Social General Ice Climber Chat

[GhllieShdeKnife]

if falcon knows the matchup and is expecting a DA then jumps you can brake and wait then go ahead and dash attack as a mixup, it works really well if the falcon is afraid of it.

 

[choknater]

currently studying hitboxes.... very good to look at those gifs

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRYn_jEVQDI&list=UUCNEwrG1dZcK8-fQuNuR-bg
i beat him 2-0 in pools but once he adapted to my style, he was able to pull out the set in bracket. What are some good neutral game mixups i could use to play this **** better?

 

[choknater]

overall i think u played really well

but there were a couple times you WD forward into peach's moves when she was right in front of you. you had a lot of really good rolls, but i think one or two bad ones that got punished, so just be careful.

there were also a couple times where peach was floating in mid range, kinda high. you can up-B out of shield into nana blizzard to make her respect that space.

other than that, i think you would've won if you didn't get nervous on his second to last stock. i saw you were making lots of bad decisions on that particular stock.

 

[Nintendude]

You do a good job of staying mobile and reacting to Peach's movement but I think you give her a little too much freedom with her space. Sometimes you wait near the edge too much which is just asking for Peach to trap you. I understand it's hard to do that better because it's Peach but some well placed uairs and f-smashes early on can go a long way towards making Peach more cautious in the matchup (which makes it a lot easier imo). It's also a lot easier to fight Peach from the center.

edit: upon watching the whole set you actually get much better about this as the set goes on. You would have had that for sure if you didn't mess up those down-smash punishes at the end.

You should learn how to charge smashes from grabs. All you have to do is tap A and then C-stick + Z (tho I use C-stick + A for some reason lol) to charge. You can kill with up-smash a lot earlier if you do this. Also I'm sure you know this already but if you get a solo d-throw at low %, up-smash or dash-A depending on DI is probably your best bet. At higher percent I like to Nair since it's harder to mess up, unless they DI back then you should Bair obviously. WD up-smash works against DI away at barely KO range which is convenient.

Other than that stuff it was mainly just not optimizing your punishes or failing to punish stuff like a shielded/whiffed down-smash. As chok said you played really solidly overall. Also a trick I like to do (something that Chu told me to do actually) vs. Peach is wavedash back full jump bair to catch her recovery near the stage. It gets people all the time.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

I didnt see you trying to catch her turnips, that is 1 of the main things that has given me luck against peach. i was impressed by your use of ice blocks and rolls to bait. I think learning to catch turnips is pretty easy but mad respect overall man.

 

[PB&J]

Follow me on twitch http://www.twitch.tv/pbnj23

Im going to be streaming PM and Melee pretty often

thanks in advance

 

[Nintendude]

Yesterday I was playing vs. my friend Icer's Fox and I was edgeguarding him with blizzard. Right when he got hit by it and got put into an icicle, Nana synched up and shot a blizzard the other direction. Then all of a sudden Fox warps from below the edge into Nana's blizzard back on the stage LOL. Has anyone seen that happen before?

 

[choknater]

O_O never

weird!

 

[xKobayashi]

wtf am i supposed to be doing in the fox neutral game? haha
my problem is this:
i am playing a technical, smart, patient fox, who is not going to make an obvious mistake that allows me to capitalize with a grab/dsmash
he has played the matchup so much that as soon as nana is desynched he can kill her in 2 shines and a dair off the edge
i can only approach with wavedash jab and even that is obvious and is beaten out by nair
so...
what are good approaches, how can i fend off nairs, and what should my main objective be in neutral

 

[choknater]

be a little more defensive

i've found great success by simply bairing in place, or doing some fairs in place, preferably fadeaway fairs if i have some room behind me. i learned from watching chudat that i should not wavedash forward very much if i have not conditioned the fox to respect my space. if i want to get close, i just run forward and wavedash back to retreat, so that i can shield immediately while moving forward (you cannot do the same with wavedash forward).

when you space like this, it makes it very difficult for fox to have a safe approach. because you are constantly moving, it makes it hard for him to space his aerials and not get shield grabbed.

when fox runs into one of your defensive aerials, it gives you momentum. for example, i have gotten many kills from getting a random bair, wavedash, jab reset or grab. or random fair spike onto the floor, jab reset, grab. i am also trying to work autocancel uairs into my game. they are really good but difficult for me to do consistently in a match.

utilt is another option to stop him from freely getting over your head.

IT IS ONLY AFTER YOU HAVE ESTABLISHED A GOOD DEFENSE that fox will start to respect your space and give you more freedom to move. this is when he will start dash dancing for a long time and camping platforms. since he has the speed advantage it is still hard to space him, but generally you want to keep protecting your own space so that nana doesn't get gimped. so the way to safely approach him is by poking at him from below platforms. poke at his possible jump angles, not where he's actually standing. and don't jump too high or else he will get below you. you want to try to bait him into doing a foolish move that you can punish with death. when he is dash dancing, you can do things like have nana throw an ice block and force him to jump, or just do your basic approach of wd jab.

i'd advise to stay synced in the neutral game to put nana at less risk, but there are times when i will do a belay OOS nana blizzard, or roll away to nana blizzard, just to see if fox will run into it and give me a free grab.

if your defense is not good enough, some foxes will just insist on going in hard. in these difficult scrambles you really need to train yourself to find the right moves to use at the right times that will stop his approaches. eventually though, i believe every fox will just start to get scared because they got grabbed bair, fair, ftilt, utilt, fsmash, short hop uair, blizzard, and even dash attack are all good moves to try out.

seeing this gif helped me a lot:

see how the nair hitbox does not go beyond the tip of his foot. the nair hitbox is not really great, it is fox's movement that is great. the way to defeat fox is by defeating his movement.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

have you looked at the matchup thread? sh nairs can be beaten by upangled ftilt and if he full hop nairs and if you predict it you can take them out of their jump with an upair. if they wont approach and just laser you a bunch just threaten space with our excellent WD. if they still dont approach wall them with iceblocks and blizzard/nanapult to the egde to cut off all their options and wait for them to jump or try to roll behind you.
im still working on it so the above advice should take priority

 

[choknater]

yeah ic's wd is good, but you just have to remember that in today's metagame, wd forward is BAD in the neutral game unless you have conditioned them to respect that space. those frames of lag after wavedashing are very punishable by every character, and is the main reason ic's players would have problems with peach, puff, marth, and ganon. you will just get obliterated if you wavedash forward against them. there are better ways to threaten space. against those slower characters, blizzard is a nice favorite.

against fox, you kinda have to protect your immediate space more, which makes sense since he is a close range character and really fast.

against falco, uhmmmm. i'm lost. LOLOL.. i used to be good at it but idk anymore...

 

[xKobayashi]

@choknater
that is literally the most helpful/informative/well written post i have ever seen, thanks so much

 

[choknater]

no problem dude

fighting fox has been on my mind a lot lately too

just keep experimenting and dont give up. if the fox is truly good, it is likely you won't get immediate results. i do believe he has a slight advantage in the matchup

 

[ShroudedOne]

" the way to defeat fox is by defeating his movement."

This is a concise, yet extremely good way to understand how to beat Fox. Just quoting for emphasis.

 

[Binx]

Thats good advice Chok I will try to be more mindful of when I WD towards someone, as far as the Fox match up goes I have always been pretty stumped, I'll completely own some foxes then get man handled by others, vs Falco though I feel like we have a lot more room. First of all Falco's approach isnt as good. His lasers can be directly punished from surprisingly far away as well by doing wavedashes into them with a fsmash or by running and jumping into blizzard.

 

[PB&J]

Ill be playing Icy's later on my stream http://www.twitch.tv/pbnj23

 

[DippnDots]

Hey Ice Cucumbers,

When I hit Nana it doesn't add percent at the bottom, but does she have her own separate percent from Popo? I feel like if you smack her enough you see her knock back increasing.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

yes. also good tips on the wd forward probably try that a bit tonight

 

[xKobayashi]

ok. so now that we established that the safest/smartest way to maintain movement against fox is to run forward and either shield/wd back if he challenges you with an arial, what happens if he doesn't challenge you
in other words if you run towards fox is their anything else you should do besides shield or wavedash, like run into jab or neutral air or something, cause i feel like if i just keep shielding or wavedashing back if the fox plays safe and smart though i might not be getting hit, i am never hitting him. how can i create my own openings and not rely on the mistakes of my opponent?

 

[xKobayashi]

oops double post sorry

 

[A-1]

ok. so now that we established that the safest/smartest way to maintain movement against fox is to run forward and either shield/wd back if he challenges you with an arial, what happens if he doesn't challenge you
in other words if you run towards fox is their anything else you should do besides shield or wavedash, like run into jab or neutral air or something, cause i feel like if i just keep shielding or wavedashing back if the fox plays safe and smart though i might not be getting hit, i am never hitting him. how can i create my own openings and not rely on the mistakes of my opponent?

id try a dashdance blizzard grab.

 

[DippnDots]

ok. so now that we established that the safest/smartest way to maintain movement against fox is to run forward and either shield/wd back if he challenges you with an arial, what happens if he doesn't challenge you
in other words if you run towards fox is their anything else you should do besides shield or wavedash, like run into jab or neutral air or something, cause i feel like if i just keep shielding or wavedashing back if the fox plays safe and smart though i might not be getting hit, i am never hitting him. how can i create my own openings and not rely on the mistakes of my opponent?

I think you're looking at it the wrong way, capitalizing on mistakes your opponent makes is one of the most important things you can do in this game. You can't ever really "make" anything happen. You can try to get in someones head, bait something out, but it's never guaranteed, where capitalizing on mistakes are guaranteed unless YOU mess up.

But to answer your question directly, focus on zoning people to the edges, you can pressure people into doing things that aren't smart because losing ground makes them feel uncomfortable.

 

[choknater]

yes dippndots is right. sometimes people's idea of attacking is just going in and choosing an attack. to me, this is just guessing. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't work out. sure, there are attacks that are LIKELY to be effective on the offensive but those can be baited out so it's still a guess. i actually like to play that high risk play sometimes, but ideally we should work on our defense and controlling our own space, so really the best offense would be to inch your little bubble of space nearer and nearer to the opponent until they get caught in it, or are forced to run.

in this way, we'll be forcing errors, rather than guessing.

 

[Shadocat]

Whenever i use ice climbers in friendlies, i always d-smash like all the time, especially when my opponent is close to me. how do i get out of this bad habit???

 

[Divinokage]

yes dippndots is right. sometimes people's idea of attacking is just going in and choosing an attack. to me, this is just guessing. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't work out. sure, there are attacks that are LIKELY to be effective on the offensive but those can be baited out so it's still a guess. i actually like to play that high risk play sometimes, but ideally we should work on our defense and controlling our own space, so really the best offense would be to inch your little bubble of space nearer and nearer to the opponent until they get caught in it, or are forced to run.

in this way, we'll be forcing errors, rather than guessing.

In today's metagame, even if you miss once.. you'll definitely get whiff punished so that idea of attacking just to attack is pretty flawed. You need to make every movement and every attack you make with purpose meaning you never do anything without having some kind of plan behind it. If you dont do that then your attacks will be predictable and youll fall in some kind of pattern thats easy to read. It's important to adjust yourself to what your opponent does too, your plan will change depending on what he has done. So ya be as precise as possible because it will hurt if you miss. =P

 

[choknater]

Whenever i use ice climbers in friendlies, i always d-smash like all the time, especially when my opponent is close to me. how do i get out of this bad habit???

press random buttons, honestly

put less pressure on yourself, and experiment with every move

this way it becomes more intuitive to discover what is good and bad. if you're dsmashing all the time like you say, then try different things in different situations. simple as that!

 

[john!]

Whenever i use ice climbers in friendlies, i always d-smash like all the time, especially when my opponent is close to me. how do i get out of this bad habit???

play peach

 

[Kyu Puff]

play peach

That will only solidify his bad habit...

 

[Vanitas]

Are there any potential uses for the dtilt? I see Chudat often using it to set up for Fsmashes when edgeguarding but are there any other applications?

 

[john!]

That will only solidify his bad habit...

everyone expects peach to dsmash and will punish you for it :D

 

[Kyu Puff]

Are there any potential uses for the dtilt? I see Chudat often using it to set up for Fsmashes when edgeguarding but are there any other applications?

I sometimes use it to punish missed techs against spacies. D-tilt -> jab usually leads into grab.

 

[Nintendude]

Why d-tilt -> jab -> grab when you can just jab reset instead?

 

[choknater]

i use dtilt to edgeguard sometimes, because if they try to DI an fsmash properly (up and in) then the dtilt just sets up for an fsmash haha.

sometimes if somebody is trying to jab me, i will cc dtilt.

the move is a nice poke and sets up into other things. not a bad move

 

[Construct]

What do you guys like to use as damage builders against Puff? Like any cute little combos or things to do out of grab. Does down throw down air work and my timing is just awful? Thanks!

 

[choknater]

to be honest i dthrow fsmash her immediately... haha

dthrow dair will combo but generally puff can always jump out of your follow up

i use a lot of aerials in the matchup, i dont grab much because she is hard to grab

generally i like to hide behind blizzard

but chudat's take on the matchup is also very good. he is very smart in timing his approaches with bairs. lots and lots of run forward/wave dash back spacing

 

[Kyu Puff]

Why d-tilt -> jab -> grab when you can just jab reset instead?

Because jab reset doesn't always work if they anticipate it. If they buffer attack it can really mess you up. D-tilt pops them into the air so everything is DI dependent rather than get-up dependent. It's not necessarily a better option, but it's different and has different pros and cons.

 

[DippnDots]

What do you guys like to use as damage builders against Puff? Like any cute little combos or things to do out of grab. Does down throw down air work and my timing is just awful? Thanks!

You should come to OSU Campus (Columbus) tournaments! We haven't had an IC's player in forever!

Edit: Sorry... should have PM'd that

 

[Nintendude]

Dropped 2 sets this weekend I think I should have won:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwefK4nUgu0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMC0gJJoMDs

Anyone have suggestions for adjustments I should have made to counter their movement and attack patterns? Or to avoid those gimps? I feel like whenever I lose to Fox it's because I get gimped. I should just use Peach instead...