Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Smasher89]

uptilt can be sdi'd as long as you dont play i think the first version of the ntsc version. Techchhase is a decent option, especially if nana is near since you can walk with her to apply pressure that way and then usually react(also good as a mixup since its not expected since its "a smaller punish for getting a grab". Hard but doable.

 

[OddishGuy]

The hitlag desync also works with pivot D-smash. So turn away from opponent, D-smash, Popo hits, Nana whiffs, do stuff. Seems much less useful then the D-tilt desync since you are now facing away from the opponent and there's no way to get Nana to iceblock or blizzard in that direction =/

I think I found a viable alternative to dthrow dair wobble setup.

>Synced grab (nana slides in front)
>Pummel (nana still in grab whiff animation)
>Nana-uptilt (popo in pummel animation)
At this point Nana should be sliding back to popo while preforming an uptilt hitting the grabbed opponent many times (tested on Fox, falco and other viable characters, may not work on puff/short characters)
>Pummel into wobble.

The opponent can break out anytime before the uptilt hits them. It is easier to break out of this then the dthrow dair, but you can't DI out of this uptilt setup, as you can DI out of dthrow dair fairly easily. Might be useful as a mixup if they're more focused on DIing the dthrow dair instead of trying to mash out.

You can also use jab as the hitbox does go around near the back of Nana at the late part of the swing. OR. ORRRRRRR For way more swag points, you can have Nana Fair/Nair to keep the wobble going. FINALLY! It's finally practical in some way! We finally did it, aerials in wobbles, the day has finally come! C;

But seriously, Nair seems pretty optimal here, if done correctly, the opponent has no chance to escape the wobble once the first pummel connects.

EDIT: So play by play
>Synced grab
>Pummel (Nana whiffing the grab still, looking silly)
>SH Nair
>L-cancel with Z (this makes Popo start a pummel)
>Wobble baby

The benefit of doing Fair is that your stick will now be facing > so you can easily tilt, but you may F-throw if mistimed.

 

[Army805]

You can SH FF autocancel B-airs, but to SH autocancel U-air you do not fastfall, correct?

 

[Smog]

Are there any videos of people playing matchups really well that people know of?

 

[OddishGuy]

You can SH FF autocancel B-airs, but to SH autocancel U-air you do not fastfall, correct?

Correct. Technically you could FF near the very end, but you'd have to be close to perfect.

 

[Vanitas]

I was messing with staggered aerials more and found a stupidly situational edgeguard. If you do a staggered bair near the edge (in such manner that Nana is closer to the edge), Nana will literally "warp" almost at edge height and do the bair there. It's literally the dash back and jump - aerial input if people are wondering how to do staggered aerials. I don't have the means to produce a gfycat of this, but maybe someone else can? (@ OddishGuy please? :D) Right now, I can't really think of the uses for this other than edgeguarding a spacies illusion maybe but I wouldn't throw Nana to the edge to maybe get meteored by Falco's.

 

[OddishGuy]

I've been practicing SDing Fox Upairs and it seems that behind down is the best direction to SDI. So if Fox is facing right > then seems to get out of the 2nd hit most consistently (disregarding regular DI and Fox air movement). Right and left don't seem to avoid it, and straight down or up don't evade the 2nd hit as well.

Anyone know why this is? I'm assuming it's just the position of the climber's hurtboxes in hitstun, but it just seems so weird that a diagonal direction is what's working best.

EDIT: Upon closer inspection, I think it's the climber's dang foot. If I SDI behind the Fox the foot gets clipped, but SDIing behind and back makes the foot below the hitbox while the rest of the climber is safely out of reach to the side.

I was messing with staggered aerials more and found a stupidly situational edgeguard. If you do a staggered bair near the edge (in such manner that Nana is closer to the edge), Nana will literally "warp" almost at edge height and do the bair there. It's literally the dash back and jump - aerial input if people are wondering how to do staggered aerials. I don't have the means to produce a gfycat of this, but maybe someone else can? (@ OddishGuy please? :D) Right now, I can't really think of the uses for this other than edgeguarding a spacies illusion maybe but I wouldn't throw Nana to the edge to maybe get meteored by Falco's.

I seem to be unable to replicate this; I'm likely misunderstanding you.

I am a little less than a roll away from ledge. Dash towards ledge, dash away, SH staggered Bair. Popo lands from Bair, Nana lands and runs to Popo.

Were you talking about the platform drop staggered Bairs that Kyu posted about? Is my spacing not close enough to the ledge? Or am I incorrect in my inputs in some way?

I'll be practicing tech basically all day, so correct me and I'll try to get that gfy out anytime =]

 

[Kyu Puff]

I was messing with staggered aerials more and found a stupidly situational edgeguard. If you do a staggered bair near the edge (in such manner that Nana is closer to the edge), Nana will literally "warp" almost at edge height and do the bair there. It's literally the dash back and jump - aerial input if people are wondering how to do staggered aerials. I don't have the means to produce a gfycat of this, but maybe someone else can? (@ OddishGuy please? :D) Right now, I can't really think of the uses for this other than edgeguarding a spacies illusion maybe but I wouldn't throw Nana to the edge to maybe get meteored by Falco's.

Does she float in the air at all? Sliding off the stage during jumpsquat can cancel the jump; it sounds like maybe Nana was close enough to the ledge that she slid offstage during jumpsquat and b-aired without jumping. If it looked like she "warped" or "floated" maybe she's still within Popo's range, which can cause the invisible force to slow her descent?

 

[Kyu Puff]

My best guess:

 

[Vanitas]

Kyu Puff got it! Just that I had Popo bair as well. I am so sorry if my explanation was horrible. Yeah this looks cool but potentially useless. I also didn't know that sliding off stage during jumpsquat can cancel the jump, that's interesting.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I think I found a viable alternative to dthrow dair wobble setup.

>Synced grab (nana slides in front)
>Pummel (nana still in grab whiff animation)
>Nana-uptilt (popo in pummel animation)
At this point Nana should be sliding back to popo while preforming an uptilt hitting the grabbed opponent many times (tested on Fox, falco and other viable characters, may not work on puff/short characters)
>Pummel into wobble.

The opponent can break out anytime before the uptilt hits them. It is easier to break out of this then the dthrow dair, but you can't DI out of this uptilt setup, as you can DI out of dthrow dair fairly easily. Might be useful as a mixup if they're more focused on DIing the dthrow dair instead of trying to mash out.

I like this idea a lot. I've thought of using reverse f-tilt in that situation, which is faster (2 frames less startup + more range) but way harder to execute. This is cool because you can buffer the u-tilt (just keep holding A after the pummel and tilt up on the control stick), and like you mentioned you can actually follow it up if they mash out. I'll try using it in pools tomorrow.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I tested that a long time ago against Falcon. It's inescapable past the first pummel if done well. I do recall it taking a fairly deeply spaced grab for enough utilt hits for the next pummel to be guaranteed, but I could be wrong about that.

I recall reverse ftilt not working at all.

 

[FROST :)]

Hello guys, I'm trying to experiment with shield drop desyncs. Popo will Shield drop while nana stays in the platform and like 1/10 of the times I can get nana to dash attack on the platform but I dont know if this option has any use at all. Has anyone here tried this?

 

[IC-Rambler]

Grabbing the ledge: isn't run-off reverse up-b the fastest way to grab the ledge? I know Wobbles sometimes WDs back and buffers up so when you slide off you can easily sweetspot up-b, but I think the reverse up-b is quicker in most situations, but it's just hard to do so like no one uses it. After a little practice I can do it semi-consistently, it honestly doesn't seem that hard, at least compared to the handoffs you guys are do crazy about it.

 

[OddishGuy]

Grabbing the ledge: isn't run-off reverse up-b the fastest way to grab the ledge? I know Wobbles sometimes WDs back and buffers up so when you slide off you can easily sweetspot up-b, but I think the reverse up-b is quicker in most situations, but it's just hard to do so like no one uses it. After a little practice I can do it semi-consistently, it honestly doesn't seem that hard, at least compared to the handoffs you guys are do crazy about it.

PC dropping or just WD turn around ramen noodling would be just as fast if not faster, no?

 

[Fugibean]

Hey have any of you guys ever considered the possibility of techchase with sopo (specifically on Marth)? It seems to be pretty good. I cant tell if marth can jump out of the d throw though. I get it work on my friend a lot.

 

[OddishGuy]

Hey have any of you guys ever considered the possibility of techchase with sopo (specifically on Marth)? It seems to be pretty good. I cant tell if marth can jump out of the d throw though. I get it work on my friend a lot.

Marth should be able to jump out around 10% IIRC

 

[SHIP]

Hello guys, I'm trying to experiment with shield drop desyncs. Popo will Shield drop while nana stays in the platform and like 1/10 of the times I can get nana to dash attack on the platform but I dont know if this option has any use at all. Has anyone here tried this?

Kyu Puff made a thread that has some cool shield drop desyncs in it a month or so ago. http://smashboards.com/threads/some-advanced-movement-options.410728/

 

[Fugibean]

Marth should be able to jump out around 10% IIRC

Yeah that's what I figured.

 

[Smasher89]

Can anyone make a gifycat or similar that compared ICs wavedashspeed through fd compared to peach floatspeed?

 

[Kyu Puff]

I tested that a long time ago against Falcon. It's inescapable past the first pummel if done well. I do recall it taking a fairly deeply spaced grab for enough utilt hits for the next pummel to be guaranteed, but I could be wrong about that.

I recall reverse ftilt not working at all.

Why didn't reverse f-tilt work? I've done it before, but only for those deeply spaced grabs. You can't buffer the tilt (since the input for reverse f-tilt results in a jab) but you can buffer a turnaround and press A within the first few frames.

Edit: Tested today. I had been using dash grab, but since dash grab recovers 10 frames more slowly than standing grab, CaptureDamage ends right before Nana can act. If you delay the headbutt by something like 7 frames, then reverse f-tilt becomes a stun lock, with 19 frames to mash before the headbutt connects. That should still be difficult to mash out of on reaction. Deep JC grab -> u-tilt is inescapable after immediate pummel (12 frames to mash out).

 

[Samwisely]

Who here's going to Big House? Anyone up for a meetup potentially?

 

[ArcDawn]

Yo I'm goin' to big house. This will be my first national

 

[Kyu Puff]

I'll be at Big House.

 

[Smog]

3 Ice climbers in winners bracket at paragon.

Is this the one?


Annnd I spoke too soon.

 

[OddishGuy]

I might go to big house, need to figure out $ stuff and whatnot =S



In case people aren't exhausted of the People'sChamp meme.

Did he just walk up, slowly, and... Get wobbled?!?

http://gfycat.com/SnivelingLividGrunion

Well, being back in OR means I have more people to play, people are unpredictable, silly creatures. Sometimes they 0-death me off of "Go!" and sometimes they just walk.

 

[ArcDawn]

did you guys ever release the link for the icies google doc? Can't seem to find it

 

[Kyu Puff]

I'm currently working on a detailed mechanics thread that will explain most of ICs weird behavior and desynchs.

 

[Army805]

Whats the best way to sdi fox's up air? Sdi'ing to the opposite side of whatever aerial momentum fox has seems to not work the majority of the time when i'm playing ic's, and that works with pretty much all other characters. I heard that you should sdi to the side and diagonally down, but not sure. Can anyone confirm?

 

[DerfMidWest]

I usually di behind then sdi straight up.
There might be a more consistent way though.

 

[OddishGuy]

Whats the best way to sdi fox's up air? Sdi'ing to the opposite side of whatever aerial momentum fox has seems to not work the majority of the time when i'm playing ic's, and that works with pretty much all other characters. I heard that you should sdi to the side and diagonally down, but not sure. Can anyone confirm?

DI diagonal, down and behind. Popo sticks his foot out so if you just SDI behind it gets clipped, if you SDI behind and down, the foot is below the hitbox and the rest of the body is to the side of the hitbox.

 

[Army805]

DI diagonal, down and behind. Popo sticks his foot out so if you just SDI behind it gets clipped, if you SDI behind and down, the foot is below the hitbox and the rest of the body is to the side of the hitbox.

Appreciate it. I knew there was something dumb about just SDI'ing behind lol

 

[ArcDawn]

What are some general small things you guys do to keep your nana safe?

 

[941]

Trying to avoid situations where I have to shield on reaction and the 6 frame delay causes Nana to get hit.

 

[Army805]

Had trouble with a Link today at a tournament oddly enough, what's good in the matchup? He would pull bombs so I couldn't wobble him if I got the grab, and was just camping. It was pretty close, but ultimately lost because of my matchup inexperience. Anyone know what I should/shouldn't be doing against Link?

 

[ArcDawn]

The thing is I camp pretty well but I get caught when I have to approach (like when I'm behind and they camp the platforms) and then my nana dies @ 941 I know I can shark u-airs but my opponents seem to be able to punish me for it.

 

[941]

It's kind of dependent on the stage and the match up. You can do SH auto-canceled U-airs through side platforms on every stage except Dreamland, which is relatively safe. Otherwise, I would look at the specifics of the situation, because there isn't really an option that works for all of them.

 

[OddishGuy]

Soooooo let's talk about wobbling stuff. IDK if this is common knowledge as I haven't really been actively looking for it.

The timing for wobbling is ~160 BPM to ~215 BPM(see MATH). This is for F-tilt wobbling and D-tilt wobbling. F-tilt wobbling has a slightly bigger window than D-tilt wobbling.

The benefits to F-tilt wobbling is the increased window and the increase in damage from F-tilt, lessening the time it takes to get a KO off a wobble. The advantages of D-tilt wobbling are that it can be done on edges and that the D-tilt stales instead of the F-tilt.
IDK about the rest of you, but I use F-tilt a lot more in neutral than D-tilt, so although the extra 1-2% a less staled F-tilt will end up doing is minimal, it's at least a small bit appreciated.

On the topic of stale moves, I lied. F-tilt and D-tilt wobbling actually have an even bigger window (in theory). This window increase is due to staling (of the tilts). This means that the window likely won't increase until the wobble has already been started.

That said, if you spam the crap out of F-tilt (you've used/connected with it 3 or 4 times out of your last 9 moves) you will start the wobble with the larger window. In general, F-tilt wobblers will get the increased window soon after starting the wobble, while D-tilt wobblers have to wait a bit longer to get an increased window. The low side of the window increases at the same time regardless since it's due to the pummel staling.

The factors that affect wobbling timing are IASA frames of the slowest moves, freeze frames for attacker and victim while opponent is grabbed (I'll call this hitlag, that's not quite correct but it's easy to understand), staling of moves, and rhythm.

Rhythm won't be talked about much, because we're humans and need a nice whole number BPM to tap to. theoretically though, the window for inputs could be larger if one could alter between two BPM seemlessly. Cool.

The hitlag is quite weird. Popo cannot act while Nana is suffering from hitlag, but Nana can receive inputs while Popo is suffering from hitlag.
Double cool.

MATH:
Pummel: Hits frame 13, IASA 25, 4 frames hitlag
F-tilt: Hits frame 6, IASA 28, 5 frames hitlag
D-tilt: Hits frame 8, IASA 29, 4 frames hitlag

Scenario 1 [lower bound]
Nana lag gives moves + 6.

F-tilt Wobbling | D-tilt wobbling
Pummel on frame 1 | Pummel started frame 1
Hits frame 13 | Hits frame 13
Hitlag 4 | Hitlag 4
F-tilt started 24 | D-tilt started frame 23
Hits frame 36 | Hits frame 37
Hitlag 5 | Hitlag 4
Pummel started frame 47 | Pummel started frame 45
Hits frame 59 | Hits frame 57

Notice that the biggest window between moves connecting (+ hitlag frames) is 20 frames each time. Once an opponent has been out of hitlag + unhit for 21 frames, they have begun an escape from the grab.

F-tilt wobbling requires an input every 23 frames, D-tilt wobbling requires an input every 22 frames.

F-tilt wobble inputs can be done 23 frames apart.
60(F/s) * 60(s/m) / 23(F) = 157 (BPM)
D-tilt wobble inputs can be done 22 frames apart.
60(F/s) * 60(s/m) / 19(F) = 164 (BPM)

Scenario 2 [upper bound]
Nana gives moves +6.

Frame | Action performed | Frame of hit
1 | Pummel | 13
17 | F-tilt | 29
33 | Pummel | 45
50 | F-tilt | 2

Pressing A twice every 32 frames.
60(F/s) * 60(s/m) / 16(F) = 225 BPM

Frame | Action performed | Frame of hit
1 | Pummel | 13
18 | D-tilt | 32
35 | Pummel | 47
52 | D-tilt | 6

Pressing A twice every 34 frames
60(F/s) * 60(s/m) / 17(F) = 211 BPM

Note: The speed of the tilts is the limiting factor for the upper bound. F-tilt has a lesser IASA frame, but due to the increase in hitlag the move causes, it ends up having the same upper bound as D-tilt. When both moves have staled, this upper bound should (thoeretically) increase to 240 BPM for F-tilt and 225 for D-tilt.

It's worth noting that rhythm is pretty insignificant at lower BPM, but at higher BPM, you have to be frame perfect to stay at the boundary BPM.

EDIT1: doesn't look super ugly. Have a test to do later that may alter the upper bound timing by ~10BPM

EDIT2: Looked more into hitlag stuff. I'm dumb and made some mistakes, not accounting for the grab victim to be in hitlag. Math, bounds, and tables adjusted accordingly. I still can't really test the staling affect because of 20XX issues, but theoretically (I'm assuming it behaves near identically to hitlag) the bounds and adjustments are correct.

EDIT3: I can't test this super duper well, but I think that the lower bounds are actually unaffected as I don't think the pummel's hitlag will ever alter. Sooo I adjusted that. Until I find a way to really test it I'll just say it's right. It makes sense that the lower bound wouldn't increase, otherwise slow D-tilt wobblers would be dropping wobbles out of no where. And although that does happen to me, I think it's because I'm bad rather than frame data shenanigans.

 

[OddishGuy]

BEHOLD! The grand TL;DR table of wobbling.

Notes: All higher end BPM are rounded down, all lower end BPM are rounded up. This means that if you take the very border BPM and wobble to it, it should work.
Ex: 150.3 - 203.9 BPM -> 151 - 203 BPM

For fresh moves
F-tilt Wobbling window | D-tilt Wobbling window
157-225 BPM | 164-211 BPM

For stale moves​

F-tilt Wobbling window | D-tilt Wobbling window
157-240 | 164-225

Tilt hits until F-tilt window change = 3
Tilt hits until D-tilt window change = 8
*These do not include pummel hits, or any jab hits that you may start a wobble with.

 

[Benny P]

BEHOLD! The grand TL;DR table of wobbling.

Notes: All higher end BPM are rounded down, all lower end BPM are rounded up. This means that if you take the very border BPM and wobble to it, it should work.
Ex: 150.3 - 203.9 BPM -> 151 - 203 BPM

For fresh moves
F-tilt Wobbling window | D-tilt Wobbling window
157-225 BPM | 164-211 BPM

For stale moves​

F-tilt Wobbling window | D-tilt Wobbling window
157-240 | 164-225

Tilt hits until F-tilt window change = 3
Tilt hits until D-tilt window change = 8
*These do not include pummel hits, or any jab hits that you may start a wobble with.

Oddishguy you're amazing. Just when i decided i should really try to wobble too. time to smash to metronomes