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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
Twerk
Smash Rookie
Whats the fastest way to kill your nana and play sopo? Trying to have fun at my local during pools and round 1 games lmaoo
already met AD, met wobbles (super chill bloke), didn't meet the rest lol
OddishGuy
Smash Journeyman
Clanking happens with every character. This small part of the game isn't usually talked about, but if you expect a clank you can make great use of it. After a clank both characters are put in rebound assuming the moves were close enough in damage output (9%). The character who used the weaker move has less rebound lag and can take advantage of the clank.
This works for any character, but ICs have such weak moves (especially D-tilt) that it comes into play more often. We usually hit a character with our moves twice, so the moves by themself don't typically have a lot of damage output. This means that we're typically in an advantageous position if a clank were to occur.
However, clanks are impossible to adequately react to, the rebound window is small so by the time you react to that clank sound your character has been chilling for a while. So here is where we prepare for the clank by inputting something soon after attacking, expecting the clank, this is especially applicable with grab (ICs' grab is preeetty good). You can do a dash grab right after a move. You clank? You get a dash grab. You whiff or hit them? Dash grab doesn't come out, proceed as normal.
Here's a couple of examples of me using this. I'm using *D-tilt against a staled Peach D-smash and inputting dash grab soon after, if I had not clanked the dash grab would not have happened because I would still be in D-tilt animation. The same idea is in progress using a D-smash against a Fox Up-smash.
Link in case gfy doesn't load: http://gfycat.com/TemptingBlaringAmericanbobtail
*It's worth noting that the D-tilt only works because Peach has hit me with 1 or more D-smashes. If her D-smash was fresh I would not be able to clank as she would do more than 9% of D-tilt. I can always clank with here using F-tilt though, which I'd highly recommend.
Players typically don't expect a clank, and if they only react to the clank noise you can typically get a dash grab from the interaction. If a Marth isn't expecting a D-tilt clank for example, you might get a dash grab. Some people react with spot-dodge or jab, but even these shouldn't be fast enough unless someone has super-human reflexes.
This isn't a revolutionary strategy, but it is a very good habit to establish, kind of like CC grabbing after a whiffed move, or going for techs every time you Up-B, stuff like that. The only downside these habit have are the arthritis the extra inputs brings, but we'll talk about the Puff vs Puff meta another day. Thanks for reading ^_^/
This works for any character, but ICs have such weak moves (especially D-tilt) that it comes into play more often. We usually hit a character with our moves twice, so the moves by themself don't typically have a lot of damage output. This means that we're typically in an advantageous position if a clank were to occur.
However, clanks are impossible to adequately react to, the rebound window is small so by the time you react to that clank sound your character has been chilling for a while. So here is where we prepare for the clank by inputting something soon after attacking, expecting the clank, this is especially applicable with grab (ICs' grab is preeetty good). You can do a dash grab right after a move. You clank? You get a dash grab. You whiff or hit them? Dash grab doesn't come out, proceed as normal.
Here's a couple of examples of me using this. I'm using *D-tilt against a staled Peach D-smash and inputting dash grab soon after, if I had not clanked the dash grab would not have happened because I would still be in D-tilt animation. The same idea is in progress using a D-smash against a Fox Up-smash.
*It's worth noting that the D-tilt only works because Peach has hit me with 1 or more D-smashes. If her D-smash was fresh I would not be able to clank as she would do more than 9% of D-tilt. I can always clank with here using F-tilt though, which I'd highly recommend.
Players typically don't expect a clank, and if they only react to the clank noise you can typically get a dash grab from the interaction. If a Marth isn't expecting a D-tilt clank for example, you might get a dash grab. Some people react with spot-dodge or jab, but even these shouldn't be fast enough unless someone has super-human reflexes.
This isn't a revolutionary strategy, but it is a very good habit to establish, kind of like CC grabbing after a whiffed move, or going for techs every time you Up-B, stuff like that. The only downside these habit have are the arthritis the extra inputs brings, but we'll talk about the Puff vs Puff meta another day. Thanks for reading ^_^/
jaseroque
Smash Rookie
Is invincible ledgedash to grab the only option when Marth is dtilting by the ledge? I've lost way too many Sopos at low percents to this. 
OddishGuy
Smash Journeyman
ICs actually have a really good invincible ledgedash. You could try ledge-dash D-smash to tell the Marth to better respect the space.Is invincible ledgedash to grab the only option when Marth is dtilting by the ledge? I've lost way too many Sopos at low percents to this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSCw5DH14t8
Ol Jim Grizzigsby
Smash Rookie
Can someone explain L-cancel desyncs frame by frame? im having trouble finding the timing.
Hey, do you guys have any suggestions for recording devices? I'm willing to spend up to $80 for a device. I want to record matches to be able to upload to a channel and watch whenever I want to. There's this thing and there's also this thing from what I've seen so far, but I know there has to be other options too. Do any of you guys record and/or have suggestions for a good recording device???
Garrett Robinson
Smash Cadet
BIGHOTSLAMJAM
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2015
- Messages
- 5
We have a skype group too! Add me on skype, or send me a pm with your skype details. We have notable Ice Climbers such as FA0/Raitch and Tuesday!!! skype name: jrossbox
Garrett Robinson
Smash Cadet
In my play I continuously wall out my opponents with ice blocks, blizzards, and desynced Nana aerials. Over all I think there is lack of desync centered play and people usually make getting the Wobble their main priority.
TrashWizard
Smash Cadet
Hi, I think I might have found something that is underused or something new, its a tech in which one drops down a platform and then neutral Bs so the bounce of the neutral b pushes them back onto the platform, this means that the landing lag of the move is reduced and you can do a mixup to blizzard drop downif the opponent tries to shark you.
EDIT: In fact, you can defend against any linear approach with the blizzard, provided that you do the correct inputs, as an example if someone tries to approach you in a very linear fashion, by jumping onto the platform you are Ice Block spamming on, you can do the dual way blizzard to get them to back off, and if they are going for a shark, you can drop down blizzard.
If they can somehow get behind you and want to shark then you can reverse your down special and stop their approach with that.
If they try to approach from above I would recommend Uair if they are a floaty and Usmash if they are a fastfaller, due to the nature of fastfallers having more pressure at their disposal from just falling, the best option IMO is a high priority attack that launches them in the air if you hit and allows for a follow up.
It also allows for some people to wall out slower characters very well, due to the decreased speed between a double ice block you get when you use this technique consecutively.
EDIT 2: After labbing it a bit more, the actual launch of the ice block can be cancelled if you have the correct timing, and I dont have a human player to test against, but if the ice blocks do damage while they are in the air before the hit of the hammer, then you can essentially create a VERY small wall on a platform for a small window of time. (EDIT: it doesnt create a hitbox until the actual Ice is hit, but it could still be considered a mixup, as there isnt much consequence for performing it if you are platform camping.)
Sorry if this isnt new, but can someone look for a tech that roughly describes what I am saying?
EDIT 560000000000000: Whether it is or is not new, should I post my analysis of what it can do and the potential of it?
EDIT: In fact, you can defend against any linear approach with the blizzard, provided that you do the correct inputs, as an example if someone tries to approach you in a very linear fashion, by jumping onto the platform you are Ice Block spamming on, you can do the dual way blizzard to get them to back off, and if they are going for a shark, you can drop down blizzard.
If they can somehow get behind you and want to shark then you can reverse your down special and stop their approach with that.
If they try to approach from above I would recommend Uair if they are a floaty and Usmash if they are a fastfaller, due to the nature of fastfallers having more pressure at their disposal from just falling, the best option IMO is a high priority attack that launches them in the air if you hit and allows for a follow up.
It also allows for some people to wall out slower characters very well, due to the decreased speed between a double ice block you get when you use this technique consecutively.
EDIT 2: After labbing it a bit more, the actual launch of the ice block can be cancelled if you have the correct timing, and I dont have a human player to test against, but if the ice blocks do damage while they are in the air before the hit of the hammer, then you can essentially create a VERY small wall on a platform for a small window of time. (EDIT: it doesnt create a hitbox until the actual Ice is hit, but it could still be considered a mixup, as there isnt much consequence for performing it if you are platform camping.)
Sorry if this isnt new, but can someone look for a tech that roughly describes what I am saying?
EDIT 560000000000000: Whether it is or is not new, should I post my analysis of what it can do and the potential of it?
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OddishGuy
Smash Journeyman
The TL;DR is don't Fastfall and try to L-cancel as late as possible.
The L-cancel desync is primarily used from shorthop with no fastfall, you can do it out of Full hop, SHFFL, platform drop aerials, and so on, but the timing has a possibility of becoming harder.
Start a SH, you have 30 frames of airborne time to chill. Start a Fair by frame 28 or as early as frame 1 of being airborne, or start a Bair by frame 23 or as early as frame 12 of being airborne. We can see here that the Bair method is a smaller, more awkward window, so early Fair is the primary move used.
L-cancel 1-2 frames before hitting the ground. If you L-cancel too early, Nana will L-cancel and the desync fails, L-cancel too late and Popo will miss the L-cancel and the desync fails.
Both Bair and Fair have 20 frames of landing lag. This means that with the L-cancel desync Popo only has 10 frames of landing lag and you attain a 10 frame window to do whatever action you please while Nana is in her non-L-canceled lag.
Dazzles are worth considering.
Continuous desynching requires incredibly technical play and awareness. It can often get Nana killed, or in general provide your opponent more openings since it's harder to do everything at 2 times speed, especially SHFFLs. The other downside is that continuous desynching often restricts your movement since you need to stay in range of Nana when you move with Popo and you can't get Nana to move too much due to the force.
It's ultra cool though and something we'll hopefully see more of in the future, just a lot of things to consider if we do anything more than desynched ice blocks.
IIRC this is the fastest way to shoot iceblocks. It's pretty nice, but a lot of ICs hate being on platforms, so take from that what you will. It definitely helps us gain some breathing room and regenerate a shield vs. Samus and such.
LDSenpai
Self loathing ICs Player
Simple question... where is the spike hitbox in fair?
Are you sure? Do you have experience with Dazzles and would you recommend them? I want to get something that's the best bang for my buck, while not being impossible to set up. I'm sorry about the questioning, but I don't want to get screwed again by recording devices.
OddishGuy
Smash Journeyman
It's ID0 so I think it's the innermost hitbox.
I'm never sure, haha. It's recommended to people getting into speedrunning and stuff, it's kind of like the intro recording device. There's not really anything to set up though, pretty much just plug it in and use OBS/AmaRec. I think you might have to google drivers for it but I don't remember. I'm not going to say it's the best thing because I haven't researched the other stuff, that's your job =P
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
You can fastfall and still do an l-cancel desynch...
OddishGuy
Smash Journeyman
I mention that it can be done from SHFFL and such, it just makes it possibly harder. FFing can reduce the window from a 2 frame window to frame perfect execution. For consistent L-cancel desyncs I would not recommend FFing.
not a spike, it's a meteor
SHIP
Smash Apprentice
Hey guys I've been looking into what happens when you dash dance with ice climbers. Its usually considered to not be useful because nana gets very confused by it.
The reason for nana being unable to follow popo's dash dance is her lack of a pivot animation. I have found that when popo pivots nana will do one of two things. If nana has moved an incredibly short distance (such as in a pivot desync) she will simply snap into a standing position. If she has moved any further than that (dashed for more about than 4 or 5 frames) she will enter the run skid animation and come to a stop.
Both of these two situations can allow you to desync nana. In the first case if you input a move a few frames before nana goes to the standing state she will be able to comply while popo will be busy dashing and thus won't be able to do the move. This desync can be seen in wobbles' ice climbers are silly where he called it the defender.
In the second case if you input a move just before her run skid animation ends she will be able to do it. This is a little more difficult to pull off however as you will need to be able to prevent nana from straying too far away while you dash dance. This is very similar to the dash dance blizzard desync although people very rarely do more than the 3 initial dashes which makes it a little difficult to do things like smash attacks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31vdqNLtleQ&feature=youtu.be this video has an example of the desync using a longer dash dance and upsmash.
In addition to these two it is possible to make nana do aerials on her own by inputting them as popo changes direction and is thus stuck in the initial dash animation.
As almost every other character makes use of their dash dance, why can't we? If we study why nana freaks out we may find that this apparent weakness can be turned into a strength. While I have not yet spent much time looking into this I am starting to find patterns which could potentially be useful.
The reason for nana being unable to follow popo's dash dance is her lack of a pivot animation. I have found that when popo pivots nana will do one of two things. If nana has moved an incredibly short distance (such as in a pivot desync) she will simply snap into a standing position. If she has moved any further than that (dashed for more about than 4 or 5 frames) she will enter the run skid animation and come to a stop.
Both of these two situations can allow you to desync nana. In the first case if you input a move a few frames before nana goes to the standing state she will be able to comply while popo will be busy dashing and thus won't be able to do the move. This desync can be seen in wobbles' ice climbers are silly where he called it the defender.
In the second case if you input a move just before her run skid animation ends she will be able to do it. This is a little more difficult to pull off however as you will need to be able to prevent nana from straying too far away while you dash dance. This is very similar to the dash dance blizzard desync although people very rarely do more than the 3 initial dashes which makes it a little difficult to do things like smash attacks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31vdqNLtleQ&feature=youtu.be this video has an example of the desync using a longer dash dance and upsmash.
In addition to these two it is possible to make nana do aerials on her own by inputting them as popo changes direction and is thus stuck in the initial dash animation.
As almost every other character makes use of their dash dance, why can't we? If we study why nana freaks out we may find that this apparent weakness can be turned into a strength. While I have not yet spent much time looking into this I am starting to find patterns which could potentially be useful.
LDSenpai
Self loathing ICs Player
Should I just work on the Peach match up or develop a secondary? There is no good peaches in my little scene, but there are a few in my state that I will run into at a little bigger tournaments.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
It's not that Nana lacks a pivot animation, but that her direction (facing left or right) is updated to match Popo's a frame early. When she receives the input to dash backwards, she has already reoriented to face that direction, and interprets the input as "dash forward". This causes her to continue dashing in whatever direction she was dashing, rather than turning around. It is possible to pivot with Nana, as long as Popo doesn't change orientation 6 frames earlier.
I think I've written this up somewhere before, but the gist is this: Initial dash becomes run if you are holding forward on frame 14 or later. When you dash forward, then dash back, Nana continues to dash in the initial direction due to the reason above. If you then dash in the original direction, Popo resets his initial dash animation, but Nana has already been in hers for several frames (variable depending on how long you waited in between dashes). If you keep holding forward, she enters the run animation well before Popo, allowing her to dash cancel alone (an action not possible during initial dash).
Depending on how you time the dashes, you can make Nana "moonwalk"--although her orientation always mirrors Popo's 6 frames later, it is only updated visually on the first frame of every animation. If you are still dashing backwards past frame 14 of her initial dash, she enters run while still oriented backwards, causing her run animation to face the wrong way.
Skid occurs if you release the control stick to neutral any time after transitioning to run (technically, if an input is read while the control stick X-value is within the tilt turn or dead zone here: http://imgur.com/a/2na5b#0). So, theoretically, you can dash dance and have Nana continually run in place if you perform the dash dance perfectly, never spending enough time in the dead zone for the game to register a non-dash input.
Skid can also be dash cancelled, so functionally it isn't different from run aside from the fact that it terminates the sequence. I mentioned in the desynch extender thread that fox trot can be used to "extend" the dash dance desynch. Once Nana enters run, you can fox trot with Popo (release the control stick and dash forward again once initial dash has ended). Releasing the control stick will cause Nana to enter skid, which she can cancel at any time into a grounded move while Popo is still in his initial dash.
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My tip is, since theres no local peach, avoid playing friendlies as ics against peach as much as possible, that way you can keep them from getting exp in the matchup and can easier win the matchup in tournament, you do not want peach to get experience in the matchup, unless you actually find the way to beat floatcanceled fair, something weve been struggling with for years since it's her main advantage.
Kekker
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2015
- Messages
- 34
ID 0 just means the hitbox has priority over the other hitboxes, it doesn't have to do with the actual hitbox placement. I can check the hitboxes in a couple hours to confirm where the hitbox is (I think it's the hammer, but just comes out later. Will confirm soon).
EDIT: The meteor hitbox for the spike is the hammer. There are two hitboxes there, one is the meteor and one is the normal hitbox. The "normal" hitbox is bigger (1200 compared to the meteor's 700), but the meteor has more priority. If you're close enough when you hit them, they will get meteored.
LDSenpai
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OddishGuy
Smash Journeyman
I was aware this wasn't completely sound reasoning, but I thought it was at least a general trend that the lower #'d hitboxes are typically inwards, guess that was a bad assumption =SID 0 just means the hitbox has priority over the other hitboxes, it doesn't have to do with the actual hitbox placement. I can check the hitboxes in a couple hours to confirm where the hitbox is (I think it's the hammer, but just comes out later. Will confirm soon).
EDIT: The meteor hitbox for the spike is the hammer. There are two hitboxes there, one is the meteor and one is the normal hitbox. The "normal" hitbox is bigger (1200 compared to the meteor's 700), but the meteor has more priority. If you're close enough when you hit them, they will get meteored.
Thanks for the researched answer mate ^_^/
Kekker
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2015
- Messages
- 34
You're welcome. I don't think there's much of a trend for hitbox ID's, it varies with pretty much every move. Some characters have consistent hitbox ID placement, like marth. His tippers tend to be ID 0 I think.
OddishGuy
Smash Journeyman
His tippers are typically the highest ID# except for stuff like D-tilt. Marth's high #'d tipper hitboxes, like F-smash, is what I was basing my assumption on actually, haha. I guess it's safer to not assume patterns though.
Vanitas
Smash Ace
Awesome post. Are you saying that ICs sync'd ftilt will always clank with a Peach downsmash regardless if it is stale or not? I would like to know the option that will work all the time in these scuffles.
IC's sync'd Dtilt clanks with Marth's dtilt correct?
OddishGuy
Smash Journeyman
F-tilt will always clank with Peach D-smash unless F-tilt is very staled (you've hit with F-tilt ~8 times out of your last 9 moves). So F-tilt is the more guaranteed and recommended option. If you're eating a lot of D-smash to the point where you know it's stale, I think D-tilt is a cute option since if it hits, instead of clanking, you can do the hitlag desync off of it.
D-tilt clanks with Marth's D-tilt. However, the window provided from the clank does not guarantee a grab due to how far away you'll be from Marth. This is where we have to rely on the opponent to be unprepared, which IMO is a safe guess. If the opponent is prepared, they can react to the clank with a jab, Up-B, roll, or spot dodge. Most people don't react to clanks this way, and if they just try for another D-tilt we can get the grab. It stinks relying on the opponent's incompetence, but ATM I don't think anyone is able to appropriately react. (maybe Armada?
)
ilysm
sleepy
Garrett Robinson
Smash Cadet
Isn't the solution just to shorthop fair?Hey, any method to beat Marth dtilt a cool 95% of the time is a method I'm a fan of. That sword bugs me. Cheers,OddishGuy !
SHIP
Smash Apprentice
well sort of, you commit a lot with the fair and if they are doing something other than dtilt it can go real poorly.
ilysm
sleepy
Yeah, dtilt isn't exactly reactable. When your Marth sparring partner is generally going nuts with different tilts and aerials as fast as he can, it can be tricky to predict what he's going to do and how to respond to that. If I make a risky move and eat an utilt or fair to the face, I'm getting destroyed. Not that Icies dtilt isn't equally tricky for pretty much the same reasons, but it's nice to know my options, especially if there are more of them than the Marth knows about.
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link7
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2013
- Messages
- 1,081
- Location
- Steilacoom, Washington
- NNID
- Kidlink77
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- 2234-7140-8163
So I'm hosting a side bracket Low Tier only tourney at Pacific Northwest Majors. I was asked if Sopo is legal in low tier tourneys. I don't know enough about Ice Climbers to give him a solid answer. What do you guys think? Should Sopo be legal?
SHIP
Smash Apprentice
Unless you are using only 20xx its really hard to have people play sopo. That said I feel sopo is low tier enough to qualify if you can make it happen.
ilysm
sleepy
You can just double jump off the respawn platform, drift to the edge, then wavedash onstage. Nana will just fall and die and you'll have a little invincibility if you do it right. I recall that Sopo has been allowed in low-tier tournaments in the past. I saw go for it!