How to deal with a rolling opponent.

[Dark.Pch]

I been hearing a lot of people go on about players rolling a lot and losing to it. They find it annoying and can't seem to deal with it. So I am here to tell you exactly how to deal with it. No matter what character you are or what character your opponent is. I play rollers all the time. And I go on "For Glory" a lot to practice punishing rolls on point since a lot of people love to roll there. And I rarely lose to these players. The same results can happen to you after this.

First let us understand why people roll. People roll cause they are afraid of getting counter attacked after a wiffed attack or a blocked one. They don't know what to do so they panic and wanna get away from you. Sometimes people just wanna get an attack in no matter what and will just try to roll behind you to get a hit off. This also applies when you go near the opponent. They get scared and just wanna roll away from you. They have no gameplan, don't know how to approach, bait, have good movement, adaption, etc. They do stuff and hope for the best. Basically, they are relying on luck, and just throw out moves. And if it fails, they roll hoping to get away and reset position or get behind you thinking you will counter attack them for it, leaving you open for a hit. Now that we know why people roll, lets focus how to deal with it.

1. How to punish rolls.
Your opponent has 2 methods of rolling. One type of rolling is to get away from you when your approach them or they wiff an attack. The other type of rolling is when you go near the opponent and they wanna get behind you for an attack at the rear. Take a loot at this drawn example below.

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In the first drawing, the opponent attacked you but the attacked wiff. Now the most common thing that would happen is that the opponent would roll back as you try to punish them as you see in the second drawing. Now the second drawing is the most important thing here. This is as I stated, the reason people roll. Cause they are afraid of getting hit for a mistake. So they wanna get out of there. If you try to attack them each time this happens, you will get no where. This also tells your opponent that this is ok to do. Since you tried to swing and missed. You wont be getting anywhere and in time, will leave yourself open for hits. Rollers will then gain a terrible habit of just rolling and thinking they can do this to anyone and be ok. Which you are about to see how a smart players baits that habit and punishes them for it.

So from that picture you noticed that each time he wiffs an attack, he loves to roll away. Ok............

​

​

Now the situation comes up again, your opponent wiffs an attack. he tries to roll back. But this time you was ready. So instead of aiming where he WAS, You aimed where he was GONNA BE. Knowing the distance and timing of the roll is something you need to take account for said character. You release your attack right where they are so they move into the active hit box of your attack. or after the roll, they are open for a few frames before they can block or roll again. And that's when your attack will connect.

Now for the second kind of rolling. Straight fear, they will roll behind you when you get near them. Wether you attack them or now. They will roll thinking you will try to attack/grab them. And wanna get behind for a punish.

​

You go near your opponent and he panics. He Tries to roll behind you and you jump back and throw out an attack that he rolls right into. This is how you deal with people who wanna roll behind you to an attack/grab. Time your moves and know the distance of the enemies roll. That way you can position yourself well and have an attack they roll into.

Now there is one more rolling method here. Mutiple roll gimmick. Lets say you follow my tips thus far, and you try to swing where they are gonna be. But they decide to roll yet again and you missed. Now you are stuck in a rut and don't know how to deal with this. Pretty sure you seen this with characters such as lil mac. Well here is what you do.

​

In this picture you ran to where he was gonna be after an attack wiffed. But you knew he would roll again. So you did not stop and kept chasing him in that direction. And he rolls once more and you are now close enough to throw out an attack that you can hit him with out the roll. or have him roll into it.

2. How to spot a certain rolling habit
What you want to do is go near your opponent and space move, while not trying to hit them where they are. If they roll into your attack, that lets you know they have the habit of trying to get behind you for a punish. if they roll away that lets you know its straight fear and they are afraid of getting hit. You also don't have to swing at all. You can use good movement and go in and out. To keep your opponent guessing and see/bait reactions. Give up hits cause your opponent will think you are trying to nail an attack. And you get a good idea on what they do.

3. Rolling them to the ledge.
If the player is an evasive roller, they will roll towards the ledge. Let them. Just follow them while being safe. And pin them near the ledge. Now they have lil space to evade. The only rolling option they have is to roll towards you. And you already know how to deal with that now. Just space moves and keep them near the ledge if they try to force their way out by rolling towards you or attacking. That terrible habit of theirs just made things so much easier for you. Now your guess on what they will do are even better.

4. How to practice this alone
You can go to training mode and set the computer to evade. The CPU will evade each time you go near them or try to swing. You can use this to practice punishing rolls on w/e character you want. Good way to know the distance and how to punish with said attack. If the CPU is near the ledge, they would mostly likely roll towards you when you go near them. So practice punishing that with a run back grab, dash attack, air attack, pivot attacks/grabs.

5. Try it on a human once again in Glory mode.
Glory mode is filled with a lot of players who love to roll to no end. You can use this to practice all of this and see how good you are at figuring out the pattern of their evasions. And apply the proper punish.

6. Random factor.
The random factor is something I came up with. It's checking your opponent out after a few punishes to see if they learned they lesson. So Give up the punish at a safe distance and see if they will roll again in this set pattern you noticed and punished a few times. If they do something different, that lets you know you have to look out for it. And play based on that, while keeping in mind about the rolling habit. If they do they same thing yet again, this lets you know they have not learned their lesson at all. They are just hoping for the best and have no clue what to do vs you. So just keep doing what you were doing till you win. Every few punishes in a match, just check for the random factor.

Well, that's about it. I think this guide will help you get better at punishing these habits. Any questions about this or concerns, let me know and I'll answer them. if you can keep up with me for more smash content and tips you can follow me on twitter or on here. Thanks in advance for those that decided to follow and hope this help tons.

www.twitter.com/Dark_Pch

 

[Berserker.]

I 100% agree with everything you said... except

4. How to practice this alone
You can go to training mode and set the computer to evade. The CPU will evade each time you go near them or try to swing. You can use this to practice punishing rolls on w/e character you want. Good way to know the distance and how to punish with said attack. If the CPU is near the ledge, they would mostly likely roll towards you when you go near them. So practice punishing that with a run back grab, dash attack, air attack, pivot attacks/grabs.

I checked training mode but there's no option to make them evade. It's stop-walk-run-jump-attack

But then again, level 9 CPU's roll a lot also

Oh wait, they evade when you set them in run right?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Yea, put the CPU to run

 

[M15t3R E]

This is informative for new players and for veterans of the series alike because people tend to forget that the biggest part of the game is understanding your opponent as much as you understand your own character and their options. I admit I have had some trouble with people excessively rolling in For Glory mode. From now on, I'll pretend to approach opponents in order to gain an understanding of their rolling habits. It was a good read, thanks!

 

[<π]

Thanks drk.pch

. Finally someone with a real competitive mindset.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Fantastic post. It sounds obvious on paper, but lots of newcomers to fighting games in general tend to forget or not know to actually look at the opponent and search out their habits, especially in the heat of battle.

 

[Dark.Pch]

It all takes time and practice. nothing is really done over nite.

 

[Nammy12]

Is it possible to punish rolls with a grab or dash grab?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Yea, it is. Just know the distance of the opponents roll and time the grab. or if they rolls towards you, wait for it then grab them.

 

[RanserSSF4]

i had a problem with the rolling at first, but i quickly adapted to it and punished them almost everytime. one of the best ways i've punished them is using pivot tilts, pivot smashes, and Up-B (Comes in very handy for those situations). been doing this a lot with boswer (my main) and i barely lost most matches (except most of his bad MU). The ONLY times i couldn't punish rolls is mostly because of horrendous laggy matches, but outside of that, it's not a big issue for me and i do agree with your post @ Dark.Pch

 

[Shaya]

Could you take the font color out of your post / use the option in the settings for having a default font colour instead?
Super highlight the entire post brothers required for people with lighter forum themes :>

Thanks for the write up though Pictures definitely help the explanations.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Could you take the font color out of your post / use the option in the settings for having a default font colour instead?
Super highlight the entire post brothers required for people with lighter forum themes :>

Thanks for the write up though Pictures definitely help the explanations.

The text on the post is white, so I am not sure what you are talking about.

 

[SuaveChaser]

I don't think rolls will be as much of a issue with better controls.

 

[Tythaeus]

Great tips! I had problems with a rolling villager the other day. I'll surely try these out!

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Great post Dark.

Part of the issue with rolls is that you need to wait for the roll, and the second you see it, you react and punish. Even with one frame of input lag, punishing a roll will be difficult. This is why rolls are infinitely easier to punish in a real life setting than online. I suspect this is the major reason people complain so much about rollers, most of these matches are online with 1 to 5 frames of input lag.

And yes, you all have input lag online, even if you deny it .I've played probably 500 hundred matches online ,and I have a ridiculous fast connection (I can download a movie in 20 minutes) and I have at least one frame of input lag in for glory, and for some opponents I can really feel it up to 5 frames.

With input lag, you can't rely on reaction at all to punish rolls, and have to initiate your punish before their roll is inputted. Not the case with real life matches though, where you can punish if you just have fast reaction.

I suspect the other half of rolling complainers are due to difficulty in proper spacing on 3ds analog stick. I guarantee you if you played only Gamecube controller offline matches, rolls would seem like the most punishable action in the game. Heck, i find it scarier to punish a charged smash than a roll. What you have to keep in mind about rolls is that they should only be used as a mix up because you have zero chance to hit an opponent while you are rolling, but if they read you they can destroy you for it.

 

[Shaya]

The text on the post is white, so I am not sure what you are talking about.

I'm telling you that your white font color on my light-themed smashboards skin (i.e. white background) doesn't work too well

 

[Berserker.]

Say, what if rolling with a character is much faster than his or her or it's dash or run? Wouldn't rolling work since it's practically faster for moving away? Oh and the enemy is faster than you in terms of movement and mobility?

Just relaying a message here

 

[Dark.Pch]

Say, what if rolling with a character is much faster than his or her or it's dash or run? Wouldn't rolling work since it's practically faster for moving away? Oh and the enemy is faster than you in terms of movement and mobility?

Just relaying a message here

I really don't understand what you are asking.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I really don't understand what you are asking.

I think what he's asking is are there any characters that run so slowly it's actually faster to roll everywhere?

 

[Berserker.]

I think what he's asking is are there any characters that run so slowly it's actually faster to roll everywhere?

Yeah, basically that

 

[Ffamran]

I think what he's asking is are there any characters that run so slowly it's actually faster to roll everywhere?

/ and ? Whoops, wrong games.

I don't know, perhaps ? You could abuse his Wizard's Foot, though, for mobility if you really needed to move like a beast with him. Ganondorf's more of a punish, counter, and hold-your-ground sort of character compared to say, or who are more pressure characters where momentum counts.

/? I know they have slow running and walking speeds, but they're not horribly slow, I think...

 

[Gamer807]

Thanks for this you saved me from playing just one character the entire time on For Glory (Sonic is good for dealing with rollers)

 

[Gamer807]

I don't think rolls will be as much of a issue with better controls.

We can only hope...

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think what he's asking is are there any characters that run so slowly it's actually faster to roll everywhere?

Slow characters usually have slow rolls like DDD, Ganon for example.

I don't know about the rest. All I know is once I see someone who things they can roll all over the place I just bait it out of them and punish.

 

[Ffamran]

Slow characters usually have slow rolls like DDD, Ganon for example.

I don't know about the rest. All I know is once I see someone who things they can roll all over the place I just bait it out of them and punish.

I'm kind of wishing for a perfect roll like in Devil May Cry 4. Nero had a move called Table Hopper that replaced his regular roll only if it's used at just the right frame. It's an incredibly fast dodge that leaves little ending lag. The player's performing multiple Tabler Hoppers in case you're wondering if Table Hopper is a giant loopy dodge. The first set is made up of three followed by a taunt. The second is only three: one to dodge and two to position for a Streak, the dash attack.

This will probably be never be considered since input lag and connection issues will make it almost impossible to use, but in a regular, local fight, then perhaps it could exist. So, what are the changes? A perfect roll will leave no ending lag, but moves a short distance and must be timed correctly or else a regular roll happens or you get hit. It also has less I-frames and must be repeated for each attack if somehow the player is caught in a combo. A regular roll is punishable, but moves further and can be used whenever. Also, a regular roll benefits from a "longer" set of I-frames so in theory it could evade a combo with one roll, but since you can just follow the roller, it's punishable. Just Flame Choke that er... opponent.

This would mean that Little Mac's regular roll would be substantially slower while his perfect roll becomes those pivots, weaves, and bobs which leads to an issue with side-stepping... No one (that I know of) is complaining about them since people (panic) roll more often than (panic) side-step.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

/? I know they have slow running and walking speeds, but they're not horribly slow, I think...

Robin's tied with Ganondorf for second slowest run speed actually.

 

[Pazzo.]

Great guide. I love using Robin's D-Smash to punish rolls, as it has a deceptively encasing range (from the ground-thunder).

I've won quite a few matches based on that alone.

 

[Terotrous]

Honestly, the whole topic can really be boiled down to:

"If they try to roll away, dash after them"
"If they try to roll behind, use DSmash"


One issue that the OP has is that it assumes all rolls are bad choices, when in reality there are many smart times to roll. You should definitely mix it up with rolls simply to put that option in your opponent's head, akin to a wakeup DP in fighting games. You want them to attempt to run after you after you whiff an attack, because then you could stick out another attack and it would hit. If you never rolled, they wouldn't expect the roll and thus they would not attempt to punish the non-existent roll. Roll is also a legitimate punish if timed properly against slow attacks.

I'm kind of wishing for a perfect roll like in Devil May Cry 4.

You already have a functionally similar option in Perfect Shield. Input is different, but it has the same "perfect timing = no delay" application. Of course, it doesn't beat grabs, but then it would be too OP.

 

[SwoodGrommet]

Just want to say thanks for this guide; it definitely helped me win some matches that I probably would have lost before

 

[JamesUK7]

Very useful post! Thanks a lot!

 

[TTTTTsd]

This thread is the perfect guide to solving this "rolling" problem. It outlines one really important factor: There's always a pattern. The minute you find it and punish it, that's when you can go in. If the opposing player changes it up it can get hard but, this guide definitely serves as the perfect solution to linear annoying rollers.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Nice guide. I've personally been doing this since I started playing online. Punished with so many tipper F-smashes. Lol

 

[Dark.Pch]

Honestly, the whole topic can really be boiled down to:

"If they try to roll away, dash after them"
"If they try to roll behind, use DSmash"


One issue that the OP has is that it assumes all rolls are bad choices, when in reality there are many smart times to roll. You should definitely mix it up with rolls simply to put that option in your opponent's head, akin to a wakeup DP in fighting games. You want them to attempt to run after you after you whiff an attack, because then you could stick out another attack and it would hit. If you never rolled, they wouldn't expect the roll and thus they would not attempt to punish the non-existent roll. Roll is also a legitimate punish if timed properly against slow attacks.



You already have a functionally similar option in Perfect Shield. Input is different, but it has the same "perfect timing = no delay" application. Of course, it doesn't beat grabs, but then it would be too OP.

I'm not sure how this assumes rolls are bad. So far everyone has understood in here that this is about people who have a horrible rolling habit. Rolling, side stepping, blocking is not bad. If you do it all the time and easy to tell when it will happen in, then you will get punished for it. A lot of players love to do this out of every situation and stead of mixing up their defense/evasion. And people don't know how to respond to that. This thread served that purpose.

Top players roll as well. But to a point where its hella predictable. Big difference to what is being talked about here.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm not sure how this assumes rolls are bad. So far everyone has understood in here that this is about people who have a horrible rolling habit. Rolling, side stepping, blocking is not bad. If you do it all the time and easy to tell when it will happen in, then you will get punished for it. A lot of players love to do this out of every situation and stead of mixing up their defense/evasion. And people don't know how to respond to that. This thread served that purpose.

Well it's comments like this that give that impression:

This is as I stated, the reason people roll. Cause they are afraid of getting hit for a mistake.

Now for the second kind of rolling. Straight fear

This generally implies that rolls are just a panic move that you really shouldn't be using, which they aren't. Rolls are a powerful defensive option that force the opponent to make reads with their offense. Of course, you don't want to do the same thing every time, or else the read is very easy to make, and someone who rolls constantly is so ludicrously simple to punish that I'm sceptical that anyone is really having trouble beating it. I'm pretty sure most of the people who are getting frustrated by rolls are those who are facing people who roll intelligently and they don't like the fact that the opponent's multiple defensive options force them to guess even in a situation where they have advantage (like after the opponent whiffs a poke).

In general, if you want to do better against people who roll intelligently, you need to start looking at things like option coverage. There are a number of forward moving attacks that will hit if the opponent stands still, or if they roll backwards, allowing you to land the hit without making that read. Alternatively, you should look into safe offensive options where even if you guess wrong you're still relatively safe afterwards.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I stated why people roll and all. but I thought that thread title would give away its mainly with people who just roll too much out of everything. Beginner/average level of play, players will do this a lot. And these are the type of players people are getting annoyed and losing too. Guess I should have made that more clear for the starters.

 

[PadWarrior]

How wonder often lip biz kit keeps rolling

 

[Overmaster]

I'm a roll spammer. If anyone needs to practice roll punishing, I'm happy to help. It'll break me of my habit and be good for the both of us! Ha!

 

[One Tilt]

Great guide. I love using Robin's D-Smash to punish rolls, as it has a deceptively encasing range (from the ground-thunder).

I've won quite a few matches based on that alone.

Personally, I find Robin's downsmash to be a bit too risky unless they mis-space a roll towards you from the get-go. Failing that, a dtilt or ftilt are the safest punishes to rolls toward you, while arcfire, any thunder, or the occasional dash attack/SH Nair/Fair can punish a predicted back roll.

The OP makes some great points, but I have my own two cents to toss into the ring.

1. Focus on your movement, or stop it altogether. This is the most straightforward answer to 'aggressive' sorts who unsafely roll toward you. By rolling, they lose a lot of options in their approach, and you're guaranteed to have frame advantage on the first strike... but only if you don't do something to limit your own options. The easiest way to cripple yourself is honestly to move too much. There's no rush, and there's no reason to follow a foe who will come to you whilst conveniently neglecting to attack prior to a roll, so focus on your spacing and timing-- the person who's moving will always have a worse sense of their spacing than the one who's rolling, as rolling is a fixed-increment movement, while standing still entirely grants even further control than rolling. Force the pace of the game-- if strictly regulating my movement could phase intermediate skill wavedash spammers in melee, then punishing smash 4 rolls can work in a similar fashion. This is, of course, easier on a character with good tilts and poke ranges, but most characters do still have moves that specifically fill this niche... which brings me to the next point.
   
2. Focus on low-lag responses. Just as stopping your movement handles the spacing problem against roll spam, low lag attacks (ideally those with decent knockback or combo potential) can eliminate the risk of missing. As with air dodges, if you use your quickest aerial first, you can set up a free hit with a 'frame trap'. Very few characters have smashes quick enough to be safe on miss (bar, say, a decent LM with his super armor timings, or a character with particularly quick smashes). Downsmashing is actually oft a bad habit, as it creates an all-or-nothing approach to roll punishing where, if you miss, they then gain an opening. Rather than allow for that, focus on tilts, repeating jab 1's (LM, Ike, etc.), or so on. You may want to destroy your opponent each time they make a stupid roll, but overreacting solves nothing. Not only does a simpler hit punish them more safely, it also plays into mindgames: someone who smashes them out of a roll points out their problem with a floodlight and has them think their timing's off, while someone who repeatedly bats them aside with tilts from a near standstill will come across as incredibly intimidating. I can't count the number of leaves I've made just from focusing on swatting foes aside and waiting for them to make a 'real' approach.
3. They cannot roll in the air, and they cannot shield while rolling. This one will sound obvious at first glance, but too many people use aerial chasing with the same problems as those who ground chase-- they take on the burden of moving more than their opponent and they use unsafe, high-lag attacks. Many characters have moves that have low aerial lag, that auto-cancel, and/or that can hit behind you. Robin can Nair to punish a roll-behind method, Ike can Nair into an Ftilt behind, et cetera. These options may not be safe approaches against a typical shield-savvy opponent, but someone too focused on rolling becomes vulnerable to such methods. For that matter, some characters have approaches from the air that are potentially safe on both roll and shield, and that's saying nothing of the value of someone with a good retreating Fair or the like. Regardless, you need to take advantage of the opportunity cost of their roll-focused play, and, chances are, it's their air game that will suffer for it most of all.
4. Even defensive rollers with projectiles are dreadful at medium range. Because retreating rolls are so ubiquitous to Disk Hunt Dog, Spamus, or Flowchart Link, among others, it's important to understand how and why this works for them as often as it does. Moving into their melee attack range swiftly is the surest way to get yourself thrown, jabbed, or even roll-spaced out of attacking angles. Meanwhile, remaining stationary gets you hours of trying to power shield. The key is to get to medium range and stay there. From medium ranges, you're close enough to punish the endlag of a projectile with an aerial or such, while also being far enough that you're out of your foe's melee range, making any attempt by them to use such an easy punish as well. Pressure their spacing with spacing of your own that simply looks aggressive, then adopt the minimal movement strategy. From mid range, never run, only walk and shield to advance. If they dash at you, a SHFF Nair or the like can punish grabs, while a shield can punish dash attacks (or, if you prefer, a sidestep can handle either in many cases). The key is to limit their safe options as much as possible before acting yourself. If they move closer slowly, you successfully stopped them from rolling and play it off normally. If they use a projectile, power shield, sidestep, or short hop (varies), then carefully punish-- again, the focus on slow movement and minimally punishable attacks is key to this. If they melee from outside range, simply wait and punish as possible. Best of all, if they roll away from you, they have limited stage to work with, so simply walk after them to keep that spacing. But the key is to never move close enough that a roll towards you would land them anywhere but within your attack range-- ideally, just in front of you, as that then puts them offstage, and their air game has been established as one of the most likely things to suffer in a roll-focused foe's toolbox.
5. Abuse your strengths, just do it carefully. Every character has some tool that's excellent for roll punishes. Falcon kick can nail a retreat roll, arcfire can catch a roll that lands one midrange, tether-grabs can nab someone out of a roll, or a quick dash attack can punish the ending frames... And that's even discounting if you have a stronger projectile game and simply force them to approach with the constant threat of it. Range, speed, or whatever other tools you have are always important, but they key is knowing how to use them, and that you do use them. Too often I see quick characters wasting their speed with smash attacks, or characters with great zoning sacrifice their spacing to chase someone down... don't play the reactive game thoughtlessly, that's the rollspammer's game and they will always outdo you in a battle of bad habits. Select a small arsenal of moves that are safe or consistent and use them liberally-- spamming Mario's fireball is only so much free damage that someone rolling around at the speed of sound won't be getting by merit of their not attacking. Learn your advantages and leverage them, but don't trap yourself in bad habits to respond. Robin can't chase rollers down with dash attacks, Ike can't zone a projectile spammer, Palutena can't bat someone away with safe tilts, but each has their own tools to use. The second you lose sight of your style and strengths when obsessing over 'countering' your foe. There are two ways to play: reactive play to a foe's strategy, or proactive play that advances your own, and years of Starcraft and Pokemon tell me that the latter will often amount to free wins simply because your foe gets left a step behind. Force them into your pace, rather than aiming to match theirs, and you control the flow of the fight.

Anywhos, feel free to take that wall-o-text with a grain of salt, of course, as I'm a fairly intermediate player who does still get the same occasional stupid losses as most anyone, but introspective play is how I've always made up for abysmal reflexes, and, in a game like smash, strategy is so easy to lose sight of in favor of the gratification of a punishing smash or the like. I'm speaking mostly from what helped me to deal with a majority of spammy rollers, but it's by no means something I've mastered enough for the extremely punishing environment of an input-lagging fight with only two stocks to work with. ^^"

 

[dragontamer]

Personally, I find Robin's downsmash to be a bit too risky unless they mis-space a roll towards you from the get-go. Failing that, a dtilt or ftilt are the safest punishes to rolls toward you, while arcfire, any thunder, or the occasional dash attack/SH Nair/Fair can punish a predicted back roll.

Robin's Jab-Jab-Fire Jab can KO at like 130% if you're close to the edge of the stage.

With 4-startup frames and 4-active frames, it is extremely meaty for an attack of its speed, and honestly is one of the best roll punishes. Jab-jab-jab is somewhat unreliable however for Robin, but its still sets the opponent up in a bad situation.

For most characters, projectiles against "retreating" rolls is where its at.

@ One Tilt : The rest of your advice is helpful to Robin, Marth... or really any Fire Emblem character. Lol. These characters have strong tilts with large disjointed hitboxes and superior defensive games. Its good advice, but it's important to remember that your advice is based on your character choices.

And those character choices favor static, "strong" stances. "Come at me, fool" is a great strategy for these characters.

But for players with less range (Mario or Jigglypuff), these characters cannot play a static defense game. Instead, Jiggly needs to bob and weave in the air constantly, while Mario needs to work on dair / nair approaches and baits.

 

[One Tilt]

Robin's Jab-Jab-Fire Jab can KO at like 130% if you're close to the edge of the stage.

With 4-startup frames and 4-active frames, it is extremely meaty for an attack of its speed, and honestly is one of the best roll punishes. Jab-jab-jab is somewhat unreliable however for Robin, but its still sets the opponent up in a bad situation.

For most characters, projectiles against "retreating" rolls is where its at.

@ One Tilt : The rest of your advice is helpful to Robin, Marth... or really any Fire Emblem character. Lol. These characters have strong tilts with large disjointed hitboxes and superior defensive games. Its good advice, but it's important to remember that your advice is based on your character choices.

And those character choices favor static, "strong" stances. "Come at me, fool" is a great strategy for these characters.

But for players with less range (Mario or Jigglypuff), these characters cannot play a static defense game. Instead, Jiggly needs to bob and weave in the air constantly, while Mario needs to work on dair / nair approaches and baits.

That's part of the reason for the last point in that list. I give extreme examples that work for a fairly broad base of characters, but it's certainly not ideal if you have tilts that aren't suitable for punishes (Mario, Palutena, etc.), or if your range/speed on the ground isn't ideal, et cetera... I've tried that methodology with ZSS, Sheik, Ike, Marth, Samus, Lucina, Robin, Link, DK, Bowser, Ganon, Little Mac, Yoshi, Pikachu, Mii Gunner/Swordfighter, Dedede, Pit, Dark Pit... to varying degrees of success, of course. Those that the tilt method specifically works so minimally for include Mario and Jiggly (though their dsmash and dtilt respectively are decent), but there are plenty of others who are better served with alternatives, like Luigi, Palutena, Game & Watch, Megaman, Zelda... all have more character-specific methods that tend to work out better. I'm just trying to provide a bit more information-- there's no way one person could cover an entire game on their own, though, else the topic would have no replies, just +likes to the OP for all their great info. By all means, point out as many character-specific methods as you're familiar with-- I've always been very average at characters with weaker Ftilts, after all. ^^

Also, that note on Robin's jab is brilliantly dead-on. Just don't do what I always used to and get yourself using the wind jab facing the wrong way or something. XD