Greninja Stage Discussion Thread

[mimgrim]

So I noticed upon the plethora of threads among this section that there really wasn't a central thread for discussing stages Greninja is good and bad on so I figured it would be beneficial to make one. I'm not going to do anything to fancy with the thread so feel free to discuss multiple stages at one (However, if we get enough good discussion I might update OP then to make it easier for newer players to find the good/bad stages but I don't expect anything like that to happen for a good while). Though I do ask that you keep the discussed stages reasonable, as in stages that are commonly seen in tournament rules.

If you guys want a starting point then I suggest Battlefield.

 

[joaoTforce]

Well, I play the 3ds version and I don't like BF very much. My favorite stages are prism tower and FD. Also I HATE yoshi's island because if you're on the edge, your shuriken gets cancelled if you shoot them towards the middle of the stage.

 

[FullMoon]

I don't Battlefield is good for Greninja, the platforms prevent us from using Up-Smash a lot of times and since it's our best kill move, that's really bad. Plus the platforms in general are just super annoying.

I think the best stages for Greninja on Wii U are Town and City, Halberd and Delfino Plaza due to their lower ceiling allowing Up-Air, Up-Smash and Up-Throw to kill earlier.

A little quirk about Wuhu Island is that in the beach portion of it, Shadow Sneak is completely invisible there, so it's something that could justify playing there, I guess.

 

[mimgrim]

Interesting. Personally think BF is a good stage for Greninja because of his SH and FH height. They height of his SH and FH is actually very useful. Just short of being able to jump onto them with SH or FH but enough to easily attack anyone on the platforms. I don't see how the stage is anything but good for him, in all honesty.

PS2 is also an interesting stage for him. He seems to benefit rather good from the base-layout of the stage and likes most of the transformations still.

 

[David Galanos]

I agree that BF is a bad stage for Greninja, I always ban it.

 

[Kite0692]

Actually I think Battlefield is really good depending on the matchup. Yes, you can't use Usmash under the platform because it doesn't hit, but that's it. The platforms help mixing up the recovery a lot. Maybe Usmash doesn't work under platform, but Utilt does (and SH Uair). The upper platform can help to continue the pressure after Uthrow-Uair combos.

Battlefield IMO is a good stage, it just sucks when you play in it vs guys like or . Is not a stage to take characters with good juggling game.

 

[Marilink]

I want to do a write-up on why I think that Battlefield is actually one of Greninja's best stages, but I'm in class right now and wouldn't be able to focus on it. For now I'll just give a quick list of what I think are Greninja's Good, Bad, and Neutral stages (based on the Apex stage list). Feel free to debate me on these, I'm interested to see what you guys think.

Good:
Battlefield
Delfino*
Duck Hunt
Halberd*
Town and City

(* = only good against characters who can't kill vertically as well as we can--namely, Rosa, Diddy, ROB, possibly Yoshi)

Neutral:
Omega Stages with Walls
Smashville
Lylat
Kongo Jungle

Bad:
Final Destination
Castle Seige
Delfino*
Halberd*

(* = only bad if the other character can kill vertically more easily than we can--see above)

Those are my feelings. When I'm not in class, I'll defend why I think this stuff.

 

[FullMoon]

I would put Kongo Jungle into bad. Not only does it have a higher ceiling and so we take longer to get upward kills, but the way the main platform is structured, opponents can get away from our shurikens by staying on lower middle portion of it, making our shurikens less useful.

I also think Lylat is bad because shurikens are once again hard to use there. Plus if you use Shadow Sneak on the ground, it won't make you reappear on the ground, you'll go fully horizontally as if you were in the air. It can be a bit irritating because Shadow Sneak doesn't really stop at the ledge like normal. I've lost a match before due to not knowing that.

Final Destination is pretty neutral as far as I'm concerned. And of course I've already given my opinion on Battlefield.

 

[mimgrim]

I want to address the whole BF platform and Usmash thing real quick - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-RRq5yMpTc#t=146 <--- Amsa still managed to sweet-spot Usmash at 2:26 despite the platform.

 

[Coffee™]

I would put Kongo Jungle into bad. Not only does it have a higher ceiling and so we take longer to get upward kills, but the way the main platform is structured, opponents can get away from our shurikens by staying on lower middle portion of it, making our shurikens less useful

Agreed.

I also think Lylat is bad because shurikens are once again hard to use there. Plus if you use Shadow Sneak on the ground, it won't make you reappear on the ground, you'll go fully horizontally as if you were in the air. It can be a bit irritating because Shadow Sneak doesn't really stop at the ledge like normal. I've lost a match before due to not knowing that.

So I just found out that Lylat is probably one of his better stages as far as ones with platforms go. The angles, platform layout and height as well as the tilting of the stage really lends itself nicely as a crutch to help mitigate just how precise Greninja has to be when spacing his moves. In addition it's incredibly easy to stage spike or just straight up trap people under the stage with Bair. Hydro Pump can also put people in some pretty silly situations there.

Final Destination is pretty neutral as far as I'm concerned. And of course I've already given my opinion on Battlefield.

Imo, Greninja generally likes all of the larger flat stages as it allows his mobility options to shine without "X" to hamper him.

I want to address the whole BF platform and Usmash thing real quick - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-RRq5yMpTc#t=146 <--- Amsa still managed to sweet-spot Usmash at 2:26 despite the platform.

He wasn't standing on the platform when he got hit.

 

[Marilink]

Ok, I'm ok with Kongo as "bad," I have very limited experience on that stage (maybe 1 set total). I remember not liking it, but I didn't know if that was because of Greninja or Me.

 

[FullMoon]

If I were to rank stages myself:

Best:

- Town and City
- Duck Hunt

Good (in most MUs):

- Final Destination
- Halberd
- Delfino Plaza

Neutral:

- Battlefield (I still don't like it much. But I suppose it does have some benefits to it)
- Smashville
- Lylat Cruise (I still don't like it much, but @ Coffee™ did say it had some good things, but at the same time it makes shurikens and Shadow Sneak a bit awkward to use so... It kinda evens out I guess.)

Bad:

- Castle Siege
- Kongo Jungle

I don't think there are any MUs that can be problematic in Town and City and Duck Hunt, so those two are probably going to be the stages Greninja play more often. They both have an advantage to themselves that makes which one you choose depend on what you think is better (Town and City has a lower ceiling, Duck Hunt has no Z-Axis so F-Smash and F-Air can't miss randomly). While FD, Halberd and Delfino depend more on who you're going against.

 

[joaoTforce]

for the 3ds version I would put it like this:


Good:
prism tower
final destination

Neutral:
Battlefield

Bad:
Yoshi's Island
Arena Ferox

But that's just my opinion

 

[1up_Regal]

Some stuff about BF.

Pros:
- We can use the platforms to create "traps" more easily than in other stages. Moves like Uthrow at lower %, or Dtilt and Dthrow at higher %.
- We can apply pressure really easily, and most importantly, safely, if your opponent is at one of the platforms, using SH aerials for the lower ones, and FH aerials for the higher one.
- It's one of the few stages that we can try to edge guard with FH Dair, miss it and recover.
- Its platforms can help us recover high, if we want to. We can always aim our recover to them, and cancel our momentum, or simply go through them, carrying it.

Cons:
- It's platforms can mess up our setups, especially the ones that involve Usmash or uair spikes, and greninja is all about the setups.
- They can also get in the way of our movement options.
- BF's ceiling is high, and most of our moves that kill vertically are hard to setup on the platforms anyway.

I think BF is an overall neutral to bad stage for greninja. Maybe it's the worst starter for us. Characters that like to control a lot of space, like Rosalina and DHD (sorry amsa, but i think it was a bad CP), can get a little edge over us there, since we can't use all of our options to approach or punish. I can't think of a reason to use it as a CP over any other one of our good stages.

My opinion about the other stages is pretty similar to FullMoon's. I just think we should start considering Omega Flat Zone X as one of our good stages. It doesn't have a Z-axis, and unlike Omega Duck Hunt and Omega Pacland, we can use it's edges to stage spike. There's no reason to pick FD over it.

 

[Marilink]

Man, I hate playing on FD. What makes it good for us? I feel like I have such limited approach options without platforms.

 

[FullMoon]

Man, I hate playing on FD. What makes it good for us? I feel like I have such limited approach options without platforms.

Well, so do our opponents. Against characters without spammable projectiles such as Marth, Meta Knight, Bowser, etc. it's a pretty good stage because we'll be limiting their approaches with Water Shuriken a lot. Forcing them to approach by either jumping over them, dash shielding them or by rolling. Which leaves us in a pretty favorable position to deal with them.

Don't bring characters like Bowser.Jr and Little Mac there though.

 

[Marilink]

I guess I just rarely play against non-projectile users, then.

 

[Marilink]

Cons:
- It's platforms can mess up our setups, especially the ones that involve Usmash or uair spikes, and greninja is all about the setups.
- They can also get in the way of our movement options.
- BF's ceiling is high, and most of our moves that kill vertically are hard to setup on the platforms anyway.

I don't think these cons are enough to make it our worst starter. Smashville's platform gets in my way far more than BF's platforms, because they are at least stationary and easy to plan around. I also think that they give us more movement options, with Platform Shadow Sneaking and general use of platforms for mobility and evasion and high recovery. Also, BF's ceiling is high, but you can use the platforms to chain Uairs unlike either of the other two starters, and it's really not any higher than FD would be--but with the added advantage of having higher platforms to get you closer to the precious ceiling.

I would actually say that BF is my favorite Starter for Greninja (unless Town and City is a starter in your scene).

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Interesting, I've always liked BF, Town and City and Lylat since Greninja's jumps are so awesome he can leap across the platforms and the stage very smoothly. I find it actually helps in matchups which require an aggressive approach, although Lylat's tilting can mess with shurikens. Halberd's low ceiling and Delfino's shrinking blast zones can be exploited by Greninja, but many other characters can do this too.

Also, it probably just means I need to up my game but I've always hated playing as Greninja on Duck Hunt because the far camera makes it harder for me to auto cancel aerials on landing, if only slightly.

 

[FullMoon]

So I'm pretty convinced Town and City is the absolute best stage for Greninja at this point for quite a few reasons:

- It has a lower ceiling, not that lower than usual, but still significant.
- The platforms don't get in the way as much as Battlefield's thanks to there having more space between them and the fact that at points they go away and when they're around you get all the benefits platforms grant Greninja without them being getting in the way as often.
- The main platform is flat, this is great because Halberd does have the issue of uneven terrain that can really mess up our shuriken game.
- The main platform is solid and has edges. A problem I frequently have with Halberd, Delfino, Duck Hunt, etc is that I can't stage spike people in it with B-Air, which is something Greninja is really good at doing it's a real game changer for him.
- This is more of a personal preference, but the stage is large, which allows Greninja to move around more freely and so he can make better use of his mobility there.

Overall Town and City seems like the perfect stage for Greninja, the only problem with it is that the platforms in the City portion of the stage can get in the way of Up-Smash but that's manageable.

If people ban T&C then I usually go for Final Destination next, unless my opponent really benefits from it (more obvious with Little Mac), at that point I go for Smashville or Halberd instead.

But yeah Town and City is best Greninja stage.

 

[David Galanos]

I agree. My favorite stages as him are Town and city, Delfino, and Halberd. Also, I stopped banning Lylat, I think it's ok for him. I still connect up smash and like the platforms to mess around with juggling and combos, punishing missed techs and what not

 

[Ludiloco]

Good:
Battlefield - Maybe just the stage I know the best, I find the platforms very beneficial for our juggling game and don't really hamper our kill power off the top.
Lylat - Edge guard heaven, up smash and tilt hit through the platforms, we have safe recovery options without needing to sweetspot the ledge
Halberd - Low ceiling with very few walk offs, easy to stage spike and hydro gimp

Neutral:
Smashville - is neutral for everyone.
Omegas with areas for easy stage spiking
Castle Siege - 2nd form is awful, 1st offers nothing special and 3rd is easy stage spikes
Delfino - Low ceiling favors us, walk offs and campy areas do not.
Duck Hunt - The tree is nice to escape to with HP and we get a nice vertical kill boost from it. Annoying edge guard stage due to long blast zones, a flat stage otherwise is annoying against campy characters.
T&C - Platforms are a nice kill boost, I'd consider this a bit better than Smashville

Bad:
FD - We get camped to oblivion and our juggle game is weakened
Omegas with no easy stage spike areas
Kongo - Highest ceiling in the game, I've had a Donkey Kong survive an up smash at 125%. Pits around the stage are huge, barrel gives a safe option for characters otherwise easily gimped

 

[Marilink]

^I think T&C is definitely in the Good category over Neutral.

 

[Drexel]

I am in the midst of writing a Greninja guide with stage selection tips and I'd like to give my take.

I've been looking at a few of the stages for both 3DS and WiiU, (more so WiiU) and here is my take.

-Battlefield on both 3DS and WiiU seems to be mixed on opinion but I actually like this one for Greninja. The platforms assist in our aerial juggling game as well as offer us camping protection so that we can charge our shurikens more safely without worrying about getting punished by an aerial from above. Plus Greninja is able to Platform Shadow Sneak for some cool edgeguarding on the left side of the stage, (due to the Auto DI pull to the lower left), right side of the stage works too, just I feel not as well. The only downside I see is that it is very hard, (and somewhat useless) to Wall Plant for some awesome edgeguarding with Hydro Pumps, BAirs, etc, as well as recovery mixup. Other than that, this is a good stage.

-Lylat Cruise I have mixed feelings about but it is also a good stage. The plaforms are great for Greninja to poke with the UTilt, (combo starter), and the USmash becomes more effective with the platform protection. Edgeguarding potential is amazing because of Platform Shadow Sneak, Hydro Pump, etc. Like Battlefield though, no Wall Kick/Wall Plant to take full advantage of Hydro Pump, and because of the rocking motion of the stage, full charged shurikens get tampered with a bit.

-Town and City I too feel is one of Greninja's best stages so I don't think I need to explain it since some of you already have.

-Halberd. I love this stage for Greninja and for most matchups. Low ceiling heightens our offensive potential with UTilt > UAir as well as our USmash and Hydro Pump gimps above us for some nice KOs. On the floating platform, the only problem is the little drop section in the middle which allows smaller characters like Kirby and Jiggly to crouch underneath our shurikens, but on the Halberd itself, Greninja can have a blast with the many edgeguarding options we have.

-FD is a mixed bag. Against characters that don't have camping ability like Donkey Kong, Bowser, Marth. Lucina, Ike, this is a decent stage. Flat stages make those shurikens our friend in those matchups for some cheap damage and while there are no platforms to assist us in our juggling game, Greninja doesn't really need that help against the characters you should take there. However, this can be a nightmare stage against characters like Duck Hunt and Link who can zone you out with all their projectiles, so this is a stage you should only pick against a character who is forced to approach you.

-Castle Siege is bad on some levels. All three forms in some way stop our shuriken game. The first has uneven terrain, the second has those statues and the third's platform rocks, (no, not as in it's good). Just like Lylat, the rocking platform hinders our shuriken game. The few things I do see that are good are that the first form has walls that are able to be Wall-Kicked or Planted for our Hydro Pump/edgeguard game, the second has platforms to assist out high end aerial juggles, (but most of the time they get in the way). So yeah, this one should be banned in most cases.

-Kongo Jungle I hate. Flat out HATE, and most of you have explained why. This one is a must ban if you are Greninja.

I plan on analyzing more 3DS stages today to see what I think of them for my guide so I'll be sure to offer my thoughts.

 

[McDuckletts]

I know this stage is banned at most major tournaments, but how good is Skyloft for Greninja? Some of the landmarks and platforms during the traveling segments look like they could be good for him, but I wouldn't know since I don't go to that stage too often.

 

[Funkermonster]

Been playing on Halberd quite a bit lately and I'm lovin' here quite a bit! Low ceiling makes it easier to kill opponents than it usually is, and I've gotten more mileage out of Uthrow >Uair (sometimes even just Uthrow by itself kills) than I normally do. In addition, the platform ain't too big a deal, its pretty easy to get gimps here, and sharking with Uair is always fun. Probably my favorite stage to go right now besides Town and City.

And yeah, Battlefield gets a ban forever from me, I always hate going there. Usmash is so hard utilize with the platforms and killing is pretty problematic thanks to them. Platforms can save them from the Uthrow > Uair juggles and Uair spiking isn't that effective here either. With the smaller size, I don't even get to put Greninja's mobility to good use either. I haven't found much of a reason to go to Castle Siege, and I always ban that. Has anyone found any merit from it?

 

[Heropon_Riki]

Been playing on Halberd quite a bit lately and I'm lovin' here quite a bit! Low ceiling makes it easier to kill opponents than it usually is, and I've gotten more mileage out of Uthrow >Uair (sometimes even just Uthrow by itself kills) than I normally do. In addition, the platform ain't too big a deal, its pretty easy to get gimps here, and sharking with Uair is always fun. Probably my favorite stage to go right now besides Town and City.

And yeah, Battlefield gets a ban forever from me, I always hate going there. Usmash is so hard utilize with the platforms and killing is pretty problematic thanks to them. Platforms can save them from the Uthrow > Uair juggles and Uair spiking isn't that effective here either. With the smaller size, I don't even get to put Greninja's mobility to good use either. I haven't found much of a reason to go to Castle Siege, and I always ban that. Has anyone found any merit from it?

Castle Siege just seems bad all around. It's a third a really small stage with no breathing room, a third a stage way to big with statues that eat up water shurikens, and a third just a FD mix with lylat.

 

[Ludiloco]

Not to mention Castle Siege has walk offs, which rarely favor our relatively weak f and b throws and poor neutral game

 

[mimgrim]

poor neutral game

I know it is off topic but I seriously want to beat this misconception to the ground.

http://smashboards.com/threads/tips...eninja-q-a-thread.368763/page-6#post-18936683

Greninja's neutral game is actually really good.

 

[Ludiloco]

I know it is off topic but I seriously want to beat this misconception to the ground.

http://smashboards.com/threads/tips...eninja-q-a-thread.368763/page-6#post-18936683

Greninja's neutral game is actually really good.

Greninja's bait and punish game is very good is what I'm seeing, and I'd agree with that.

 

[mimgrim]

Greninja's bait and punish game is very good is what I'm seeing, and I'd agree with that.

Baiting and punishing is the ENTIRETY of the neutral game.

 

[Zionaze]

Whats the best stage to hide shadow sneak on both 3ds and wii u versions?

 

[mimgrim]

Black stages. So like Pictochat or that one Omega GnW stage.

 

[Zionaze]

Is pictochat even l3gal

 

[mimgrim]

Nah. I just said it as an obvious example of a black stage. :L

 

[LumpyGravy]

With Halberd I like how you can get absurdly early kills by dragging opponents into the vertical blast zone with up air, but it isn't as conducive to running away as Town and City and Delfino are. Plus passive edge guarding with fully charged shurikens isn't a thing because of the slopes on the main stage. Shurikens in neutral aren't affected that much because it's typically not a move you use when you have stage control anyway (unless they're off the stage obviously).

I much prefer Halberd for doubles since it's even easier to catch airborne opponents off guard with up air and net early kills because of the heavy commotion of doubles in addition to Greninja's crazy vertical mobility.

 

[Lawliet626]

what about omega windy hill zone?? it has walls and the shadow from shadow sneak is pretty hard to see

 

[LumpyGravy]

I don't like walls because you a can't stage spike people with bair, a good edge guarding method as Greninja. Omega Flat Zone conceals shadow sneak and permits stage spiking. I can't remember what the body of Omega Norfair looks like but it also conceals shadow sneak well.

 

[KERO]

As far as Omegas go, I feel the two best are Luigi's Mansion and Norfair. With the former, we get all the best omegas have to offer. The strange lip of Luigi's allows us to still get stage spikes while giving us a wall to cling to (extra double jump). Additionally, I find it nearly impossible to die from bouncing off the side of the stage because the ledge itself, to my knowledge, cannot be bounced off of (we get pushed under it if we HP into it during a non-auto ledge sweetspot portion of HP and then grab it as HP ends). Even if we bounce off the side, we bounce right onto the ledge, grabbing it. Finally, Shadow Sneak is well-concealed. Norfair has essentially everything that Luigi's Mansion has except we can still potentially bounce off its ledge. On the other hand, Shadow Sneak is 100% invisible on that stage for some reason.

Edit: We should also be cautious of CPing omegas with grass as grass gives characters better ground traction for some reason, meaning our hyphen Usmashes won't slide as far (Duck Hunt is exempt from this rule thankfully).

As far as stages I personally really enjoy go, they're Town and City (low ceiling, platforms we can leap to with one jump, lots of space), Delfino (we can move around so much here, and the smaller blast zones can help us net early kills with Uair, Fsmash, Fair, etc.,), Duck Hunt (soooo much space, and we can leap to the top of the tree very comfortably with two jumps. The ducks also allow us to stall with Dair and the 2D nature of the stage allows us to hit with Fsmash up close), and potentially Halberd once I learn the timing to punish airdodges onto platforms with Usmash's second hit (Uthrow essentially kills 20% earlier on Halberd, not even taking into account grabbing someone on that platform).

As for stages I don't like, those would be Battlefield (high ceiling, irritating platform arrangement, and little space to run around, but still good in certain MUs, especially as we can still apply pressure on platforms via Utilt and Bair), Smashville (people can sit on that platform, surprisingly safe from Greninja, and it's small), Lylat (imo, the worst stage once Kongo is out. Limits our Shuriken game, platform arrangement is horrendous for Usmash, even making timing that second hit on airdodges differ depending on the stage's tilt, another high ceiling, and Shadow Sneak can potentially glitch Greninja into the middle of the stage only to fall through it), Castle Siege (first phase is way too small while third phase's tilts are very awkward for Greninja, but the second phase is at least wonderful for running away), and of course Kongo Jungle (Barrel can thwart attempts to recover low, ceiling is ludicrously high, and the divot hampers shuriken use, but at least we can circle camp fairly well here).

 

[PokemonyeWest]

3DS version player here. I like Battlefield well enough. Not my preferred stage with Greninja. Omega Brinstar, Omega Flat Zone, Prism Tower are all my favorite stages to play as Greninja because: they all have lips, making stage spikes with Bair a godly thing, and the first two conceal shadow sneak (can't tell you how much I love a surprise shadow sneak)