Ganondorf's Top 8 Custom Movesets

[Davis-Lightheart]

Whoo boy this list has been hard.

From what I've seen from this thread, and some others scattered around, this seems to be his 3 priority movesets.

X322
X122
X121

For his other three, I went with.

X332
X221
X321

Edit: Actually, I may have some left overs. X131, X132 if people want to really go for those.

Now that I think about it, I should explain my reasoning. I based all this on both popularity, and a bit of an understanding of how you guys seem to want to play Ganon. For the top 3, I picked purely from a sense of popularity because they were the most agreed on. For the bottom three, I tried to take a little more of my understanding of the situation from you guys.

There seems to be a real divide between the flame moves, but none seemed particularly useless. Flame Choke is still considered a fairly useful move and works pretty well all things considered. Flame Wave has been relatively ignored, but I felt Ray_Kalm may have brought a good point about it's potential as a move that KOS, so I felt it deserved a chance. Flame Chain is also pretty popular as a secondary option for certain matchups it seems. None of the moves outclass each other in the typical sense, from what I've read, it came down to a lot of preference.

Dark Fists was pretty much the winner and even I can see a use in it; as dense as I may be, but Dark Vault still isn't a terrible move for certain matchups, so I felt it too deserved a chance as one of the more obscure ones to see how it could evolve in use.

Wizard Dropkick and Wizkick have their uses. So I tried to divide them up equally as best I could, based on the evidence provided to me and their combinations.

The points brought up seem to lead in this direction after all that, but I still couldn't decide between Warlock blade or thrust. However, before going further into that topic, I want all your opinions on this current idea for a list. If everyone finds it ok, we can then try to finish off the thrust vs blade debate once and for all. But I'm open for a poll if it's not unmanageable.

 

[Humanity]

That list is excellent, in my opinion.

 

[Big O]

I disagree with X221 being a contender for a slot. Flame Wave is not good, and that set is fundamentally similar enough with 2222 that it isn't worth considering. I'd replace it with X132.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I will consider that change if there are no objections to it by 1:30PM EST time. You bring up a pretty fair point about it's similarity to 2222.

 

[Toxicroaker]

Whoo boy this list has been hard.

From what I've seen from this thread, and some others scattered around, this seems to be his 3 priority movesets.

X322
X122
X121

For his other three, I went with.

X332
X221
X321

Edit: Actually, I may have some left overs. X131, X132 if people want to really go for those.

Now that I think about it, I should explain my reasoning. I based all this on both popularity, and a bit of an understanding of how you guys seem to want to play Ganon. For the top 3, I picked purely from a sense of popularity because they were the most agreed on. For the bottom three, I tried to take a little more of my understanding of the situation from you guys.

There seems to be a real divide between the flame moves, but none seemed particularly useless. Flame Choke is still considered a fairly useful move and works pretty well all things considered. Flame Wave has been relatively ignored, but I felt Ray_Kalm may have brought a good point about it's potential as a move that KOS, so I felt it deserved a chance. Flame Chain is also pretty popular as a secondary option for certain matchups it seems. None of the moves outclass each other in the typical sense, from what I've read, it came down to a lot of preference.

Dark Fists was pretty much the winner and even I can see a use in it; as dense as I may be, but Dark Vault still isn't a terrible move for certain matchups, so I felt it too deserved a chance as one of the more obscure ones to see how it could evolve in use.

Wizard Dropkick and Wizkick have their uses. So I tried to divide them up equally as best I could, based on the evidence provided to me and their combinations.

The points brought up seem to lead in this direction after all that, but I still couldn't decide between Warlock blade or thrust. However, before going further into that topic, I want all your opinions on this current idea for a list. If everyone finds it ok, we can then try to finish off the thrust vs blade debate once and for all. But I'm open for a poll if it's not unmanageable.

I think the list is perfect (it's what I have in my game)

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Thirty minutes left before the final list. If Big O is unchallenged then I will change X221 to X132 and we can get to the final sword and thrust debate.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Very well then.

The final list is:
X322
X122
X121
X332
X132
X321

Now to finish the debate between punch, sword, and thrust. I'm going to open a poll for them.

 

[Daeyrat]

I will suggest people think about Team Battles when picking their favorite Standard B. What's the best B variation for team battles?

 

[Xinc]

I will suggest people think about Team Battles when picking their favorite Standard B. What's the best B variation for team battles?

Imo it's either
2321 or 2311: I don't care as much on the recovery part, but warlock blade allows movement control and force your opponents away, allowing you to gain some control and back your teammate. WizKick is also a good gtfo move, better than dropkick. Flame chain doesn't require as much dedication as the normal flame choke and doesn't take nearly as long. You don't need to follow up and can position the opponent next to your opponent.
or
3321: Warlock thrust is a faster alternative and is more usable than blade.

 

[Toxicroaker]

Well... I think blade should win if we consiter teams.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

I would consider default Warlock Punch for teams. Between the chaos of 2v2 and the opportunities that open up if your teammate is good at multi-hit attacks into a grab, Warlock Punch can be taken advantage of easily in the right conditions, and the pay-off in its increased damage and knockback is more beneficiary than the other punches. In regards to wanting a punch that's faster or further ranged, Ganondorf's uncharged Up and Side smash attacks are faster and more efficient in a team battle. Ganondorf's sheer damage output is his primary niche in team battles, so I find it better to capitalize on that. Punishing is still important, of course, but is moreso secondary to Ganondorf's function compared to his team-viable role as a cleaner.

In 1v1, however, Blade and Thrust are each better options for their higher reliability than the default Warlock Punch. Ganondorf sets should thusly accommodate several 1v1 sets and a couple of 2v2 sets. Compared to team battles, Ganondorf is much more punish-centric in singles, making Blade or Thrust the superior options for being safer methods of punishment compared to the default's large window of commitment.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I've opened a poll for this specific discussion.

By tomorrow, there should be enough evidence for a clearer answer, I hope.

 

[Z1GMA]

Shield Break Options - WB Vs WP:

Sweet Spot Reverse WB kills LV9 mario at 64%.
Reverse WP kills at 17%.

Also:
Utilt Kills at 44%.
Fully charged Fsmash at 37%.

 

[Big O]

Shield Break Options - WB Vs WP:

Sweet Spot Reverse WB kills LV9 mario at 64%.
Reverse WP kills at 17%.

Also:
Utilt Kills at 44%.
Fully charged Fsmash at 37%.

I think you may have overlooked what is perhaps the most evil option.

Shoving them to the edge (by walking) into Ganoncide. It Just Kills!

 

[Z1GMA]

I think you may have overlooked what is perhaps the most evil option.

Shoving them to the edge (by walking) into Ganoncide. It Just Kills!

Haha, yeah. That's actually a good option.
Reverse WP kills Mario at 2% at the ledge, though.

 

[jahkzheng]

Warlock Blade is really that much weaker? I thought it was more comparable. Haven't tested myself. It's the only custom I hadn't unlocked for Ganon on the 3DS and I've not really been custom grinding on the WiiU so I only have three or four customs for Ganon there and Blade isn't one of them.

 

[Toxicroaker]

Warlock Blade is really that much weaker? I thought it was more comparable. Haven't tested myself. It's the only custom I hadn't unlocked for Ganon on the 3DS and I've not really been custom grinding on the WiiU so I only have three or four customs for Ganon there and Blade isn't one of them.

Yeah, it's not nearly as powerful as some people make it out to be. But it's still killing at 64%. Nuff said.

 

[jahkzheng]

Yeah, it's not nearly as powerful as some people make it out to be. But it's still killing at 64%. Nuff said.

Z1G just showed us how Ganon has so many better options for a free punish if the opportunity arises... and they don't have to be sweetspotted. Makes me wonder just how weak Blade is if it's sourspotted or just not tipped. Lot of people were arguing about what neutral custom is best here, and this kinda proves how much more useful default is in this given situation. I've heard that Blade produces more pressure with it's range, but other than that it seems like default does better. I've not had a chance to try Blade out myself, so I really don't know what else about it makes it good or how it's properties would best be implemented.

Regardless, I was hoping for a kill percent about half that. Like 30ish%. At least make it have the shield break punish niche, but as it stands it seems like fsmash and utilt do better and the only reason to use Blade in that situation is to be flashy after a certain percent.... not that there's anything wrong with flash of course, but still. Not sure on it's utility in other situations but seems it's beaten by default in this situation, and Ganon's neutrals don't have a lot of real situations to be honest.

 

[Z1GMA]

Ye, none of his nBs are really that great.

Look at Bowser. He got Long Range Fire Balls as one of his nB Customs.
I really wish we'd get something like that.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

What I grabbed from my Reddit escapades, because every opinion is worth a shot.

This could be just me, but i think there should be a supplemental set using 1321, as sometimes warlock punch is good against heavy characters with the super armour and the increased knockback. Also flame chain works decent enough as approach so you can have the more powerful wizard's foot

Again. I may have no idea what im talking about, but i think it's a good setup against heavies like bowser/ike/dedede.

1 upvote

 

[Lilfut]

I skimmed the thread, but can I mention 3112 (I think it is)? Blade and Dropkick only, it mostly plays like Standorf (no crazy Flame Choke replacements) but with the straight-up-betterness of Warlock Blade and the improved approaching of Wizard's Dropkick.

 

[Radius-86]

Anyone know why Dark Fists doesn't work on Falcon, Bowser, and Dedede? (Assuming no DI.)

 

[SAHunterMech]

2321 or 2122.

Warlock Blade is the least-terrible B move. Dark Fists is the best overall recovery, as Dark Vault suffers from having little to no horizontal control.

Dark Fists in tandem with Flame Chain or Drop Kick lets you recover very flexibly, but I find that having both isn't as good as one or the other. You just NEED a quicker approach move in the form of Choke or Foot. It's really just a matter of playstyle, I think. I don't really feel that Drop Kick is reserved for Projectile users only, it's just a decent approach tool. It's kind of like Wind-Up Raptor Boost: You get a small read, then go in at high speed/distance.

EDIT: I almost forgot, you can live an aerial Wizard's Assault with Dark Vault.

XX33: Joke Moveset or Pending Apocalypse?

 

[JmacAttack]

I have actually been trying Wizard's Assault lately, and I'm starting to see its usefulness. With standard Wizard's Foot, enemies are sent flying forward, which can leave them in position to counterattack Ganon during the move's endlag at low percent. Wizard's Assault sends opponents behind Ganon, goes farther, and does not slow down on hit, making it safe on hit, safe on shield at mid range, and capable of covering back rolls. This also makes it much easier to ledge cancel, as its timing does not vary. This makes it more useful in the Duck Hunt matchup, where the angle of Wizard Dropkick isn't useful for approaching, and where clay pigeons can cause Wizard's Foot to slow down enough that it won't hit the dog, and will end with Ganon right in grab range.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I have actually been trying Wizard's Assault lately, and I'm starting to see its usefulness. With standard Wizard's Foot, enemies are sent flying forward, which can leave them in position to counterattack Ganon during the move's endlag at low percent. Wizard's Assault sends opponents behind Ganon, goes farther, and does not slow down on hit, making it safe on hit, safe on shield at mid range, and capable of covering back rolls. This also makes it much easier to ledge cancel, as its timing does not vary. This makes it more useful in the Duck Hunt matchup, where the angle of Wizard Dropkick isn't useful for approaching, and where clay pigeons can cause Wizard's Foot to slow down enough that it won't hit the dog, and will end with Ganon right in grab range.

The main thing that really kills this move is the ridiculous startup, so there's not many things that will actually get hit by this move. I believe this move is more practical in teams/FFAs though.

 

[Big O]

Wizard's Assault also clanks with any projectile ever, making it not good against (clankable) projectile spammers by default. It is also weaker than WF and deals very little damage/kb towards the end. What really seals the deal in making WA unusable in 1v1 is the fact that it replaces the awesome aerial WF/WDK with a useless move. Air WA has 2x the startup as WF, less damage/kb, and is impossible to recover from offstage w/o Dark Vault.

The slow startup and weaker hit could have maybe be compensated by the positive things it has (interesting launch angle, doesn't slow down on hit, consistent edge canceling, longer distance), but ultimately WF is superior. If you need an approach against projectiles, WDK and maybe Flame Chain are probably what you need.

 

[JmacAttack]

I agree. I've come to realize that WDK can not only kill at kill percent near the ledge, but it can safely be used for edge-guarding. It can also be used to get out of juggles without incurring landing lag, making it a supreme tool for defense as well as offense. That's without even touching the fact that it makes Ganon's horizontal recovery insanely good, likely even better than Sheik's.

 

[DunnoBro]

I also think flame chain is the best option by far, unless maybe the enemy is particular susceptible to choke like little mac, or diddy since they sit in shield a lot. Though even there, flame chain seems better.

It has absurd horizontal knockback, and drags enemies to the ledge if used anywhere near the middle of the stage since the hitbox lasts about half the length of FD. The trajectory is so ridiculous, little mac outright cannot make it back if you hit him with this at 60% in training mode. With rage and a fresh bonus, this can be as low as 40%

Quantified, default choke requires TWO reads to benefit off of. Against a good player not missing their techs this just isn't very feasible. So I'd call it medium risk/low reward in most competitive situations. Flame chain is low risk, medium reward. It sets opponents up for edgeguards, and ganon is pretty great in this position. And due to how he slides after, it's pretty safe on shield.

In fact, flame chain essentially does the job of default wizard kick, and assault while in the neutral. Similar hitbox and opportunities to hit with, but much more rewarding to do so with generally and less painful to miss with. It also clashes with many projectiles with no endlag, letting you progress with it in the same vein powershielding towards the enemy does.

It's also a good escape/reset to neutral, especially while landing due to the distance.
And if you rising short hop with it, you get the same general hitbox but much less ending lag. The only reason to not always use it this would be near the ledge since he'd go right over it. The distance not to do this is about the same as when the default wizard kick would ledge cancel, so it was easy enough for me to get used to it.

And let's not forget it's also just plain great for quickly recovering horizontally. And is a decent onstage recovery option due to lingering hitboxes and distance traveled. Where default choke would still leave ganon on the ledge and in a bad position, this one will put him mid-stage, the ideal position.

Wizard's dropkick is bar none the best version. Helps recovery, get over projectiles, and both edgeguard and set-up for them. It also sets up for combos without ledgecanceling if it hits an opponent while going over the ledge. Is also rather safe on shield due to little end lag and position you hit the opponents shield at generally.

Generally I think dark vault is best, lets ganon go deeper for edgeguards, his aerial momentum doesn't let him go as far out as he does far down. (Chain and dropkick also help remedy horiontal recovery.) Makes gimping diddy in particular far more consistent, likely other characters. It's almost directly superior to default, really. Dark fists however seem good on small stages with platforms where ganon can keep people above him and juggle more consistently, mitigating the lack of movement and opportunities to use this move that keeps it from being OP. Battlefield, and halberd come to mind.

In some matchups where juggling is more likely, or important than edgeguarding/gimping fists might be better. Like say against ZSS, Sheik, MK, etc. Characters ganon can't really threaten offstage.

Also, all the WPs kind of suck, but warlock thrust's speed and range give it actually feasible uses so it is the one that should always be used in 1v1. It's hitbox goes very high, enough to hit people on platforms. Making it a decent anti-aerial for when you're landing before your opponent does, especially with no jump. Generally it seems like flame chain does this job better, and safer, but since in the air it puts you in free fall ganon will suicide if he uses it too close towards the ledge, this is another option.

A fox trot fsmash beats out the sword punch in both range, speed, power, and versaility. Being able to be started from the air doesn't matter since it will always have to hit from the ground generally.

The super armor on regular punch doesn't help in 1v1, though in teams it does make it much more consistent since a properly positioned grabbing/jabbing teammate and you cannot be disrupted by a projectile, or dash attack as easily.

To the point where pushing one enemy offstage with flame chain, then your teammate setting up for a grab/multi-hit jab for you to warlock punch could be a legitimate mix-up. Also thrust's endlag leaves it so even if you hit one opponent, your team isn't in the greatest position.

Sword however doesn't kill that early, and is more difficult to position properly for during a grab (due to mashouts mostly). It could also depend on the teammate, though. If they had more horizontal set-ups, it could be better.

So in summary, I think we could work on the sets a bit honestly.

33X2
With X being a toss-up between fists and vault. (2 and 3)
13X2 for teams.

I'm not a Wii U ganondorf main but I was one in brawl, PM, and brawl minus (And was someone who worked on brawl- ganon originally) and would like to think I'm at least somewhat familiar with the issues ganondorf's movesets, and I don't really see a point in using anything but 3332 and 3332 for the most part, then maybe 31X2 if the stage, or character you're playing against promotes shield sitting to make choke more helpful.

Though even then, chain is better against shield sitters like mac and diddy due to how gimpable they are.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Flame Chain? Huge flaw. Powershield on reaction and punish.

Luigi's Up B and Jigglypuff's rest are hard punishes to it.

All custom moves of any character are match-up dependent.

 

[A2ZOMG]

A fox trot fsmash beats out the sword punch in both range, speed, power, and versaility. Being able to be started from the air doesn't matter since it will always have to hit from the ground generally.

The super armor on regular punch doesn't help in 1v1, though in teams it does make it much more consistent since a properly positioned grabbing/jabbing teammate and you cannot be disrupted by a projectile, or dash attack as easily.

To the point where pushing one enemy offstage with flame chain, then your teammate setting up for a grab/multi-hit jab for you to warlock punch could be a legitimate mix-up. Also thrust's endlag leaves it so even if you hit one opponent, your team isn't in the greatest position.

Sword however doesn't kill that early, and is more difficult to position properly for during a grab (due to mashouts mostly). It could also depend on the teammate, though. If they had more horizontal set-ups, it could be better.

Warlock Blade is the best Neutral B for a few reasons:

Huge shield damage
Massive range for covering landings
Actually does KO respectably early especially if sweetspotted
Armor frames
slightly faster than default

I believe the move is very landable in singles. Very situational, but you can threaten some landings and zoning commitments with this move. The massive shield damage on this move is especially important. You basically do about 90% to a shield if this move connects, which combined with armor frames limits how your opponent can space against this move if you catch them making a commitment, especially one in the air.

Warlock Thrust is still slow at 40 frames + massive ending lag (also no armor frames), and it does terrible damage unless you hit it in close range. Yes you can anti-air with it sorta (for like 9 damage), but Warlock Blade is able to cover more options than Warlock Thrust due to its extremely massive range.

As an added bonus, Warlock Blade is OP in 1p modes because the CPU literally does not know how to deal with it.

I would actually consider Warlock Blade even better in doubles, because of the space it can control. Losing Warlock Punch is not a big deal, because you are already Ganondorf and have his B-air F-smash and U-smash for very early kills. With a teammate who can add some additional zoning to assist you, I believe Warlock Blade is a good move. Very situational, but good.

 

[DunnoBro]

Flame Chain? Huge flaw. Powershield on reaction and punish.

Luigi's Up B and Jigglypuff's rest are hard punishes to it.

All custom moves of any character are match-up dependent.

The hitbox is disjointed and multi-hit, I don't foresee a powershield being a large variable. If it does, just using it more sparingly and not to pressure shields like a dummy would be the better course of action anyway. All the chokes have huge flaws. This one still has the least.

Any punishes by powershielding this could be done by spotdodging the others. And more easily.

And in no way does warlock blade cover more options than thrust, it's too slow to do that and thrust actually has a comparable vertical range. What you mean is that it gives more rewarding option coverage.

The fact you feel the need to tack on how situational it is explains how unreliable it is against a good opponent. It is totally unreliable in a real match, whereas thrust is much less situational. How much damage it does is irrelevant, ganon needs option coverage. This does that. He does not need even more hard punishes.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The hitbox is disjointed and multi-hit, I don't foresee a powershield being a large variable. If it does, just using it more sparingly and not to pressure shields like a dummy would be the better course of action anyway. All the chokes have huge flaws. This one still has the least.

Any punishes by powershielding this could be done by spotdodging the others. And more easily.

No.

Choke & Wave have to be avoided on reaction as they are grabs. Chain is not a grab. It doesn't require you not to be a 'dummy' for it to not get power-shielded and punished. Chain offers Ganon less of a threatening approach as compared to his choke or wave because shield can block it.

But the move isn't entirely unuseful because (like I said before) I'd prefer it in particular match-ups.

 

[DunnoBro]

No.

Choke & Wave have to be avoided on reaction as they are grabs. Chain is not a grab. It doesn't require you not to be a 'dummy' for it to not get power-shielded and punished. Chain offers Ganon less of a threatening approach as compared to his choke or wave because shield can block it.

But the move isn't entirely unuseful because (like I said before) I'd prefer it in particular match-ups.

Choke and wave go essentially nowhere. Unless wave kills it generally resets to neutral. Choke gives a chance for a kill or follow-up, though not a very consistent one. Certainly not worth how easy it is to punish.

Chain goes half the length of FD with a lingering hitbox, is relatively quick making it a superb recovery option, and has tremendous horizontal knockback. Killing at similar percents to wave when used outwards, towards the ledge and not inwards. And like I said, when short hopped instead of grounded, it has much less landing lag thus less punishable.

Yes, shield can block it. But with how landing mechanics work in this game, as well as it's superb movement, you'll have more chances to actually hit with it, and with the trajectory, also benefit from connecting.

Choke/Wave are the match-up specific moves. Slow and ridiculous endlag. And they are also not valid approach options in the least, they are punish options. Furthermore, in the jigglypuff matchup especially, it will almost never catch her since she's rarely grounded or sitting in shield. Chain also helps while recovering, which is very much needed against jiggly. To the point where just not using it when you could possibly be punished in the neutral would be far more beneficial. So even if it's the worse offensive option, it's the far better recovery option that he needs in that matchup.

They're only helpful against characters who play off of shield/rolls generally. Like little mac, diddy, fox, etc. You'll be hard pressed to catch a decent sheik, jiggly, zss, etc with it, however. And on the specific examples choke works again, chain is more beneficial to land due to how the trajectory effects them.

 

[A2ZOMG]

90% of the time Flame Chain is an option, WDK is superior imo. Chain doesn't really do much that other moves can't do for Ganon.

I would only use Flame Chain against Rosalina personally. Though I haven't tried Flame Wave against her, which can kill very early and also works against Luma. I do not know if Flame Chain however is more useful against someone like Duck Hunt.

Flame Choke is overall the best SideB. The fact it exists forces your opponent to space very differently if they don't want to be caught by it, which you can take advantage of. And the setups from Choke are extremely valuable and have game winning potential. Doesn't matter that you may be punished a few times for incorrect reads, the psychological pressure and overall rewards are much more massive. Sheik, Jigglypuff, and ZSS all have to play respectfully against Choke and need to space in the air to avoid it. Ganondorf has situational but powerful anti-airs to compliment this. If you run Chain, your grounded options against these characters are less threatening.

What do you think of Ganon's matchups for SideBs @ Ray_Kalm ? I honestly feel default most of the time is way too good to pass up. Flame Wave I might consider for a few matchups where I lack Choke followups.

 

[DunnoBro]

WDK won't hit an enemy in the same ranges, especially shorter enemies. Not 10% of the time, either. Literally almost a roll distance in front of Ganon for characters like fox, or pika.

Also the choke setups really aren't too hard to play around and if it ever becomes a decent threat, people will learn how to deal with it best, which is easily done with mix-ups. It's not even 50/50, it's like 1/4 unless by the ledge. For something that needed a read to land in the first place, you're not likely to see anything done in a developed meta with choke.

"Doesn't matter you may be punished a few times"
Ganon is easily comboed and edgeguarded, it matters a lot really. He also has difficulty returning to neutral.(Which chain also helps) And is also a better close range anti-projectile. (Clashes with no endlag)

Jiggly puff gives zero ****s about choke unless she's edgeguarding. Why would she respect a grounded move when she's constantly in the air?

 

[A2ZOMG]

WDK is by far safer and leads to better positional advantage in addition to addressing Ganondorf's recovery, and if you're using either move in close range, you're most likely doing something wrong. Another problem with Flame Chain is you lose a safe ledge pressure option. You cannot edge cancel Flame Chain, while with Choke and Wave, you can go off the edge and grab the ledge, which allows you to safely pressure ledge stands without risking being punished if you guess incorrectly.

It doesn't matter that choke setups can be avoided. Every time your opponent gets choked is time you spend establishing an advantage, and Choke by itself does 12%, which is a huge amount of damage for a move that puts you in a very favorable position (this is about as much damage some characters get from D-throw -> aerial). Also your chance of successfully techchasing most characters is definitely more than 1/4 once you understand how to read patterns (even good players have patterns) and use options that cover inward roll safely. Dash away -> Reverse F-smash for instance on most characters can cover inward roll, getup attack, and doing nothing at all.

Yes Ganondorf is easily comboed and edgeguarded, but with Rage boosts, Ganondorf can end stocks ridiculously early with the right reads. By design, he's a high risk high reward character. The reward from Flame Choke reads is extremely massive, and more than justifies the negligible risk you experience trying to predict your opponent's getup. Your opponent will basically never punish you as hard for a missed techchase followup as you can punish them for guessing correctly.

Jigglypuff has to land at some point, and Ganondorf's aerials have more range and damage than hers. The best way for Jigglypuff to avoid dealing with Ganondorf's ridiculous aerials is to be on the ground, and Ganondorf's strong Flame Choke followups are valuable for ensuring that Jigglypuff has to play respectfully against Ganondorf. Whether in the air, or on the ground, Jigglypuff is never safe against a properly played Ganondorf. Never run Flame Chain against Jigglypuff. Choke is much better for controlling her options.

 

[DunnoBro]

I don't see why using flame chain to cover a roll away that a wdk could not hit is "doing something wrong" Or landings near ganon in general. And no, you can't edge cancel, however short hopping it does leave him with much less endlag, letting him set up for edgeguards better. Wave doesn't really go anywhere, so being able to ledge cancel it really isn't that helpful. Similarly for choke, though it is actually somewhat useful.

Unlike bowser or DK, ganon is very easily edgeguarded. Being deep in rage is much more dangerous for him than them, it's really not something so helpful it makes punishes that much less of a variable. And no, flame choke reads generally aren't valuable, and are also unreliable in of themselves. Only against bad players who don't get the extremely easy tech away, or with their backs to the ledge is it more likely to be helpful.

The reward for flame chain is medium, but so is the risk. Ganon is not a high risk, high reward character. He's a high risk, medium reward character. Who has always heavily relied on reads and punishes to accomplish anything, this is why he was bad in brawl. Those aren't enough to win with. Especially with a move like choke, which isn't so great at doing either.

Chain is the best of both worlds.

And it's honestly premature to delve into any meta talk without a customs meta, but default ganon vs default jiggs is clearly jiggs favor. Ganon has the range, but her aerial mobility lets her freely punish anything he has, and hard. Choke doesn't really seem to help, especially if we recall the neutral interactions between them from brawl. Choke doesn't really help much. Certainly not enough to make it the shining example of why to use choke over chain, at any rate.

I also hope you're not overlooking the fact jigglypuff can crouch > rest the default and wave choke. So there's that, too.

The best way for Jigglypuff to avoid dealing with Ganondorf's ridiculous aerials is to be on the ground

Now THAT is what's ridiculous. She doesn't become grounded when threatened by ranged aerials, she just tries to bait stuff out with her immense aerial mobility. See Jiggs vs Marth or even Ganon in melee.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Flame Choke also covers rolls about as well as Flame Chain, and the reward is usually better, even if you don't get a followup, because Flame Chain only does 15% if you land all the hits, which you won't always get if you are covering a roll. Also Flame Choke is faster, and is unblockable, making it more reliable. If your opponent is rolling away from you, Flame Wave and Choke's startup often make them too slow, but Choke is better in the situations where you are in range for it. Otherwise you use Down-B especially because of potential edgecancels/positioning for edgeguards.

Both Bowser and DK are also easily edgeguarded. Moot point. Ganondorf occasionally is easier to gimp, but his recovery is usually fine because he gets decent distance on his Up-B, and nobody edgehogs him in this game. And you can still punish people who techroll Flame Choke. Also it's not actually that simple to tech Flame Choke consistently. Even good players don't tech it all the time, which won't always happen if you are caught buffering shield (which disallows you from teching).

Ganondorf was bad in Brawl because he was a medium reward, but very high risk character. Ganondorf had terrible damage building in Brawl compared to most of the cast, even factoring his few really situational combos. Flame Choke was also easier to spotdodge in Brawl due to spotdodges being better in that game, and did less damage by itself. On top of how easily he was edgehogged, Ganondorf's power was mostly an illusion in Brawl. I don't think you really understand how Ganondorf works honestly.

Ganondorf vs Jigglypuff is even. Jigglypuff does slightly better edgeguarding Ganondorf than some characters, but she has to work to get Ganondorf offstage. Ganondorf's N-air is much safer in this game, and does more damage, and easily walls out Jigglypuff. He can kill Jigglypuff around ~70% with his B-air. Jigglypuff also lost the ability to airdodge bait Ganondorf in this game. She can no longer fastfall airdodge to the ground to freely approach him, which was a big reason she beat Ganondorf in Brawl.

Also, you are completely wrong. Flame Choke and Wave do grab crouching Jiggs. Always has worked against short characters.

Jigglypuff did better against Ganondorf in Melee by being a more broken character, and because Ganondorf's recovery was overall worse in Melee (very predictable, airdodging offstage was worthless while in Smash 4 it's actually very good, could be edgehogged). Also the Jiggs vs Marth matchup as I recall is debatable. Marth does very well in that matchup.

 

[DunnoBro]

Both Bowser and DK are also easily edgeguarded. Moot point. Ganondorf occasionally is easier to gimp

He's always easier to gimp due to poor anti-edgeguard options (he doesn't have super fast and ranged bair/fairs) and needing to recover low with a slow, mostly unthreathreatening hitbox (if he isn't using flame chain)

And you can still punish people who techroll Flame Choke. Also it's not actually that simple to tech Flame Choke consistently. Even good players don't tech it all the time, which won't always happen if you are caught buffering shield (which disallows you from teching).

Good players mostly don't know the timing because ganon is so unthreatening so they don't bother learning. Choke included. (Good players also rarely get choked to begin with)

Regardless, the punish is severely reliant on the opposing player, that inherently makes it very inconsistent. Of that, there can be no denying. Especially in high level player.

Ganondorf was bad in Brawl because he was a medium reward, but very high risk character. Ganondorf had terrible damage building in Brawl compared to most of the cast, even factoring his few really situational combos. Flame Choke was also easier to spotdodge in Brawl due to spotdodges being better in that game, and did less damage by itself. On top of how easily he was edgehogged, Ganondorf's power was mostly an illusion in Brawl. I don't think you really understand how Ganondorf works honestly.

I'd prefer you objectively explain the contrasts than claim I don't know them, as I was very much a ganondorf main for the essential entirety of brawl's lifespan.

I'm claiming ganondorf is still medium reward, but high risk. Perhaps not "very high" but still skewed out of his favor. Choke simply does not provide consistent advantage in sm4sh.

Jigglypuff also lost the ability to airdodge bait Ganondorf in this game. She can no longer fastfall airdodge to the ground to freely approach him, which was a big reason she beat Ganondorf in Brawl.

Another reason was she could completely box him out with her mobility and unless you're playing her on battlefield where air dodges are much less safe, air dodging away still works fine enough against him.

Also, you are completely wrong. Flame Choke and Wave do grab crouching Jiggs. Always has worked against short characters.

Yea, got it confused for default wizard kick. Saw the video a long time ago. Just remember a stream of purple ended abruptly by rest's SFX.

Jigglypuff did better against Ganondorf in Melee by being a more broken character, and because Ganondorf's recovery was overall worse in Melee (very predictable, airdodging offstage was worthless while in Smash 4 it's actually very good, could be edgehogged). Also the Jiggs vs Marth matchup as I recall is debatable. Marth does very well in that matchup.

I did not bring up those matchups to claim jiggly beat those characters, but to point out how she played those matchups. She's still always in the air, baiting reactions like she always does. Chain is a better anti-air, ergo it should stand to reason it has more use in that matchup than an anti-ground/shield.

In the end though, I am not here to convince you chain > choke, but merely to advocate the uses of chain in general for others to test themselves. Obviously you disagree it has general use, but until a firm customs meta takes hold where our theories can be more accurate displayed, that's all they will remain. And I see little point in continuing this specific chain vs choke debate until then.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganondorf's anti-edgeguard is actually very good as long as he didn't DI poorly. Most characters have to respect his U-air and N-air offstage. Yes there's a few matchups that can get around that, and those are often bad for him.

I don't think you comprehend just how high Ganondorf's reward is in this game. In Brawl and Melee, more characters needed about 1.5 hits to equal one Ganon hit. In Smash 4, this is more clearly like 2-3 hits from other characters to equal one Ganondorf hit. The overall reward of most characters in this game is much lower, while Ganondorf got both safety AND damage buffs. He is a very, very massively rewarding character. This isn't meant to claim that he's high tier (his negative state is the main thing that holds him back). However, literally no other character profits to nearly the same level as Ganondorf in the positive state, especially when you factor that his juggles and edgeguards are actually very above average in terms of reliability. Having a techchase game is also huge, because Ganondorf's options to capitalize in techchasing are strong and can result in very early kills, in addition to massive damage.

Also no, Ganondorf doesn't need more anti-airs against Jigglypuff. He actually has a ton of good ones, hell, people actually tried to argue Ganondorf won the matchup in Brawl (he didn't, because Jigglypuff actually beat him from the ground by being too short for him to safely use aerials against). What he actually needs in this matchup is a good ground game to encourage Jigglypuff to play into his air game. Choke supplements this. Chain does not.