How do you approach with Kirby?

[Funkmasterblitz]

I love Kirby and all but I'm struggling to approach opponents online with safely with him. Any strategies?

 

[Asdioh]

Your guess is as good as mine. Lack of approach options, while being forced to approach, is kirby's weakness. (Aside from being light, having no projectiles or antiprojectile moves, and having no good disjointed moves.)

Sorry I'm in a bit of a Kirby depression after I've finally seen what his options are vs the true top/high tiers. He doesn't have good options. All good players have to do is run away from him, which works well because his run speed is below average and his air speed is among the worst.

Edit because phone interruptions: grabbing seems to be your best bet, just like brawl. Unfortunately following up is hard from throws because they go so far and kirby is so slow to follow. Dash attack is unsafe on shield. Approaching grabs are beat by pivot grabs. You can approach with any aerial, just need to space exceptionally well, and again good players won't sit still so they can run away from your air approach. You can punish shields with an aerial Inhale approach, but that's risky and requires a hard read. You can try approaching with ftilt and dtilt, that may be a good option vs certain characters. If you can copy their power that may change your options drastically. You might be able to force them to approach, or have extra options for your own approach.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

So now you're understanding that the struggle is real. I really don't know how to a approach either, and whenever I try to explain Kirby's flaws, like his speed, people say 'get out, he's not slow.'

 

[Asdioh]

Oh I've known he's a flawed character, it's been obvious since the beginning. Same weaknesses as melee and brawl, he's just tooooo slooooow to keep up. I was hoping his strengths could make up for it in this game, but they can't. Now that I've seen what truly good characters can do, it's obvious it's an uphill battle for Kirby. Even if you go in with the mindset "I'll just outplay everyone!" it's easier said than done.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Yeah it really is an uphill fight. I know I'm not as good as you are, but the struggle is still very real.

 

[wingey1984]

It seems dash grabbing is really the only "safe" option. Sometimes I DACUS for a mixup, but if they're heavy on the shield, there's nothing you can do. While Kirby's air speed is bad, air dodging multiple times is a way to get past projectile spam, as long as you don't land on the ground during the approach.

 

[Jeebis]

I see a lot of you guys not having any idea how to approach with Kirby,and in all honesty,he dose'nt have any in the first place.
Dash attack into a Uair or Fair could be a good way to get up on them but its not the hardest to avoid,and just jumping at them is a good way of getting yourself caught in a combo,so your main idea should be luring them into you,and it can get very anoyying against people who refuse to approach.
TL;DR: Dash/Dash Grab -> Uair/Fair/Dair then combo from there,or wait for them.

#KIRBYSTRUGGLE

 

[Chief Chili]

I found that even well spaced back airs can be shield grabbed by some opponents. I've been meaning to try using nair to jab and see if that would be able to apply shield pressure like it seems to work for Sonic.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

It seems dash grabbing is really the only "safe" option. Sometimes I DACUS for a mixup, but if they're heavy on the shield, there's nothing you can do. While Kirby's air speed is bad, air dodging multiple times is a way to get past projectile spam, as long as you don't land on the ground during the approach.

How are you doing a dacus without a second stick?

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

Kirby has a custom neutral special called Jumping Inhale that I consider a pretty decent approaching tool. It often requires your opponent to be mid-jump, but you can pull off cool mix-ups with B-reversing it. I successfully land Jumping Inhale a lot more than regular Inhale. For the latter, I normally was only able to successfully land one on a rolling a shielding character. What do you guys think?

Also, when I copy the ability of a character whose neutral special is a projectile, that sort of mitigates approaching issues (especially if you get Fireball or Autoreticle). I say sort of because, for example, ZSS is still better with her paralyzer than Kirby is because she can follow up better (she gets a free grab from a Paralyzer hit in most cases, and ZSS can follow up her throws with aerials). With Kirby, stunning ZSS is often done so far a way that the only way to attack is to grab, and Kirby gets next to nothing from his grabs because it leaves you awkwardly positioned.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Unfortunately, jumping inhale is telegraphed and can also be easily punished. It's nice for closing a gap, but you're totally vulnerable, forced to go the whole distance and can't cancel out of it. I find myself only using it for quick recovery from the sides off stage.


Copy abilities with projectiles are nice, but Kirby's initial approaching problem is still there. It's difficult to get an ability if you can't approach or pursue effectively.

 

[Slonk]

Yeah I've certainly noticed Kirby's lack of approach options (especially against the crazy good players in For Glory), but I kinda assumed it was just me sucking rather than him.

I'll often dash straight at them and then roll away/jump at the last second. Bad>Moderate players will go in for the attack when they see me running at them, and then miss, giving me a chance at getting a hit in.

Other than that I just sort of float above them to try to lure them into attacking me, so I can try to avoid it and hit back when they're still lagging.

 

[WootSnorlax]

I've been trying to mix up my Kirby game and experimenting with approaching options at the cost of my For Glory win ratio. It's going to be hard to see what can or cannot work with him just because of 3DS control limitations. Lets hope that DACUS will be an available option to Kirby in the Wii U version of the game even though it most likely won't be.

Since it's hard to RAR bair on the 3DS I have been using fair to space. Fair has been buffed since Brawl and it has a considerate amount of range and can be used to out-space some characters and out prioritize some characters. It's also a decent way of pressuring shield since most characters can't shield grab it if you space it correctly. Doing that along with mixing it up with some empty jumps has so far gotten some good results. Gotta see if this works on better people though.

I've also tried dash into stone (down b), since it comes out fast and does ~13-14% while also pushing them back too far for them to come and punish. I haven't seen too many people shield grabbing it and I want to know if it creates any kind of shield pressure. Probably will just end up using this as a mix up approach after seeing how well it really is.

You guys have to take into consideration that a lot of other characters don't have an easy way to approach also. The most standard way to approach is to Dash -> Grab, Dash -> Shield -> w/e, Dash-> Dash attack, or Dash -> Jump -> w/e. As much as I hate to admit it, characters with projectiles don't have to approach and that's why it feels so difficult for Kirby. That and his poor aerial move speed and ground move speed makes it hard for him to get in. If you can't duck under their projectiles the matchup is going to be difficult. Not only do you have to outplay the projectile game you have to mix up your approach options or they are going to adapt to what you do constantly. It takes a lot of patience to play as Kirby.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

It's not just projectiles that are the issue though, it's characters that are outright faster and have more priority than Kirby does. Like Asdioh said, faster characters can justm hit you, run away and Kirby can't do much of anything. I don't feel like for glory is a good way to see what Kirby's real flaws are. I've even had bad players just avoid me the entire match because I couldn't approach or punish them. Had one guy play as Ness all his did was the dash attack and then roll backwards, and go for a grab. I lost because I became frustrated and he managed to back throw me whenever he got me to 100% ob both stocks. Meanwhile I had trouble damaging him or getting in a kill move because I couldn't keep up and Kirby is easily punished.

 

[WootSnorlax]

It's not just projectiles that are the issue though, it's characters that are outright faster and have more priority than Kirby does. Like Asdioh said, faster characters can justm hit you, run away and Kirby can't do much of anything. I don't feel like for glory is a good way to see what Kirby's real flaws are. I've even had bad players just avoid me the entire match because I couldn't approach or punish them. Had one guy play as Ness all his did was the dash attack and then roll backwards, and go for a grab. I lost because I became frustrated and he managed to back throw me whenever he got me to 100% ob both stocks. Meanwhile I had trouble damaging him or getting in a kill move because I couldn't keep up and Kirby is easily punished.

Well honestly, most of the fast characters have some sort of projectile. That is really kind of ridiculous don't you think? Greninja water shurikan, yoshi egg toss, sheik needles. Those are the kind of characters that are Kirby's hardest match up (I'm not saying that those that I listed are the absolute hardest matchup). But it's not just because they are fast, but it is also because they don't HAVE to approach and can stay back and throw projectiles while also being fast. For priority though we're gonna need some more research. A character that is fast and has high priority is just a flaw in balance and there's not much we can honestly do about it unless Nintendo wants to do balance changes through patches. (Though seriously, Yoshi is really ridiculous) But most of this is based on the fact that we are all mostly playing online using the For Glory mode. Because if you can't find any friends or anybody that is good it's better to play against real people than to keep beating on bots.

On the topic of the For Glory mode though. This is a mode where you play against actual people that apply actual tactics, cheesy or not. It may not be the best way to see all of Kirby's flaws, but it is the best way to see the flaws that he has on this map. The only map is FD, where its either approach or be camped out by projectiles. It should be pretty obvious that Battlefield or Yoshi's would only make Kirby better because there is more room to work around. Those maps create different angles to approach. Even in a competitive setting though there is a chance that you will be brought to FD and that's why we need to know what's wrong with him on that map. I'm not going to deny that there are not any bad matchups for Kirby, but we need to see how bad they really are on different maps and with a better way to control your character without much lag. The Wii U version will obviously help us improve on the Kirby meta game, but already taking a negative look on it and not just looking at what you yourself can do better is not going to do much.

We should be looking for more options to separate ourselves from the cookie cutter tactics that happens when we put ourselves into auto play. We should be taking into account what will and won't work and not just complain about how hard a match up is. We have to shape the Kirby meta game by exploring and only doing the same tactic that's already proven to not work is not how you do that. Like this thread where we discuss in what way we can approach.

 

[Slonk]

Honestly I don't think Kirby is that bad. Yes, he's flawed, but I still use him because I loved him in 64, and coming here I found him still fairly useable.

Now I'm an average player at best. My win rate for 400 odd matches is around 55% in For Glory, pretty much only using Kirby. Now I don't set much store by that statistic, (how do you know your mate with a 10% win rate hasn't only fought world-class players?), but it still shows me that even in my solidly mediocre hands he can still be a force to be reckoned with.

I think Kirby's best weapon his his potential for unpredictability. When I see a Little Mac, I know he's going to dash right at me 90% of the time. Mario will fireball and then go for a D-throw to U-tilt combo, Link will shoot arrows or boomerang, DHD will use that bloody can and Jiggly will float above me and try to pull aerials on me. Ness is going to pk fire, d-throw and spam his f-air and Pacman will throw an apple or something at me.
On the rare occasion I see a Kirby, I have not the slightest inkling of what he's gonna do. They never do the same thing. This, I reckon, is our advantage.

Kirby's matchups are often uphill battles, true, but I think his advantage is in his relative flexibility. Yeah, approaching can be hard and his moves really are very punishable, but I find it fairly easy to mix it up enough that those flaws can be covered somewhat.
(Eg. I love to psych people out by floating above them and making them dodge an attack that never comes. True, it gets me nowhere, but it's nice to screw with people and it sometimes sets me up for later when they think I won't attack like all the other times, but I do).

Also, I find using his jumps (or just his crouch!) will often circumvent other character's projectile games and frustrate them into being less dependent on them. I really need to practice my spot-dodging more, but when I do get one in on a Charge Shot it feels pretty good.

No character or tactic is impossible to get around.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

It is actuallly pretty easy since projectiles cant hit you while flying and kirbys down air attack cant be easily shielded and the down air attack doesnt send your opponent flying so you can follow up with kirby stall moves making them pretty hard to dodge

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

I don't know what you're talking about when you say the down air can't be easily shielded. Mine gets shielded or dodged away from all the time. I also tend to see it or f-airs coming with Kirby dittos.

 

[Unknownkid]

I agree with WootSnorlax. Kirby may not be perfect but complaining about what he cannot do is not going to help us as a community. We should take what we know and develop Advanced Techniques, strategies and little tricks with tips for each matchup or in general. I feel like this Kirby is more about reads, being unpredictable, and adapting than completely dishing out damage. Now, on topic:

I found this topic good because, you know, I never thought about it. How does one approach safely? On Saturday, I was playing FG for a while and became really frustrated. All my approaches were not working. I was losing so many matches because I became too self conscious on the approach - what was safe and what was not. Especially against a good player, I realize my efforts were useless. I finally gave it a rest, put the game down and caught up on other stuff. When I returned, I was finally performing better. I stop thinking about it and just approach how I usually do. It was based on instinct and reaction. Of course, this wasn't going to help you guys but let me explain you what I mean.

-If your opponents love to roll dodge away from you, then chase with Dash Attack or Dash Grab.
-If your opponents love to side dodge, just approach with Jabs.
-If your opponents love to use projectiles, your Jabs, Ftilt, Fair, Nair will normally out prioritize the hit (of course timing and lag can cause more harm than good). Sometimes, I will side dodge/Air Dodge the first few shoots as I approach slowly until I know I am within range to punish their shot recovery.
-If your opponents love to do dash attack, then Inhale beats them. I don't know why. I guess our Inhale's hitbox "grabs" them before they hit us. It was most noticeable when I was facing a Captain Falcon.
-If your opponents loves to shield, then obviously have to abuse your grab or play mindgames with them.

-I found well spaced Dtilt to be generally safe unless your opponent has a long reach Dtilt or Ftilt. Most characters cannot grab you unless they do a pivot grab, it comes out fast and trips for setups. Most times Walking and Reads are better than Dashing and being Full Assault. Other times, it is the other way around.
-If you ever air dodge, make sure to preform a Nair and Fast Fall to lower down the recovery time to 10 Frames.
-Practice Perfect Shield for those opponents that love to hit and run with their projectile. Do your best to get their powers!

As you can tell, there is no general, perfect, or "safe" approach method in my opinion. Its typically character specific. You are going to need to adapt to your opponent's play style and capitalize on their weakness. You have six Jump make use of it. It is going to be tough but minus 64 and probably P:M - it has always be an uphill battle. Deal with it, star warrior!

 

[ryuu seika]

-If you ever air dodge, make sure to preform a Nair and Fast Fall to lower down the recovery time to 10 Frames.

I'm told Dair does this better, having no landing lag at all if you hit the ground before a hitbox comes out.

 

[Unknownkid]

I'm told Dair does this better, having no landing lag at all if you hit the ground before a hitbox comes out.

Oh really? So just like Diddy Kong's Dair? Well good to know. Thank you, kind sir.

 

[wingey1984]

How are you doing a dacus without a second stick?

Just input it faster. It's not impossible.

 

[FreeGamer]

The most I've done is gotten in people's faces with F-Air and D-Air. Doesn't work too well against some characters, but it's all he has.

 

[Chief Chili]

I'm told Dair does this better, having no landing lag at all if you hit the ground before a hitbox comes out.

According to this:
http://i.imgur.com/t80TyRa.png

Dair has more landing lag than nair so wouldn't nair be better? Unless I'm missing something...

 

[Unknownkid]

According to this:
http://i.imgur.com/t80TyRa.png

Dair has more landing lag than nair so wouldn't nair be better? Unless I'm missing something...

That is if you landing with it. What Ryuu is saying is to cancel the animation by fast falling before the Kicks comes out. Like Diddy Kong in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1tlXgy8-bE

 

[t!MmY]

Dair has more landing lag than nair so wouldn't nair be better? Unless I'm missing something...

The trick with D-air is that there is an "Auto Cancel" in the beginning (just as with Melee and Brawl) before the hitbox becomes active. What ends up happening is that Kirby will cancel out the D-air, and subsequently the Air Dodge landing lag, without any of the Aerial Attack landing lag normally found with D-air. He will also say "Hup!", which is why it's also known as a "Hup Cancel".

Edit:
Unknownkid ninja's my post ... because I was having too much fun watching the Hup Cancel video. XD

 

[Unknownkid]

Haha! So that is where Hup! came from. The more you know. I thought it was an abbreviation for something.

Well, at least your reply is scientific. It gave a perfect explanation for the trick and proper AT term for it. Now, how the heck do I do this on the 3ds?

 

[Chief Chili]

Ah thanks for clearing that up. Wow this opens up a new approach option for Kirby then. Short hop > air dodge > down air (hup cancel) > jab/grab/down tilt/up tilt/inhale/shield etc.

 

[Lord Viper]

D-Air > Jab will work on a nice amount of characters, though some characters can N-Air out of Kirby's jab like Mario, Dr. Mario, Luigi, maybe Yoshi never tried against him though. Bowser can counter jab Kirby's jab, so with the characters listed D-Air > D-Tilt if in front of you is better. ★

 

[Asdioh]

Actually, Kirby can short hop and if you airdodge immediately, without fastfalling, he doesn't suffer airdodge lag.
He can also, as mentioned, start the beginning of Dair and then lands immediately with no lag as well. I believe it's more consistent (but requires more button inputs) to cancel lag with Dair, because if you don't airdodge immediately out of short hop, you'll get the airdodge lag.
He says "Hup!" if you cancel airdodge lag with Dair. This... this may be the true use of Hup Canceling.

Run at enemy -> short hop -> airdodge -> dair autocancel -> grab or do other action. Oh man. It's kind of awkward to do on 3ds controls but with practice it will become second nature. Oh man hup canceling.

ninja:

D-Air > Jab will work on a nice amount of characters, though some characters can N-Air out of Kirby's jab like Mario, Dr. Mario, Luigi, maybe Yoshi never tried against him though. Bowser can counter jab Kirby's jab, so with the characters listed D-Air > D-Tilt if in front of you is better. ★

Yeah some characters have aerials out of jab, it's annoying. I believe Ness is one, his Nair is godlike.
Don't forget that Kirby can DI out of some jabs though, even if Bowser Jr can jab you out of your jab, his jab is ridiculously easy to DI out of so you can go up and then fastfall a Nair on him and he can't do anything, making it never worth it for him. At least, if he does the rapid jab part. I don't know how good his individual starter jabs are.

 

[SRUFUS3D]

Wasn't Kirby 'good' in the demos?...

 

[FreeGamer]

Yes, since he had a reliable kill move in U-Throw.

 

[ryuu seika]

Yes, since he had a reliable kill move in U-Throw.

This. Sadly, the balance of the Boxing Ring stage was considered more important than that of our character.

 

[C.O.M.M]

I guess it depends on who you are fighting since some things may work better on different characters. One thing that I can mention that is sort-of consistent is to be unpredictable, even walking or allowing an enemy to approach you instead are easy solutions to these problems.

One thing I have learned is patience is a virtue in regards to Kirby, sometimes not doing anything when you approach will cause an reaction that can be exploited. Just dip, duck, dodge or float about and your enemy will give you your options.

Of course, this is entirely situation but this is the method I find works the best.

 

[SyncNatsyu]

I've been approaching with SH Uairs and Fairs, with kirby. On the ground I try to go for a grab or wait for an opportunity to, otherwise I might dash attack to catch bad shielding.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

I wish short hops f-airs and b-airs were easier on the 3ds, I struggle to do them while retreating, especially in lag.

 

[MaximTomato]

It will definitely be a lot better on the 3DS with the c-stick. And I'm hoping that the better processor helps improve the lag. Also what C.O.M.M said, sometimes it's better to let opponents approach you, or even walking sometimes. It's helped me a couple times.

 

[t!MmY]

Wasn't Kirby 'good' in the demos?...

The Kirby I remember playing in the demo was 'better'. I'm halfway thinking Kirby was slightly nerfed before the final release, though I really don't have any solid evidence of this. :\

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Kirby's upthrow having difficulty killing at good percents is pretty good evidence.

I also feel like Kirby was able to kill with his smashes at lower percents in the demos.

 

[ryuu seika]

Kirby's upthrow having difficulty killing at good percents is pretty good evidence.
I also feel like Kirby was able to kill with his smashes at lower percents in the demos.

The former is because it broke the Boxing Ring, not because Kirby himself needed any balancing. Charizard's similar throw is also terrible at killing.