Social General Ice Climber Chat

[SHIP]

Ok so I still don't really understand shield dropping with ice climbers. I understand that you tilt your shield down and you fall through the platform then you can do a move. But when exactly is that useful for us? Am I supposed to be waiting for them to hit my shield or something? I always end up sliding pretty far away in most cases.

 

[OddishGuy]

Ok so I still don't really understand shield dropping with ice climbers. I understand that you tilt your shield down and you fall through the platform then you can do a move. But when exactly is that useful for us? Am I supposed to be waiting for them to hit my shield or something? I always end up sliding pretty far away in most cases.

Being on a platform in general sucks, so dropping down or WDing off is almost always better than putting up a shield. But if you don't have the time and need to just put up a shield, wait until you get hit and then try shield-drop Uair. You can shield drop mid-slide, so if you're sliding off platforms after hits, you're not shield-dropping soon enough or have no shield DI. If you are super near the edge of a platform, holding towards the center will give you shield DI, and usually still allow you to get the shield-drop after the hit before you slide off. The shield DI is pretty important with the shield drop anyways, because you're Upair may not connect if you slide too much but it still protects you to a degree. If you're so near the edge where you will slide off the platform after getting hit, you likely have enough time to just dash off the platform.

Sheild drop Nair can be good too if someone is hitting the back of your shield.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Being on a platform in general sucks, so dropping down or WDing off is almost always better than putting up a shield. But if you don't have the time and need to just put up a shield, wait until you get hit and then try shield-drop Uair. You can shield drop mid-slide, so if you're sliding off platforms after hits, you're not shield-dropping soon enough or have no shield DI. If you are super near the edge of a platform, holding towards the center will give you shield DI, and usually still allow you to get the shield-drop after the hit before you slide off. The shield DI is pretty important with the shield drop anyways, because you're Upair may not connect if you slide too much but it still protects you to a degree. If you're so near the edge where you will slide off the platform after getting hit, you likely have enough time to just dash off the platform.

Sheild drop Nair can be good too if someone is hitting the back of your shield.

being on a platform as ICs is fine in the right situations. I generally like it a lot against peach.
But shield dropping consistently makes it a lot more viable.
In general it's good to know even if you don't want to play on platforms too much, because a lot of times you'll get stuck up there anyway and it's an incredible tool to have.
It's also great if you are doing the thing where nana is on a platform above you and you need her to get down, but that's just a little trick I use for that specific scenario.

Shield dropping or shai dropping are also always faster and often safer than wding off a platform.
It depends on your position and the position of your opponent, but wd is laggy af. Shield drops are super fast.

I like shield drops a lot though. I think I probably use them more than most other ICs I've seen.
I know I saw wobbles playing around with them recently, but other than that I don't see many ICs use them.

But in general, platform play is an area where ICs have a lot of room to improve.
Most ICs will stay on the ground a little too much (which is still good, but it's not 2004, and we can go up there...)

Ok so I still don't really understand shield dropping with ice climbers. I understand that you tilt your shield down and you fall through the platform then you can do a move. But when exactly is that useful for us? Am I supposed to be waiting for them to hit my shield or something? I always end up sliding pretty far away in most cases.

It really depends. There are some times when it's just not safe, but a lot of the time it helps to solve problems like marth utilting underneath you or people hitting your shield (since shield dropping is faster than jumping OoS)
It's also just incredibly helpful for movement or if you're trapped up on a platform.

I recommend learning to do it consistently, even if you don't use it much, because it's a super valuable tool.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I generally dislike shield-dropping as ICs because of how awful their options out of it are. There are times and places for it nonetheless, and there isn't any good reason to not be able to do it, but I'd mostly rather WD or run off a platform to create a bit more horizontal space between the opponent and me before descending or just to land in a better place positioning-wise. ICs are kind of a sitting duck while falling straight through a platform against many of the extremely quick, long range, and disjointed options that you need to cope with.

I'm also not going to blame ICs at all for wanting to stay on the ground a lot. 2004 or not, being on platforms as ICs is blatantly bad against most of the good characters in this game, and boarding a platform with even a slightly inaccurate read is often very costly. That said, one thing I do want to experiment with more is landing on platforms with rising ice blocks instead of always wavelanding on or jumping up with an aerial.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I didn't mean to say that ICs should just being going up there for no reason, just that it's not that bad in certain mus and that we have a lot of room to grown in regards to platform play as a whole.
I don't think there are many characters in melee who can afford to be on platforms for an extended period of time.

I really like using rising ice blocks onto platforms.
Its less laggy than wavelanding for sure.
I mostly only use it for retreating Ice blocks as sopo though.

But what is you opinion on shielddrop solosquall?
The issue I have with it is that the squall is really high up, which makes it a lot more of a situational tool.
But I've been using it against floatier characters who like to hit my shield in the air the drift away (namely puff, sheik, sometimes peach)
But I'm wondering if there are any better applications than just these specific situations.

 

[OddishGuy]

but wd is laggy af. Shield drops are super fast.

WD is laggy, but you're moving away on frame 4, so in that sense it's pretty dang fast. You can't throw out a move but the point of WD off and away isn't to contest but to evade, so the lag isn't too important.

The problem with dropping down is the aerials that reach down below with disjoints, and to a lesser extent, the position for the chase with characters that can drop down and chase you quickly after their attack.

Shield dropping is amazing though (admittedly a lot worse with 2 climbers). I'd rather just be outta there most of the time.

But what is you opinion on shielddrop solosquall?

You are the craziest IC player. Gawdang man I love you for stuff like this :D

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Shield-drop solo squall sounds uniformly awful and I would never do it under any circumstances.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Shield-drop solo squall sounds uniformly awful and I would never do it under any circumstances.

I think Wobbles was messing around with it for a while. It does make you vulnerable, but it allows you to approach the area underneath the opposite platform relatively quickly and it's safe on shield. Not saying it's not bad, but I can imagine a few circumstances where it would work out in your favor.

I probably use platforms more than most other IC players... People aren't as familiar with what ICs can do from that position, so I manage to sneak in a lot of stray b-airs that I probably wouldn't get otherwise. And if you lose stage control, sometimes using the platforms is your best escape option. Especially against characters like Peach and Samus, I'm trying to shift more to a style where I fight from center stage, but then if I lose stage control or need to recover my shield, retreat to the platforms and search for a way to regain my positioning.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Yeah its usually a pretty terrible option, but I like to use it in very specific positions.
Most certainly not a go to choice though.

@ Kyu Puff i play on platforms in a pretty similar way. Im very comfortable going up there in a good number of ICs matchups (generally for the reasons you mentioned).
I remember tomber was doing some pretty interesting things with platforms in the peach mu as well, but that was awhile ago and im not sure if he's still doing that stuff.

 

[DerfMidWest]

double post because **** the police.

Hey! Dolphin people! I have a thing I would love for someone to confirm!

So I did this thing the other day. Shield stun desync sh nair->grab. I would like to know if this is a perfect wobble setup at 0% (It might work a little past that too).
I think you can accomplish the exact same thing with dair (which is probably better since it's faster, but it has less horizontal range), so that might be worth looking into as well.

I haven't replicated this very well yet because I'm kind of bad at shield stun desyncs and it's hard to set up, since it only works when people are super close because ICs slide really far when their shield is hit, but it's still a really cool thing.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I'm guessing you're doing the jump input while Popo is in shield-stun and then pressing A once to make Popo grab and Nana nair?

Counting the usual way from the A input, Popo's grab would connect on 7 and Nana would nair on 12 (6 frame delay+nair being active on 6). Nair hitting 5 frames after the grab connects is safely in the range where it's not possible for the opponent to break out of the grab before it hits. The question then would be could you get Nana doing tilts quickly enough to actually transition into a wobble. I suspect that the answer is yes, but there might be some tricky inputs.

 

[S2rulL]

I'm guessing you're doing the jump input while Popo is in shield-stun and then pressing A once to make Popo grab and Nana nair?

Counting the usual way from the A input, Popo's grab would connect on 7 and Nana would nair on 12 (6 frame delay+nair being active on 6). Nair hitting 5 frames after the grab connects is safely in the range where it's not possible for the opponent to break out of the grab before it hits. The question then would be could you get Nana doing tilts quickly enough to actually transition into a wobble. I suspect that the answer is yes, but there might be some tricky inputs.

you two and your ****ing wizardry again...

 

[Kyu Puff]

I'm guessing you're doing the jump input while Popo is in shield-stun and then pressing A once to make Popo grab and Nana nair?

Counting the usual way from the A input, Popo's grab would connect on 7 and Nana would nair on 12 (6 frame delay+nair being active on 6). Nair hitting 5 frames after the grab connects is safely in the range where it's not possible for the opponent to break out of the grab before it hits. The question then would be could you get Nana doing tilts quickly enough to actually transition into a wobble. I suspect that the answer is yes, but there might be some tricky inputs.

What's the minimum time it takes to get out of a grab?

An interesting optimization I've thought about is using the solo dash desynch I posted a while back to make every synched grab inescapable. From any standing position, you can immediately desynch into Blizzard and grab with Popo, at the cost of only 2 extra frames. If you grab them, Nana's Blizzard hitbox will hit on frame 12.

The only limitation is that if you want to grab immediately, it has to be a dash or jc grab (pivot and shield are both slower options). Not a huge drawback in my opinion, because synched standing grabs allow you to start Popo's headbutt on the first frame possible, whereas running/wd grabs would normally force you to delay.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Shield-drop solo squall sounds uniformly awful and I would never do it under any circumstances.

so despite this response, I kept playing with it and am interested in it's viability on some of the low platform heights on FoD.
Ideally, I'd probably try to be under these, but I think shield drop solo squall is a viable option in some of the situations where you would end up being up there in shield.
Some of the big differences between this and normal solo-squall OoS are that you can get squall out a few frames faster since you aren't jumping, but nana also ends up on the ground instead of in the air, which lets you do a lot of cute things like solo squall->nana dash grab really quickly on shields and things.

You can also just nanapult out of it really quickly, but that isn't super applicable, since I would usually use this when opponents aren't super far away from me, and it also takes some time for popo to be able to come in and cover nana's weakpoints, making nanapult less effective. Running high fair is ok though.

 

[R.I.P.]

So what do I do against Falco dair pressure on shield and Fox/Falco shine in general?

 

[Kyu Puff]

So what do I do against Falco dair pressure on shield and Fox/Falco shine in general?

- If he does an aerial too early, you can shieldgrab or use an escape option before the shine.

- If he does an aerial late, you should wait for the shine. Sometimes you'll be able to roll/jump after the d-air, but shine will hit you before you can escape. Getting hit by shine is pretty much the worst outcome, so don't let it happen.

- If the Falco always does one shine followed by another aerial, you can usually wavedash away after the shine. If he mixes up with double- or multi-shines, you need to be more careful, because jumping or rolling at the wrong time will get you or Nana hit. In the latter case, you can try waiting it out and see if he messes up or uses an unsafe option. After a certain point they'll usually push you far enough away that they have to wavedash or jump to reset their spacing, which gives you an opportunity to escape. Using some degree of lightshielding can accelerate this process.

- If they space poorly, you can actually just grab them. Grab outranges shine, so if their shine isn't overlapping your hurtbox, you can grab it. Sometimes you can accomplish this by shield DIing their first aerial to put you out of shine range.

- Mix up your fullshield with lightshielding and tilting to avoid getting shieldstabbed. Lightshielding induces more shield stun, but allows you to slide further away and covers more of your body, so it's a trade off. You generally won't be able to grab if you lightshield.

- Stop sitting in your shield and giving him opportunities to pressure you. If it looks like he's about to come in with an aerial, try to move out of the way or intercept him with your own hitboxes before he can hit you. If you let him hit your shield over and over, it'll get worn down quickly and make it really easy for him to poke you with shine.

 

[DerfMidWest]

- Stop sitting in your shield and giving him opportunities to pressure you. If it looks like he's about to come in with an aerial, try to move out of the way or intercept him with your own hitboxes before he can hit you. If you let him hit your shield over and over, it'll get worn down quickly and make it really easy for him to poke you with shine.

I want to highlight this point. This and using too many smashes in neutral are the biggest problems most ICs have.
Every IC loves shield grabbing, and chillin in shield is one of the most tempting things to do, but it's usually a horrible idea.
But there are still times when shielding a move is the best option, just learning when those are is difficult.

 

[S2rulL]

just had one of those moments where i've just sat down and had a nice little internal conflict and a final revelation about myself as a player and as a person as a whole;

i worry too much about what others think of me and i choose imitation over individuality

i constantly watch games from fly, wobbles, chu and dizz and think "****, i should be playing like that!" and i do and it works for a little while but then it all crumbles and i'm left just staring at what's left thinking "why didn't it work for me?"

the answer is because it isn't supposed to. i don't play like any of the aforementioned players because i'm not a replica of any of them. i am my own player with my own mindset and thought process and i need to accept that and stop overthinking it.

these little inuits are ****ing weird and they have some great hitboxes, interesting and a really bull**** infinite. that's what i love about them and that's why i play them, so why not play them like i wanna.

TL;DR stop trying to replicate others or what may be the "best theoretical option" and just do me (within reason, of course)

 

[DerfMidWest]

just had one of those moments where i've just sat down and had a nice little internal conflict and a final revelation about myself as a player and as a person as a whole;

i worry too much about what others think of me and i choose imitation over individuality

i constantly watch games from fly, wobbles, chu and dizz and think "****, i should be playing like that!" and i do and it works for a little while but then it all crumbles and i'm left just staring at what's left thinking "why didn't it work for me?"

the answer is because it isn't supposed to. i don't play like any of the aforementioned players because i'm not a replica of any of them. i am my own player with my own mindset and thought process and i need to accept that and stop overthinking it.

these little inuits are ****ing weird and they have some great hitboxes, interesting and a really bull**** infinite. that's what i love about them and that's why i play them, so why not play them like i wanna.

TL;DR stop trying to replicate others or what may be the "best theoretical option" and just do me (within reason, of course)

Innovate, don't immitate.
Take the archetype you're given from the older players, expand on what's good, and identify what's bad and come up with ways to either avoid or compensate for it.
The idea is to become better than the players who were around before you, not to become a copy of them.

 

[S2rulL]

Innovate, don't immitate.
Take the archetype you're given from the older players, expand on what's good, and identify what's bad and come up with ways to either avoid or compensate for it.
The idea is to become better than the players who were around before you, not to become a copy of them.

EXACTLY this

 

[Vanitas]

I found a way to be able to shoot ice blocks at both ground level and platform level simultaneously with 100% consistency. However, it's uses are limited to one before I have to set the desynch again and it takes a measly 60ish frames to start it up (it's not the desynch where you grab the edge after doing an aerial ice block)...would this even be useful or worth mentioning? I can't follow up with anything but I think it's good to lock the opponent on the edge and pressure them further.

 

[IC-Rambler]

I found a way to be able to shoot ice blocks at both ground level and platform level simultaneously with 100% consistency. However, it's uses are limited to one before I have to set the desynch again and it takes a measly 60ish frames to start it up (it's not the desynch where you grab the edge after doing an aerial ice block)...would this even be useful or worth mentioning? I can't follow up with anything but I think it's good to lock the opponent on the edge and pressure them further.

Tell us lol, what's with the cliffhanger?

 

[Vanitas]

Tell us lol, what's with the cliffhanger?

Haha often my messages are ignored each time I post on this thread but maybe it's all done unintentionally.

The idea is to do a Fair L-cancel desynch. For the uninformed, this desynch is when you purposely delay the timing of your L-cancel so that Nana is caught in lag while Popo can act first. There is a reasonable window to input commands however. I'm not frame savvy but I can post a video if needed. It can be any aerial really, but Fair covers the most distance in front of the ICs I believe.

That said, you perform an L cancel desynch and then short hop with Popo and ice block. By the time you finished the shorthop, Nana should be able to act. So when you begin your ice block in the air as Popo, your input of the B button will also affect the grounded Nana.
Visually, this should look like Popo shooting an ice block in the air while Nana shoots one on the ground.
The amount of space this can control is absolutely phenomenal. I can see potential uses when pressuring opponents on the edge. Even say, they do an invincible ledge dash and avoid the grounded ice block, some characters can't shorthop without their head poking through the platforms so Popo's ice block will halt some movement there.
The only problem is that once you shoot your double ice blocks, you're sync'd again and kinda just resets the edgeguarding situation. If people are interested, I'm going to experiment this on people in my coming weekly and I can report back some results.

This is in part, thanks to DerfMidWest for bringing the L-cancel desynch up to light.

EDIT: Actually, there is a small awkward window for you to press the B button (or a simple desynch) after your double ice block when Popo lands (it's easy to do it if you press B the instant he lands) and you can start off desync'd ice blocks (or blizzards too!) afterwards. Will test this out further.

 

[OddishGuy]

Diiiiid someone say FRAMES?!?!?!? Let's go! :D

The idea is to do a Fair L-cancel desynch. For the uninformed, this desynch is when you purposely delay the timing of your L-cancel so that Nana is caught in lag while Popo can act first. There is a reasonable window to input commands however. I'm not frame savvy but I can post a video if needed. It can be any aerial really, but Fair covers the most distance in front of the ICs I believe.

Fair and Bair are easiest here. SH Fair and Bair give you a two frame window if you don't FF. If you FF the aerial it can lessen to a one frame window (AKA, frame perfect). If you use other aerials (such as Nair and Dair) it is usually a 1 frame window, and can become impossible depending on when you FF. Use SH non FF Fair or risk inconsistency IMO =[

That said, you perform an L cancel desynch and then short hop with Popo and ice block. By the time you finished the shorthop, Nana should be able to act. So when you begin your ice block in the air as Popo, your input of the B button will also affect the grounded Nana.
Visually, this should look like Popo shooting an ice block in the air while Nana shoots one on the ground.

You can actually start your aerial iceblock before Nana is ready, so you need to use a minor delay (unless you want a solo popo aerial iceblock, which is very beneficial in its own right).

The only problem is that once you shoot your double ice blocks, you're sync'd again and kinda just resets the edgeguarding situation.

This is in part, thanks to DerfMidWest for bringing the L-cancel desynch up to light.

EDIT: Actually, there is a small awkward window for you to press the B button (or a simple desynch) after your double ice block when Popo lands (it's easy to do it if you press B the instant he lands) and you can start off desync'd ice blocks (or blizzards too!) afterwards. Will test this out further.

This window is dependent upon a few different things.
Let's say you jump frame perfectly as Popo and initiate the double iceblock as early as possible.

7 Frames. You have 7 frames to do something as Popo after landing before Nana is influenced. This is a really nice window, but you have to know the special landing and iceblock animation decently well to tell where it is.

However, if anyone feels this is too hard, you can delay your double iceblock. Popo will go into special landing regardless, but the larger the delay before the iceblock, the longer Nana will be in animation after you land, making that window up to 3 frames larger it seems.

However, if your jump out of the L-cancel desync is late, you will decrease your window. This window can be decreased by 7 frames.

Also if you make Popo do his aerial iceblock quickly, he won't get a rise out of the iceblock, letting popo land more quickly and increasing the window between him and Nana. This increases your window by 10 frames.

The largest window that can be attained is 42 frames (aerial iceblock with Popo before Nana is out of lag, then iceblock with Nana super late). I would say it's unideal for Popo to immediate iceblock, and delaying Nana's iceblock seems bad as well, but there's a lot of small options that add up to this 42 frame window.

I don't think anyone has anything to worry about here. The main thins is jumping ASAP after the L-cancel desync, then just wait and iceblock. You will have a relatively large desync window after landing to attack with Popo first.

EDIT: I made a thing http://gfycat.com/BelatedSelfassuredArmednylonshrimp

EDIT: and another thing to show the desync after landing http://gfycat.com/VagueDefensiveAvocet

 

[SHIP]

Diiiiid someone say FRAMES?!?!?!? Let's go! :D



Fair and Bair are easiest here. SH Fair and Bair give you a two frame window if you don't FF. If you FF the aerial it can lessen to a one frame window (AKA, frame perfect). If you use other aerials (such as Nair and Dair) it is usually a 1 frame window, and can become impossible depending on when you FF. Use SH non FF Fair or risk inconsistency IMO =[



You can actually start your aerial iceblock before Nana is ready, so you need to use a minor delay (unless you want a solo popo aerial iceblock, which is very beneficial in its own right).



This window is dependent upon a few different things.
Let's say you jump frame perfectly as Popo and initiate the double iceblock as early as possible.

7 Frames. You have 7 frames to do something as Popo after landing before Nana is influenced. This is a really nice window, but you have to know the special landing and iceblock animation decently well to tell where it is.

However, if anyone feels this is too hard, you can delay your double iceblock. Popo will go into special landing regardless, but the larger the delay before the iceblock, the longer Nana will be in animation after you land, making that window up to 3 frames larger it seems.

However, if your jump out of the L-cancel desync is late, you will decrease your window. This window can be decreased by 7 frames.

Also if you make Popo do his aerial iceblock quickly, he won't get a rise out of the iceblock, letting popo land more quickly and increasing the window between him and Nana. This increases your window by 10 frames.

The largest window that can be attained is 42 frames (aerial iceblock with Popo before Nana is out of lag, then iceblock with Nana super late). I would say it's unideal for Popo to immediate iceblock, and delaying Nana's iceblock seems bad as well, but there's a lot of small options that add up to this 42 frame window.

I don't think anyone has anything to worry about here. The main thins is jumping ASAP after the L-cancel desync, then just wait and iceblock. You will have a relatively large desync window after landing to attack with Popo first.

EDIT: I made a thing http://gfycat.com/BelatedSelfassuredArmednylonshrimp

EDIT: and another thing to show the desync after landing http://gfycat.com/VagueDefensiveAvocet

This whole desync looks very cool and could have lots of interesting applications. I quite like using fair in neutral so I could see myself using this often if it proves to be effective. Definitely going to be looking into some non ice block variations when I get around to doing some experimentation.

 

[IC-Rambler]

So... how important is it exactly for me to learn to JC my grabs?

Also, you guys know about the 2 frame window at the end of the squall hammer where you can desync Nana, right? I think it's a pretty nifty desync, but I've never seen it used.

 

[Smasher89]

Is it just 2 frames?, i usually press B before squalldesynch so they pop up and i can get it quite consistently. after that.

 

[Vanitas]

Diiiiid someone say FRAMES?!?!?!? Let's go! :D



Fair and Bair are easiest here. SH Fair and Bair give you a two frame window if you don't FF. If you FF the aerial it can lessen to a one frame window (AKA, frame perfect). If you use other aerials (such as Nair and Dair) it is usually a 1 frame window, and can become impossible depending on when you FF. Use SH non FF Fair or risk inconsistency IMO =[



You can actually start your aerial iceblock before Nana is ready, so you need to use a minor delay (unless you want a solo popo aerial iceblock, which is very beneficial in its own right).



This window is dependent upon a few different things.
Let's say you jump frame perfectly as Popo and initiate the double iceblock as early as possible.

7 Frames. You have 7 frames to do something as Popo after landing before Nana is influenced. This is a really nice window, but you have to know the special landing and iceblock animation decently well to tell where it is.

However, if anyone feels this is too hard, you can delay your double iceblock. Popo will go into special landing regardless, but the larger the delay before the iceblock, the longer Nana will be in animation after you land, making that window up to 3 frames larger it seems.

However, if your jump out of the L-cancel desync is late, you will decrease your window. This window can be decreased by 7 frames.

Also if you make Popo do his aerial iceblock quickly, he won't get a rise out of the iceblock, letting popo land more quickly and increasing the window between him and Nana. This increases your window by 10 frames.

The largest window that can be attained is 42 frames (aerial iceblock with Popo before Nana is out of lag, then iceblock with Nana super late). I would say it's unideal for Popo to immediate iceblock, and delaying Nana's iceblock seems bad as well, but there's a lot of small options that add up to this 42 frame window.

I don't think anyone has anything to worry about here. The main thins is jumping ASAP after the L-cancel desync, then just wait and iceblock. You will have a relatively large desync window after landing to attack with Popo first.

EDIT: I made a thing http://gfycat.com/BelatedSelfassuredArmednylonshrimp

EDIT: and another thing to show the desync after landing http://gfycat.com/VagueDefensiveAvocet

You're the man Oddish guy, I was going to upload a demonstration myself, but you beat me to it. Thanks a lot for that! I shared it with a couple people and gave you credit if you don't mind :D So it's definitely replicable by most IC mains, which is good. I've actually been doing Fair Fastfalled...it's pretty easy based on visual cues imo. Although relying on visual cues can be bad, I will slowly get more accustomed to the timing so I can do this on demand when it comes to tournament play after grinding more.

So... how important is it exactly for me to learn to JC my grabs?

Also, you guys know about the 2 frame window at the end of the squall hammer where you can desync Nana, right? I think it's a pretty nifty desync, but I've never seen it used.

I've actually been doing this quite a bit. I first learned it from Fly Amanita, he does it. Usually I input a blizzard though because some people want to punish it but they never expect the blizzard.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Does anyone know why the l-cancel desynch works, in terms of game mechanics? It seems to vary a lot depending on the move animation and whether or not there's hitlag.

 

[DerfMidWest]

desync off of squall is very situational, andoften gimmicky. But its never bad to know when desyncs are possible.
But usually I don't like it very much.

Does anyone know why the l-cancel desynch works, in terms of game mechanics? It seems to vary a lot depending on the move animation and whether or not there's hitlag.

I'm pretty sure is just has to do with one climber landing and being able to recieve inputs before the other.
With hitlag, you get stuck in the position you are in the air when you hit something for a few frames, and since the two moves connect 6 frames apart, they hit in different positions which can effect when one climber hits the ground.

But there could be some other stuff going on too... I wish I knew a bit more about hitlag mechanics, but thats the best explanation I've got.

 

[tauKhan]

IC's are so strange haha. Can anyone explain this scenario: I synced full jump and land. Then if I press x on the last frame of popo's landing lag, only nana jumps. But if I press x right when popo becomes actionable, only popo jumps. It makes no sense to me.

 

[Vanitas]

In continuation of the discussion on L-cancel desynch, I found something interesting as well. Say you perform a Fair L-cancel desynch, if you do a running forward shorthop uair on the condition you press up on the C-stick, Nana will slide with you and perform a sliding usmash. This is in an incredible amount of vertical space covered! The point is that you are able to incorporate Popo aerials and Nana smashes in one moment.

The same can be said for short hop retreating Fair with the C-stick which will allow Popo to do a fair while Nana does an Fsmash.
What's more is that after your fair, you can do a running back Bair which Nana can cover your back with a forward smash*
*This seems super useful for Foxes that maybe will try to jump above you with a bair or something or try to mix up their jabs and shine. The drawback is that you probably need a lot of space to do this, so potentially this could be used when you are cornering a Fox near the edge.

Dair doesn't work as well since the space Dair and Downsmash cover are so tiny.

Oddishguy or anyone, would you be able to put this in gfycat form with the hitboxes being shown? That'd be pretty cool.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I'm pretty sure is just has to do with one climber landing and being able to recieve inputs before the other.
With hitlag, you get stuck in the position you are in the air when you hit something for a few frames, and since the two moves connect 6 frames apart, they hit in different positions which can effect when one climber hits the ground.

But there could be some other stuff going on too... I wish I knew a bit more about hitlag mechanics, but thats the best explanation I've got.

But there doesn't seem to be anything special about landing from an aerial that would allow one Climber to receive inputs before the other. If you L-cancel 1 frame before Popo hits the ground, he should L-cancel, and then 6 frames later, Nana should L-cancel (also 1 frame before hitting the ground).

What I've observed is that sometimes, Nana lands on the wrong frame. If you perform a b-air so that the hitbox comes out 1-2 frames before landing, sometimes Nana will simply auto-cancel (with no hitbox) after Popo enters landing lag. It seems like Popo somehow drags her to the ground faster, either as a result of falling speed acceleration (and his "leash" pulling her downward faster), or his body/hurtbox contorting with the aerial animation, but those are such minor effects that it seems unlikely they'd be able to produce a 1-2 frame offset before Nana hits the ground, especially from a shorthop. I wonder if there's something special about Popo landing (could also be related to the empty landing desynch where Popo sometimes has a small window during which he can act first).

 

[DerfMidWest]

That's a point, but to do the normal lcancel desync, I lcancel super early and then only popo recieves it.
Part of this probably does come from popo's gravitational pull on nana (which is a weird mechanic that does a lot of things).

The empty landing desync is one that makes much less sense to me.
I would love to understand the mechanics of why that one works.

 

[OddishGuy]

So just a quick interjection on squall. You should have 6 frames to desync from a squall, but only 2 from landing after a squall. I'm pretty sure most everyone know this, but I thought it would be worth mentioning since I've been confused before XD

What I've observed is that sometimes, Nana lands on the wrong frame. If you perform a b-air so that the hitbox comes out 1-2 frames before landing, sometimes Nana will simply auto-cancel (with no hitbox) after Popo enters landing lag. It seems like Popo somehow drags her to the ground faster, either as a result of falling speed acceleration (and his "leash" pulling her downward faster), or his body/hurtbox contorting with the aerial animation, but those are such minor effects that it seems unlikely they'd be able to produce a 1-2 frame offset before Nana hits the ground, especially from a shorthop. I wonder if there's something special about Popo landing (could also be related to the empty landing desynch where Popo sometimes has a small window during which he can act first).

This may be a working theory for some things, but it doesn't work for the L-cancel desync. Nana is in the air just as long as Popo, and hits the ground the exact number of frames after the aerial is initiated as Popo does. She does not get dragged down.

In continuation of the discussion on L-cancel desynch, I found something interesting as well. Say you perform a Fair L-cancel desynch, if you do a running forward shorthop uair on the condition you press up on the C-stick, Nana will slide with you and perform a sliding usmash. This is in an incredible amount of vertical space covered! The point is that you are able to incorporate Popo aerials and Nana smashes in one moment.

The same can be said for short hop retreating Fair with the C-stick which will allow Popo to do a fair while Nana does an Fsmash.
What's more is that after your fair, you can do a running back Bair which Nana can cover your back with a forward smash*
*This seems super useful for Foxes that maybe will try to jump above you with a bair or something or try to mix up their jabs and shine. The drawback is that you probably need a lot of space to do this, so potentially this could be used when you are cornering a Fox near the edge.

Dair doesn't work as well since the space Dair and Downsmash cover are so tiny.

Oddishguy or anyone, would you be able to put this in gfycat form with the hitboxes being shown? That'd be pretty cool.

Haha, I did the Fair/F-smash combo a bunch when I was repeatedly practicing the Fair desync XD

I can get some gifs for yah later today

EDIT: Gifs for all :D
Forward Smash/Fair

Up air /dragged Upsmash

And what would a desync be without a simple nana Blizzard. Basically an altered slide desync.

EDIT:
Just in case the gifs don't load on here, I'll link them.
F-smash: http://gfycat.com/VapidVillainousIcefish
U-smash: http://gfycat.com/SpicyGrandioseElectriceel
Blizzard: http://gfycat.com/PlushFarflungArcticwolf

EDIT2: there was a typo with the Upsmash gif, fixed. It's a shame because the URL was a cool name.

 

[Binx]

thats pretty interesting can you do a fade back fair ftilt blizzard or something like that? im basically wondering if there is a way to inch forward while covering most options using this.

 

[Kyu Puff]

This may be a working theory for some things, but it doesn't work for the L-cancel desync. Nana is in the air just as long as Popo, and hits the ground the exact number of frames after the aerial is initiated as Popo does. She does not get dragged down.

How do you explain Nana sometimes landing before her f-air/b-air hitbox comes out, while Popo is in landing lag from his aerial?

 

[Kyu Puff]

In continuation of the discussion on L-cancel desynch, I found something interesting as well. Say you perform a Fair L-cancel desynch, if you do a running forward shorthop uair on the condition you press up on the C-stick, Nana will slide with you and perform a sliding usmash. This is in an incredible amount of vertical space covered! The point is that you are able to incorporate Popo aerials and Nana smashes in one moment.

You can also "mix" this into any other desynch string, if you jump with Popo just before Nana comes out of lag. You can do this ad infinitum by taking advantage of the extra lag from Nana's smash attack. It's a pretty neat trick.

I believe that is what happened here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK508Se1Bts#t=1m23s

 

[OddishGuy]

How do you explain Nana sometimes landing before her f-air/b-air hitbox comes out, while Popo is in landing lag from his aerial?

I can't claim I understand it, but I do know the pull theory doesn't work for this desync.

Landing with ICs is generally something that I think no one understands ATM; weird stuff happens.

Why do ice block and landing desync not work if you FF on certain frames? Why does the landing and iceblock desync work in the first place? Why does the L-cancel desync have a 2 frame window with Fair and Bair, but a 1 frame window with the other aerials? Why does this window lessen depending on FF timing, even becoming impossible to L-cancel desync with certain FF aerials. Why does perfect waveland desync work? (these are legit questions if you have answers =S)

Nothing really makes sense with IC's and landing on the ground and I have no way to provide answers with the tools at my disposal, which is kind of a sad time. I do suspect Nana has unique collision boxes though, but I have no idea how they differ from Popo. Perhaps it's due to the 3rd dimension altering collisions, who really knows.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I can't claim I understand it, but I do know the pull theory doesn't work for this desync.

Landing with ICs is generally something that I think no one understands ATM; weird stuff happens.

Why do ice block and landing desync not work if you FF on certain frames? Why does the landing and iceblock desync work in the first place? Why does the L-cancel desync have a 2 frame window with Fair and Bair, but a 1 frame window with the other aerials? Why does this window lessen depending on FF timing, even becoming impossible to L-cancel desync with certain FF aerials. Why does perfect waveland desync work? (these are legit questions if you have answers =S)

Nothing really makes sense with IC's and landing on the ground and I have no way to provide answers with the tools at my disposal, which is kind of a sad time. I do suspect Nana has unique collision boxes though, but I have no idea how they differ from Popo. Perhaps it's due to the 3rd dimension altering collisions, who really knows.

I believe that perfect waveland causes you to desynch because Popo moves out of Nana's range of control before she would receive the command to airdodge.

For the others, I have no idea. There are two things I can imagine happening:

1. Popo's gravitational pull somehow influences Nana to land a frame earlier or later than she would have normally. Perhaps the strength of his "pull" is stronger on the ground than in the air, so when he lands, Nana begins to fall faster. Or perhaps it has something to do with the orientation of his hurtbox changing when he hits the ground.

2. The event of Popo landing changes some characteristic of Nana, such as the orientation of her collision box, or how the game reads her inputs.

I don't really have the tools to test this out either; however, I did notice that for the "lag/auto-cancel" desynch (where Popo lands in his aerial animation, but Nana lands normally), Nana seems to land a frame earlier than she's supposed to. I suspect the same thing happens when you successfully L-cancel desynch--if Nana hits the ground one frame earlier than normal, and you input L-cancel on the last possible frame, then she'll land before receiving the input, and Popo will act first. Alternatively, if you input the L-cancel a frame too early (so that Popo doesn't L-cancel), Nana will land on the last L-cancel frame, allowing her to act first.

Nana landing a frame early would also explain why the Ice Block desynch works (she lands before receiving the input), but I'm not sure about the "empty landing desynch" (where she fails to jump/wd/run immediately after landing). Another interesting test would be to see if both ICs jump the same height, or if Nana jumps slightly higher or lower due to Popo's gravitational pull.