Nintendude
Smash Hero
I'd actually prefer 4:30pm PST if that's okay with you guys.
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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
That's totally fine with me.
Vanitas
Smash Ace
Hey guys, I was just wondering what is the most you can get out of a grab VS Captain Falcon that is not too situational (ex. Hand off or if Wobbling was banned)
I just realized that with most Captain Falcons knowing/learning how to DI the reverse dair chaingrab, another feasible option to do is the downthrow dsmash chaingrab (the one similar to sheiks). But I was wondering if there was a better option instead?
I just realized that with most Captain Falcons knowing/learning how to DI the reverse dair chaingrab, another feasible option to do is the downthrow dsmash chaingrab (the one similar to sheiks). But I was wondering if there was a better option instead?
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
The simplest thing is just to opt for a simple combo out of a grab, e.g. dthrow -> usmash -> stuff. At low percentages, you can have Nana nair instead of dair as an interesting alternative that has a little more hitstun. Random hand-offs are pretty solid, too. Nana's fthrow and dthrow take long enough on Falcon for you to be able to react and grab/etc Falcon with Popo afterwards, bthrow can be a combo or tech-chase starter, and uthrow can also be a reasonable combo starter, except that you separate the ICs quite a bit in the process; how big of a deal that is varies a lot depending on the circumstances, but you generally don't want to go too crazy if you think Falcon can get back to a neutral (or even slightly less than neutral) position before you regain control of Nana. If you think the Falcon is going to try to SDI upwards in anticipation of a dair, you can do stuff like the fsmash -> grab CG. There are lots of options.
Binx
Smash Master
What Ive seen wobbles to is just mix up the dthrow dair and the reverse with a few ftilts in the middle and occasionally doing a mid stage handoff.
Your other option is to backthrow or dthrow and techchase.
Your other option is to backthrow or dthrow and techchase.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Alright, so in summary:
Time: Today 4:30pm PST
Interested individuals: me, DrkRoxas, Nintendude, Binx, CosmoNaughtilus. I'm not sure if Cosmo or DrkRoxas would actually like to be in the call (which they are very welcome to be) or simply be in the chat; if the former, I'd need Cosmo's Skype. I also need Nintendude's Skype, if he has one. Alternatively, they could just add me (my Skype just being the same as my username here).
Topics: same things listed in my last post, potentially plus any other more spontaneous topics that anybody would like to bring up.
Time: Today 4:30pm PST
Interested individuals: me, DrkRoxas, Nintendude, Binx, CosmoNaughtilus. I'm not sure if Cosmo or DrkRoxas would actually like to be in the call (which they are very welcome to be) or simply be in the chat; if the former, I'd need Cosmo's Skype. I also need Nintendude's Skype, if he has one. Alternatively, they could just add me (my Skype just being the same as my username here).
Topics: same things listed in my last post, potentially plus any other more spontaneous topics that anybody would like to bring up.
DrkRoxas
Smash Apprentice
I'd be glad to be in the call, if I'm allowed, if not I understand. This is a great opportunity and any way that I'm able to be a part of it is great, I'll be online at that time.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
We're starting now.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
The podcast is starting now. It is at http://www.twitch.tv/FlyAgaric .
Edit: It's over now, but here's the archive: http://www.twitch.tv/flyagaric/c/2408093 . Actual discussion starts around 5 minutes in.
Edit: It's over now, but here's the archive: http://www.twitch.tv/flyagaric/c/2408093 . Actual discussion starts around 5 minutes in.
Binx
Smash Master
im sad i missed it, thought we were doing it on thursday lol.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
There will be future ones, so it's all good.
Binx
Smash Master
When is next one planned for you want to do them weekly or bi-monthly or...?
Nintendude
Smash Hero
Maybe every month or so. Personally I think it'd be good to do them before and after big tournaments.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I'm currently thinking of having one whenever somebody has some big topic to discuss (probably the happenings of a recent tourney, but not necessarily), and then we can also throw in whatever additional topics we'd like to go over.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
RIP melee
haha jk
who's going to evo? who feels prepared for the tournament? i finally have a more solid sheik with which to CP ganon and peach
haha jk
who's going to evo? who feels prepared for the tournament? i finally have a more solid sheik with which to CP ganon and peach
Nintendude
Smash Hero
So I had a lot of Samus practice last night. Fly, I had a lot of success using your general strategy of facing forwards and trying to hover just outside of f-tilt range shooting stuff while finding windows for wavejab dsmash. The biggest issue I'm having though is dealing with missiles from that range. I can light shield them but I often get forced to retreat to avoid eating additional missiles or even a Dair. Thoughts?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
wish i could help! i CP her now haha
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Unless you're by the edge, retreating a bit isn't really that bad against Samus. Like, if you see a missile start-up, you could just wd back and shield it from a greater distance. You could also wd back and jump and shoot ice blocks at the missile. As for dair, you can short wd back (or just wd back -> walk forward to negate the wd momentum, which I do a lot) and fsmash her as she lands.
Binx
Smash Master
So I've decided that I've been improving very slowly and what I normally do when I practice is obviously not working. So I remember this line in a book I read about improvement and learning by josh waitzkin where he said anyone who could avoid repeating a mistake twice would skyrocket to the top of their field.
I then concentrated only on the moments I got hit, otherwise I completely left my play up to reflex, when I got hit I noticed when and if I saw any patterns I tried to change them.
Things I corrected yesterday at least temporarily vs one of my friends falco: I stopped getting baited into using my get up attack on platforms, I quit shield grabbing when it wont work, I quit trying to edgeguard with attacks that I know wont work, I quit using ice blocks at bad distances, I stopped letting him kill Nana for free.
I feel like I've really stepped my game up a lot, I still make some of these mistakes but the realization of how bad I am vs people who dont just run into things kinda hurt, once I started playing with the idea of just not putting myself in bad spots and trying not to repeat mistakes I think it really made me a better player. The results were almost immediate too, I went from getting 2 stocked most games to winning half by the end of the day. Something I probably need to change but am having a rough time on, I keep using dash attacks in spots where a grab would probably be better, just because he moved closer or spaced differently than what I expected, I need to work on just doing one or the other on reaction and just trust myself to make the right call instead of planning it ahead of time because too much can change at a moments notice.
Also short hop uair at low percents into grabs is too good.
I then concentrated only on the moments I got hit, otherwise I completely left my play up to reflex, when I got hit I noticed when and if I saw any patterns I tried to change them.
Things I corrected yesterday at least temporarily vs one of my friends falco: I stopped getting baited into using my get up attack on platforms, I quit shield grabbing when it wont work, I quit trying to edgeguard with attacks that I know wont work, I quit using ice blocks at bad distances, I stopped letting him kill Nana for free.
I feel like I've really stepped my game up a lot, I still make some of these mistakes but the realization of how bad I am vs people who dont just run into things kinda hurt, once I started playing with the idea of just not putting myself in bad spots and trying not to repeat mistakes I think it really made me a better player. The results were almost immediate too, I went from getting 2 stocked most games to winning half by the end of the day. Something I probably need to change but am having a rough time on, I keep using dash attacks in spots where a grab would probably be better, just because he moved closer or spaced differently than what I expected, I need to work on just doing one or the other on reaction and just trust myself to make the right call instead of planning it ahead of time because too much can change at a moments notice.
Also short hop uair at low percents into grabs is too good.
I've read that book too. It's a good read I would say. I like how most of what he says can be used in competitive smash.
I started playing melee again a few days ago, practicing for Evo and such. Besides getting my feel of chain grabs and movement back, I've been trying to implement some new stuff into my game. I've realized that against higher level players, or just players with ICs experience, blizzard and u-tilt become less useful as people start to DI out before I can follow up with something like a grab. Especially u-tilt becomes less useful, as you might even get punished if they mash out fast enough, which is why I'm trying to do more u-smash and sh-uair where I would normally use u-tilt. As for blizzard: My favorite way to set up this move has always been with the "initial-dash-desync"* as you retreat while setting up rather then moving closer to the other player as you would with the normal dash-dance-desync. Anyway, I've started to to use the same trick to make Nana use Ice shot instead of blizzard while I dash dance/move around with Popo. I think it's easier to get grabs out of ice shot hits because you can't SDI out once you're hit. The timing for the desync is a little tricky, but I'm able to do it pretty much consistently by now. I'm going to test this against other players tomorrow.
*You dash twice, which causes Nana to freeze in a glide animation because she can't keep up/dash dance. This animation can be cancelled by pressing down on the control stick, which is why you can make Nana do a blizzard by pressing down-b. If timed correctly, Popo will still be in his initial-dash animation when you press down-b, and because you can't cancel an initial-dash by pressing down, Popo will not be affected by the input.
TL;DR: Works the same way as dash-dance-desync. However, I think this variation is better in some situation because you move away from your opponent while you begin the blizzard. It's like a faster back-roll-desync.
If you have no idea what I'm talking about, you should watch me play the following days. I'm going to stream some Evo practice with King Funk. I'll give a link once we playing.
Anyway, I would like to talk about crouch canceling. I've realized that this is something I'm not utilizing enough. So, to get things started, when do you go for a CC in general? Every time you throw out a move a low procent in case you miss and get punished? Do you bait people to attack you while you're CC'ing? In which match ups do you think it's important?
I started playing melee again a few days ago, practicing for Evo and such. Besides getting my feel of chain grabs and movement back, I've been trying to implement some new stuff into my game. I've realized that against higher level players, or just players with ICs experience, blizzard and u-tilt become less useful as people start to DI out before I can follow up with something like a grab. Especially u-tilt becomes less useful, as you might even get punished if they mash out fast enough, which is why I'm trying to do more u-smash and sh-uair where I would normally use u-tilt. As for blizzard: My favorite way to set up this move has always been with the "initial-dash-desync"* as you retreat while setting up rather then moving closer to the other player as you would with the normal dash-dance-desync. Anyway, I've started to to use the same trick to make Nana use Ice shot instead of blizzard while I dash dance/move around with Popo. I think it's easier to get grabs out of ice shot hits because you can't SDI out once you're hit. The timing for the desync is a little tricky, but I'm able to do it pretty much consistently by now. I'm going to test this against other players tomorrow.
*You dash twice, which causes Nana to freeze in a glide animation because she can't keep up/dash dance. This animation can be cancelled by pressing down on the control stick, which is why you can make Nana do a blizzard by pressing down-b. If timed correctly, Popo will still be in his initial-dash animation when you press down-b, and because you can't cancel an initial-dash by pressing down, Popo will not be affected by the input.
TL;DR: Works the same way as dash-dance-desync. However, I think this variation is better in some situation because you move away from your opponent while you begin the blizzard. It's like a faster back-roll-desync.
If you have no idea what I'm talking about, you should watch me play the following days. I'm going to stream some Evo practice with King Funk. I'll give a link once we playing.
Anyway, I would like to talk about crouch canceling. I've realized that this is something I'm not utilizing enough. So, to get things started, when do you go for a CC in general? Every time you throw out a move a low procent in case you miss and get punished? Do you bait people to attack you while you're CC'ing? In which match ups do you think it's important?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
yeah i usually bait to CC. moves like sheik's ftilt or weak aerials that i know are coming, other than that i don't use it much
ever since getting into marvel my concentration in reading my opponent has gone way up. applying it to melee is proving to be super challenging but my game is improving
there's a lot of little specific things i'm learning but the main thing is this: i want to stay in control of the situation. in marvel players need to take so much caution to 'avoid the randomness' of the game. i feel like in some ic's matchups there can be a lot of randomness unless you know exactly what you're doing.
right now i'm trying to figure out falco and falcon. i figured out some new stuff in the falco matchup, but i still find falcon very difficult.
what are some neutral game strategies that you guys use against falcon?
ever since getting into marvel my concentration in reading my opponent has gone way up. applying it to melee is proving to be super challenging but my game is improving
there's a lot of little specific things i'm learning but the main thing is this: i want to stay in control of the situation. in marvel players need to take so much caution to 'avoid the randomness' of the game. i feel like in some ic's matchups there can be a lot of randomness unless you know exactly what you're doing.
right now i'm trying to figure out falco and falcon. i figured out some new stuff in the falco matchup, but i still find falcon very difficult.
what are some neutral game strategies that you guys use against falcon?
Binx
Smash Master
So what I like to do in neutral position is get kneed 4 times per stock for a total of 16 times in a match and get 4 stocked.
Seriously though I feel like its all about the rhythm and you just kind of have to get into a certain sync with falcon where he cant do anything without getting hit. I find I have to get close and take a guess with the first move and if I can keep up pressure i can eventually get the stock, then you have to find a way to survive for 2 seconds and repeat. I find nairs really good in this match up, also utilt upsmash and short hop uair can all catch different moves.
I would like to see what someone at a higher level than myself would think about it though, the falcons I play with still make mistakes.
Seriously though I feel like its all about the rhythm and you just kind of have to get into a certain sync with falcon where he cant do anything without getting hit. I find I have to get close and take a guess with the first move and if I can keep up pressure i can eventually get the stock, then you have to find a way to survive for 2 seconds and repeat. I find nairs really good in this match up, also utilt upsmash and short hop uair can all catch different moves.
I would like to see what someone at a higher level than myself would think about it though, the falcons I play with still make mistakes.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
The keu to the Falcon matchup is being aware of how far he can reach with his approaches and then reacting to them with wavedashes and dash dances so he whiffs and gets punished. If you recognize that you mispositioned yourself, shield and then wait for an opening to wavedash away. It's usually not worth directly trying to punish Falcon oos unless you see something obvious. Projectiles are good in moderation. I also like Bair a lot in this matchup.
Binx
Smash Master
Hey guys what do you guys like to do vs Falco Fox and Falcon if they seperate you and Nana, im liking jumping into them with solo blizzard more and more as time goes on.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
nintendude that seems to be a good core strategy but i feel like i get pushed into the corner so much. especially if the falcon is good at spacing
how might you prevent that
how might you prevent that
Binx
Smash Master
If you are being pressured to the edge all the time then sometimes you need to predict that they wont attack and are just spacing and then get in and take some space, you dont necessarily have to be aggressive, but just running forward a bit and shielding while they dash away is enough usually.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
hm you're probably right
but i also mean that totally aggressive falcons can still be good at spacing. a player like s2j will just go in hard and try not to leave holes. mango as well.
hax and scar are the types to move around a lot before they attack so i should be free to move too, but they are difficult to fight in a different way.
for me these are the 4 falcons to fear at EVO.
but i also mean that totally aggressive falcons can still be good at spacing. a player like s2j will just go in hard and try not to leave holes. mango as well.
hax and scar are the types to move around a lot before they attack so i should be free to move too, but they are difficult to fight in a different way.
for me these are the 4 falcons to fear at EVO.
A-1
Smash Rookie
Binx
Smash Master
You need to work on your fundamentals. First of all you wavedash towards your opponents too often, good players will just attack in place and you will run into it, it happend a few times during the matches too. Secondly, you forward and downsmash all the time, good players will dodge it and punish you during the lag. Also your wavedashes are kinda sloppy, you should prolly work on being smoother. Another thing that would help is to incorporate more aerials into your game, Try wavelands off platforms into down airs, and auto canceled uair and bair are really useful.
A-1
Smash Rookie
thanks for the tips, ive been working a lot on my handoffs, CG's, and wobble lately, it felt like i movement was suffering thanks for pointing that out. i should set up a training chart
what do you recommend i do against falco's? i know ice blocks trade with lasers but it didnt feel like he was throwing ,uch of them at me thats why i rushed in a lot
what do you recommend i do against falco's? i know ice blocks trade with lasers but it didnt feel like he was throwing ,uch of them at me thats why i rushed in a lot
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Just because Falco isn't shooting lasers or approaching you doesn't mean you need to approach him. It's fine to just sit back and wait. Even if you're not accomplishing anything directly by doing that, approaching less often makes it harder for the opponent to recognize when you do go in.
Binx
Smash Master
Ya fly basically called it, just mix up your play more, also I wouldnt say ice blocks are particularly useful vs lasers, a lot of the time if they do lasers too close you can just wavedash smash and one climber will take the hit while the other hits falco pretty hard, at further ranges falco has plenty of time to shield, so while you are forcing him to act hes still gonna just chip you unless he messes up. Although this isnt really significant for either of you, even getting hit by 10 lasers is only 30 damage or so.
Basically the goal with falco is to get inside this certain attack range where if falco attacks it cant hit you but you can punish, and if he takes a defensive option you can move him towards the edge of the stage and force him to jump or roll and then punish those options acoordingly. Of course this is much easier said than done since falco is really fast and tricky and punishes you really hard if you dont react fast enough, all in all it just takes a lot of time and practice.
Also you should jab grab and jab forward tilt more, they are really good vs spacies.
Basically the goal with falco is to get inside this certain attack range where if falco attacks it cant hit you but you can punish, and if he takes a defensive option you can move him towards the edge of the stage and force him to jump or roll and then punish those options acoordingly. Of course this is much easier said than done since falco is really fast and tricky and punishes you really hard if you dont react fast enough, all in all it just takes a lot of time and practice.
Also you should jab grab and jab forward tilt more, they are really good vs spacies.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YgvZVy7sGY
Check out that up-tilt at 0:44. That's been happening to me a lot lately. Does that only happen in 1.2?
Also, my depressing set vs m2k:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI6bKcnyKL4
Check out that up-tilt at 0:44. That's been happening to me a lot lately. Does that only happen in 1.2?
Also, my depressing set vs m2k:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI6bKcnyKL4
choknater
Smash Obsessed
bummer about game 3 lol
looks like you just have to win game 1 and you're set
looks like you just have to win game 1 and you're set
http://evo2013.s3.amazonaws.com/brackets/ssbm_c63.html
My Evo pool. Pretty tough I think, but at least there isn't any top player. I think could get first seed, but it won't be easy.
Could anyone give my some advice? I know Fly have played against both DEHF and Scar. Matt doesn't seem to know the match up, and I'm pretty confident that I can beat Gimpyfish.
My Evo pool. Pretty tough I think, but at least there isn't any top player. I think could get first seed, but it won't be easy.
Could anyone give my some advice? I know Fly have played against both DEHF and Scar. Matt doesn't seem to know the match up, and I'm pretty confident that I can beat Gimpyfish.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
Yeah Matt sucks vs. Ice Climbers. Scar is solid but beatable and also not as good at the IC matchup as the other big Falcons. I haven't seen Larry play since Apex 2010 so I have no clue how in practice he will be, or if he will even get some ICs practice before Evo. So yeah I think you have a shot at first seed and should be making it out of that pool.
PB&J
Smash Hero
My body is ready for evo 
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Larry never plays very much, but he's always been able to get back in shape pretty quickly and his weird style is one I've always found much more difficult to deal with than more standard Falcos. He'll probably be the hardest player in that pool.
Binx
Smash Master
I've played Gimpy, bowser's up b is deceptively good, and he is really good at barely dodging moves with his fsmash and landing them, so make sure you give yourself a little bit if extra room to land those hits.