teams like to try to sandwich us anyway) so that switching between our targets is easier and because it makes edgeguarding much simpler. If they're already on opposite sides of the stage
then it will be easier to keep them away from their partner that's being edgeguarded.
I agree that communication is very important throughout the match, but I don't think it's the most important thing. I think the most important aspect of team play is knowing your partner's playstyle. It allows for quicker communication because you already have a general idea of what your partner is doing, so many times you'll be able to help him perfectly without him saying a word. I believe it's this kind of "chemistry" between teamates that makes teams successful.
XIF
Smash Master
i'd like to note dark sonic's team is a perfect example of 2 players becoming 10 times better than normal when they play teams. raistlin has an amazing sixth sense for rest opportunities. Which represents the knowing your partner argument very nicely.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
^^Yeah, but it still suprises me sometimes. Yesterday we got an up throw rest. I was chainthrowing fox and Raistlin rested him out of it.
XIF is just too good.
Green Mario is......Green Mario.
XIF is just too good.
Green Mario is......Green Mario.
h1roshi
Smash Hero
or, instead of worrying about the stuff in my previous post, you can just get a much better player in general as your partner, and take 1st in teams. atleast thats what my teammate did last saturday...peace
-hiroshi
-hiroshi
brawlpro
Smash Master
good stuff h1roshi and king, great help.
Silent Wolf
...
That's exactly what me and DJ Combo think.
We noticed this at first when Sastopher and VarietyBarrage were such a challenge in teams.
Then after several other teams were much harder than others. Teams we've faced like Hitsugaya and Forward, and Mikey Lenetia and Montross are good examples. Too good of a team.
Also weren't Isai and Mew2King taken out by Xelic and Caveman at FC? Peach and Fox.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
i'm sorry hiroshi..anyways that's why i decided that my crew will do team picks based on crew battle rankings..so 1 and 2 pair up, 3 and 4, etc. Gonna reset them once in a while hopefully..anyways no worries..just have fun at the game
h1roshi
Smash Hero
thanks gah,
and to kinightpraetr, yeah it kinda sucked watching my teammate **** and get 1st place the 1st time he teamed with his partner, yet we could never do that. it was like, WTF?!?!?...peace
EDIT: wait, silent wolf, you live in tampa?
-hiroshi
pockyD
Smash Legend
sounds like he made the right move then
sometimes you just have to make a switch when your current team isn't working out instead of wasting time trying to build up something that's just not there
sometimes you just have to make a switch when your current team isn't working out instead of wasting time trying to build up something that's just not there
h1roshi
Smash Hero
well, the other guy he teamed with is our BEST crew member, one of the most technical foxes in Fl. hes really fvcking good. atleast he left me for one of our own crewmates instead of some random other person...peace
-hiroshi
vericz
Smash Champion
uuaa is too good. I never said I wasn't going to team with you again, it's just anytime I have a chance to team with him I will. We had some good teamwork and I did use some of the stuff I learned from you.
g-regulate
Smash Hero
teamwork is the best. team wobbles is fun too
h1roshi
Smash Hero
i'm bumping this cause it's rare to see good threads in here. >.>
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Hey King, I have a question... I main fox (and falco,marth but that not important) but i find that my fox and my falco die too easily in teams, especially since my teamate is so aggressive that even if my style is somewhat aggressive i have to be the tank because of his style. My sheik (up there with my other characters) as well as my marth seem to do better because i live longer, and because i find sheiks mobility in the air better than foxes, and the recovery being better helps a lot. Earlier it was said to go with the comfortable thing, but does that apply to characters. I am comfortable with fox, falco, sheik, AND marth, yet in singles tournies i find myself picking fox the most because im most comfortable playing him in a serious situation. So should i use sheik in doubles over fox? And a character thing for teams would be nice, such as who does well in teams together, what match-ups change in doubles (such as fox vs marth in singles is even, but in doubles would it make a difference?) and things like that. Thanks ahead of time and great thread
Peace
Peace
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
^^ I'd like to reiterate that teams is different from singles. The same styles (and characters) that you used in singles may not work so well in teams. If you find that your Shiek and Marth are doing better in teams then try using them for a while. If you find that it's more comfortable than playing Fox and Falco then go for it. Basically all of the high tiers are interchangeable when it comes to teams, but as you go lower it gets a little more picky. For instance, your partner is playing Jigglypuff. I'm not so sure that Peach would be as effective of a teammate as Marth or Shiek for this team. Also try to avoid space animal teams unless you and you're partner are really comfortable with it. Teams tend to do better when you have one aggressor and one life bank.
I think that matchups change in teams, but not by that much. Marth vs Fox I'd say tips towards Fox in teams because Marth has much less room to properly space himself while Fox's spacing isn't really impacted. I really think that matchups dependant on spacing are the ones most affected, but it's not that serious. Don't forget that you've got a partner so you guys can switch if you're having trouble against your particular opponent.
I think that matchups change in teams, but not by that much. Marth vs Fox I'd say tips towards Fox in teams because Marth has much less room to properly space himself while Fox's spacing isn't really impacted. I really think that matchups dependant on spacing are the ones most affected, but it's not that serious. Don't forget that you've got a partner so you guys can switch if you're having trouble against your particular opponent.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Thanks. I just thought it was funny because my partners top are falco, fox and marth and so are mine. Falco being his very top and fox is my top, yet we both dont like using them. And though your explanation of fox having advantage in teams makes sense, for some reason my partners seems to easily like back throw them or something, and then edgeguard with marth. Its truthfully very funny, because if the 2 aggressive players are fighting and then the 2 tanks are fighting, the tanks get NOTHING done, and they just keep trying to mindgame each other so as not to make a mistake, by the time we deal 70% the other people have both already lost 2 stock O.o
=)
=)
marthmaster04
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2004
- Messages
- 852
Well its like he said, you have to really forget everything you think you know. Teams is an entirely different affair. Approaches, retreat, helping your partner. Your just not playing effective teams. Sounds to me like your trying to play two seperate 1v1's. Have your partner read and try to understand this thread.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Lol. Exactly. We are both excellent in 1v1 close quarter things, as well as edgeguarding. So we start with splitting into 1v1's and then im trying to get him to find the right time to run from his match and help me out, and vice versa. And if u have good 1v1 players, couldnt u have a strategy of splitting it up, and then when needed, go help your partner. When i watched Ken and isai, it seems they do that, but they also know when to go help their teamate.
Peace
Peace
Rapid_Assassin
Smash Master
Anyone else have a similar experience to this in team games? I've had partners in teams that I've worked well enough with that we could beat a team of 2 people that neither of us could beat individually. I've also had partners who were about as good at singles as the good team partners who were extremely bad when teamed with me. They might not necessarily suck in teams, just be bad for me..
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Hmm, if i teamed more maybe. I know what ur talking about though.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Totally had that experience with me and my partner Raistling. We normally do as good, if not better, in teams than we do in singles. Playing teams is also making our singles play increase at a very suprising rate.
SirroMinus1
SiNiStEr MiNiStEr
as someone once said move the c-stick side to side and hope for a kill
Rapid_Assassin
Smash Master
Well, you wouldn't want to kill your partner that way...
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I've been killed that way b4 XD
brawlpro
Smash Master
so have i drugged..so have i...
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Lol bp XD Answer your aim / pm box plz??? And on a more on topic thing... Where is King?!?!?!?! He was the one who made the freaking thread.
Zone
Smash Champion
Don't get Tunnel Vision!!!!
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
What?
Peace
Peace