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Gay, ****, Homo and similar words...

D

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yes lets all stop acting natural and being ourselves and sucking up to norms because we're insecure about what other people think

basically yeah. it's an act of courtesy to restrict one's language but a courtesy is a luxury more than it is a necessity. if a person becomes offended, that's fine but that person also has to accept that his/her emotional response is his/her problem and not anyone else's problem.
 

Superspright

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yes lets all stop acting natural and being ourselves and sucking up to norms because we're insecure about what other people think
So you're naturally a crass tool? This isn't about insecurity. It's about respect. Someone should really smack some sense into you. You've clearly never been on the victim's end.
 
D

Deleted member

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So you're naturally a crass tool? This isn't about insecurity. It's about respect. Someone should really smack some sense into you. You've clearly never been on the victim's end.

being able to understand and empathize with both sides of the argument is a matter of respect, even if you don't agree with one of those sides. making huge assumptions about your peers is not only bad debate, it's also not respectful.

mikehaggar: i saw a sign while i was working today, it listed an "insane deal" for bracelets. surely having the message reinforced through marketing is indicative of our acceptance to language in a broader sense. made me think of your posts in this thread.
 

Kyu Puff

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yes lets all stop acting natural and being ourselves and sucking up to norms because we're insecure about what other people think
yes lets all revert to our animal nature and steal and **** and kill whatever we feel like because social norms and empathy are completely useless human inventions
 

Superspright

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Yeah. I feel like watching Mikehaggard slide down a polearm through his taint while I eat filet migon. It's the only thing that is natural to me. Jump on that pike you asshole. Hey Mike, are you attempting to be the dumbest poster? Because you've won!
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Yeah. I feel like watching Mikehaggard slide down a polearm through his taint while I eat filet migon. It's the only thing that is natural to me. Jump on that pike you *******. Hey Mike, are you attempting to be the dumbest poster? Because you've won!

yet another poster that missed the point completely. 0/10.
 

Superspright

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Umbreon, can you please suck my ****? It's only natural for me. /sarcasm

Mikehaggard is a ****ing troll, period.
 

Strong Badam

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I'd just like to again bring up the hypothetical situation where a proponent of using "gay" as a negative adjective were being compared to Jigglypuff repeatedly, and how that would make them feel. It doesn't make me feel particularly great, and I'd hope that you would understand why.
 

Kadano

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yes lets all revert to our animal nature and steal and **** and kill whatever we feel like because social norms and empathy are completely useless human inventions
Nice slippery slope!
Is it really so hard to understand that there is a drastic difference between mentioning something and harming people directly? I’d almost explain the point MikeHaggar and Umbreon have made once again, but considering you didn’t get it the last few times they did I don’t think it would help.

Has there even ever been a smasher who was ***** once and took offense to someone using the word **** in a Melee-related sense?
 

Kyu Puff

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Nice slippery slope!
Is it really so hard to understand that there is a drastic difference between mentioning something and harming people directly? I’d almost explain the point MikeHaggar and Umbreon have made once again, but considering you didn’t get it the last few times they did I don’t think it would help.
Not a slippery slope argument as much as a response to MikeHaggar trivializing things that are fundamental to our humanity. I was merely highlighting the absurdity of describing empathy as "being insecure about what other people think" and construing it as some oppressive social construct.

It was almost as bad as you trivializing this entire argument. Is it really so hard to understand that there is a drastic difference between mentioning something and using language that actually hurts people? I'd almost explain the ways in which language is a powerful weapon that can deeply affect someone on an emotional level, but considering you didn't get it the last dozens of times it's been explained in this very thread, I don't think it would help.
 

Kadano

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Is it really so hard to understand that there is a drastic difference between mentioning something and using language that actually hurts people?
Not at all. You not including my last question in your quote and at the same time stating that it does actually hurt people implies there has been at least one instance of this happening. So, could you be so kind to show it to me (preferably by quoting this person’s post)?

When you mention such things, people are confronted with their unresolved problems. They can choose to either get hurt by this or to grow over it. Hurt is not a necessary consequence unlike getting stabbed by someone. By bringing it up, you might actually help them overcome their state of learned helplessness.
Much suffering is caused by people telling themselves that they have no choice when they actually have great freedom.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Umbreon, can you please suck my ****? It's only natural for me. /sarcasm

Mikehaggard is a ****ing troll, period.
Posts like this only reinforce my point. Your willingness to post this reply tells me that you accept the idea that you will offend your targets, Mike and myself, in an attempt to communicate your viewpoint. Asking a known **** victim to suck your dick is much more likely to have an emotional impact than referring to the game using the same language because you give it relevant context and direction. You have a strictly higher chance to be offensive this way because of your use of the same language. For a comparative example, I could say "Fox is a faggot" or I could say "Strong Bad is a faggot". Adam's viewpoint makes sense to me that the vulgarity still carries the negative connotation, but the context difference of making it more personal and targeting a specific person makes the latter statement substantially more likely to elicit a traumatic emotional response. It is your willingness to criticize an action and then do something strictly worse that makes the situation so ironic. And that's why you've missed the point completely. 0/10.

I know from prior experience that Adam's person is intelligent enough to process this concept in an objective manner, as am I. Neither of us is going to take this debate personally or become upset over it. I can understand why he makes the statements that he does and I empathize with his point of view, even though I personally do not hold that stance, and he can probably do the same for my viewpoint as well. However, it is your inability to process an opposing stance with clarity and emotional maturity that ultimately leads your action to be the greater of two evils, having already directly tried to cause that response from me. And frankly, it's poor debating as well.
 

Superspright

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Should I bold the sarcasm this time? Or should I just jump through your screen and say "I WAS JUST KIDDING!" You're being intellectually dishonest now, and it's really silly.

I was ***** for a year straight, Umbreon. I am not going to apologize for the abuse I've had either. I know where you are coming from utterly and completely to the ****ing core.
 

Xyzz

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You being sarcastic / just kidding is relevant exactly how? It's not like the people calling 4 stocks **** would be serious about that either.
From the impression I get of him posting on the boards, I rather doubt Umbreon would actually take offense... but I think that can easily be deceiving; and I suppose especially people who advocate the removal of potentially offensive things out of ones speech, should definitely make sure that they do so themselves.

Just saying.
 

stelzig

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I think alot of europeans also don't care that much about these two words because their primary use is the meaning used in gaming here. Not that I personally would care much if the danish version of those words were used either, heh - And I actually think i've heard them being used that way before, though not very commonly.

(I somewhat think that's why Nicco said what he did though as the word he wouldn't say, is the same in danish :p)
 

Superspright

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You being sarcastic / just kidding is relevant exactly how? It's not like the people calling 4 stocks **** would be serious about that either.
From the impression I get of him posting on the boards, I rather doubt Umbreon would actually take offense... but I think that can easily be deceiving; and I suppose especially people who advocate the removal of potentially offensive things out of ones speech, should definitely make sure that they do so themselves.

Just saying.
You're right. You are just saying. No content there at all.
 

Xyzz

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Oh, imho the post is doing a fine job at calling you out for being a hypocrite. Sure, it doesn't contribute much to the actual topic of the thread, but I don't think every post needs to do that.
 
D

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the basis of hypocrisy is a conveyed intellectual lack of congruence. logical inconsistency is naturally indicative of a questionable stance.
 

ZeldaFreak0309

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I'd just like to again bring up the hypothetical situation where a proponent of using "gay" as a negative adjective were being compared to Jigglypuff repeatedly, and how that would make them feel. It doesn't make me feel particularly great, and I'd hope that you would understand why.
For all the abstract 'logic'-ing that has been going on in the past few pages, it's pretty disappointing how nobody has even responded to this, which is an actual, concrete example of what we're talking about. Are you guys really going to tell Strong Bad his feelings are illegitimate? And if not, what's your response?

I HEAR the argument about context. For everyone saying the word "gay" has taken on a new meaning, one separate from "homosexual", I'd like you to take your own advice and CONSIDER CONTEXT. We DON'T live in a society where being gay is accepted. ONLY RECENTLY did the Supreme Court decide gay marriage is recognizable, and there's still enormous backlash coming out of that decision (which was narrowly won by a 5-4 vote, by the way). Are you seriously going to suggest to me that we somehow live in a post-racist, post-homophobic, post-sexist society? All of that bigoted **** is still alive and kicking, and so you should realize that when STRAIGHT men decide to use the word "gay" to mean "lame," it's NOT REALLY CONVINCING that there's no latent homophobic sentiment behind it. Not everyone in the community is your best friend who knows exactly who you are and what you're about. It's not really in your place to tell someone they "shouldn't" be offended by something.

And to all the people asking "Who even complains about this?" and then following that up with "anyone who complains about this is being a whiny *****", you're answering your own question. Nobody ENJOYS calling attention to things like this and telling people to stop saying words that trigger them or make them feel unwelcome. Why would anyone want to purposely call attention to themselves, and risk getting called a "whiny *****"? Most people just deal with it. But it's ****ty, and I still have yet to hear a good argument for why NOT BEING ABLE TO SAY A FEW SPECIFIC WORDS is literally worse than alienating entire groups of people. If your argument is simply "I don't care about how others feel, I refuse to censor myself for others' sake" then what you're essentially saying is "I lack empathy" (read: "I'm an asshole"). And that's what the original point was anyway.
 

Vurka

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As a homosexual I would strongly prefer if "gay, " "homo, " "******," and the like were never used in the way they are in our or any community. It's extremely offensive when my sexuality is compared to Jigglypuff. Come on guys, homosexuality isn't even remotely similar to the level of lame that is.

I can only assume similar is felt by anyone who has been literally "*****," about how we use that term. I understand that that's much easier said than done, it'll probably happen the same day Mew2King smells good at a tournament. I'm pretty desensitized to this stuff by now, so it doesn't affect me as much as it would a newcomer to the scene, but it's definitely a problem.

You say you find it extremely offensive yet you're pretty desensitized by now.
 

Crooked Crow

drank from lakes of sorrow
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It's okay guys, OP probably lives at Church and Wellesley.

Kidding. They are just words. Who gives a crap? You should understand the concept of context by now.
 

Superspright

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I'm glad to see that this is still a KID'S fighting game and not a community run by adults or anything. This callous, callow behavior is a detriment to our community and yourselves. Next time something bothers you, don't complain--we all cry out when we are hurt because we do not want to be hurt anymore, and if a large portion of human beings do not want you to use **** unless it means sexual assault, or not use gay as a pejorative then you're doing a disservice to the empathy you were born with, and denying that people have feelings that are worth anything at all outside of the context of your own myopic worldview. It seems some people are highly unimaginative and can't see that someone can't HELP but be bothered by this. It's part of their identity whether they chose it or not.

You say you find it extremely offensive yet you're pretty desensitized by now.
Having thick skin and actually being insensitive are two different things. Clearly he's not insensitive to it if he plainly states it bothers him and he'd appreciate it if others would stop using the word that way. It obviously hurts, and he will not just suck it up and deal with it. He shouldn't have to. He's a human being, and he deserves respect.
 

BADGRAPHICS

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Using the words "gay" and "homo" in these contexts is generally synonymous for "weak", so it counts as a form of passive discrimination, and really should be moderated in polite company.

"****", on the other hand is a violent term, and doesn't discriminate any particular group of people. The reason that people are more sensitive about this term, compared to a term like "kill", which as a concept is obviously more violent. is because you're not in any danger of using the term "kill" around anybody who has actually been killed. There's not as much of a reason to curb its usage.
 

clowsui

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Whoops I was supposed to write something. Lolol ill have something tomorrow morning but max your white heterosexual privilege is showing
 

Grim Tuesday

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Using the words "gay" and "homo" in these contexts is generally synonymous for "weak", so it counts as a form of passive discrimination, and really should be moderated in polite company.

"****", on the other hand is a violent term, and doesn't discriminate any particular group of people. The reason that people are more sensitive about this term, compared to a term like "kill", which as a concept is obviously more violent. is because you're not in any danger of using the term "kill" around anybody who has actually been killed. There's not as much of a reason to curb its usage.

What about someone whose friend has been killed?
 

BADGRAPHICS

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What about someone whose friend has been killed?
There's not the same kind of sensetivity there. When was the last time you heard of somobody being offended because somebody said "I'm gonna kill you"? I guess it's because either death is so commonplace, or because we're all desensitised from seeing violence in the media.
 

Eisen

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I used to use these terms myself. In my last year of high school, I began to eliminate my uses of them.

As somebody who's bisexual (which includes being attracted to men just as equally as a gay man [or the same idea for a gay woman]), I don't particularly take offense to "gay" but when I hear it thrown around for every uncanny instance, I have to sit back and be like, "really?"

There is such a thing as context and I am aware that most people mean these things harmlessly. Nonetheless, while nobody can really force censorship rules on anyone, nor should any such restrictions be enforced, it simply would be a gesture of sympathy for other human beings that would more than likely lead to things like being a more respected player and possibly earning more friendships. More importantly, as others have pointed out, it's about the community's image as well.

Soooo, to be brief: it's not necessary to curtail the abuse of the words "gay" and "****", but cutting these words from one's Smash vernacular would be doing oneself and others a favor. I'm not expecting anybody to go through with it, but I will respect others who, at the very least, care.
 

killazys

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Context is important, but I'm still more concerned about the systematic societal oppression bit. That's a rather easy way to determine if a word is more likely to be offensive.

Look, DOMA was shot down by the Supreme Court just a few months ago. Gays are fighting for equal acceptance in society and equal privileges as everyone else which is really why saying something is gay is something we should avoid because it perpetuates a double standard. This is also why I don't go around saying n!gger all the time.
 

Xyzz

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Soooo, to be brief: it's not necessary to curtail the abuse of the words "gay" and "****", but cutting these words from one's Smash vernacular would be doing oneself and others a favor. I'm not expecting anybody to go through with it, but I will respect others who, at the very least, care.
*highfive* for having pretty much the same opinion on the matter as I do :3
 
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