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Data Hero-King's Council: Video Analysis

EternalFlame

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Yeah, I put it in the video decription as well.

It's just that, combo video, I feel is the general term for videos like that, cuz string video sounds f*cking weird.


Thanks tho ^^ And these were recent, so I wonder if you can notice any changes on my Marth playstyle ever since we played each other :3

BTW, I especially like what I can do to Shulk while using Marth. IDK, I just feel it's a very good matchup XP
I think montage would have served the purpose of video title better than combos really xD In combos you sorta expect multiple hits chained together, even in the mistaken sense of the term - and not everything on the video was a one sided string of attacks without any form of retaliation.

Since the last time we played, it seems about the same xD Though your offstage play has gotten much sharper, and you're better than me with those FAir walls.

As long as you're good in that MU, then its fine xD But I'd encourage that you look for more competition against multiple people for those MUs, as Shulk technically should be outspacing us and we have to outspeed him. Though you'd think after all the Marth dittos I've done, I would have improved a little bit against it xD
 

Darklink401

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I think montage would have served the purpose of video title better than combos really xD In combos you sorta expect multiple hits chained together, even in the mistaken sense of the term - and not everything on the video was a one sided string of attacks without any form of retaliation.

Since the last time we played, it seems about the same xD Though your offstage play has gotten much sharper, and you're better than me with those FAir walls.

As long as you're good in that MU, then its fine xD But I'd encourage that you look for more competition against multiple people for those MUs, as Shulk technically should be outspacing us and we have to outspeed him. Though you'd think after all the Marth dittos I've done, I would have improved a little bit against it xD
Aha! Compilation. I like that. I'ma use that ;3

And thanks XP lol you really should work on fair walls tho, they're so good~


And idk, I mean, Shulk can outspace us, but he seems to have the same problem Ike does. Our sword just swings faster. So we can get in rather easy. I haven't fought any dedicated Shulk mains that I know personally, but every time I fight a Shulk in FG with Marth, it's usually an easy time for me =P
 

EternalFlame

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Aha! Compilation. I like that. I'ma use that ;3

And thanks XP lol you really should work on fair walls tho, they're so good~


And idk, I mean, Shulk can outspace us, but he seems to have the same problem Ike does. Our sword just swings faster. So we can get in rather easy. I haven't fought any dedicated Shulk mains that I know personally, but every time I fight a Shulk in FG with Marth, it's usually an easy time for me =P
Yep, Shulk's aim is to outspace, and ours is to outspeed. But For Glory won't do you much favors, I can promise ya that. You're better off fighting people from the forums, as there's a better chance of finding a rather strong player for an MU you're looking for.

I would practice those FAir walls, but lately I've been putting time to other things rather than practicing Smash. Gotta find me a job, and I still have my own projects to work on. But at least I figured something out yesterday after fighting Lore's friend then messing in training mode for a bit (mostly due to me trying to figure out why I was playing horrendously earlier xD). Once I make time, Imma edit that guide of mine again to include it, along with those long awaited edits on the general MU section.

Go for compilation then xD it works all the same and at least it won't be misleading.

We should fight again sometime. I still need more practice with that Villager MU xD Just hopefully lag won't mess with us like last time
 
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Darklink401

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Yep, Shulk's aim is to outspace, and ours is to outspeed. But For Glory won't do you much favors, I can promise ya that. You're better off fighting people from the forums, as there's a better chance of finding a rather strong player for an MU you're looking for.

I would practice those FAir walls, but lately I've been putting time to other things rather than practicing Smash. Gotta find me a job, and I still have my own projects to work on. But at least I figured something out yesterday after fighting Lore's friend then messing in training mode for a bit (mostly due to me trying to figure out why I was playing horrendously earlier xD). Once I make time, Imma edit that guide of mine again to include it, along with those long awaited edits on the general MU section.

Go for compilation then xD it works all the same and at least it won't be misleading.

We should fight again sometime. I still need more practice with that Villager MU xD Just hopefully lag won't mess with us like last time
True that. Someone should start a general "looking for X matchup" thread in the general section...XD

Or is that already a thing?

I HAVE fought a very good Shulk from here (Artryuu) but it was doubles, so I didn't get too much insight into it since doubles for me = utter chaos, most of the time. XD


And yeah, we definitely need to play again sometime~ Are you free wednesday?
 

EternalFlame

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True that. Someone should start a general "looking for X matchup" thread in the general section...XD

Or is that already a thing?

I HAVE fought a very good Shulk from here (Artryuu) but it was doubles, so I didn't get too much insight into it since doubles for me = utter chaos, most of the time. XD


And yeah, we definitely need to play again sometime~ Are you free wednesday?
Possibly. I'll be doing some school work in a bit, so perhaps when I'm taking a break or done I can squeeze in some matches (though based on my performance the last time I played, I can't promise much xD)
 

Darklink401

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Possibly. I'll be doing some school work in a bit, so perhaps when I'm taking a break or done I can squeeze in some matches (though based on my performance the last time I played, I can't promise much xD)
What do you mean, can't promise much? You're great XP
 

EternalFlame

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What do you mean, can't promise much? You're great XP
having not played Smash on a regular basis as of late, plus other fighters on my list, it feels a bit messed up xD Like I know the stuff to do, just actually doing them and trying to read my opponents properly is another. What happens when you play Smash > GG Xrd > KOF13 > Non fighting games on an irregular gaming schedule filled with project work, school work, church commitments, etc. Having all this on your plate will mess ya up on occassion xD
 

EternalFlame

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good to see those setups and attack strings in practice from people other than my circle of Marth players (mostly setups for Marth xD). Gonna need to make more time to practice and record xD
 

Darklink401

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One thing I've learned from watching that video, is that apparently side special (the first one) is good for combos and strings? XP
 

GREGORE

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Thanks guys ;) ur combo video is also very good. I like your bair off stage skills.

Yes, side b is a good combo starter. Just add neutral air then down tilt and grab ;)

It works very good vs close range chars.
 

EternalFlame

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One thing I've learned from watching that video, is that apparently side special (the first one) is good for combos and strings? XP
The Air DB setup is a good tool, but only if they don't see it coming and they don't match your range/speed. If they can beat you in either category, you better hope you catch them offguard, otherwise they will counter you xD Offstage usage is pretty nice, but lately all I do is just BAir them. I should probably put it to more use again like what Gregore's done, as it is harder counter off stage than on stage.

Though guys, be careful with the word combo again. Most of those were not true combos but attack strings (especially for Marth). We don't want to confuse other players about it xD
 
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Darklink401

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The Air DB setup is a good tool, but only if they don't see it coming and they don't match your range/speed. If they can beat you in either category, you better hope you catch them offguard, otherwise they will counter you xD Offstage usage is pretty nice, but lately all I do is just BAir them. I should probably put it to more use again like what Gregore's done, as it is harder counter off stage than on stage.

Though guys, be careful with the word combo again. Most of those were not true combos but attack strings (especially for Marth). We don't want to confuse other players about it xD
shtop bein a negative nancyyyy- *shot*

I'm pretty sure combo video basically is equivalent to montage at this point, with things like westballz's combo video being more of a compilation or string video.
 

Locuan

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shtop bein a negative nancyyyy- *shot*

I'm pretty sure combo video basically is equivalent to montage at this point, with things like westballz's combo video being more of a compilation or string video.
The thing is, some people don't know the difference between combo and string. Or they are not aware that some things they perform or see actually do not combo. We want to avoid misinformation.
 

Darklink401

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The thing is, some people don't know the difference between combo and string. Or they are not aware that some things they perform or see actually do not combo. We want to avoid misinformation.
I know, I know.

However, I'm sure if anyone cares enough to learn a string, they probably will figure out its not a combo once they try it, or even when they are practicing it.

But of course, that's jsut me being positive :3
 

EternalFlame

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I know, I know.

However, I'm sure if anyone cares enough to learn a string, they probably will figure out its not a combo once they try it, or even when they are practicing it.

But of course, that's jsut me being positive :3
I don't think that has anything to do with being positive xD And Im a positive person for the most part.

Seriously though, since we are in the forum, we want to avoid misinformation so we can be the best help to people. Its better to teach them the stuff straight up so they don't get disappointed or anything.
 

Darklink401

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I don't think that has anything to do with being positive xD And Im a positive person for the most part.

Seriously though, since we are in the forum, we want to avoid misinformation so we can be the best help to people. Its better to teach them the stuff straight up so they don't get disappointed or anything.
I know, Flamey o3o I wuz just kiddin.

I'm sure having the title as combo video but at least mentioning that its more of a compilation, just for asthetic value, is acceptable, yes?
 

Locuan

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Unfortunately, this is not a combo. It's a string. Your video points to a series of moves that when used in succession your opponent has the ability to DI away or air dodge depending on the situation. Your opponent did not react correctly to avoid your follow ups. The DB1 in the air does not combo into the Nair, so your opponent can shield. Additionally, the follow up to your throw could have been avoided via a jump or air dodge. There are other situations in that sequence as well. @ GREGORE GREGORE I'm moving this to the video thread to avoid misinformation.
 
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rugioh

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Looking for some outside advice on this match. I started it off well but I choked away my lead and lost. I clearly got way too impatient and missed punishes in places, but my biggest issue is trying to figure out what I couldve done better to cover my landings. Looking for an outside opinion on this match.
 

EternalFlame

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Looking for some outside advice on this match. I started it off well but I choked away my lead and lost. I clearly got way too impatient and missed punishes in places, but my biggest issue is trying to figure out what I couldve done better to cover my landings. Looking for an outside opinion on this match.
Might want to make it public, cus I can't watch it atm xD

I know, Flamey o3o I wuz just kiddin.

I'm sure having the title as combo video but at least mentioning that its more of a compilation, just for asthetic value, is acceptable, yes?
That's still misleading for a title xD I hate to be a stickler about it, but misinfo is misinfo, and we should avoid it if we really want to help the community. This shouldn't be only about ourselves when we post these sorts of videos after all xD

Unfortunately, this is not a combo. It's a string. Your video points to a series of moves that when used in succession your opponent has the ability to DI away or air dodge depending on the situation. Your opponent did not react correctly to avoid your follow ups. The DB1 in the air does not combo into the Nair, so your opponent can shield. Additionally, the follow up to your throw could have been avoided via a jump or air dodge. There are other situations in that sequence as well. @ GREGORE GREGORE I'm moving this to the video thread to avoid misinformation.
To add on to his point, every individual hit in this string could have been avoided/dodged/attacked out of. Reason why most of these are called setups is due to the fact that your opponents can get out of it if they do so correctly. Air DB setup for example is difficult to get out of it they don't know how; and even if they do, the timing is strict for some characters. The DTilt as well is similar, but a little easier to get out of for the grab followup.

DThrow to BAir technically is a combo, but at the percentage Gregor had the opponent at and the DI that was present, it did not truly connect. The Double jump to DB1 as well does not connect properly eiter if your opponent does anything other than trying to beat your range with an attack - Similarly with the DS at the end.

This isn't to say that the string itself wasn't nice, but against players that know what they're doing, you better hope to catch them off guard with every setup (which is every hit in the string really).
 
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Icebound

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What's the best way to upload a replay from the DS so we can view it on here?
 

Locuan

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What's the best way to upload a replay from the DS so we can view it on here?
Well, best way to record would be if you had a capture card. On the other hand, I have uploaded videos to my Youtube by recording the replays from from my phones camera since it's the only thing I have. It really doesn't matter. As long as we can see your video, we should be able to help you out :)
 

Icebound

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Well, best way to record would be if you had a capture card. On the other hand, I have uploaded videos to my Youtube by recording the replays from from my phones camera since it's the only thing I have. It really doesn't matter. As long as we can see your video, we should be able to help you out :)
Is Youtube the best method of uploading?
 

Icebound

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Sorry about that. Try now
I think you really have the fast falling Fairs and Nairs down. The first stock you had impeccable spacing.

PK Fire was giving you the most trouble. Have you tried spamming counter when you're being burned? It gives you invincibility frames and stops them from grabbing you. We all know that every Ness loves to grab + double Fair at low percents.

Have you tried approaching with Neutral B? He started adapting to you and shield grabbing a lot. For people that are spamming shield grab I usually jump and Neutral B. It's worth the risk because it'll cost them a stock.
 
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EternalFlame

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Sorry about that. Try now
Yep, we're good now xD

Icebound said, you had great spacing going down here, and this match could have gone either way really. Since I fight a Ness main more regularly than most other MUs, hopefully I can provide you with as much info as possible for this fight:

- in terms of covering your landing, you do have to space your attacks so you hit with the tip or the sour spot for the longer shield stun. However, you should know that either FAir or BAir will end with a bit of landing lag, so that's a potential risk. You still have your SB (neutral B) or DB (side B) to cover your landing, as they carry through even if you're about to touch the ground. NAir is also a good option if spaced correctly, and the first hit is a setup move for your other attacks as well. Mixing it up will make your opponent wary of just running in to shield then grab. Another practice you can implement is footstooling your opponent if you know they are chasing you on stage. I know an Ike main that made excellent usage of this when he knows he's being chased into a landing trap.

- One mistake that seems to catch you a lot is your underestimation of when Ness can still attack in the air. Twice he nailed you with a landing BAir because you drop your shield/tried to roll and got caught at the starting frames of it. This is likely just getting use to the MU, but never expect Ness to be out of an option until he lands and be careful when you choose to roll. Here, it would help for you to go for out of shield options like grabbing or shield cancel jumping + DS (Up B). Those will serve you well against any character that does a single hit air attack.

- walking/running shield will be a saving grace in this MU, since the Ness was definitely trying to space you with PK fire. Thing with that move is that it is commitment heavy, so if you're able to perfect shield it or shield cancel jump after it connects, you'll be in great shape to press forward and apply more pressure to him. You don't want to give Ness the space to projectile spam, but at the same point, you can't allow Ness to pressure you from his air game. You have to make them feel like any option is not safe, and based on the previous iterations, Marth has the advantage due to him being able to outrange Ness on most close range encounters (he just might try to outspeed you is all).

- making use of your other options would help too I'd say. Your FAirs can be protected with a SB or DB (FAir assault in other words). FTilt and UTilt would assist more with anti air stuff, though judging from your movement, you already know this. It also wouldn't hurt to mix it up with a grab attempt here and there, since those set you up into more ideal positions for you rack up more damage.

+ Other than the FAirs, NAirs, and BAirs, your Marth playstyle is similar to mine, which is being passive aggressive. I could be wrong, but it seems you don't necessarily full agro your opponent, but you do leave baits to see which of the two your opponent will bite (whether they are agro or defensive) then you go in and make them pay for it. Understanding your own playstyle can help with figuring out what you need to do in the given situation.

+ I'll restate the point that your spacing was on point and the short hopping movement was excellent too. You did get hasty with your attacks, but that's something you've corrected yourself on. Fundamentals wise, your Marth is rather strong with that. Not much really needs to be changed in terms of what you do, just a few notes listed above that could press you in the direction you want to go with Marth. There are other setups and stuff that could help your playstyle, but that will be up to you to pick up or not, as it's not necessary with Marth to know for him to be successful I'd say.


Anyways, that's all I've got for now xD hopefully this will be of assistance to you.

...

Have you tried approaching with Neutral B? He started adapting to you and shield grabbing a lot. For people that are spamming shield grab I usually jump and Neutral B. It's worth the risk because it'll cost them a stock.
I would be wary of using your SB to approach though, since that has a lot of commitment after the move is thrown. Its ok to mix it up with this option, but don't count on it all the time otherwise your opponent can just dodge through/perfect shield/counter past it. Trust me, I learned this the hard way xD
 

rugioh

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Thanks man, I'll digest all of this and try to work on being more patient and powershielding the PK fires, then trying to press the advantage. Its unfortunate this thread seems kind of dead, but I'll try to keep posting some of my stuff for analysis or so it can hopefully encourage others to keep playing marth too.
 

Icebound

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Yep, we're good now xD

Icebound said, you had great spacing going down here, and this match could have gone either way really. Since I fight a Ness main more regularly than most other MUs, hopefully I can provide you with as much info as possible for this fight:

- in terms of covering your landing, you do have to space your attacks so you hit with the tip or the sour spot for the longer shield stun. However, you should know that either FAir or BAir will end with a bit of landing lag, so that's a potential risk. You still have your SB (neutral B) or DB (side B) to cover your landing, as they carry through even if you're about to touch the ground. NAir is also a good option if spaced correctly, and the first hit is a setup move for your other attacks as well. Mixing it up will make your opponent wary of just running in to shield then grab. Another practice you can implement is footstooling your opponent if you know they are chasing you on stage. I know an Ike main that made excellent usage of this when he knows he's being chased into a landing trap.

- One mistake that seems to catch you a lot is your underestimation of when Ness can still attack in the air. Twice he nailed you with a landing BAir because you drop your shield/tried to roll and got caught at the starting frames of it. This is likely just getting use to the MU, but never expect Ness to be out of an option until he lands and be careful when you choose to roll. Here, it would help for you to go for out of shield options like grabbing or shield cancel jumping + DS (Up B). Those will serve you well against any character that does a single hit air attack.

- walking/running shield will be a saving grace in this MU, since the Ness was definitely trying to space you with PK fire. Thing with that move is that it is commitment heavy, so if you're able to perfect shield it or shield cancel jump after it connects, you'll be in great shape to press forward and apply more pressure to him. You don't want to give Ness the space to projectile spam, but at the same point, you can't allow Ness to pressure you from his air game. You have to make them feel like any option is not safe, and based on the previous iterations, Marth has the advantage due to him being able to outrange Ness on most close range encounters (he just might try to outspeed you is all).

- making use of your other options would help too I'd say. Your FAirs can be protected with a SB or DB (FAir assault in other words). FTilt and UTilt would assist more with anti air stuff, though judging from your movement, you already know this. It also wouldn't hurt to mix it up with a grab attempt here and there, since those set you up into more ideal positions for you rack up more damage.

+ Other than the FAirs, NAirs, and BAirs, your Marth playstyle is similar to mine, which is being passive aggressive. I could be wrong, but it seems you don't necessarily full agro your opponent, but you do leave baits to see which of the two your opponent will bite (whether they are agro or defensive) then you go in and make them pay for it. Understanding your own playstyle can help with figuring out what you need to do in the given situation.

+ I'll restate the point that your spacing was on point and the short hopping movement was excellent too. You did get hasty with your attacks, but that's something you've corrected yourself on. Fundamentals wise, your Marth is rather strong with that. Not much really needs to be changed in terms of what you do, just a few notes listed above that could press you in the direction you want to go with Marth. There are other setups and stuff that could help your playstyle, but that will be up to you to pick up or not, as it's not necessary with Marth to know for him to be successful I'd say.


Anyways, that's all I've got for now xD hopefully this will be of assistance to you.


I would be wary of using your SB to approach though, since that has a lot of commitment after the move is thrown. Its ok to mix it up with this option, but don't count on it all the time otherwise your opponent can just dodge through/perfect shield/counter past it. Trust me, I learned this the hard way xD
@ EternalFlame EternalFlame

Yeah, the approaching with SB isn't something that should be used often for high levels of play. I mainly use it in FG when there is enough lag where people shielding wouldn't nomally be able to put it up fast enough.
 
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EternalFlame

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Thanks man, I'll digest all of this and try to work on being more patient and powershielding the PK fires, then trying to press the advantage. Its unfortunate this thread seems kind of dead, but I'll try to keep posting some of my stuff for analysis or so it can hopefully encourage others to keep playing marth too.
It is school time, so its to be expected that it's not as populated as usual really. Even I've stopped making videos till I have more of the school work sorted out.

@ EternalFlame EternalFlame

Yeah, the approaching with SB isn't something that should be used often for high levels of play. I mainly use it in FG when there is enough lag where people shielding wouldn't nomally be able to put it up fast enough.
Sometimes it can catch them off guard, but just don't make it into too much of a habit if you aim to get better at Smash. Know what can be punished, and learn ways around it or avoid it if all else fails. Then again, FG doesn't really help you get better unless you run into someone that knows what they're doing xD
 

rugioh

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One question I have about this match here is that against players who cover their approach behind projectiles, what is the safest option to avoid taking a grab? I've tried to powershield and retaliate but it doesn't seem worth it.

Also, against people who approach with dash attack/dash grab/roll back as their only options, what should I do to play around it? Often I'll get hit and grabbed out of the startup of my aerials, so I'm stumped about this one. Its frustrating because I can tell I'm improving, but then I run into basic players who use very basic approaches and I can't stop them from imposing their dash attack/grab mindgames on me.
 

EternalFlame

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One question I have about this match here is that against players who cover their approach behind projectiles, what is the safest option to avoid taking a grab? I've tried to powershield and retaliate but it doesn't seem worth it.

Also, against people who approach with dash attack/dash grab/roll back as their only options, what should I do to play around it? Often I'll get hit and grabbed out of the startup of my aerials, so I'm stumped about this one. Its frustrating because I can tell I'm improving, but then I run into basic players who use very basic approaches and I can't stop them from imposing their dash attack/grab mindgames on me.
Powershielding was more for the purpose of getting closer, but in this case, Mario is using the fireball to get closer to you. Remember that because its a powershield, you can go for your fastest option (DTilt) if they are within range to interrupt their grab/dash attack. Another option is to SH after the fireball come in contact with your shield and go for an Aerial to intercept Mario before he gets to you or play defensive with this. A third option is to spot dodge as soon as the fireball comes in contact with the shield, which is a similar principle to the jump. The tactic is something I use too with my Mario, but its betting on the fact that you'll stay in shield to block the initial hit and anticipate a dash attack.

Dash attacks really leave players wide open, but it depends on their spacing when they do it that will determine the means to deal with it. But dash attacks are typically only a single hit, so as soon as you hear the sound of it hitting your shield, you're free to let it go and attack back. Another thing you can do is spot dodge, as that will avoid the dash attack and dash grab and leave them open - but first to need to anticipate that your opponent will do that. Remember that as a Marth player, you have to be good at reading your opponent, and you'll need it even for basic strategies like these. Each player has a playstyle they follow, which is why as basic as it is, without being able to read them correctly will always pose a problem. If you can read their playstyle, you'll be able to throw your attacks ahead of time and expect them to run into it. DB is an excellent tool for that reason, since it will beat out approaches like that with ease. But if they get the idea to roll behind you, then you'll have to train them to think its relatively safe, then do something else. Condition your opponent to do as you want them to after reading them, then from basic to advanced players, they will fall to the traps you set.

Another thing is I sense a bit of pride coming from ya, since you did call it basic strategies for basic players. I'm guilty of doing similar in the past, and that pride will only lead to frustration and will cloud your judgement. The answer to any strategy may be as plain as day, but you must stay calm, focused, and determined to find it. Pride has a bad habit of causing players to assume their ability is better, and thus once their strategy stops working, they continue to rely on it regardless and fall for the conditioning the opponent places on them. If the strategy is basic, then there's a basic strategy to beat it. But more importantly, will you recognize that while in battle? To this end, you must discard preconceptions of your opponent and analyse them as carefully as any other opponent. Now I could be wrong about what I got from ya, but consider it general advice if anyone seems to feel the way I described.
 
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EternalFlame

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
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525
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Eterna1Flame
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Good tips, appreciate it. You're right, I need to be humble and just let the process happen.
Don't worry dude, you've got this ^^ Got the promise of a good Smash player in ya if ya caught onto this concept already, just remember the goal of your training and keep pressing forward - let nothing blind you from your real reason to play and improve.

Oh right, there is one other thing you can do, which is to SH air dodge > FAir/NAir. You can approach this way, knowing that he'll try to throw a fireball, then you simply jump past it then quickly retaliate.
 
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Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
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ShinEmblemLord
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Lots of matches.

My long set vs Raziek's Robin. Rip me open on that one since it's my first time fighting a Robin. And he is probably the second strongest Robin, with only Nairo being better. He is certainly the most knowledgeable imo.


Then several matches vs a training partner. Link and Lucario. Any criticism is much appreciated.



 
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