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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

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StormC

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
8,213
But why is it the K Rool thread's responsibility to encourage you for feeling happy about Cloud? You know what the thread was for, right? People whose main Smash Bros want was King K Rool. It wasn't a thread for Cloud. Go hang out in the Cloud thread if you wanted to talk about him.

Am I losing my mind? I really don't recall this bizarre mindset for any other Smash game, and I've been using Nintendo forums pre-Brawl. When did the sudden change come about where we all had to hold hands and sing kumbaya around a campfire every time some stupid freak no one wants gets added to the game?
It's being polite. It's a public forum. Not saying they had to all say Cloud was awesome and great and the coolest. It's one thing to be like "eh, I didn't really want that character, but oh well," but some posters get downright vicious when a character is announced that isn't theirs. It's the same fan tribalism nonsense that encourages console wars, Marvel vs. DC, and so on. It's also a negative for the cause if you want people to join it; there's quite a few people on SmashBoards who said before that they stopped supporting K. Rool publicly because they felt the fans acted poorly. Whether or not that's valid, it's good to try to seem welcoming if you want more people to join it.

So are you using these threads as social threads or what?
I'm posting about characters in Smash, same as everyone.
 
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xpnc

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
1,367
Location
Canada
NNID
RexTurbocool
Switch FC
SW-4209-5138-9019
.
I’m not any less of a fan because I won’t take away from others to get my character
Objectively false

A lot of people have graduated middle school since then.
Sick mic drop maybe someone will put it in their sig

It's being polite. It's a public forum. Not saying they had to all say Cloud was awesome and great and the coolest. It's one thing to be like "eh, I didn't really want that character, but oh well," but some posters get downright vicious when a character is announced that isn't theirs. It's the same fan tribalism nonsense that encourages console wars, Marvel vs. DC, and so on. It's also a negative for the cause if you want people to join it; there's quite a few people on SmashBoards who said before that they stopped supporting K. Rool publicly because they felt the fans acted poorly. Whether or not that's valid, it's good to try to seem welcoming if you want more people to join it.



I'm posting about characters in Smash, same as everyone.
Didn't read
 

AugustusB

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
2,527
Location
Texas
If we’re still doing Geno headcanons:

Geno enjoys pumpkin pie and no one can tell me otherwise.
Honestly...I could see that as well. Seems like they would really enjoy it.

Speaking of headcanons: Geno can't eat/taste while possesing the puppet and tends to forget that. Thus, they clean themselves constantly.
 
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wynn728

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Messages
1,380
Since there's talks about trading fighters I would say I'm willing to just cut Piranha Plant for nothing and willing to trade all three Mii Fighters for one character. The Mii Fighters were a good idea on paper and were something I wanted for a long time, but they just weren't implemented correctly and still feel bleh. I play as almost the entire roster except for any of the Mii Fighters.
 

ForsakenM

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
1,984
You've heard of Suplex City, well let me take you down Typing For Days Lane straight to Huge Ass Postropolis! :happysheep:

Lots of things to cover and more things keep popping up.


As both a lifelong Smash Bros AND Yugioh player, I can corroborate this. Sadly, both fanbases are also notoriously jam-packed with bad sports and sore losers that rage over the dumbest things. At least the advent of Smash Ultimate seems to have FINALLY started to choke out the melee scene in general, and by extension, the elitism. It's nice to see the 5 gods finally retiring or moving on to the latest game so as to unify the smash fanbase as a whole. I mean, melee is great and all, and it's had a phenomenal run, but cmon people, it's time to move on. Leave behind all those exploitable glitches and step into the beauty of HD and a roster that's more than triple the size. (Sean Connery voice): Let it go.

Seriously though, what the FREAK is up with the whole stanky thing at tournaments?! Does nobody shower? I mean, living with your mom at 30 is one thing, but can nobody smell their own B.O.? smh
It's strategic: if they quit because they can't stand your stench, then that's a win.

If they hold on despite the stench, then they are a true competitor!

Also, didn't you know that time spent keeping up your personal hygiene is time spent NOT training? FOR SHAME!
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On a more serious note, let me address something I'm seeing that I don't agree with.

Turn-based. You shouldn't outright discard the original battle system in a remake. Improve upon it, but don't completely change it. I'm already never getting the remake of VII cause it's a complete turn-off for me. I never found KH fun to play at all. The menus work fine when it's ATB or just slow turn-based. In here it's too fast and makes it difficult to keep up with. It wasn't really a true upgrade to a system that worked very well and was more than fast enough to keep it challenging. It's a pretty rather extreme change, imo.
I love my ARPGs more than anything, but seeing Super Mario RPG turn into one would feel... wrong, y'know? Maybe for a hypothetical sequel to make it stand out from the other Mario RPGs a bit more (especially since Nintendo seems to be diametrically opposed to two different Mario RPG series running concurrently for some reason), but for a remake? Naw.
Keep it turn-based please and maybe add/expand to what SMRPG had.
Yes, let's make sure they don't change anything, because playing the exact same game and paying for it again is such a novelty and that will REALLY catch on with the newer generation of gamers!

Sarcasm aside, think about what I said above more seriously: why would we want the exact same game? I get us being okay with an HD remaster, but in all honesty, we shouldn't be. Just like we shouldn't be okay with just Geno's Mii Costume. As a consumer with money to spend, it's fine to ask for what you think you money is worth and to not give it if you think a product isn't worth it. Why settle for less when you can get more and offer to pay for it?

I feel like the air around here is too needy and desperate. "The character we love hasn't had an actual appearance since 2003 and no major appearance since he debut in 1996! We will take anything...ANYTHING!" I get it, I really do, but I feel like at the end of the day you all will be unsatisfied with 'just anything.' Look at the FF7 fans. At first it seemed like an HD Remaster was good enough, but then it turned out they wanted more, and it took them FOREVER to get it despite all the hubub and requests. Now look at how the game is being handled: they are making sure that it is master-crafted to the absolute highest degree possible, a degree some developers would never dream of reaching or simply don't see the point when they can do much less and still make mad money.

Now look at what else FF7 Remake is doing: they are changing up designs ever so slightly, the battle system is completely different and yet still has familiarity and it flows well and feels right, they have all-new voice actors to give the game a fresh feeling while still making sure it fits each character, minor boss fights have been elevated to ridiculous heights of badass awesomeness. They are taking some liberties for creative freedom and expression and for the sake of bringing a game released in 1997 into 2019 and beyond, but they are also towing the line set by fans to make sure that they stay true to the original as it is essentially a re-imagining. Square-Enix is on a goddamn roll right now!

This isn't even mentioning how they are remaking popular old JRPG IPs for Switch almost exclusively, making HD Remasters of games we thought we dead and gone (FF8), and releasing games that never hit the West before and look super dope ON TOP OF making brand new IPs for Switch almost exclusively. And damn, Avengers looks pretty good too! You need to let go of your desperation and nostalgia and realize what would really be awesome and the best decision for bringing SMRPG back to a 2019 audience. This is where we segway into the next part...
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For the love of any gods that may be above us, PLEASE STOP HATING ON SE! I'm close to editing the old-school Britney meme because of how ridiculous some of you are about this. For as much as some of you rag on Nintendo, SE REALLY gets the hate boner in this subthread. Have you ever stopped to think for a second that maybe, just MAYBE that Square Enix is a company that is aiming to keep itself afloat and currently is doing so after massive financial loss and restructure? Have you ever thought 'Wow, SMRPG really is an old relic and is perhaps in the back of the line for being addressed by SE' when you have multiple FF games that people love as well as DQ FINALLY getting hype in the States and other big series to focus on like KH (barf), TWEWY, Chrono Trigger, the Mana series (which they have been focusing on) and the many MANY JRPG series they have made in their lifetime as a company?

They are even working on more Western stuff like Avengers AND the are making new IPs almost exclusively for Switch, and if Octopath Traveler is anything to go by, that future looks AMAZING!

I feel like some of us here are so bloody jaded by our love for SMRPG and our desire for it and Geno and Mallow to return that we make out Squeenix to be something they aren't: some evil corporation that always does the anti-consumer thing. Well I'm sorry, but you need to pull your head out of wherever you stuck it and look at FF7R for the obvious proof that that ain't true at all. I'm sorry, but if we are honest with ourselves and we put aside our bias, there are many other titles that have a bigger presence, reach, and fanbase than us and we NEED to keep that in mind.

You know what the craziest part is? THEY COULD BE WORKING ON WHAT WE WANT RIGHT NOW! We have no idea what SE has in store past what they showed at E3 (which btw, was easily the best E3 in terms of consistent awesomeness and good reveals, as everyone else sucked at keeping up the hype and Nintendo only had three really big reveals) and they have been on a roll, so who's to say what we want isn't in the works already? We know nothing for sure, but we DO know that SE is excited to bring back old IPs to the Switch as well as new ones. We also know that lots of older JRPG titles by them have been getting HD Remakes, and we know that AlphaDream (a devteam made up of mostly ex-SMRPG peeps) is working on something big enough to hire people which would suggest it's not another port. Here all you guys are, whining and moaning about how horrible SE is and how they are the problem when, for all we know, there is a team of devs right now sweating with anxiety over how to make Geno's hair curls look amazing in a modern-day graphics engine because they KNOW we will crack down on them with the flaming fury of a bunch of angry tweets if they get so much as the shading slightly wrong.

Get over yourselves and calm down.
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And looky here, yet another new wave of ridiculous hate on something for absolutely no reason other than being consumed by our own bias and feeling extra entitled. Man, you guys are actually making me sick with all this stupid hatred that is unnecessary. I'm half-tempted to put myself in even more debt just to pick up a Switch with Smash and buy Piranha Plant, plug 100 hours into learning his potential and his match-up knowledge, and then walking up to each and every one of you with a white gloves and slapping you across the face with it so we can duel...JUST so I can wipe the floor with you with one of the goofiest and most beautiful characters we've ever been blessed with by Sakurai.

I was only semi-serious in the post above, but I'm dead serious here: you guys make me sick with the vitriol and rabid foam gushing from your mouths and dribbling down your chin like you are Ol' Yeller in the last 15 mins of the movie. It's disgusting! It doesn't matter how you try to justify it, your responses to hate Piranha Plant that much just because YOU think another character should be there is PROOF of how ridiculous the Smash community really is.

You want to know why this bothers me so much?

Because if you think Piranha Plant shouldn't be there and that [insert X character] is a better choice, than you are actively against Sakurai's creativity and sanity. You value your own desires over Sakurai trying to maintain some sort of passion and love for the series he birthed. Allow me to explain.

Sakurai has basically been threatened into working on Smash multiple times, and every time he accepts because he is likely afraid of what might happen if he doesn't, and each time he does he loses a little bit of his original design and dream of the title. In Ultimate, Sakurai pretty much just went through a list of characters WE all wanted and said "Okay, I'm only allowed to pick from this list and do a couple others that Nintendo told me to" and then his solace to have some creative spirit and passion shine through was to create Piranha Plant.

Let me try to work an analogy here, since using Sakurai's actual lore seems to put people off since 'he's rich, he should have no complaints' and 'well, he doesn't have to keep working on Smash!', let me use a beautiful duck queen we all know and love...

Let us imagine for a moment that Ovaltine Ovaltine was hired by a big art buff/company to make a beautiful collage-esq drawing of multiple themes and elements because she's ****ing badass and awesome like that and probably should have this happen soon anyway because she deserves it. She works her butt (and fingers and brain) off on it, and it's a masterpiece (because of course it would be, this is Ovaltine we are talking about here!). It gets displayed in art shows around the world and reaches critical acclaim by even the most hard-pressed of critics and Ovaltine's name is praised throughout the world. She is very impressed by both how her art turned out and all the clamor about it, but she is okay with working on a different project.

Just then, the same art buff/company busts through her door and exclaims that her art work was AMAZING, but it's been a while and now is her time to re-emerge. She needs to re-create the collage-esq artwork, but now it has to be bigger...BETTER! It needs to encompass more themes, it needs to be absolutely flawless, it needs to master ebb and flow...and she has very little time to do so! Swallowed up in the tide that is everything that her previous work was and has led to, she eagerly agrees, but notes that afterwards she plans to explore new avenues. The plan is set, and Her Majesty of Ducks pours every fiber of her being into this work. She's up for days and nights, she isn't taking care of herself properly but she doesn't care, her new masterpiece is more important than herself AND time is of the essence! She even calls in assistance from some of her colleagues, all to meet that deadline. Somehow, through all the struggle and craziness, it is achieved: a new collage piece that dwarfs the other in comparison, like comparing Earth to Jupiter! Everyone is taken aback at how glorious it is and it is praised even more than her original work could have dreamed of...but something is amiss.

Duck Queen is tired. Duck Queen is drained of creativity. Duck Queen could almost care less about the praise that is being garnered, but she does notice something: people are getting a different impression than the one she desired. Some folks find the art to be of a certain expression that she never intended it to be, nay, the antithesis of the sole purpose of her art and they are spouting it off to others as if THEY know it's true meaning and now many believe it and also share this line of thought. Tired, drained, and miffed at how the public treated this work of hers, Duck Queen parts ways with this art buff/company and pursues other avenues of art.

Years go by, Duck Queen has been enjoying her new avenues for the most part, and on a whim she decides to reserve a spot for herself at the biggest art show in the nation (arguably, the world!) for her to peruse the works of others. Perhaps for entertainment or perhaps for inspiration, either way she ends up there and is amusing herself when a couple comes up to her and shakes her and and says that they absolutely cannot wait for her next work. Duck Queen is puzzled: she hasn't made really any officially released art work in a while, mostly painting for herself and inspiring other artists and assisting friends of hers, though she did find herself inspired to return to an old classic of hers from her early days. Still though, she had nothing planned any time soon, for sure. She thought it was odd but she thanked them and moved on. Then she was approached by another couple, and then another, and then some art buffs and some more art buffs until she found herself almost surrounded and overwhelmed. They all kept saying the same thing: they couldn't wait for her next work! What was going on here? When she finally manages to ask one of them what they mean, the response is clear: "It was announced that there would be a new work of art from your amazing collage series coming out soon, and we are all excited for it! We can't wait!!"

Duck Queen is struck dumbfounded: she never planned to make an edition to the art series ever again, yet here the public was, clamoring for excitement for a new work of art in the series. She never made any claims, yet there was some sort of official announcement? Off-kilter, she returned to her hotel. Later that week, she received a phone call: the old art buff/company. They wanted to speak with her, and Duck Queen dreaded this, for she had a bad feeling about it. She met with them and sat down to speak with them, and they made it clear to her: she would either work with them to create an even greater art piece in the collage series, or they would simply re-feature her previous work in the series with some very minor touch-ups to it so it would look presentable.

Duck Queen was intimidated and in disbelief: this art buff/company she had worked with years ago and though she knew so well was THREATENING her to return and continue her work in this series. The public at large was already promised a new work, so she was screwed no matter what she did: on one wing, if she did agree, she would have to dedicate herself once again to an art style she wanted to leave behind and the hours and sleepless nights and lack of proper self-care to meet the inevitably rough deadline they would give her would tear her apart all over again; on the other wing, if she declined, they would tarnish the reputation of not only her amazing collage series that still had a place in her heart, but it would also tarnish HER reputation should she ever try to officially release any artwork in the future. And the worst of it all was that the art buff/company was so big now and had so many other talented artists behind them that they could easily recover from such a tactic while she could be ruined forever!

The choice was clear...she agreed.

But by golly SHE DIDN'T TAKE IT STANDING DOWN! Sure, she worked on the game night and day; sure, she suffered mentally and physically from the drain and strain; SURE, she did what she was asked to do, but they WOULDN'T CONTROL EVERYTHING she did!

They wanted it to be more grandiose than the last one? OH IT WOULD BE MORE GRANDIOSE! The STORY within the artwork would speak louder, MUCH louder than it ever had, so much so it could easily be a breathing, living, moving picture! IT WOULD BE CINEMA-WORTHY! More colors, more detail, more technique, MORE OF EVERYTHING! More, MORE, MORE!!! Until it felt like both her and her art would EXPLODE! And the best part was, NO ONE would mistake her expression THIS time! NO one would be able to be mislead and to think the opposite of her intentions, she would make sure of that! This was HER work of art, and she would be DAMNED if they tried to control her creative expression!

And when it was released it was a goddamn MURAL that sprawled on for what seemed like infinity and both the art buff/company and the public were taken aback by the sheer volume and magnitude of the piece. For the most part, almost no one viewed it as anything other than it was meant to be, but many who thought they had the right idea of the previous work's expression were upset. They even went on to make their own versions of her newest work because, to them, it was somehow wrong or incorrect. Duck Queen didn't care though: she had done it and made peace with both herself and her series.

Sadly, she would get roped into doing it thrice more: once for a mobile app in which she was limited in what kind of tools she could use, once for making the exact same work of art for display but with less limitations, and most recently one final time in which both her art buff/company pressure her to both make adjustments based on what they thought it needed and by what the fans of her previous works thought it needed. For both first two, she had a little bit of creative freedom, adding a little bit of zaniness and using some retro techniques, but for the last and most recent she was all but forced to cave into the demands of those around her. Each time she came back, afraid of what would happen if she didn't, and each time she had more and more creative freedom taken from her and her own art series. However, there was a small ounce of freedom she had: she was able to make a last-minute addition that didn't really fit what anyone around her had said, but it was all her and it gave her a small amount of relief and a small moment of freedom and control that she had long since lost before being told to make more alterations based on corporate and fan demand.

She would hear shortly after though that everyone dislike or even downright hated that addition to her art work. The reasoning? It wasn't what THEY thought it should be, and they would rather have it gone and replaced with what THEY think is better. Because it's no longer about the creator of their work, but about the consumer and what they want alone.

With the end of this sad tale/very long analogy, I'm going to go all in on this problem.
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I'm going to call out those who I think are making the biggest mess of all this. The mods can come after me for it if I'm doing something wrong, but I would hope they would also go after those who are being utterly ridiculous about it all as well if that ends up the case. I'm going to do my best to be polite about it, but since others are not, I apologize in advance. I am not asking anyone to leave the subthread, I'm not trying to moderate to micro moderate, and I'm not doing this to flame anyone: I see people who seem to have an issue and refuse to acknowledge it, so I'm calling it out. If it's too much, feel free to let me know and I'll cut this part out of the post.

xpnc xpnc and wynn728 wynn728 seem to be the biggest of the bunch, but if you fall under this line of logic then this applies to you as well.

Both of you remind me of my six-year-old nephew.

One of the things he is known for is trying to force his way into having something or refusing to stop doing something he shouldn't be. He will keep asking or keep pushing the limit until he gets in trouble, then he throws a fit because he feels like he should be able to do whatever he wants and by golly he is never in the wrong.

Do you see the problem here? You both are applying the logic of a child when you are clearly past the age of one. To quote one of my favorite TV Series of all time, M*A*S*H, in Season 2 Ep 1 there is a character called Hildebrand who is called upon to see if that 4077 Mobile Army Surgical Hospital is up to snuff. Before seeing them in action in the operating room, he has a comment about their shenanigans.

"Childish! Not childlike, with its connotations of innocence and joyous abandon, but childish. You delight in petty bickering, summer camp capers and, in general, behave in a manner ill-befitting officers in the United States Army and members of the medical profession."

Minus the Army and medical stuff, this fits you both really well. You are acting childish about this entire discussion. You don't like Piranha Plant? Cool. Others do, and that is were the discussion needs to end because beyond that you are imposing your irrational emotions into an argument and are refusing to back down even when you are wrong, just like a child. xpnc in particular is acting extra childish, insulting the intelligence of others and being overly sarcastic and outright refusing to read and acknowledge counterpoints out of pure emotional reactionary garbage. Everyone is so worried about people in this thread pushing away people who were never interested in supporting Geno in the first place, but it's people like you announcing you would trade in characters in the game that others love just to be so extremely selfish and get what YOU want and just screw everyone else. It's all about ME and what I want. THIS is the stuff that gives us a bad name: being know as people who find other characters worthless in the pursuit of our own favorite and throwing hissy fits when people point out how selfish we are.

Grow up. Act your age. Accept that you can be wrong and that not everyone cares about how you feel. Move on.
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For a quick TL;DR for those who can't read blocks of text:
  • Funny joke, Smash players smellzorz
  • SMRPG should either get an unrelated title with the same name or a remake that appeals to both old and new instead of just old
  • Square Enix is not the enemy, so stop acting like it
  • Piranha Plant is fine, and hating on the character or Sakurai is childish
  • Grow the **** up!
  • Geno likes to pull pranks, occasionally leaving Mallow with no pants and putting Toadstool's ??? in Mario's possession.
  • Found a streamer that is having his 5-6 yr old kid play through SMRPG. It's his favorite and he's raising her on classics. WooWOOOT!
  • More of us need to make SMRPG content. Making videos or livestreaming is pretty easy, so if you can considering it, just go do it man!
 
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ZelDan

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 19, 2011
Messages
3,303
Location
New Hampshire
You've heard of Suplex City, well let me take you down Typing For Days Lane straight to Huge *** Postropolis! :happysheep:

Lots of things to cover and more things keep popping up.


It's strategic: if they quit because they can't stand your stench, then that's a win.

If they hold on despite the stench, then they are a true competitor!

Also, didn't you know that time spent keeping up your personal hygiene is time spent NOT training? FOR SHAME!
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On a more serious note, let me address something I'm seeing that I don't agree with.





Yes, let's make sure they don't change anything, because playing the exact same game and paying for it again is such a novelty and that will REALLY catch on with the newer generation of gamers!

Sarcasm aside, think about what I said above more seriously: why would we want the exact same game? I get us being okay with an HD remaster, but in all honesty, we shouldn't be. Just like we shouldn't be okay with just Geno's Mii Costume. As a consumer with money to spend, it's fine to ask for what you think you money is worth and to not give it if you think a product isn't worth it. Why settle for less when you can get more and offer to pay for it?

I feel like the air around here is too needy and desperate. "The character we love hasn't had an actual appearance since 2003 and no major appearance since he debut in 1996! We will take anything...ANYTHING!" I get it, I really do, but I feel like at the end of the day you all will be unsatisfied with 'just anything.' Look at the FF7 fans. At first it seemed like an HD Remaster was good enough, but then it turned out they wanted more, and it took them FOREVER to get it despite all the hubub and requests. Now look at how the game is being handled: they are making sure that it is master-crafted to the absolute highest degree possible, a degree some developers would never dream of reaching or simply don't see the point when they can do much less and still make mad money.

Now look at what else FF7 Remake is doing: they are changing up designs ever so slightly, the battle system is completely different and yet still has familiarity and it flows well and feels right, they have all-new voice actors to give the game a fresh feeling while still making sure it fits each character, minor boss fights have been elevated to ridiculous heights of badass awesomeness. They are taking some liberties for creative freedom and expression and for the sake of bringing a game released in 1997 into 2019 and beyond, but they are also towing the line set by fans to make sure that they stay true to the original as it is essentially a re-imagining. Square-Enix is on a goddamn roll right now!

This isn't even mentioning how they are remaking popular old JRPG IPs for Switch almost exclusively, making HD Remasters of games we thought we dead and gone (FF8), and releasing games that never hit the West before and look super dope ON TOP OF making brand new IPs for Switch almost exclusively. And damn, Avengers looks pretty good too! You need to let go of your desperation and nostalgia and realize what would really be awesome and the best decision for bringing SMRPG back to a 2019 audience. This is where we segway into the next part...
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For the love of any gods that may be above us, PLEASE STOP HATING ON SE! I'm close to editing the old-school Britney meme because of how ridiculous some of you are about this. For as much as some of you rag on Nintendo, SE REALLY gets the hate boner in this subthread. Have you ever stopped to think for a second that maybe, just MAYBE that Square Enix is a company that is aiming to keep itself afloat and currently is doing so after massive financial loss and restructure? Have you ever thought 'Wow, SMRPG really is an old relic and is perhaps in the back of the line for being addressed by SE' when you have multiple FF games that people love as well as DQ FINALLY getting hype in the States and other big series to focus on like KH (barf), TWEWY, Chrono Trigger, the Mana series (which they have been focusing on) and the many MANY JRPG series they have made in their lifetime as a company?

They are even working on more Western stuff like Avengers AND the are making new IPs almost exclusively for Switch, and if Octopath Traveler is anything to go by, that future looks AMAZING!

I feel like some of us here are so bloody jaded by our love for SMRPG and our desire for it and Geno and Mallow to return that we make out Squeenix to be something they aren't: some evil corporation that always does the anti-consumer thing. Well I'm sorry, but you need to pull your head out of wherever you stuck it and look at FF7R for the obvious proof that that ain't true at all. I'm sorry, but if we are honest with ourselves and we put aside our bias, there are many other titles that have a bigger presence, reach, and fanbase than us and we NEED to keep that in mind.

You know what the craziest part is? THEY COULD BE WORKING ON WHAT WE WANT RIGHT NOW! We have no idea what SE has in store past what they showed at E3 (which btw, was easily the best E3 in terms of consistent awesomeness and good reveals, as everyone else sucked at keeping up the hype and Nintendo only had three really big reveals) and they have been on a roll, so who's to say what we want isn't in the works already? We know nothing for sure, but we DO know that SE is excited to bring back old IPs to the Switch as well as new ones. We also know that lots of older JRPG titles by them have been getting HD Remakes, and we know that AlphaDream (a devteam made up of mostly ex-SMRPG peeps) is working on something big enough to hire people which would suggest it's not another port. Here all you guys are, whining and moaning about how horrible SE is and how they are the problem when, for all we know, there is a team of devs right now sweating with anxiety over how to make Geno's hair curls look amazing in a modern-day graphics engine because they KNOW we will crack down on them with the flaming fury of a bunch of angry tweets if they get so much as the shading slightly wrong.

Get over yourselves and calm down.
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And looky here, yet another new wave of ridiculous hate on something for absolutely no reason other than being consumed by our own bias and feeling extra entitled. Man, you guys are actually making me sick with all this stupid hatred that is unnecessary. I'm half-tempted to put myself in even more debt just to pick up a Switch with Smash and buy Piranha Plant, plug 100 hours into learning his potential and his match-up knowledge, and then walking up to each and every one of you with a white gloves and slapping you across the face with it so we can duel...JUST so I can wipe the floor with you with one of the goofiest and most beautiful characters we've ever been blessed with by Sakurai.

I was only semi-serious in the post above, but I'm dead serious here: you guys make me sick with the vitriol and rabid foam gushing from your mouths and dribbling down your chin like you are Ol' Yeller in the last 15 mins of the movie. It's disgusting! It doesn't matter how you try to justify it, your responses to hate Piranha Plant that much just because YOU think another character should be there is PROOF of how ridiculous the Smash community really is.

You want to know why this bothers me so much?

Because if you think Piranha Plant shouldn't be there and that [insert X character] is a better choice, than you are actively against Sakurai's creativity and sanity. You value your own desires over Sakurai trying to maintain some sort of passion and love for the series he birthed. Allow me to explain.

Sakurai has basically been threatened into working on Smash multiple times, and every time he accepts because he is likely afraid of what might happen if he doesn't, and each time he does he loses a little bit of his original design and dream of the title. In Ultimate, Sakurai pretty much just went through a list of characters WE all wanted and said "Okay, I'm only allowed to pick from this list and do a couple others that Nintendo told me to" and then his solace to have some creative spirit and passion shine through was to create Piranha Plant.

Let me try to work an analogy here, since using Sakurai's actual lore seems to put people off since 'he's rich, he should have no complaints' and 'well, he doesn't have to keep working on Smash!', let me use a beautiful duck queen we all know and love...

Let us imagine for a moment that Ovaltine Ovaltine was hired by a big art buff/company to make a beautiful collage-esq drawing of multiple themes and elements because she's ****ing badass and awesome like that and probably should have this happen soon anyway because she deserves it. She works her butt (and fingers and brain) off on it, and it's a masterpiece (because of course it would be, this is Ovaltine we are talking about here!). It gets displayed in art shows around the world and reaches critical acclaim by even the most hard-pressed of critics and Ovaltine's name is praised throughout the world. She is very impressed by both how her art turned out and all the clamor about it, but she is okay with working on a different project.

Just then, the same art buff/company busts through her door and exclaims that her art work was AMAZING, but it's been a while and now is her time to re-emerge. She needs to re-create the collage-esq artwork, but now it has to be bigger...BETTER! It needs to encompass more themes, it needs to be absolutely flawless, it needs to master ebb and flow...and she has very little time to do so! Swallowed up in the tide that is everything that her previous work was and has led to, she eagerly agrees, but notes that afterwards she plans to explore new avenues. The plan is set, and Her Majesty of Ducks pours every fiber of her being into this work. She's up for days and nights, she isn't taking care of herself properly but she doesn't care, her new masterpiece is more important than herself AND time is of the essence! She even calls in assistance from some of her colleagues, all to meet that deadline. Somehow, through all the struggle and craziness, it is achieved: a new collage piece that dwarfs the other in comparison, like comparing Earth to Jupiter! Everyone is taken aback at how glorious it is and it is praised even more than her original work could have dreamed of...but something is amiss.

Duck Queen is tired. Duck Queen is drained of creativity. Duck Queen could almost care less about the praise that is being garnered, but she does notice something: people are getting a different impression than the one she desired. Some folks find the art to be of a certain expression that she never intended it to be, nay, the antithesis of the sole purpose of her art and they are spouting it off to others as if THEY know it's true meaning and now many believe it and also share this line of thought. Tired, drained, and miffed at how the public treated this work of hers, Duck Queen parts ways with this art buff/company and pursues other avenues of art.

Years go by, Duck Queen has been enjoying her new avenues for the most part, and on a whim she decides to reserve a spot for herself at the biggest art show in the nation (arguably, the world!) for her to peruse the works of others. Perhaps for entertainment or perhaps for inspiration, either way she ends up there and is amusing herself when a couple comes up to her and shakes her and and says that they absolutely cannot wait for her next work. Duck Queen is puzzled: she hasn't made really any officially released art work in a while, mostly painting for herself and inspiring other artists and assisting friends of hers, though she did find herself inspired to return to an old classic of hers from her early days. Still though, she had nothing planned any time soon, for sure. She thought it was odd but she thanked them and moved on. Then she was approached by another couple, and then another, and then some art buffs and some more art buffs until she found herself almost surrounded and overwhelmed. They all kept saying the same thing: they couldn't wait for her next work! What was going on here? When she finally manages to ask one of them what they mean, the response is clear: "It was announced that there would be a new work of art from your amazing collage series coming out soon, and we are all excited for it! We can't wait!!"

Duck Queen is struck dumbfounded: she never planned to make an edition to the art series ever again, yet here the public was, clamoring for excitement for a new work of art in the series. She never made any claims, yet there was some sort of official announcement? Off-kilter, she returned to her hotel. Later that week, she received a phone call: the old art buff/company. They wanted to speak with her, and Duck Queen dreaded this, for she had a bad feeling about it. She met with them and sat down to speak with them, and they made it clear to her: she would either work with them to create an even greater art piece in the collage series, or they would simply re-feature her previous work in the series with some very minor touch-ups to it so it would look presentable.

Duck Queen was intimidated and in disbelief: this art buff/company she had worked with years ago and though she knew so well was THREATENING her to return and continue her work in this series. The public at large was already promised a new work, so she was screwed no matter what she did: on one wing, if she did agree, she would have to dedicate herself once again to an art style she wanted to leave behind and the hours and sleepless nights and lack of proper self-care to meet the inevitably rough deadline they would give her would tear her apart all over again; on the other wing, if she declined, they would tarnish the reputation of not only her amazing collage series that still had a place in her heart, but it would also tarnish HER reputation should she ever try to officially release any artwork in the future. And the worst of it all was that the art buff/company was so big now and had so many other talented artists behind them that they could easily recover from such a tactic while she could be ruined forever!

The choice was clear...she agreed.

But by golly SHE DIDN'T TAKE IT STANDING DOWN! Sure, she worked on the game night and day; sure, she suffered mentally and physically from the drain and strain; SURE, she did what she was asked to do, but they WOULDN'T CONTROL EVERYTHING she did!

They wanted it to be more grandiose than the last one? OH IT WOULD BE MORE GRANDIOSE! The STORY within the artwork would speak louder, MUCH louder than it ever had, so much so it could easily be a breathing, living, moving picture! IT WOULD BE CINEMA-WORTHY! More colors, more detail, more technique, MORE OF EVERYTHING! More, MORE, MORE!!! Until it felt like both her and her art would EXPLODE! And the best part was, NO ONE would mistake her expression THIS time! NO one would be able to be mislead and to think the opposite of her intentions, she would make sure of that! This was HER work of art, and she would be DAMNED if they tried to control her creative expression!

And when it was released it was a goddamn MURAL that sprawled on for what seemed like infinity and both the art buff/company and the public were taken aback by the sheer volume and magnitude of the piece. For the most part, almost no one viewed it as anything other than it was meant to be, but many who thought they had the right idea of the previous work's expression were upset. They even went on to make their own versions of her newest work because, to them, it was somehow wrong or incorrect. Duck Queen didn't care though: she had done it and made peace with both herself and her series.

Sadly, she would get roped into doing it thrice more: once for a mobile app in which she was limited in what kind of tools she could use, once for making the exact same work of art for display but with less limitations, and most recently one final time in which both her art buff/company pressure her to both make adjustments based on what they thought it needed and by what the fans of her previous works thought it needed. For both first two, she had a little bit of creative freedom, adding a little bit of zaniness and using some retro techniques, but for the last and most recent she was all but forced to cave into the demands of those around her. Each time she came back, afraid of what would happen if she didn't, and each time she had more and more creative freedom taken from her and her own art series. However, there was a small ounce of freedom she had: she was able to make a last-minute addition that didn't really fit what anyone around her had said, but it was all her and it gave her a small amount of relief and a small moment of freedom and control that she had long since lost before being told to make more alterations based on corporate and fan demand.

She would hear shortly after though that everyone dislike or even downright hated that addition to her art work. The reasoning? It wasn't what THEY thought it should be, and they would rather have it gone and replaced with what THEY think is better. Because it's no longer about the creator of their work, but about the consumer and what they want alone.

With the end of this sad tale/very long analogy, I'm going to go all in on this problem.
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I'm going to call out those who I think are making the biggest mess of all this. The mods can come after me for it if I'm doing something wrong, but I would hope they would also go after those who are being utterly ridiculous about it all as well if that ends up the case. I'm going to do my best to be polite about it, but since others are not, I apologize in advance. I am not asking anyone to leave the subthread, I'm not trying to moderate to micro moderate, and I'm not doing this to flame anyone: I see people who seem to have an issue and refuse to acknowledge it, so I'm calling it out. If it's too much, feel free to let me know and I'll cut this part out of the post.

xpnc xpnc and wynn728 wynn728 seem to be the biggest of the bunch, but if you fall under this line of logic then this applies to you as well.

Both of you remind me of my six-year-old nephew.

One of the things he is known for is trying to force his way into having something or refusing to stop doing something he shouldn't be. He will keep asking or keep pushing the limit until he gets in trouble, then he throws a fit because he feels like he should be able to do whatever he wants and by golly he is never in the wrong.

Do you see the problem here? You both are applying the logic of a child when you are clearly past the age of one. To quote one of my favorite TV Series of all time, M*A*S*H, in Season 2 Ep 1 there is a character called Hildebrand who is called upon to see if that 4077 Mobile Army Surgical Hospital is up to snuff. Before seeing them in action in the operating room, he has a comment about their shenanigans.

"Childish! Not childlike, with its connotations of innocence and joyous abandon, but childish. You delight in petty bickering, summer camp capers and, in general, behave in a manner ill-befitting officers in the United States Army and members of the medical profession."

Minus the Army and medical stuff, this fits you both really well. You are acting childish about this entire discussion. You don't like Piranha Plant? Cool. Others do, and that is were the discussion needs to end because beyond that you are imposing your irrational emotions into an argument and are refusing to back down even when you are wrong, just like a child. xpnc in particular is acting extra childish, insulting the intelligence of others and being overly sarcastic and outright refusing to read and acknowledge counterpoints out of pure emotional reactionary garbage. Everyone is so worried about people in this thread pushing away people who were never interested in supporting Geno in the first place, but it's people like you announcing you would trade in characters in the game that others love just to be so extremely selfish and get what YOU want and just screw everyone else. It's all about ME and what I want. THIS is the stuff that gives us a bad name: being know as people who find other characters worthless in the pursuit of our own favorite and throwing hissy fits when people point out how selfish we are.

Grow up. Act your age. Accept that you can be wrong and that not everyone cares about how you feel. Move on.
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For a quick TL;DR for those who can't read blocks of text:
  • Funny joke, Smash players smellzorz
  • SMRPG should either get an unrelated title with the same name or a remake that appeals to both old and new instead of just old
  • Square Enix is not the enemy, so stop acting like it
  • Piranha Plant is fine, and hating on the character or Sakurai is childish
  • Grow the **** up!
  • Geno likes to pull pranks, occasionally leaving Mallow with no pants and putting Toadstool's ??? in Mario's possession.
  • Found a streamer that is having his 5-6 yr old kid play through SMRPG. It's his favorite and he's raising her on classics. WooWOOOT!
  • More of us need to make SMRPG content. Making videos or livestreaming is pretty easy, so if you can considering it, just go do it man!
when it comes to the SMRPG stuffyou quoted me on, it is possible to keep the turn based combat and change that so it's different, or make the game different in some ways outside the battles. Ideally a SMRPG remake would change things up or add new content to give something appealing to those who've already played the game dozens of times.
 

ForsakenM

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
1,984
when it comes to the SMRPG stuffyou quoted me on, it is possible to keep the turn based combat and change that so it's different, or make the game different in some ways outside the battles. Ideally a SMRPG remake would change things up or add new content to give something appealing to those who've already played the game dozens of times.
Fun fact, my friend brought up the idea of just MAKING a 'SMRPG' that has no ties to LotSS.

He was like 'Dude, if they just made a Mario RPG for the Switch, it would sell TONS of money. It's not something they've done on the Switch yet,'

Now to be fair, he's not as deep into Nintendo as some others, so he wasn't super aware of Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi, but even so I did some research and it's been a long time since a GOOD Mario RPG was released. It blew my mind: I never thought of just making a new Mario RPG that wasn't tied to any of the previous ones in the Mario franchise.

Mario + Rabbids was a HUGE success, so I agree that a Mario RPG on Switch could blow the doors right of of Nintendo HQ.
 

EarlTamm

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
7,331
Fun fact, my friend brought up the idea of just MAKING a 'SMRPG' that has no ties to LotSS.

He was like 'Dude, if they just made a Mario RPG for the Switch, it would sell TONS of money. It's not something they've done on the Switch yet,'

Now to be fair, he's not as deep into Nintendo as some others, so he wasn't super aware of Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi, but even so I did some research and it's been a long time since a GOOD Mario RPG was released. It blew my mind: I never thought of just making a new Mario RPG that wasn't tied to any of the previous ones in the Mario franchise.

Mario + Rabbids was a HUGE success, so I agree that a Mario RPG on Switch could blow the doors right of of Nintendo HQ.
A new RPG with no ties to anything would be interesting. I imagine the only way that would be made is if it tried a completely new style of RPG. Otherwise it would just be decided to lump it up with the other similar RPG.
 

ShotoStar 2

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
235
Okay, Can we please stop with the toxicity in here? These arguments are getting way out of hand! Someone asks if they would cut a character to add another character just to wonder about it fine, That's perfectly fine but later it devolved into a screaming pile of a mess. Please everyone take a chill pill Dr. Mario is right over there if you want any.
Objectively false


Sick mic drop maybe someone will put it in their sig


Didn't read
Please don't do this? Please? It's very disrespectful to simply respond to people who don't want to cut a character for another and call them less of a fan. There is no such thing as a lesser fan you're either one or you aren't we shouldn't alienate our own support group into hierarchies. It's really rude and disrespectful. I don't mean any hate against you specifically Xpnc I'm sure you aren't trying to be super hateful but at the very least that's what it comes off as. It's really rude to call someone less of a fan. There's no such thing. You're doing the exact same thing StormC was talking about.

Speaking of that, You brush them off due to them not seeing your point or seeing eye-to-eye with you. We don't have to sing kumbaya and all support each other if you don't want to but all any of us are asking is to be disappointed or upset in a respectful manner don't go flaming people or people in the same support group just cause they got their character or because they don't see eye-to-eye with you.

It's fine to be disappointed, I was super disappointed with Hero but at least I didn't go over to the Hero social and be a douche the only reaction you're going to get from them and people in general is negative which is the opposite of what anyone or anything needs. If you do that for example, You're going to look bad for our group and you're just going to be disliked which will inevitably be pushed onto the entirety of the character like what happened with Waluigi/Ashley/Sora.

Don't be a douche is all anyone is asking. Remember that there is a human being under that profile picture and you should treat them how you would want to be treated. It's not good to do any of this to other people or even your own group.

We just need to be civilized that's all we're asking.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The mods get on us all the time for going into these sorts of arguments and yet we never listen. We need to and they're there for a reason. If they weren't there people would all look or say some terrible stuff and we'd all look bad but that's not the only thing you have to remember that there are people behind those screens that you may insult or make feel bad just because they don't agree with you or vice-versa.

People may already get flack for doing a multitude of things outside of this place so if they found this place and wanted to use this place as an escape from their problems or just as a place to relax and they see all of this they'd probably be disappointed, Feel terrible and have their day ruined just cause you couldn't be civil. Of course that may or may not be an exaggeration but you get my point they'd feel bad about whatever situation they're in and it would not only make them feel bad but it would also reflect back onto you and how bad you may look which in turn affects how people perceive the character the person may support.

It's just not a good thing to do overall. We need to have human decency around here if we want to get people on our side and not make people dislike us just cause people tend to forget Human Decency which should be a requirement for online media anyways. We'd end up looking like 4chan otherwise and look at how bad they're perceived as.

Just have human decency please. Be like Geno and be a humble, Caring, Kind and nice person. Make Geno proud and make everyone in turn proud. We can do that much.
 
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GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
Technically speaking, wouldn't Nintendo be able to make a Mario RPG and call it Super Mario RPG: Whatever Subtitle? They have a defense against any potential lawsuits, as technically Super Mario RPG is the series name and the genre so it's generic.

Then again they might not want to do that as it might alienate SE and they're friends now.

Also, I would let Geno not make it in if it meant Piranha Plant got cut. Does that make me a real fan or a fake one?
 
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EarlTamm

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
7,331
Technically speaking, wouldn't Nintendo be able to make a Mario RPG and call it Super Mario RPG: Whatever Subtitle? They have a defense against any potential lawsuits, as technically Super Mario RPG is the series name and the genre so it's generic.

Then again they might not want to do that as it might alienate SE and they're friends now.

Also, I would let Geno not make it in if it meant Piranha Plant got cut. Does that make me a real fan or a fake one?
I think it's an association thing. Nintendo is completely allowed to call an something Super Mario RPG, but people will be looking back at the previous one and judge it accordingly, as will Square.

And no, that does not make you any more or less a Geno fan. It's an opinion that has no regard on how much of a fan you are and never should be. If you want Geno, then you are a fan. 'Tis as simple as that.
 
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Ze Diglett

Smash Champion
Writing Team
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Dec 7, 2014
Messages
2,818
Location
Rivals 2
NNID
ZeDiglett
On a more serious note, let me address something I'm seeing that I don't agree with.





Yes, let's make sure they don't change anything, because playing the exact same game and paying for it again is such a novelty and that will REALLY catch on with the newer generation of gamers!

Sarcasm aside, think about what I said above more seriously: why would we want the exact same game? I get us being okay with an HD remaster, but in all honesty, we shouldn't be. Just like we shouldn't be okay with just Geno's Mii Costume. As a consumer with money to spend, it's fine to ask for what you think you money is worth and to not give it if you think a product isn't worth it. Why settle for less when you can get more and offer to pay for it?

I feel like the air around here is too needy and desperate. "The character we love hasn't had an actual appearance since 2003 and no major appearance since he debut in 1996! We will take anything...ANYTHING!" I get it, I really do, but I feel like at the end of the day you all will be unsatisfied with 'just anything.' Look at the FF7 fans. At first it seemed like an HD Remaster was good enough, but then it turned out they wanted more, and it took them FOREVER to get it despite all the hubub and requests. Now look at how the game is being handled: they are making sure that it is master-crafted to the absolute highest degree possible, a degree some developers would never dream of reaching or simply don't see the point when they can do much less and still make mad money.

Now look at what else FF7 Remake is doing: they are changing up designs ever so slightly, the battle system is completely different and yet still has familiarity and it flows well and feels right, they have all-new voice actors to give the game a fresh feeling while still making sure it fits each character, minor boss fights have been elevated to ridiculous heights of badass awesomeness. They are taking some liberties for creative freedom and expression and for the sake of bringing a game released in 1997 into 2019 and beyond, but they are also towing the line set by fans to make sure that they stay true to the original as it is essentially a re-imagining. Square-Enix is on a goddamn roll right now!

This isn't even mentioning how they are remaking popular old JRPG IPs for Switch almost exclusively, making HD Remasters of games we thought we dead and gone (FF8), and releasing games that never hit the West before and look super dope ON TOP OF making brand new IPs for Switch almost exclusively. And damn, Avengers looks pretty good too! You need to let go of your desperation and nostalgia and realize what would really be awesome and the best decision for bringing SMRPG back to a 2019 audience. This is where we segway into the next part...
Note to self: If you don't want a remake of one of your favorite games to literally jump genres, you're afraid of change and need to quit being so nostalgic.

Please don't act like I, or anyone else in this thread, want what you're describing here. I'd love an SMRPG remake that irons out the difficulty curve (or at least adds a challenge mode for veterans of the game) and adds additional side content, and even if they did for whatever reason feel the need to make it a completely different kind of RPG, I'd probably go along with it. Does that mean I want to them to not change anything and just release the exact same game with a fresh coat of paint? Clearly not (though I certainly wouldn't complain in that case, official recognition of SMRPG is so damn scarce these days that yeah, I would take just about anything at this point), and I'm no clairvoyant, but I don't think that's what either of the other people you quoted here want either.
 
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ForsakenM

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
1,984
Note to self: If you don't want a remake of one of your favorite games to literally jump genres, you're afraid of change and need to quit being so nostalgic.

Please don't act like I, or anyone else in this thread, want what you're describing here. I'd love an SMRPG remake that irons out the difficulty curve (or at least adds a challenge mode for veterans of the game) and adds additional side content, and even if they did for whatever reason feel the need to make it a completely different kind of RPG, I'd probably go along with it. Does that mean I want to them to not change anything and just release the exact same game with a fresh coat of paint? Clearly not (though I certainly wouldn't complain in that case, official recognition of SMRPG is so damn scarce these days that yeah, I would take just about anything at this point), and I'm no clairvoyant, but I don't think that's what either of the other people you quoted here want either.
I mean, I literally quoted a couple quotes of the many saying that they don't want any major changes.

I'm sorry, what else would you call that?

Frankly, the reason FF7 will be successful is that it maintains the balance between new era appeal and rosy-tint. Just having the same SMRPG game with updated graphics would appeal to mainly us, and by us I mean those who want no changes and not me because I've already played that game.

I say this even though Omega Ruby/Alpha Sapphire got me to by both the game AND the console it was on, but it was specifically for this reason: the gameplay I saw from a livestream showed both the old and the new and I was swooned. They new would have to be REALLY big for SMRPG, because let's be honest here, it's a really basic game in terms of actual gameplay. There isn't nearly that much going on, and frankly I think that's a problem. There needs to be more battle options.
 

kiteinthesky

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
902
I don't have a stake in the Pirahna Plant debacle, but statements like this:

Because if you think Piranha Plant shouldn't be there and that [insert X character] is a better choice, than you are actively against Sakurai's creativity and sanity.
Are loaded, manipulative, and cruel, and I won't put up with it. No one is doing anything of the sort by holding and defending an opinion, and claiming they are is a hurtful act that does not belong here.

You all doing that know who you are, and you will stop or I will go to the moderators. I don't care what side of the debate you're on.
 
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Nicnac

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 27, 2018
Messages
670
Location
Glasgow, Scotland
Didn't realise this was the PP debate thread. It's getting kinda heated here, can we all chill?

I was recently on GameFAQS to look at some chat about Geno instead of PP, and I was surprised by the relatively (it is still GameFAQS) high amount of support for Geno. It seems that the arrival of Banjo may have turned people there around, which is interesting. As someone pointed out, now that Banjo is in the game, Geno may start dominating polls more. Gives me a bit of hope, honestly.
 
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KCCHIEFS27

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
1,291
I don't have a stake in the Pirahna Plant debacle, but statements like this:



Are loaded, manipulative, and cruel, and I won't put up with it. No one is doing anything of the sort by holding and defending an opinion, and claiming they are is a hurtful act that does not belong here.

You all doing that know who you are, and you will stop or I will go to the moderators. I don't care what side of the debate you're on.
Yeah this is my entire problem. We are all well aware that Sakurai is the director of this game and can do whatever the hell he wants.

But he is selling a product and I am a consumer of said product therefore I have every right to criticize things I don’t personally like. I am in NO way obligated to praise every character addition and no one in here has any right to tell me that my opinion is incorrect.

I am aware that PP being in the game has no effect whatsoever on Geno. There is no such thing as one character “taking the slot” of another, I know this. I still hate the decision to add him anyways.
 
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AugustusB

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
2,527
Location
Texas
Didn't realise this was the PP debate thread. It's getting kinda heated here, can we all chill?

I was recently on GameFAQS to look at some chat about Geno instead of PP, and I was surprised by the relatively (it is still GameFAQS) high amount of support for Geno. It seems that the arrival of Banjo may have turned people there around, which is interesting. As someone pointed out, now that Banjo is in the game, Geno may start dominating polls more. Gives me a bit of hope, honestly.
Yeah, the talk has been going on waaaay to long. Maybe soon it will end?

That is inspiring actually! It is nice to see other forums showing support for our Star Boy. Also, Banjo absolutely turned the game around lol.
 

Ovaltine

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 7, 2018
Messages
3,905
Didn't realise this was the PP debate thread. It's getting kinda heated here, can we all chill?

I was recently on GameFAQS to look at some chat about Geno instead of PP, and I was surprised by the relatively (it is still GameFAQS) high amount of support for Geno. It seems that the arrival of Banjo may have turned people there around, which is interesting. As someone pointed out, now that Banjo is in the game, Geno may start dominating polls more. Gives me a bit of hope, honestly.
People... are being nice and supportive about Geno? On GameFAQs?

Am I alive? Is this real life? This isn't real. Pinch me. It's not real.
 

AugustusB

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
2,527
Location
Texas
People... are being nice and supportive about Geno? On GameFAQs?

Am I alive? Is this real life? This isn't real. Pinch me. It's not real.
*Pinch*

It's happening gang. Hope is starting to surge not just here, but other places!

....maybe not 4chan, but you know...cesspool of humanity lies there...
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
Didn't realise this was the PP debate thread. It's getting kinda heated here, can we all chill?

I was recently on GameFAQS to look at some chat about Geno instead of PP, and I was surprised by the relatively (it is still GameFAQS) high amount of support for Geno. It seems that the arrival of Banjo may have turned people there around, which is interesting. As someone pointed out, now that Banjo is in the game, Geno may start dominating polls more. Gives me a bit of hope, honestly.
GameFAQs liking something? Aw man it's Opposite Day isn't it?

Alright then, I'll play your game: I don't support Geno. ;D
 

wynn728

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And looky here, yet another new wave of ridiculous hate on something for absolutely no reason other than being consumed by our own bias and feeling extra entitled. Man, you guys are actually making me sick with all this stupid hatred that is unnecessary. I'm half-tempted to put myself in even more debt just to pick up a Switch with Smash and buy Piranha Plant, plug 100 hours into learning his potential and his match-up knowledge, and then walking up to each and every one of you with a white gloves and slapping you across the face with it so we can duel...JUST so I can wipe the floor with you with one of the goofiest and most beautiful characters we've ever been blessed with by Sakurai.

I was only semi-serious in the post above, but I'm dead serious here: you guys make me sick with the vitriol and rabid foam gushing from your mouths and dribbling down your chin like you are Ol' Yeller in the last 15 mins of the movie. It's disgusting! It doesn't matter how you try to justify it, your responses to hate Piranha Plant that much just because YOU think another character should be there is PROOF of how ridiculous the Smash community really is.

You want to know why this bothers me so much?

Because if you think Piranha Plant shouldn't be there and that [insert X character] is a better choice, than you are actively against Sakurai's creativity and sanity. You value your own desires over Sakurai trying to maintain some sort of passion and love for the series he birthed. Allow me to explain.

Sakurai has basically been threatened into working on Smash multiple times, and every time he accepts because he is likely afraid of what might happen if he doesn't, and each time he does he loses a little bit of his original design and dream of the title. In Ultimate, Sakurai pretty much just went through a list of characters WE all wanted and said "Okay, I'm only allowed to pick from this list and do a couple others that Nintendo told me to" and then his solace to have some creative spirit and passion shine through was to create Piranha Plant.

Let me try to work an analogy here, since using Sakurai's actual lore seems to put people off since 'he's rich, he should have no complaints' and 'well, he doesn't have to keep working on Smash!', let me use a beautiful duck queen we all know and love...

Let us imagine for a moment that Ovaltine Ovaltine was hired by a big art buff/company to make a beautiful collage-esq drawing of multiple themes and elements because she's ****ing badass and awesome like that and probably should have this happen soon anyway because she deserves it. She works her butt (and fingers and brain) off on it, and it's a masterpiece (because of course it would be, this is Ovaltine we are talking about here!). It gets displayed in art shows around the world and reaches critical acclaim by even the most hard-pressed of critics and Ovaltine's name is praised throughout the world. She is very impressed by both how her art turned out and all the clamor about it, but she is okay with working on a different project.

Just then, the same art buff/company busts through her door and exclaims that her art work was AMAZING, but it's been a while and now is her time to re-emerge. She needs to re-create the collage-esq artwork, but now it has to be bigger...BETTER! It needs to encompass more themes, it needs to be absolutely flawless, it needs to master ebb and flow...and she has very little time to do so! Swallowed up in the tide that is everything that her previous work was and has led to, she eagerly agrees, but notes that afterwards she plans to explore new avenues. The plan is set, and Her Majesty of Ducks pours every fiber of her being into this work. She's up for days and nights, she isn't taking care of herself properly but she doesn't care, her new masterpiece is more important than herself AND time is of the essence! She even calls in assistance from some of her colleagues, all to meet that deadline. Somehow, through all the struggle and craziness, it is achieved: a new collage piece that dwarfs the other in comparison, like comparing Earth to Jupiter! Everyone is taken aback at how glorious it is and it is praised even more than her original work could have dreamed of...but something is amiss.

Duck Queen is tired. Duck Queen is drained of creativity. Duck Queen could almost care less about the praise that is being garnered, but she does notice something: people are getting a different impression than the one she desired. Some folks find the art to be of a certain expression that she never intended it to be, nay, the antithesis of the sole purpose of her art and they are spouting it off to others as if THEY know it's true meaning and now many believe it and also share this line of thought. Tired, drained, and miffed at how the public treated this work of hers, Duck Queen parts ways with this art buff/company and pursues other avenues of art.

Years go by, Duck Queen has been enjoying her new avenues for the most part, and on a whim she decides to reserve a spot for herself at the biggest art show in the nation (arguably, the world!) for her to peruse the works of others. Perhaps for entertainment or perhaps for inspiration, either way she ends up there and is amusing herself when a couple comes up to her and shakes her and and says that they absolutely cannot wait for her next work. Duck Queen is puzzled: she hasn't made really any officially released art work in a while, mostly painting for herself and inspiring other artists and assisting friends of hers, though she did find herself inspired to return to an old classic of hers from her early days. Still though, she had nothing planned any time soon, for sure. She thought it was odd but she thanked them and moved on. Then she was approached by another couple, and then another, and then some art buffs and some more art buffs until she found herself almost surrounded and overwhelmed. They all kept saying the same thing: they couldn't wait for her next work! What was going on here? When she finally manages to ask one of them what they mean, the response is clear: "It was announced that there would be a new work of art from your amazing collage series coming out soon, and we are all excited for it! We can't wait!!"

Duck Queen is struck dumbfounded: she never planned to make an edition to the art series ever again, yet here the public was, clamoring for excitement for a new work of art in the series. She never made any claims, yet there was some sort of official announcement? Off-kilter, she returned to her hotel. Later that week, she received a phone call: the old art buff/company. They wanted to speak with her, and Duck Queen dreaded this, for she had a bad feeling about it. She met with them and sat down to speak with them, and they made it clear to her: she would either work with them to create an even greater art piece in the collage series, or they would simply re-feature her previous work in the series with some very minor touch-ups to it so it would look presentable.

Duck Queen was intimidated and in disbelief: this art buff/company she had worked with years ago and though she knew so well was THREATENING her to return and continue her work in this series. The public at large was already promised a new work, so she was screwed no matter what she did: on one wing, if she did agree, she would have to dedicate herself once again to an art style she wanted to leave behind and the hours and sleepless nights and lack of proper self-care to meet the inevitably rough deadline they would give her would tear her apart all over again; on the other wing, if she declined, they would tarnish the reputation of not only her amazing collage series that still had a place in her heart, but it would also tarnish HER reputation should she ever try to officially release any artwork in the future. And the worst of it all was that the art buff/company was so big now and had so many other talented artists behind them that they could easily recover from such a tactic while she could be ruined forever!

The choice was clear...she agreed.

But by golly SHE DIDN'T TAKE IT STANDING DOWN! Sure, she worked on the game night and day; sure, she suffered mentally and physically from the drain and strain; SURE, she did what she was asked to do, but they WOULDN'T CONTROL EVERYTHING she did!

They wanted it to be more grandiose than the last one? OH IT WOULD BE MORE GRANDIOSE! The STORY within the artwork would speak louder, MUCH louder than it ever had, so much so it could easily be a breathing, living, moving picture! IT WOULD BE CINEMA-WORTHY! More colors, more detail, more technique, MORE OF EVERYTHING! More, MORE, MORE!!! Until it felt like both her and her art would EXPLODE! And the best part was, NO ONE would mistake her expression THIS time! NO one would be able to be mislead and to think the opposite of her intentions, she would make sure of that! This was HER work of art, and she would be DAMNED if they tried to control her creative expression!

And when it was released it was a goddamn MURAL that sprawled on for what seemed like infinity and both the art buff/company and the public were taken aback by the sheer volume and magnitude of the piece. For the most part, almost no one viewed it as anything other than it was meant to be, but many who thought they had the right idea of the previous work's expression were upset. They even went on to make their own versions of her newest work because, to them, it was somehow wrong or incorrect. Duck Queen didn't care though: she had done it and made peace with both herself and her series.

Sadly, she would get roped into doing it thrice more: once for a mobile app in which she was limited in what kind of tools she could use, once for making the exact same work of art for display but with less limitations, and most recently one final time in which both her art buff/company pressure her to both make adjustments based on what they thought it needed and by what the fans of her previous works thought it needed. For both first two, she had a little bit of creative freedom, adding a little bit of zaniness and using some retro techniques, but for the last and most recent she was all but forced to cave into the demands of those around her. Each time she came back, afraid of what would happen if she didn't, and each time she had more and more creative freedom taken from her and her own art series. However, there was a small ounce of freedom she had: she was able to make a last-minute addition that didn't really fit what anyone around her had said, but it was all her and it gave her a small amount of relief and a small moment of freedom and control that she had long since lost before being told to make more alterations based on corporate and fan demand.

She would hear shortly after though that everyone dislike or even downright hated that addition to her art work. The reasoning? It wasn't what THEY thought it should be, and they would rather have it gone and replaced with what THEY think is better. Because it's no longer about the creator of their work, but about the consumer and what they want alone.

With the end of this sad tale/very long analogy, I'm going to go all in on this problem.
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Omg, wow... just WOW. That's a super bad take. Like what? You're basically saying we can't hate Piranha Plant or saying anything else because Sakurai made it? Do I even need to explain why that is one of the worst take? Look, an artist and creator can make whatever they want, but that doesn't mean it's good or that no one is allowed to not criticize it. With every piece of media people are allowed to say "It's bad because of X" or "If they did X then it would've been better." People are allowed to hate the decisions that creators make and denying that doesn't lead to better art, it most likely lead to a worst product because now you're not allowing criticism to exist because that attacks the artist creativity & sanity. If we weren't allowed to say anything, no negative comments allowed, we would still having tripping in Ultimate, no Battlefield variation of each stages, no option to turn off stage gimmicks, the same terrible version of Stage Builder from Smash Bros Wii U, the same classic mode from Smash 4, and no saved rule-sets.

You can't disallow criticism or negativity just because he's Sakurai, because if you do that then you bring into question on why he's not allowed to receive criticism while every other artist and creator receives them. What's the special case? No one should be like "Well George R.R. Martin gave the guidelines on how Game of Thrones ended, so I guess we're not allowed to hate that final season or point out it's flaws. All we're allowed to do it love it because it came from his mind." NO that's bloody wrong on so many level. You loving everything the artist creates no matter what doesn't make you a better fan, it makes you a blind one. You're allowed to like Piranha Plant, but you're also allowed to hate it. You're allowed to like many of the choices Sakurai makes, but you're allowed to put into question on many his of decisions.

Some times an artist should have all the creative freedom they can get, but other times it's best that there are restraint to make sure a better product is made. Those restraint could be an editor telling you where you should focus (just like how George Lucus & Shyamalan are better directors when they have someone to tell them "no don't do that, focus on this) or public feedback that points out what people don't like about it. When you put a product out you are exposing it for all the world to see and you can't shield it from any negativity anymore. If you don't want the public to give their takes, their critique, their negativity then you keep it to yourself so your creativity will never be under attack, but doing so also denying the product the love, passion and positivity that comes from the public. You got to take the bad with the good. If nobody is allowed to hate it then nobody is allowed to love it.

Also the best example on how public critique and listen to the negativity leads to a better product all you have to do is look at Mighty No. 9 and Bloodstained. MN9 listen to nobody and allowed Inafune to run free with all of his decision and it turn out to be a bad game. Bloodstained and Iga listen to the negative feedback and now it's an amazing game (except for the Switch version, but give it some time and let the developers patch some fixes and that version will be better).
 

Datboigeno

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Didn't realise this was the PP debate thread. It's getting kinda heated here, can we all chill?

I was recently on GameFAQS to look at some chat about Geno instead of PP, and I was surprised by the relatively (it is still GameFAQS) high amount of support for Geno. It seems that the arrival of Banjo may have turned people there around, which is interesting. As someone pointed out, now that Banjo is in the game, Geno may start dominating polls more. Gives me a bit of hope, honestly.
I'm honestly very interested to see what the next really big poll results are for SSBU newcomers. Because with Banjo now in the game I would suspect Steve would drop majorly and so it'd be a toss-up between Geno and Sora likely. And who knows if Banjo getting in may be enough to boost Geno over Sora in a really definitive way. Really, Geno's status as a never-ever may actually work in his favor if people who backed Banjo are now inclined to support another never-ever pick.
 
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Some people also say that Sora is mostly owned by Disney, which could make him hard to include.

So I could see Sakurai picking Geno over him in the scenario proposed by Datboigeno Datboigeno . Both due to the fact Geno is easier to negotiate and also the claims Sakurai made about loving the character of Geno (which isn’t necessarily a point in favour of Geno, but could be worth to mention on this case).
 

wynn728

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So right now there is a theory going on that saying The Hero might drop today on July the 4th. I don't particularly believe any rumors anymore, but if that somehow the case then that's an extremely weird decision to release the character that's only big in Japan on the day America got it's independence. We might know the fate of Geno soon if it were to be believed please no Mii Costume
 

Nicnac

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GameFAQs liking something? Aw man it's Opposite Day isn't it?

Alright then, I'll play your game: I don't support Geno. ;D
There's still a metric ton of toxicity towards pretty much everything there (including Geno) but I've seen more people defend him and be positive. Gave me a good vibe, but I'm not expecting this to stick- it is GameFAQS after all!
 

Ovaltine

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There's still a metric ton of toxicity towards pretty much everything there (including Geno) but I've seen more people defend him and be positive. Gave me a good vibe, but I'm not expecting this to stick- it is GameFAQS after all!
I'm honestly surprised anyone even takes GameFAQs seriously anymore. I know that when I saw it brought up multiple times during Smash speculation, I was floored. I thought the site was entirely ignored by the vast majority because of how much of a cesspool it was. Nearly everyone I've ever seen doesn't take that place with any bit of seriousness.

I guess I was wrong. That threw me for one heck of a loop.
 

Nicnac

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I'm honestly surprised anyone even takes GameFAQs seriously anymore. I know that when I saw it brought up multiple times during Smash speculation, I was floored. I thought the site was entirely ignored by the vast majority because of how much of a cesspool it was. Nearly everyone I've ever seen doesn't take that place with any bit of seriousness.

I guess I was wrong. That threw me for one heck of a loop.
Normally I agree with you, and it is still a toxic ****ehole, but the PP pages drove me to another big hub of smash talk, and it turns out to be still as toxic, but slightly more Geno-accepting, which I still see as a win (kinda).

About the 78 Day Cycle theory, it's currently give or take 5pm in Scotland right now, and I haven't heard of any announcements, though I do believe that something's coming real soon, and hopefully no Mii Costume. If it still stays, it's not the end of the world to me, but obviously if it isn't there ****s gonna go from 0 to 100 real quick.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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As ironic as it is for me to say it, it really is time to drop the PP talk. Just remember that not everybody should have to like it, and we don't appreciate people being shamed for simply not having the same opinion as you do. That's not fair whatsoever towards them. If you don't like their logic, point out the flaws in their logic. Don't flame them or anything close to it. That's not helping at all.

To note, the reason PP talk was kept going(not helping on my part alone) is that there was civil reasons given as why it's an okay pick. If it was flames on both ends, it'd be ended a long time ago. But it was just negative but not necessarily flaming for the most part. Now it's become heated on both ends and it's no longer a civil conversation at all.

There is no "right or wrong", there is just civil behavior in this case.
 

xpnc

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I hope they go all-out and do a proper CG trailer for Geno. Would be cool if it followed the cutscene at the end of World of Light where all the spirits are flying around and one drifts off and lands in Geno's body. Perfect opportunity to play Geno Awakens at the same time and then switch into a rock version of Beware the Forest's Mushrooms for his gameplay footage. End it with the victory fanfare and his head nod thing
 

EarlTamm

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I hope they go all-out and do a proper CG trailer for Geno. Would be cool if it followed the cutscene at the end of World of Light where all the spirits are flying around and one drifts off and lands in Geno's body. Perfect opportunity to play Geno Awakens at the same time and then switch into a rock version of Beware the Forest's Mushrooms for his gameplay footage. End it with the victory fanfare and his head nod thing
Considering that the Hero trailer was willing to include spoilery WoL content, this is distinctly possible.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Considering that the Hero trailer was willing to include spoilery WoL content, this is distinctly possible.
Though at least it makes sense for DLC characters. By that point, it's expected people have tried out WoL. Also, didn't we get more or less told about the possssed characters by Sakurai?
 

EarlTamm

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Though at least it makes sense for DLC characters. By that point, it's expected people have tried out WoL. Also, didn't we get more or less told about the possssed characters by Sakurai?
We were, but this is implementing a scene from the end of the campaign, so it would still be counted as spoilery.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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We were, but this is implementing a scene from the end of the campaign, so it would still be counted as spoilery.
Oh, never said it wasn't spoilers. But I can see why Sakurai doesn't care as much when the game has been out that long.

It at least fits Hero well, since fighting against the darkness is what they do. Using Link as the other character to help show it off was a good idea too, as he fights dark beings quite often. Actually, speaking of, didn't LoZ come out quite a bit after DQ did? I mean, I remember Link being inspired by Peter Pan, but he might've been somewhat inspired by the DQ1 Hero too, which would make this a great callback.
 

Ovaltine

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Oh, never said it wasn't spoilers. But I can see why Sakurai doesn't care as much when the game has been out that long.

It at least fits Hero well, since fighting against the darkness is what they do. Using Link as the other character to help show it off was a good idea too, as he fights dark beings quite often. Actually, speaking of, didn't LoZ come out quite a bit after DQ did? I mean, I remember Link being inspired by Peter Pan, but he might've been somewhat inspired by the DQ1 Hero too, which would make this a great callback.
There is also the fact that one of the DQ games (forget which) has a RIP Link tombstone, whereas Zelda II has a RIP Erdrick tombstone in the Japanese version. That's also another interesting callback to have Link featured in his trailer when DQ and Zelda made those playful little jabs at one another.
 

Nicnac

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Gotta say, the wait on the other two fighters is killing me! Now that Banjo's in and I only have two more wants, I can't wait until the next announcement of a fighter. The problem is it'll probably be in several months before we find out who's next. Also, is the 78 Day Cycle theory busted yet, or is there a little longer to go?
 

EarlTamm

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Oh, never said it wasn't spoilers. But I can see why Sakurai doesn't care as much when the game has been out that long.

It at least fits Hero well, since fighting against the darkness is what they do. Using Link as the other character to help show it off was a good idea too, as he fights dark beings quite often. Actually, speaking of, didn't LoZ come out quite a bit after DQ did? I mean, I remember Link being inspired by Peter Pan, but he might've been somewhat inspired by the DQ1 Hero too, which would make this a great callback.
If I recall correct, certain design elements were inspired by DQ. The one that I recall is that early Zelda shields were similar to the ones in DQ.
 

Vector Victor

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I'm honestly surprised anyone even takes GameFAQs seriously anymore. I know that when I saw it brought up multiple times during Smash speculation, I was floored. I thought the site was entirely ignored by the vast majority because of how much of a cesspool it was. Nearly everyone I've ever seen doesn't take that place with any bit of seriousness.

I guess I was wrong. That threw me for one heck of a loop.
Which always made me wonder: why on earth did Vergeben stick around on smashFAQs. That site despises him to no end, his name is practically a curse to them, and between him and the site, in the end, all sides came off looking like jerks. The users never seem happy either about anything. How did Verge see other Smash sites if he thought Smash FAQs was an acceptable alternative?
 

GoodGrief741

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There is also the fact that one of the DQ games (forget which) has a RIP Link tombstone, whereas Zelda II has a RIP Erdrick tombstone in the Japanese version. That's also another interesting callback to have Link featured in his trailer when DQ and Zelda made those playful little jabs at one another.
Actually the tombstone is in an FF game.
 
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