Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Smasher89]

why would marth want to go in the air against ICs?[Desynched Iceblocks and blizzard, unless he wants to fight it with throwing out a hitbox.

 

[fatman.spam]

I want to become a really technical Ice climber player, what should I learn?

 

[DerfMidWest]

He can stand outside the range of blizzard than dash->dtilt through iceblock.
The extended desync walls aren't really super safe against marth, unless he's pinned at the edge, but most marth players are bad at dealing with them. I don't think it's good for us to be over-reliant on that though.
Blizzard is nice, as well as ice blocks to catch marth in dash away, but it shouldn't force him off the ground because he can straight outplay ICs there if he has space.

 

[OddishGuy]

I want to become a really technical Ice climber player, what should I learn?

It's always good to learn the fundamentals and whatnot first. WDing with a shield up, WD OoS to stuff, long and short WDing, DDing and general movement stuff. Sheild drops are not the most useful thing for ICs, but it's definitely worth learning.

Some of the more technical IC stuff is in desyncs. Pivot desyncs, fast DD desyncs, and L-cance desyncs are some of the more useful things that have very small windows to execute correctly (DD is pretty long but you can make it fast). Solo Nana waveland on platform desync and Waveland off platform to solo Popo aerial is somewhat useful and technical.

Auto canceled short hop Upairs are pretty technical, and short hop fast falled auto cancelled Bairs are technical too. Both are super useful. You can DD before the SH to stagger these attacks for tons of coverage.

Sopo up-B edge-stalling is frame perfect. Ledge-dashing is definitely worth perfecting.

Some really obscure technical stuff includes Fly's tether grab whiff to inescapable wobble setup (roll desync, Nana jump, Popo turn around light sheild, Nana blizzard, Popo grab). There's another one for Rest (Up throw Fair meteor smash to regrab or something, might be escapable). Aerial interrupts onto rising FoD platforms are possible with Upair and Nair, pretty much useless, the best kind of technical stuff :D

 

[bomono3]

cant you just desycnh ice block and grab them during rebound.

if they dash back they either have to jump or shield, and if they dash forward they are still hit by the desynched ice block and you can grab them.

we don't have many local marth players around here so i'm not sure if it would work but wouldn't just doing that and dashing forward into grab be the best way to deal with it?

On a unrelated note, guard ftilt desynch can lead into a nanapult if you are (i think) frame perfect.

here is a example

http://gfycat.com/DetailedSecondHadrosaurus

popo is actionable as soon as you see him crouch, so it is basically a nanapult with full control of popo. so its a nanapult in neutral.

i think this could be huge for edguarding, the ftilt can catch a side-b on stage while the nanapult onto the platform would allow for nana to cover high options, meanwhile you can turn around and grab ledge as popo to cover if they up-b high and try to sweet spot the edge.

edit: this edgeguard is only viable on pokemon stadium, yoshis and some platform arrangements on fountain of dreams.

edit: what do you guys think of the uses of a z powershield considering that fact that it makes powershielding normal attacks easier and due to the fact that you can drop a powershield immediately into anything you want EG. jab or ftilt in the opposite direction, or perhaps simply drop shield into dash grab. how viable do you think this could be vs characters who can overshoot aerials on purpose sometimes and due to the fact that a z powershield sends you further, the dash out into grab could be a viable means of punishment due to you being closer to their landing position. could consistently z powershielding be a legitimate strategy.

 

[OddishGuy]

cant you just desycnh ice block and grab them during rebound.

if they dash back they either have to jump or shield, and if they dash forward they are still hit by the desynched ice block and you can grab them.

we don't have many local marth players around here so i'm not sure if it would work but wouldn't just doing that and dashing forward into grab be the best way to deal with it?

On a unrelated note, guard ftilt desynch can lead into a nanapult if you are (i think) frame perfect.

here is a example

http://gfycat.com/DetailedSecondHadrosaurus

popo is actionable as soon as you see him crouch, so it is basically a nanapult with full control of popo. so its a nanapult in neutral.

i think this could be huge for edguarding, the ftilt can catch a side-b on stage while the nanapult onto the platform would allow for nana to cover high options, meanwhile you can turn around and grab ledge as popo to cover if they up-b high and try to sweet spot the edge.

edit: this edgeguard is only viable on pokemon stadium, yoshis and some platform arrangements on fountain of dreams.

edit: what do you guys think of the uses of a z powershield considering that fact that it makes powershielding normal attacks easier and due to the fact that you can drop a powershield immediately into anything you want EG. jab or ftilt in the opposite direction, or perhaps simply drop shield into dash grab. how viable do you think this could be vs characters who can overshoot aerials on purpose sometimes and due to the fact that a z powershield sends you further, the dash out into grab could be a viable means of punishment due to you being closer to their landing position. could consistently z powershielding be a legitimate strategy.

They should just be able to slash through iceblocks, no clanging rebound, so the Popo will likely get hit if they try to approach on the ground, even with an iceblock.

Nanapult can be executed in around 4 frames, guard desync gives you around 10 frames to execute it

I need to work on Z-powershielding. I can't test it in debug mode, which stinks, but I think it's good. I think Nana will still get hit often though.
All I can really say is that I wish I could test it ;_;

 

[bomono3]

Nanapult can be executed in around 4 frames, guard desync gives you around 10 frames to execute it

nana is behind by 6 frames, jab 1 has a ISAI of 16, 16 + 6 = 22. ftilt has a ISAI of 28. 28-22 = 6
jump squat is 4 frames, dash takes 1 frame to execute, blizzard takes 1 frame to input. 4+1+1 =6

total number of frames needed to execute = 6
total available frames = 6
its a frame perfect trick.
its super freaking hard, but well worth the effort it takes to learn.

edit: honestly i feel like the powershield drop to tilt meta can be expanded upon massaivly by using the z powershield.

the charged fsmash to upthrow or fthrow DI mixup is so much fun.

but nothing is better than calling somebody out on their inwards DI and charging the fmsash backwards and then downthrowing them and hitting them with the tip of the fmsash because they always survival di.

fthrow to ice block strong hit to double upair or belay at some percents vs marth is a great way to rack on percent vs someone who DIs in a ton. the same thing except insted of using upair using dash attack vs fox can lead into some sick nasty combos vs a initial survival di.

another edit ebcause im horrible at posting all i want to post at once.

a very basic thing i started to pick up that has helped me greatly is fthrow to fair near the ledge but not off the stage into techase, because your near the ledge you can actually cover all the options on reaction if you have a good reaction time. its free damage and a good setup if you believe they will sdi a downthrow dair setup as a techase is guaranteed, just generally a good option when you don't have enough time to start a wobble yet, or when wobbling is banned as if they take 3 of the 4 techase options it can lead into a handoff.

 

[OddishGuy]

Z-powershielding is... argh.
Can Nana Z-PS? Or does she just grab?
To execute a Z-PS it's hold A, press Z and DP R or L trigger right? There were threads saying that holding A isn't needed, so I'm unsure.

Melee is so hard to understand when it's not moving one frame at a time ;_;

nana is behind by 6 frames, jab 1 has a ISAI of 16, 16 + 6 = 22. ftilt has a ISAI of 28. 28-22 = 6
jump squat is 4 frames, dash takes 1 frame to execute, blizzard takes 1 frame to input. 4+1+1 =6

total number of frames needed to execute = 6
total available frames = 6
its a frame perfect trick.
its super freaking hard, but well worth the effort it takes to learn.

edit: honestly i feel like the powershield drop to tilt meta can be expanded upon massaivly by using the z powershield.

Eh, I was wrong about Nanapult, for some reason I was thinking Dash->Jump in one frame. Should be 5 frames instead of 4 like I said earlier.
1> Dash
2> Jump 0
3> Jump 1
4> Jump 2
5> Blizzard (airborne on this frame)

TBH I've never tried guard-> Nanapult. I'll look at the frame by frame.

Bomono is the reason behind half my lab time recently; you will be the death of me @_@

EDIT: You have an 11 frame window to execute the Nanapult from a guard desync.

 

[bomono3]

EDIT: You have an 11 frame window to execute the Nanapult from a guard desync.

i need proof, the frame data's math does not line up with what you are claiming.
your # of frames is true if it was not for that fact that there is a 6 frame delay between both climbers.
if you hold a then nana grabs during the z power shield, there are ways to avoid this though, most notably desynched powershielding.

be sure to remember that if you dash out of nana jumping forward you can extend the maximum frames via preventing popo from blizzarding while in dash, though this is not part of the base frame data.

edit: after some testing it appears you are right, but i'm not sure why this is.

 

[Kyu Puff]

i need proof, the frame data's math does not line up with what you are claiming.
your # of frames is true if it was not for that fact that there is a 6 frame delay between both climbers.
if you hold a then nana grabs during the z power shield, there are ways to avoid this though, most notably desynched powershielding.

be sure to remember that if you dash out of nana jumping forward you can extend the maximum frames via preventing popo from blizzarding while in dash, though this is not part of the base frame data.

edit: after some testing it appears you are right, but i'm not sure why this is.

Nana reads her input 6 frames in advance. Even though her jab is interruptible on frame 22, you can give her inputs anywhere during the window from 16-27 and she will respond 6 frames later.

 

[OddishGuy]

What Kyu said.

I think it should be a 12 frame window like I originally said, but when I went frame by frame it looked like an 11 frame window.

I might just suck at counting though. Either way it's really hard to do, but plausible.

 

[bomono3]

Nana reads her input 6 frames in advance. Even though her jab is interruptible on frame 22, you can give her inputs anywhere during the window from 16-27 and she will respond 6 frames later.

i see, basic messup on my math.

though i think the nanapult in neutral could be very useful. especially vs peach, if she gets hit by it she is put into a position where she either falls and lands leading to a potential for a punish, or she double jumps, which is very slow and possible to punish on reaction, it commands a bit of respect in the area in front of you.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Z-powershielding is... argh.
Can Nana Z-PS? Or does she just grab?
To execute a Z-PS it's hold A, press Z and DP R or L trigger right? There were threads saying that holding A isn't needed, so I'm unsure.

Yes, you buffer A and then press Z + digital press at the same time. As long as you stop pressing A at least 6 frames before shield stun ends, Nana won't grab.

I did find this way to light powershield without pressing A. However, it is vulnerable to physical attacks during frames 1 and 2, so it's not as useful (though Kadano notes that it might still be useful for powershielding projectiles).

Z-PS basically makes it easier to powershield stuff (because it only needs to be within the range of your lightshield), at the cost of increased pushback and extra shield stun (it is the same amount of shield stun you would experience using the largest possible lightshield).

I experimented with it a bit when it was first discovered. It doesn't seem particularly useful for landing grabs, because you actually experience increased shield stun, and the typical advantage of being able to bypass the shield drop animation is moot because you can grab out of shield regardless. However, one application I found was Z-PS -> f-smash, which seemed to work pretty reliably for moves like Fox's n-air. It's cool because the initial hit pushes you out of range for any follow-up pressure, but it's still possible to counterattack as you're sliding away. Dash attack might also work (though I can't remember if I ever tried).

Things to keep in mind: It's definitely possible to powershield moves with both Ice Climbers--the more hitlag there is, the more likely Nana is to shield while the opponent's hitbox is frozen in place, giving her the opportunity powershield as well. However, this is more relevant for attacks than for projectiles, because if Nana also powershields the projectile, it just ends up getting sent in the original direction (or absorbed by Popo's shield? Might need to check on this.) ICs are generally pretty terrible at powershielding projectiles, and the only way to do it effectively is with horizontal displacement between the Climbers' respective shields (for example, with forward momentum so that Nana lags behind you). I don't think Z-PS would help ICs with projectiles, because the further inside Popo's shield the projectile is, the more likely it is to get absorbed/redirected by Nana.

One other thing: Shieldstun desynch seems more relevant than ever here. I'll be right back with a cool gif (hopefully).

 

[bomono3]

I experimented with it a bit when it was first discovered. It doesn't seem particularly useful for landing grabs, because you actually experience increased shield stun, and the typical advantage of being able to bypass the shield drop animation is moot because you can grab out of shield regardless. However, one application I found was Z-PS -> f-smash, which seemed to work pretty reliably for moves like Fox's n-air. It's cool because the initial hit pushes you out of range for any follow-up pressure, but it's still possible to counterattack as you're sliding away. Dash attack might also work (though I can't remember if I ever tried).

what about just dropping shield, dash forward JCgrab

 

[Kyu Puff]

what about just dropping shield, dash forward JCgrab

I don't think there's much of a point. You gain a 6 frame advantage from powershielding (due to hitlag induced by Nana), but you lose many more frames due to increased shield stun from the lightshield, plus however many frames you spend dashing forward to compensate for the pushback. It seems strictly worse than regular shieldgrabbing to me.

EDIT: Actually, I don't think it's even possible to interrupt the GuardOff animation with dash. You're limited to ground attacks, spotdodge, or jump from what I can tell.

Normal powershielding, done perfectly, on the other hand, can sometimes net you a free grab. The reason is that their move first hits Popo's shield, inducing hitlag, and then 6 frames later hits Nana's shield, essentially giving Popo +6 frames on the opponent. As long as you aren't pushed too far back, you have a pretty solid chance at shieldgrabbing anything after that.

The problem is that landing a normal powershield with both Climbers is far more difficult, sometimes not even possible--if the move does less than 6 frames of hitlag, the opponent's hitbox might continue and hit Nana before her shield can come up. Also, the hitbox often overlaps Popo's shield and Nana's hurtbox on the same frame--this is much easier to avoid with the Z-PS, because there's a larger area between Nana's hurtbox and the edge of Popo's shield.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Update on shield stun desynch from powershield:

Generally, shield stun desynch works because both Climbers enter shield stun at the same time, but Nana can read inputs 6 frames earlier than Popo, giving you a 6 frame window to desynch (more if Popo is lightshielding and Nana is hardshielding). In the "ideal" powershield case, this doesn't happen, because Popo's shield emerges as it overlaps the opponent's hitbox. Then, 6 frames later, Nana's shield comes out, putting her in shield stun 6 frames later than Popo. Thus, there is no window during which Nana can read inputs but Popo cannot, and no shield stun desynch.

With that said, there are always exceptions--there are a few cases where there might only be a 2-5 frame separation between when Popo and Nana enter shield stun respectively. However, the timing would be situational and inconsistent so I'm not sure it's ever worth attempting.

 

[bomono3]

on the topic of stun based desynchs i like when you ftilt with both climbers but only popos ftilt hits in time so you get a free desynch off the hitlag, this can be great for edgaurding as nana can then do a ice block while popo grabs ledge to egdeguard the spacie who was sent down by the fitlt.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Z-PS doesn't always improve the frame window for PSing. I've even observed an instance of it shrinking the window for PSing a Falco laser as Popo. I'm not generally a big enthusiast of the technique. It's neat against some slow-moving projectiles, though.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Z-PS doesn't always improve the frame window for PSing. I've even observed an instance of it shrinking the window for PSing a Falco laser as Popo. I'm not generally a big enthusiast of the technique. It's neat against some slow-moving projectiles, though.

That's strange, what was the situation?

 

[bomono3]

That's strange, what was the situation?

i imagine its due to the fact that the shield must fully encompass a hitbox of a projectile when expanding, but because the shield is so large it grows to a slightly less than normal shield then a longer one that does not properly powershield the attack as the attack already hit the less than larger one.

 

[Fugibean]

I see that we've kind of moved onto the topic of power shielding, but I'd thought I would summarize what I learned from my everlasting mission to not lose to Marth's dtilt all the time. I took Kyu and Oddish suggestions of triangle jumping and clanking with his dtilt using my dtilt.

1. Using any of these strategies (shffl'd fairs, triangle jumping, and IC's dilit) you pretty much need a read to beat his dtilt.

2. With triangle jumping you really need to land behind the Marth. Which is probably obvious to many of you but I thought I could maybe punish between his dtilts.

3. Trianlge jumping is nice because if the Marth is baiting you challenge his dtilt and is ready to up tilt to punish you for approaching. You can triangle jump super accurately into the center of Marth's body and not get his by the uptilt. Which also for a nice punish often a grab.

4. Clanking with dtilt is hard but I think it might be the safest and best thing to combat the dtilt. Unlike the other two options you don't need to enter Marth's realm of disjointed hitboxes. If you wavedash in with dtilt such that you don't slide into Marth's zone after the dtilt, he really can't punish you even if you miss or Marth doesn't dtilt. I believe dtilt is his longest range move so he can't really hit you if you're just outside of d-tilt zone. I'm not sure though. When I exucuted this well it often lead to a good punish, but since the timing and precision of this is difficult I got punished a lot. If mastered I think that this could go far, but I could be wrong.

5. It is nice to make three different options to mix up your approach against dtilt. While before Marth could use dtilt as a bait to punish the predictable shffl'd fair. Using all options forces the Marth to think a bit more about when he wants to dtilt instead of throwing them out all the time punish-free.

6. Using shffl'd fair and triangle jumping is nice because for both you jump so the Marth can't really be sure what you're going to do so he can't react as easily. Also using a landing desync from an empty short hop to blizzard with Nana right outside of his dtilt range can be good because I think blizzard beats dtilt if spaced expertly because Marth extends his hurtbox. Again not sure about that. But anyway I thought using these three together was very good because all of them require jumping so Marth can't tell what you're doing until you do it.

Alright that's all I got. Hopefully people can understand what I'm saying. Its really hard to describe a situation in words, but I tried. Hopefully we can continue to think of creative ways to beat dtilt. Although I think the clanking dtilt is pretty good and I will be practicing this. I will really try anything lol I hate losing to Marth when he uses two moves (dtilt and fair) its beyond dumb. My goal is that one day any time a Marth dtilts he will be punished by a wobble.

On a side note I don't know if this is well know but ICs ftilt beats Marth's approaching fair very easily.

 

[bomono3]

dtilt clank with marth's dtilt gives you a 1 to 2 frame advanatge if you hit with popo, if you hit with nana and both climbers swing you get a 15 frame disadvantage. if both climbers hit you get a 1 frame advantage.

if nana ice blocks and marth clanks with the projectile you have 4-5 frames of advantage on marth using popo as marth is in the rebound animation.

edit: its a 11 to 10 frame advantage.

http://gfycat.com/DependentNeighboringFattaileddunnart

here have a 20 frame until popo is activatable desynch, have no idea if somebody has posted this before so whatevs.

http://gfycat.com/AgedDisastrousDalmatian

good for when you need to cover 2 options that a single opponents movement option can cover.

also here are some dashdance desynchs, good for if you are playing a a bait game with your options out of dashdance or just in neutral.

popo ice block out of triple dash http://gfycat.com/EsteemedPiercingCleanerwrasse

nana ice block out of quint dash http://gfycat.com/DeficientSeveralHagfish

the next 2 desynchs can only be charged by holding down a and pressing the cstick. holding down z also works.

nana charged smash attack out of double dash. http://gfycat.com/PowerlessAdmirableCottontail

also, for those who don't know how to charge 2 separate smash attacks at the same time im here to help. press and hold a, preform a desynch, then proceed to use the cstick to charge whatever smash you desire, then use the cstick to input the smash attack you want popo to do, all whilst holding a.

http://gfycat.com/FearlessElatedAntbear

here is a very simple shieldstun based desynch using the nana light shield popo hard shield. (this shield combination can be done by pressing down the analog stick.)

http://gfycat.com/ClearBiodegradableBirdofparadise

the marth killer 2.0, i dub thee the marth destroyer.

http://imgur.com/Vr5RkQA

here is a little quirk about backthrow, it can reverse the direction that nana or popo are facing mid air.

http://gfycat.com/RepentantGlaringHamster

that is all i have for today.

note: the fthrow to nana ice block strong hit i was talking about is guaranteed on any di when you do the fthrow, but followups after that are limited to DI in.

edit here is a gif of what i am talking about. http://gfycat.com/DesertedAmusingAcornbarnacle

in general this is useful when you don't want to commit to a fthrow dash attack which requires a di in to hit, but are still trying to read a di in.

you can also donthrow to the strong hit simmilar to a handoff, this could be used as a mixup for when you would normally go for a downthrow upsmash, and when they Di in towards the larger half of the stage in order to not lose as much stage position, so if you are facing the edge and they di in to lose less stage positioning you can follow up. it also hits marth closer than dash attack does and is guaranteed at just about any percent.

edit: encase you dont know the data.

ice block strong hit does 9 damage, has a base knockback of 80, a knockback growth of 60, and a angle of 80.

dash attack has a damage of 9, a base knockback of 90, a knockback growth of 40, and a angle of 80.

ANOTHER EDIT: forgot to include one dashdance desynch

nana solo aerial out of dashdance. http://gfycat.com/LegalWhiteDore

this can be used to maintain a acceptable and steady dashdance, best used with a move that auto cancels.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

That's strange, what was the situation?

I was standing in place on the left side of FD, facing right, PSing a laser coming in from the right. I no longer have the video or save state, though.

 

[_Snover_]

Not 100% sure that this is the right place to be posting this, but how can I improve from this match? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLRcn-zdx9U

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

I also played against a Falcon that beat me, but that VoD isn't up yet. This is the only recent recording of my play. :/

 

[OddishGuy]

dtilt clank with marth's dtilt gives you a 1 to 2 frame advanatge if you hit with popo, if you hit with nana and both climbers swing you get a 15 frame disadvantage. if both climbers hit you get a 1 frame advantage.

Sopo clank with Marth D-tilt should give you 2-3 frame advantage. It will almost always give 2 frames of advantage though. You can get a 1 frame advantage, but this should only happen if you mess up your spacing horribly and if the Marth has really really staled his D-tilt from poking you a ton.
Assuming you'll get 2 frames is pretty reliable.

 

[MCMike]

Guuys, can someone help me ? im trying to learn woobbles but, how dou you start the infinite, well i wait until nana finish her animation then A and inmidatly tilt down, but mostly missed the infinity, can someone explain me? :CC

 

[bomono3]

Sopo clank with Marth D-tilt should give you 2-3 frame advantage. It will almost always give 2 frames of advantage though. You can get a 1 frame advantage, but this should only happen if you mess up your spacing horribly and if the Marth has really really staled his D-tilt from poking you a ton.
Assuming you'll get 2 frames is pretty reliable.

marth tippered dtilt does 10 damage
marth untippered does 8
ice climber dtilt does 5

[6.6+10*0.558] - [6.6+5*0.558] = 3

[6.6+8*0.558] - [6.6+5*0.558] = 2

its a 3 to 2 frame advantage.

have no idea why i messed that math up

 

[jaseroque]

I'm a beginner learning ICs. I heard somewhere that the ICs' dash grab is safer than the JC grab but couldn't find the evidence behind it. Is it true and should I just dash grab only?

 

[Benny P]

I'm a beginner learning ICs. I heard somewhere that the ICs' dash grab is safer than the JC grab but couldn't find the evidence behind it. Is it true and should I just dash grab only?

I dunno, but the Missed Dash grab has WAY more lag than a normal or JC grab miss. Dash grab is probably good only in certain circumstances where you think you know where the opponent will be, or if you catch em in blizzard and cbf doing a JC grab.

 

[eclipsis17]

I believe dash grab is faster, but has far more end lag. In addition, if you dash grab while synced and connect the grab at the start of the dash, Nana will whiff the grab and be further away and in more lag then if you had JC grabbed, leaving your opponent more time to mash out of a punish. I do prefer JC grabs but dash grab certainly does have uses.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Dash grab has 10 frames more ending lag. They are active on the same frames (7-8), but JC grab is at least one frame slower due to the jumpsquat animation.

The main difference in my mind is that dash grab extends a little bit more forward, and JC grab extends a little higher vertically. You can check out the hitboxes in this thread.

 

[OddishGuy]

marth tippered dtilt does 10 damage
marth untippered does 8
ice climber dtilt does 5

[6.6+10*0.558] - [6.6+5*0.558] = 3

[6.6+8*0.558] - [6.6+5*0.558] = 2

its a 3 to 2 frame advantage.

have no idea why i messed that math up

Uhmmmmm dang. I just realized I messed the math up as well in my earlier posts.
[6.6 + 10 * 0.558] =/= 11
wow

Well, good news, this means that the Sopo clang will often be 3 frames instead of 2, and that a 4 frame advantage is possible, but will likely never happen.

The thing about hitting the tipper'd hitbox vs. the not tippered, is that if the tipper'd hitbox and the non tipper'd hitbox both hit the Sopo D-tilt (this will often happen) the tipper'd hitbox kind of overrides the non tipper'd, meaning we'd clang with that and get the extra frame or so of advantage.

Shoutouts to math for being easy to mess up.

TL;DR, can expect a 3 frame advantage instead of a 2 frame that my earlier post said.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Can f-tilt clang with d-tilt or is the hitbox too high?

 

[bomono3]

here is another batch of stuff for you guys

Got some Di mixups on your kill throws vs falcon.

Forward smash upthrow mixup http://gfycat.com/PerfectLawfulBanteng

Reverse forward smash downthrow reverse hit http://gfycat.com/CarefreeCalmAsiaticlesserfreshwaterclam

reverse forward smash downthrow proper hit http://gfycat.com/ComposedSleepyIndri

Note: these mixups are completely worthless because fsmash sends at a 0 degree angle, meaning the optimal di angle is up, thankfully lots of people don't know that. infact ice climbers only moves that send at a diagonal angle are his forward throw with a angle of 45, his backthrow with a angle of 60, and his getup attack with an angle of 60

its also to important that some of these throws can be amsah teched and some cant, mixing both of these up can be used to bait them out or to bait out bad DI due to the amsah tech attempt

some di mixups on normal throws vs falcon

backthrow dash attack as a di mixup http://gfycat.com/MixedPointlessCub

dowthrow into stationary ice block to backair to catch di vs a potential fsmash, mainly used to build damage and send them out farther due to the percent built up http://gfycat.com/RespectfulChillyCur

downthrow into uptilt vs falcon is garunteed to connect, but after the first hit sdi makes this combo useless, but we all know that guy who cant sdi
though if you predict which direction they will sdi you can potentially get a regrab at low precents where they don't go high enough to have enough time to jump http://gfycat.com/ReadyFinishedChrysomelid

AMSAH TECH TRAPS

it is fair to note that if they are DIing down along with ASDI down to attempt a amsah tech the uptilt will send them in a area at low percents where you can get a guaranteed regrab as they are ASDIing down which sends them right into your grab. you can almost always guess which direction they will Di because its down and away, so there is no guesswork if you are trying to catch a amsah tech. http://gfycat.com/VigorousHighlevelHarrier

if your ice block strong hit has to have not been in the stales move que more than 1 time. if you grab then ice block strong hit with nana, then if the opponent is a fox, he will tech and if you dash forward and grab, you can catch him out of the getup. there are also a bunch of seemingly random things that determine whether the ice block will hit them out of the grab, i have no idea why this is. i would not recommend this due to how finicky it is, the only thing consistent about it is that it will always work for the first two ice blocks of any game. http://gfycat.com/EcstaticRemarkableIbex

One last di mixup, if you dash jump canceled grab into charged fsmash, if you let them escape the grab you force them to make a movement option, to either move forward or move backwards, due to fsmashe's angle being 0 either option wil lgive them bad di, if they choose not to move they still eat a fsmash, the only option they really have at that point is to jump, but most people will opt not to do this, so you can usually get a near fully charged fsmash with bad di on them. http://gfycat.com/SeparateMistyBarracuda

that is all i got for tonight.

 

[bomono3]

Can f-tilt clang with d-tilt or is the hitbox too high?

it can, hell even side-b can clank with dtilt if spaced right, it just doesn't reach farther due to facing the angle slightly lower.

EDIT heres a gif of both

ftilt clanking with dtilt http://gfycat.com/ThoroughMadeupBelugawhale

side-b clanking with dtilt http://gfycat.com/GiganticSelfreliantFinch

Guuys, can someone help me ? im trying to learn woobbles but, how dou you start the infinite, well i wait until nana finish her animation then A and inmidatly tilt down, but mostly missed the infinity, can someone explain me? :CC

We have a sticky for this, if you cant get it the timing can be found ingame if you hold down and away from the direction you're facing and press a, if you jab hold that position, now try to do the first hit of jab consecutively as fast as you can, the fastest speed is the same tempo as a wobble.

Not 100% sure that this is the right place to be posting this, but how can I improve from this match? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLRcn-zdx9U

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

I also played against a Falcon that beat me, but that VoD isn't up yet. This is the only recent recording of my play. :/

gonna tell you the tip that helped me the most, just look for why you got hit, and look for your habits.

ATTENTION: PSA REGARDING GRABS

use boost grab to keep nana from sliding past you when you land a grab, if you input the dash attack on frame 1 and the grab on frame 2 its the same framedata as a JC grab (for when grab comes out not for how long grab lasts)

JC grab http://gfycat.com/NaughtySecondhandAphid

Boostgrab http://gfycat.com/LameNarrowHalcyon

 

[Vanitas]

What would be some of the better options to do after an ftilt/dtilt/squall hammer clanking with the Marth dtilt though?

 

[Fugibean]

What would be some of the better options to do after an ftilt/dtilt/squall hammer clanking with the Marth dtilt though?

Well grab is the goal cause you know... tap tap tap tap tap tap tap

 

[Vanitas]

Well grab is the goal cause you know... tap tap tap tap tap tap tap

Assuming after a spaced Marth dtilt clank, even with a +3 frame advantage, Marth could pretty much dash away and reestablish neutral after the clank to avoid a grab. A grab might be possible if they space horribly though

 

[bomono3]

i think i'm in the minority when i say that i think the marth dtilt clank is a bad option. it requires amazing spacing, is not safe vs WD forward dtilt, does not cover WD back dtilt, has a difficult timing, is not safe on shield, requires a hard read on their movement, and even then if you manage to land the clank you need a frame perfect input to get to marth and you cant even crouch cancel the jabs marth might do if you miss the frame advantage timing. i feel like its way too dangerous to do and is straight up bad IMO. if you are gonna make a commitment to a read like that you might as well just wd forward into dash back dash forward boost grab so nana doesn't fly off, into a wobble, i just don't see the point. the boost grab is roughly the same amount of frames of commitment and has a much higher reward. hell even dash attack seems like a better option, atleast then if they WD forward and dtilt they miss.

edit: if you still wanna crouch cancel and punish then i recommend holding the analog stick down and away at a specific angle where it does jab but your still crouch and doing that crouch cancel into jab if you have time to WD in and downtilt you have time to wd in and jab

 

[OddishGuy]

i think i'm in the minority when i say that i think the marth dtilt clank is a bad option. it requires amazing spacing, is not safe vs WD forward dtilt, does not cover WD back dtilt, has a difficult timing, is not safe on shield, requires a hard read on their movement, and even then if you manage to land the clank you need a frame perfect input to get to marth and you cant even crouch cancel the jabs marth might do if you miss the frame advantage timing. i feel like its way too dangerous to do and is straight up bad IMO. if you are gonna make a commitment to a read like that you might as well just wd forward into dash back dash forward boost grab so nana doesn't fly off, into a wobble, i just don't see the point. the boost grab is roughly the same amount of frames of commitment and has a much higher reward. hell even dash attack seems like a better option, atleast then if they WD forward and dtilt they miss.

edit: if you still wanna crouch cancel and punish then i recommend holding the analog stick down and away at a specific angle where it does jab but your still crouch and doing that crouch cancel into jab.

The point is that you don't need to be right next to Marth to clank. You can pretty safely throw this out in neutral. If you're close enough to the Marth that they can shield the D-tilt you're doing it wrong =/

TBH though I think this entire MU is read based. Besides blizzard, ICs don't have a lot that beats multiple Marth options, so you have to commit to something before the Marth, while he plays the reactionary role.