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Data Hero-King's Council: Video Analysis

megamain

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I tried not to do the things that Emblem Lord warned me against and for the most part, I think I stayed away from them. Here are some of my matches from this morning. It's hard to break old habits but the advice here is really good and I'm starting to think more.

http://youtu.be/nWypZdbD0Zs

Sorry for the double post but my internet is acting up again.
 
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Shaya

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All my saved tournament matches with Marth from yesterday~
(I didn't save the one I lost :< [i got 3 stocked ~_~; against patv the DK])

Post-analysis/commentary or whatever, let me know if what I'm talking about is helpful at all, I generally just try to go over my thought process (hindsight bias though) at the time. Perhaps some things are basic enough I don't need to go over them (let me know) or some things I do I should clarify or focus on more often.
 
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Foodies

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I enjoyed it. I was impressed by how easily you killed Luma; usually when I try that tactic I just get hit for it. Agreeing with the point that Greninja seems harder than Sheik just because of general kill potential (...I still get hydro pump gimped at times, someone teach me how to recover >_>). Lol'd when DK died at 85% to tipper usmash. I want to say he didn't DI/VI that properly, heh

Something I wanted to ask was if Greninja's water shuriken on hit/on shield to dash grab is guaranteed at certain distances/%s? Or is it something you can just jump/spotdodge to avoid all the time?
 

Kinslayer

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Those were some awesome games. My only thing I have to say is when you knock DK of the stage horizontally down air him. You seemed to respect his recovery so much when you don't need to. His recovery is very linear and easy to read, It only has armor on the start up, and it makes dk a huge target. Spike the hell out of him.
 
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Emblem Lord

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@ Shaya Shaya - Watched for about 8 mins, but then stopped because it's kind of pointless. All that I know, you know as well. Seems you have become a strong advocate of ledge traps. They are damn easy and very effective that's for sure. There are times where you over commit in the air and you get wrecked for it, but im sure you know what went wrong. For the most part your Marth was smooth and in control. You play alot like NinjaLink btw cept with Dashing Assault. Only thing left for you imo is focusing on the kill when you have them around 115 or more. That tipper f-tilt is not to be slept on. Fair is clearly still kinda stupid just not AS stupid as it once was.

I will say you need to run off that stage and counter multi-hitting up bs once you see them. DK's spinning king is counter bait.

Overall though it's plain to see how you won a tournament with Marth. Your knowledge and fundamentals speak for themselves. Start implementing more tech like Roll Cancel Pivot Grabs and your Marth will be at maximum hero-kingness.

btw i just realized f-tilt solves Marths greatest weakness of not having a kill move thats at least somewhat safe. so yeah..thats pretty hype when i sit down and think about it. Also it seems to have similar knockback to ikes f-tilt and kills at similar percents.

So....even less reason to use any blue haired swordsman besides Marth i guess. *shrug*

@ E Eternal phoenix Fire - Assuming you want a critique, I see ALOT of overcommitment. Just...attacking sometimes with no regard to spacing or even if it was the best option for your situation. I can't tell if you are just goofing around though so that's why I won't go in-depth.
 

Big O

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@ Shaya Shaya The tourney replays were entertaining and the commentary was nice. I felt bad at how much they nerfed DK's smash attacks though. A fresh Dsmash at like 90% used to be the end of a stock. I think vs Rosalina, you should try to stage spike her with Bair more often. If you opt for Dolphin Jump you could probably just Nair to intercept her in almost any situation.
 

Shaya

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You play alot like NinjaLink btw cept with Dashing Assault.
NEWB, he plays LIKE ME *it's begun*. ;)
You should watch the last match against DK though, I think you'll enjoy it with maniacal laughter~
ALSO of course fair is still stupid :D. But I think I need to implement back air for a rising aerial option, roughly being able to fast fall and auto cancel on something would probably patch a hole or two in game play; probably will wait for C-sticks before getting into it.
Oh, I wouldn't mind you watching the greninja (3rd match / 2nd last) either. I didn't deal with that with any confidence beyond the fact I wasn't too afraid of getting punished.
So... yeah maybe just not watching the near-8 minute rosalina match would alleviate potential boredom~

@ Shaya Shaya The tourney replays were entertaining and the commentary was nice. I felt bad at how much they nerfed DK's smash attacks though. A fresh Dsmash at like 90% used to be the end of a stock. I think vs Rosalina, you should try to stage spike her with Bair more often. If you opt for Dolphin Jump you could probably just Nair to intercept her in almost any situation.
Stage spiking bair was pretty common there, but yeah going deep for a neutral air is probably a good idea; I do that against Sonic with some success.

DK not killing me with smash attacks at 100% just makes me so happy about that match up haha.
 
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Random4811

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@ Shaya Shaya
Very solid gameplay! I had to rewatch the first like, 5 minutes of the video because your accent kept me busy trying to guess where you're from, and I completely ignored the video while I let it whisk me away (I love non-midwestern american accents. Even people from Chicago fascinate me with how different they sound sometimes.)
But anyway, I was pretty familiar with what you were doing. I was surprised to see that we have a lot of playstyle similarities (so that means I'm doing something right?) but you definately use nair more than I do, and you don't start dtiling in stupid places.
If there is one thing I can comment on, its that on Greninja's multi-hit jab, you should be trying to vector out of it from the start and countering while you're toward the edge. From what I can tell, it works with every multi-hit in the game. Its very useful for surviving Zero-suits Up B at higher %'s if you somehow get caught in it, and can lead to a free kill if you're toward the upper half of the screen, or ZSS is just at higher percents.
Also, with Ninja, baiting his side b and then countering is really easy and you can rack up damage fast. If you've got Iai counter on (which I don't recommend against Ninja, I prefer reg. counter on him) it can even lead to an early kill near the ledge. Side B has enough starting frames to see and hear coming in time to drop a counter risk free against him for trying to Shadow Sneak. Apart from that, you could bait Dk into feeding your counter with his multi hit attack. There was a point in the video where you shield his Neutral B, but you had apt time to unshield, and hit him hard with his own attack. Moves like that are relatively easy to bait out and rack up damage really easy. Its also a free space reset, which, I'm pretty sure puts DK at the disadvantage against us.
You just don't counter. Its odd, because there are so many instances where I think instead of just taking an attack or shielding it, you could have gotten the counter and potentially even gotten easy kills. You also don't foxtrot or pivot roll cancel grab. Marth's foxtrot is incredibly easy to do and is overall better than his normal dash. In doing it, you have at least 3 good options (may be more, but I havent tested any others besides Usmash which doesnt work directly out of dash): Dash attack, Ftilt and Fsmash.

I imagine I'm not giving you any new information, so sorry for the useless wall of text. I'm kind of a scrub to competitive, I only started seriously trying to learn how to play competitively like 5 months ago with PM, and then I immediately put it down and picked up 3DS when it came out. But I hope that some of this information is somewhat useful to someone.
 

Shaya

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Counter's risk is much the same as it was in Brawl, just the reward is better. It's just outside of my mindset because if I have 5 frames to do something, I could probably fair or jab it, and if I'm dealing with a multi hit move I only find countering being reliable if their inputs aren't precise-ish (although for people holding multi jab its something I should be doing). I may be wrong, but the move just screams newby to me when I will likely get something better if I power shield an action (and it's faster); lai counter activates faster and I actually see merit in using it because of this. I play Marth reactively, and an option that is all about reading or 'liberal usage' (and people just seem to really expect counter so often lol) doesn't gel much with me, but I should be working on it in friendlies more. The way I practise is against CPUs right now, and no real way to get used to counter against them.

I'm not sure about roll cancelled grabs, I just noticed how much easier it is to pivot grab on the spot if you use shield + a instead of the grab button while practising today, and I'm pretty happy. But yeah, otherwise, pivot grabs more would be good.

Fox trot is essentially still just dashing, there really isn't that many options gained (I can 'fox trot' at any point after the run), fox trot pivoting is something I'll be using with a game cube controller.
In a fox trot you can only dash attack/grab, pivot 'actions', jump actions (including cancels), side-b (in the dash direction, but you can b-reverse it)
After the 'fox trot' period (you're going through it while 'dashing' anyway) you can neutral b, down b, side-b in either direction, fsmash.

You can definitely up smash during fox trots,runs, dashes, etc. Are you playing with tap jump off?
 

Random4811

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Counter's risk is much the same as it was in Brawl, just the reward is better. It's just outside of my mindset because if I have 5 frames to do something, I could probably fair or jab it, and if I'm dealing with a multi hit move I only find countering being reliable if their inputs aren't precise-ish (although for people holding multi jab its something I should be doing). I may be wrong, but the move just screams newby to me when I will likely get something better if I power shield an action (and it's faster); lai counter activates faster and I actually see merit in using it because of this. I play Marth reactively, and an option that is all about reading or 'liberal usage' (and people just seem to really expect counter so often lol) doesn't gel much with me, but I should be working on it in friendlies more. The way I practise is against CPUs right now, and no real way to get used to counter against them.

I'm not sure about roll cancelled grabs, I just noticed how much easier it is to pivot grab on the spot if you use shield + a instead of the grab button while practising today, and I'm pretty happy. But yeah, otherwise, pivot grabs more would be good.

Fox trot is essentially still just dashing, there really isn't that many options gained (I can 'fox trot' at any point after the run), fox trot pivoting is something I'll be using with a game cube controller.
In a fox trot you can only dash attack/grab, pivot 'actions', jump actions (including cancels), side-b (in the dash direction, but you can b-reverse it)
After the 'fox trot' period (you're going through it while 'dashing' anyway) you can neutral b, down b, side-b in either direction, fsmash.

You can definitely up smash during fox trots,runs, dashes, etc. Are you playing with tap jump off?
What I mean by not being able to Usmash during foxtrots is that when I pause for the frame (not even sure that its that long, its very seamless) that it takes to be able to Fsmash out of foxtrot, it takes longer to Usmash, and at that point I've come to a full stop and have been open for a good 3 or 4 frames. Fsmash out of foxtrot seems about as seemless as the dash attack itself.
And of course I'm playing with tap to jump off, I'm not a pleb :p I turned that off as a casual in Brawl, and I was a child then.

I understand the mindset that counters are scrubby, but I find that if you know when your counter window is, you'll land the counter 9 times out of 10. It helps a lot against Ninja, because it discounts his side b entirely and punishes his multi jab. I like Iai counter in a lot of places, but because Ninja's movement is very quick, its not reliable in the air, and its not reliable on some of his ground moves, due to them being multi hits. If you dont line up the Iai counter just right, you end up eating the rest of the multi hit due to less super armor frames. Counter stays out longer, and if you land it, it is a very safe use of its frame window. I generally play reactively as well, and I tend to look for counter-punishable patterns in my enemy's playstyle because of how easy it is to pull off (assuming you know when to start it for each attack.)

For me, counters are more useful the more I see a character. My training partner mains ZSS. He is rather good with her (though he hasnt shown it in his OT play, his nerves eat him alive), and tends to kick my butt if I'm not super duper careful because he knows me really well, like I know him. Due to this, I can reliably counter every single one of ZSS's moves. I know exactly when I should start my counter for each one she throws out. When I see a move being thrown out, if I know I can get the counter, I go for it. This doesnt only apply to ZSS, I've got a general idea for most of the cast. I tend to be able to determine it mid match, so if someone is really pestering me with something and I have a hard time dealing with it, I can throw out a counter no problem and shut their strategy down.

The best way to get mileage out of counter is to get that same comfortability with it, and having the general idea of your counter window. Using it sparingly is important, because if you don't they will obviously bait it and punish you. (Though you can bait their bait and punish their punish if you're clever.) CPU's are actually not bad to learn counters against, because you end up learning exactly when you should throw out counter against each move. Like, you could get comfortable enough against Ganon to just hop in front of warlock punch and counter it, which I think would be an instant kill anywhere near the edge.

I feel fox trotting is less commitment than the full dash. Maybe its a mental thing. I picked it up a while ago, watching some Ken streams. I don't know. I know you could do the same thing with doing a continuous dash, it just feels like that'd be harder to time. Its probably in my head.
 

Random4811

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I play with tap jump on :p
Really? Doesnt it make everything harder for you, in terms of U attacks? I mean, if not, more power to you. Thats interesting.
 

Phoenon

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vs. Mario
vs. Yoshi

I'm rather new to taking Smash seriously, I'd appreciate any and all advice and tips (pun very intended) for Marth. Things like shielding my aerials and following up by grabbing or attacking seem to be wrecking me so far in general, that and trying to get used to ambiguously crossing up dash attacks that I find hard to punish not knowing which side they'll be on after I block it.

Smash is a very odd game for me compared to other fighters I've played in the past to be honest.
 
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Moydow

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Hi guys :) I have a couple of videos here from before the new patch was released, if anyone here would maybe like to look over them and give me some advice/constructive criticism on what I'm doing right or wrong? I'm sure these are nothing compared to most of the stuff here, but we all have to start somewhere :) (apologies for picture/sound quality, I'm just recording them with my tablet camera)

Me (Marth) vs. "gabaqui..." (Lucina)

Me (Lucina) vs. Wakk (Marth) (is it ok to put a Lucina video here? since it's more or less the same idea as playing Marth)

(edit: I just realised both matches I posted are Marth vs. Lucina. there are more diverse ones on my channel, if anyone wants me to link to those)
 
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Shaya

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You know what you're doing, but you're playing in a lot of lag; like whiffing attack into counter? rolling into counter? Ughhh, making it very hard to structurally give you any further advice

Second match was kinda bad... the marth player had momentum early on with rolls, but the very-laggy counter spam swung the momentum back into your favour.

;\

Can't say much else, and I'm not trying to insult you, but you abuse wifi lag to win with counter in such a way I cannot rate your usage/abilities well at all.
Common technical mishaps with trying to double aerial out of a short hop or landing into actions, but i'm sure you're aware; if you work on this more you'll play a lot smoother. Remember to always attempt to retreat in "neutral position" forward airs.
Try move around more when you attack, I know it's probably lag too, but multiple actions in a row without movement doesn't achieve anything unless you're expecting the opponent to just run into it..
 
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_Relapse_

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All my saved tournament matches with Marth from yesterday~
(I didn't save the one I lost :< [i got 3 stocked ~_~; against patv the DK])

Post-analysis/commentary or whatever, let me know if what I'm talking about is helpful at all, I generally just try to go over my thought process (hindsight bias though) at the time. Perhaps some things are basic enough I don't need to go over them (let me know) or some things I do I should clarify or focus on more often.
Enjoyed watching that with the commentary.
 

sawp

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Been messing around with some dash dancing + fox trot with Marth. He and Lucina appear to be the only ones capable of doing these with any sort of consistency and speed. Here's something I recorded vs a lvl 9 CPU cause I get too much latency playing online.

 

Owangepuffs

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There are several characters with notable dash dances and fox trots. Little Mac comes to mind immediately.
 

HamBurgler

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Here's a video of Mr. E (Marth) beating M2K (Diddy):

youtube.com/watch?v=nqsgNI_nn2c

*It should be noted there was apparently input lag.
 

Giannis

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Hello fellow Marth mains, I would like to ask for your help. I would appreciate it if you could give me some pointers with my Marth. The above video is from the finals of a local greek tournament, one day after the launch of the WiiU version. Any help would be appreciated!
 

Shaya

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Here's a video of Mr. E (Marth) beating M2K (Diddy):

youtube.com/watch?v=nqsgNI_nn2c

*It should be noted there was apparently input lag.
Welcome to da smashboards~

Honestly this was an interesting set I kept thinking Mr.E would lose, but he adapted well to things whilst M2K didn't.
For a while there I genuinely believed M2K would win just by short hop auto cancelling fair over and over again, thinking to myself "lol lag + lol diddy is so stupid", but Eric (I'm pretty sure it's Eric) starting bopping that and M2K just ... kept going for it.

I think this springboards people's impressions on Marth a lot higher than before, and probably more than he deserves (kinda). Marth's EZ gimps on Diddy is pretty good for the match up (like jump off and counter lol tier), Fsmash is much easier to land in this game than Brawl, and honestly dolphin slash is still a good move (been a while since I did a spiel on a move, but I had this baby in mind ever since I saw Zucco's megaman use his up tilt successfully and thought to myself, well if he's getting these hits in successfully, than marth can too); but it's probably a lot better than it should be on wifi due to lag.
 

The_Cardinal

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Welcome to da smashboards~

I think this springboards people's impressions on Marth a lot higher than before, and probably more than he deserves (kinda).
Yeah, it was interesting how, just because of Mr. E's match vs M2K, people did a complete 180 with Marth, going from "Yo, Marth is trash" to "This character is SO good. Tippers too stronk." Granted, this reaction was expected and a bit exaggerated but still. Heck, Zero, when he was on UltraDavid's and James Chen's First Attack show on Monday, flat out admitted that he originally thought Marth was bottom 5 until Mr. E's match and then he changed his mind into thinking that Marth is potentially high tier. Makes you wonder how long this impression will last while Marth mains are just trucking along, doing the same thing they always do and placing their faith on the tools of the Hero-King.
 

Owangepuffs

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All it takes is one match to thrust a character into the spotlight. High tier? Oh lawd.
 

Emblem Lord

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megamain: Ok so finally getting back to you.

Overall much better. I feel you are thinking alot more, but still see some poor decisions here and there. Jump back shieldbreaker has me very confused. I don't know why you are doing that. Can you tell me why? If you can't give a really concrete answer then its probably not a good idea. I want to see more d-tilt and jabs. Walk more for spacing purposes and empty SHs for that reason as well. Still you are on your way to seeing vast improvement. I can tell you are already getting better from these vids compared to your first batch that you posted.
 

Random4811

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Been messing around with some dash dancing + fox trot with Marth. He and Lucina appear to be the only ones capable of doing these with any sort of consistency and speed. Here's something I recorded vs a lvl 9 CPU cause I get too much latency playing online.

Captain Falcon, Fox, Mac, and Shiek all come to mind in terms of dash dancing. Plenty of characters can dash dance. I dont know if they all can, but there is certainly a large number of them that can. As for Fox trotting, anyone can do that. Marth's is just EZ PZ. I can get it to work 100% of the time on the 3DS version (while dashdancing remains impossible to do just holding it T.T can't wait till I get the Wii U version)
 

sawp

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Captain Falcon, Fox, Mac, and Shiek all come to mind in terms of dash dancing. Plenty of characters can dash dance. I dont know if they all can, but there is certainly a large number of them that can. As for Fox trotting, anyone can do that. Marth's is just EZ PZ. I can get it to work 100% of the time on the 3DS version (while dashdancing remains impossible to do just holding it T.T can't wait till I get the Wii U version)
Yeah, I never said no other characters could fox trot or dash dance, just that it's difficult on other characters to do it consistently and quickly. I've tried with other characters and it just doesn't seem like a positive maneuver no matter the situation, or that it would be worthwhile to learn on them. I feel like with Marth and Lucina, incorporating these moves into your arsenal can go a long way at helping you establish spacing and play mindgames.

I will add in that Little Mac is actually pretty good at this too, although the timing is slightly different than for Lucina and Marth.
 

Random4811

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Yeah, I never said no other characters could fox trot or dash dance, just that it's difficult on other characters to do it consistently and quickly. I've tried with other characters and it just doesn't seem like a positive maneuver no matter the situation, or that it would be worthwhile to learn on them. I feel like with Marth and Lucina, incorporating these moves into your arsenal can go a long way at helping you establish spacing and play mindgames.

I will add in that Little Mac is actually pretty good at this too, although the timing is slightly different than for Lucina and Marth.
Not to derail the thread anymore, I'll just say that what I've seen of competitive Wii U play says differently. They're just different speeds. Different rhythms. Same with the foxtrots.
 

sawp

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Not to derail the thread anymore, I'll just say that what I've seen of competitive Wii U play says differently. They're just different speeds. Different rhythms. Same with the foxtrots.
I don't disagree that the way the game is played now is at a different speed and rhythm. I do think there's some value in exploring alternative movement schemes, just as there was when wavedashing was discovered in Melee, before anyone got good enough with it to turn it into a positive maneuver.
 

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Fighting these types of players are frustrating, I mean it doesn't help that it's netplay but still, any advice at all from what anyone can tell from my playstyle?
 
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Victor Coelho

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Hey guys, finnaly had time to share one of my for glory matches with my Lucina. I know this is a marth thread but i started to learn more of my character after i started to hang out here.

I still need to work on my general flow... Stay more calm, doge less, walk more and do more empty short hops. My dtilt trap is still weak too. Anyway, hope you guys can help me improve my lucina. Thanks in advance!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bm6RTZcDWm8&feature=youtu.be
 

GrubGrub

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Fighting these types of players are frustrating, I mean it doesn't help that it's netplay but still, any advice at all from what anyone can tell from my playstyle?
I can't claim to know a lot about the safest options with Marth and whatever but as someone who plays Falcon and Marth, I just noticed a few things to keep an eye for:

- 0:00-0:20: this is where the game kinda set its patterns I think, with the Falcon being aggressive and you trying to fend him off. While being defensive is a useful tool against combo strong and hard hitters like a Falcon, I think you might have gotten stuck in that mindset TOO much

- in the defensive mindset, you used the rollback option A LOT in neutral, especially right out of shield, so much so that it almost became like a movement option. It may be helpful to rethink what you're going to do after shielding if you haven't been hit. For example, at 1:44, you immediately roll back after getting hit by a punishable dash attack. The better option would have been to drop shield and pivot into an offensive choice like grab. This is one instance where you can see a habit that you NEED to break to be more effective in punishing.

- overall, you should practice more grabbing to punish whiffed attacks, especially against a character who falls fast like Falcon, so the downthrow to up air would most likely work and even if he air dodges it, you can punish the landing. Grabbing overall, mindset-wise, helps in assuming control over your opponent, which really helps momentum. Important thing to note, though, for shield-grabbing falcon is it really only works against certain moves with a lot of lag, so rarely against aerials, since he can jab your shield.

- you rarely used full hop FAir which is one of Marth's best zoning options, even if your opponent rarely leaves the ground. You did use it at 1:23, but too keen on getting a hit afterwards, so you went forwards with another FAir. Usually full hop FAir should be a retreating wall against approaches, so when you jump and use FAir, the advantage is you can come down with either an attack (another FAir, a DAir or NAir) or bait a shield and grab

- the raw Forward Smashes, either out of shield or just as a way to catch him approaching. This is a tactic that may hit and do some damage in the short term, but is neveeeer good for long term. FSmash should always be spaced well, which is hard to do mentally when you use it soo many times. Getting the tipper of FSmash is what you should aim for, rather than racking up damage. The more damage you do with raw FSmashes, it becomes more and more difficult to actually lead into FSmash with other moves like DTilt, and your opponent begins to anticipate the move itself.

- @ 0:31 and 2:02, I see a pattern of you hitting your opponent, having him fall, and then you shielding as you approach. I assume this is a get-up attack read, which is smart but you may be reading based on your past experiences and not your opponent itself, who's never get-up attacked before. This is one of the times where you may be respecting your opponent too much, so the better alternative may be to not predict but look where he goes, and then acting accordingly.

- a nitpicky thing to improve edge-guarding @ 3:42 , everything about the off-stage movement was great EXCEPT you should know Marth's BAir hits way stronger, so a good thing to do is run off stage, quickly tap (on control stick) the side behind you as you jump, allowing you to turn and be facing towards the stage as you jump off, and then BAir. Falcon's recovery is really telegraphed so it was great that you went offstage multiple times to edge guard.

Overall, you still won the game, proving that biding your time and waiting for approaches is one of Marth's key benefits, I think the only problem was the way you zoned out your opponents and some habits.
 
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GrubGrub

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 24, 2014
Messages
153
Thanks! I'm new to the whole sharing tactics and comparing playstyles thing so I find all of this stuff fascinating. I've been browsing Marth threads for a while now and have read a lot of your comments so getting a compliment from such a sharp (yes pun intended) player is very flattering haha.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,947
Hey guys, finnaly had time to share one of my for glory matches with my Lucina. I know this is a marth thread but i started to learn more of my character after i started to hang out here.

I still need to work on my general flow... Stay more calm, doge less, walk more and do more empty short hops. My dtilt trap is still weak too. Anyway, hope you guys can help me improve my lucina. Thanks in advance!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bm6RTZcDWm8&feature=youtu.be
Marth and Lucina are spacing-dependent characters, as Marth has always been. Your rolling costs you a lot in this video even though you don't see it, necessarily. At 0:57 you miss a d-smash and then instinctively rollback to avoid the punish, even though your opponent was in the corner of the stage. You need to seize stage control and keep it; don't back yourself into the corner. Giving up stage control is kind of like taking damage. Pretend to yourself that every time you move back toward a corner of the stage you're taking 3% damage. Then ask yourself if it's worth it to take 3% in this scenario to get away from your opponent. Sometimes, it will be, because there are no hard-and-fast rules in smash, but most of the time you'll find that standing your ground or just using walking spacing will be better for you.
 
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