Ganondorf's Top 8 Custom Movesets

[Davis-Lightheart]

As part of an ongoing project to push customs into the competitive scene, it's been suggested that people begin seeking the 8 most popular/competitive sets of each character to apply to every tournament Wii U to streamline the custom character selection. I decided to be the one to post about it to the Ganondorf forum and basically copied and tweaked a template post from that thread for this purpose.

Please provide a set, an explanation of it, and any other comments you'd like to include.

Note: Sets dedicated to countering certain characters are more than welcome. Especially for characters who function differently, or poorly against certain characters who otherwise perform well under default specials. Gimmicky, glitchy, or combinations just otherwise worth mentioning are welcome as well.

If there are more than 8 sets posted, we will have a poll to determine their popularity. This is more about time constraints and not forcing too many people to upload their own customs, not just competitive viability.

Please use the number format for submitting sets, in Neutral Side Up Down order. For example:

• 1111 (Default specials)
• 2311 (Warlock Blade, Flame Wave with defaults)

 

[young grasshopper]

2121 (Warlock Blade, Flame Choke, Dark Uppercut, Wizard foot)

 

[Humanity]

The most popular ones seem to be 3121 (Thrust, Choke, Fists, Foot) and 3122 (Thrust, Choke, Fists, Dropkick). I personally like to mix up my side specials, so I have 3321 (Thrust, Chain, Fists, Foot) and 3322 (Thrust, Chain, Fists, Dropkick) saved as well. I don't personally use the second side special, but I could see it being used in counter-pick sets. I'll leave that to the judgement of others.

 

[Big O]

Personally, I think the largest differences are in side specials and up specials which have 2 notable options.

X12X

X32X

X13X

X33X

The tricky part is figuring out what we want to prioritize from there. I think WDF > WF, but there are some MU's where you might want WF. So far I think most will agree to the following as priority picks.

X122

X322

X132

X332

I also think we can all agree every single option for his neutral special sucks. Since WDK vs WF is the most impactful choice that remains, I propose these be his 8 slots

Combinations of Flame Choke, Flame Chain, Dark Fists, Dark Vault, Wizard's Foot, and Wizard's Drop Kick​

X121

X122

X131

X132

X321

X322

X331

X332

The neutral special picked honestly doesn't matter, but that could be put to a vote. I would vote for X = 3 (Warlock Thrust) just because no one will probably ever get hit by the other two.

 

[Humanity]

The Warlock thrust shotgun is really the only usable neutral special. I use it on all my sets, though I suppose "use" may be a bit of a strong word. Sometimes it helps.

 

[Xinc]

Personally I view each set as a "matchup counter/mitigator" for each character Ganon will face. Though I usually slap on Warlock Blade for the extra reach Ganon needs.

Also, am I the only one here who has no problem with the default up b?
Ex:
2313 (against Rosa)
2111 (just to improve Ganondorf a little bit)
2121 (lighter characters)

 

[HeavyLobster]

I agree that none of his custom B moves are great, but I do think a set with Warlock Blade + Dark Vault should be considered for matchups where the opponent has a predictable horizontal recovery, as that combination allows you to jump offstage, use Warlock Blade, and make it back to the stage. It's too much of a commitment to really be useful against most of the cast, but it could be useful for edgeguarding Bowser or someone like that.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

And here I thought Wizard Dropkick was considered the best custom ever. Funny what happens when you don't pay attention to how things evolve in the scene.

 

[Humanity]

Also, am I the only one here who has no problem with the default up b?

If you want your up-special to also be an attack, you should use Fists. If you want to maximize your recovery, use Vault. I'm simplifying it a bit, but using the standard up-special is essentially the indecisive route: you sacrifice effectiveness all around by trying to have your cake and eat it too.

That idiom seems off, but you get the idea. Maybe I'll think of a better one later.

 

[Toxicroaker]

Personally, I think the largest differences are in side specials and up specials which have 2 notable options.

X12X

X32X

X13X

X33X

The tricky part is figuring out what we want to prioritize from there. I think WDF > WF, but there are some MU's where you might want WF. So far I think most will agree to the following as priority picks.

X123

X323

X133

X333

I also think we can all agree every single option for his neutral special sucks. Since WDK vs WF is the most impactful choice that remains, I propose these be his 8 slots

Combinations of Flame Choke, Flame Chain, Dark Fists, Dark Vault, Wizard's Foot, and Wizard's Drop Kick​

X121

X123

X131

X133

X321

X323

X331

X333

The neutral special picked honestly doesn't matter, but that could be put to a vote. I would vote for X = 3 (Warlock Thrust) just because no one will probably ever get hit by the other two.

I fully support this list. I also vote for thrust as the neutral special.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

And here I thought Wizard Dropkick was considered the best custom ever. Funny what happens when you don't pay attention to how things evolve in the scene.

I think the drop kick is the best!
It's quick and goes over enemies attacks and projectiles. And it helps Ganon recover from anywhere.

My favorite set up is - 2122
But I'm gonna experiment with -3122

Warlock Blade helps a lot with spacing and is pretty scary for some oppenent forcing a reaction. And Dark Fists is a great finisher off the top and a good option out of shield and can KO OoS at relatively low percentages.

Regular Flame Chock is the best! Chain is ok and #2 (I forgot the name) seems underwhelming.

 

[Watulio]

Neutral - Blade (range for ganondorf)
Side - Regular flame choke
Up - Regular
Down - Drop kick (Great horizontal recovery plus mind games)

 

[Humanity]

We're gonna need that poll, I think.

 

[Daeyrat]

2122 or 2322

 

[Z1GMA]

I'm liking 1122.

Haven't really given nB2 & nB3 an honest try, though.

 

[WwwWario]

I feel I'm the only one actually liking Wizard's Assault and Flame Wave xD I use them a lot With Flame Wave, I used the following:

2212 (Having good range in his Neutral Special and the Dropkick to give him horizontal recovery, (which both are weaker variations than their normal form) I think it's cool to have the short, slow and powerful Flame Wave as the Side Special ^^

I also like using the Wizard's Assault with a speedy set:

3333 (yes xD The Thrust since it's fast, the Chain since I think it goes further and to just mix it up, the Up Special that goes the highest and the Wizard's Assault that doesn't slow down and goes further). I kinda like this set

 

[Lozjam]

Personally, I think the largest differences are in side specials and up specials which have 2 notable options.

X12X

X32X

X13X

X33X

The tricky part is figuring out what we want to prioritize from there. I think WDF > WF, but there are some MU's where you might want WF. So far I think most will agree to the following as priority picks.

X122

X322

X132

X332

I also think we can all agree every single option for his neutral special sucks. Since WDK vs WF is the most impactful choice that remains, I propose these be his 8 slots

Combinations of Flame Choke, Flame Chain, Dark Fists, Dark Vault, Wizard's Foot, and Wizard's Drop Kick​

X121

X122

X131

X132

X321

X322

X331

X332

The neutral special picked honestly doesn't matter, but that could be put to a vote. I would vote for X = 3 (Warlock Thrust) just because no one will probably ever get hit by the other two.

I fully agree with this, with the neutral special being Warlock Thrust.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It looks like the Ganon army is already hard at work conquering this project (and Hyrule) but still hasn't quite narrowed things down. To clarify what we're ultimately going to look for, we'll look for up to three critical sets that encapsulate Ganon's across the board best options and to fill any remaining slots up to six with supplemental sets that will be useful to Ganon in more specific match-ups, in teams, or just to Ganons who have less popular preferences. We're dropping from eight so 2222 and 3333 can be available to help players get familiar with every move in the game; in a future update to this project, that may be changed. I know the King of Evil has a very diverse set of interesting options so this may not be the easiest exercise for you guys to narrow things down, but I believe in you guys.

For what it may help, Thinkaman plays a ton of Ganon and prefers 2322 in most match-ups. That set seems to do a lot for Ganon's ability to move himself, project powerful hitboxes, and recover. I know there are a lot of other ways to look at this character and that ultimately you guys know more about Ganon than I do; I just thought that might help.

 

[Lozjam]

@ Amazing Ampharos
For your 3 critical sets, I think I know what it should be, as I mainly use 4 sets competitively, and give me all the options I need competitively.
Here are 3 I find the most useful and pivotal in his matchups:
2121. This uses the Warlock Sword, Flame Choke, Dark Fists, and Wizard Kick. This is basically the a powered up default Ganondorf, with 2 of his specials being so much than his originals but still having the same functions. I like this one a ton, and very useful for light and fast characters, being able to secure kills very easily.
2321: This is a set that replaces Flame Choke with Flame Chain. This gives Ganondorf a little bit more movement and increases his punish game more, but he still has the KO potential with Wizard Kick. This gives him more of an advantage against speedy characters like Sonic, and gives Ganondorf more combo potential in exchange for some KO power and mind games of flame choke.
2322: This uses the WDK, and is most useful against projectiles users and those who like to gimp you off the sides(like Shiek). Ganondorf exchanges his KO power and some of his aerial punish game for some versatility against projectiles and a better recovery. It helps the most against some of his most unfavorable matchups.
*note. Dark fists is easily the best up special for Ganondorf so that is why there is no variation there. Also Warlock sword also is the best of the bunch. It is outright better than Warlock punch with no question about it, and many of Ganon's regular moves do what Warlock Thrust does but better.
The other customs should also have Flame wave, as it is still a useful option to have . So here are a couple of the other sets.
2221
2223
And there should be a set for people who enjoy Wizard Vault for his recovery options, this is optimized by WDK so they work well together
2132.
Those are 6 really nice sets for Ganondorf, and I hope everyone agrees.
I would also like to note, that you are doing good work making this all happen. Custom moves are a pretty good service to Ganondorf, so if you ever want to experience the pure power of Ganondorf, don't hesitate to ask

 

[HeavyLobster]

To basically sum up what I see as the basic trade-offs Ganondorf has, I see him mainly choosing between Blade and Thrust for his B move, Choke vs. Chain for his Side B, Fists vs. Vault for his Up B, and Wizkick vs. Dropkick for his Down B. Other moves like Flame Wave still may be usable, but they're very niche compared to the above moves. Blade vs. Thrust seems to be the least significant tradeoff, as neither move is really very useful, while Fists vs. Vault seems to be the tradeoff most skewed in one side's favor.(Fists) Chain vs. Choke and Wizkick vs. Dropkick are both significant tradeoffs where both options are clearly helpful in certain situations and these options need to be available for his top custom builds. I do feel that X121 and X322 are probably his two best options, as Wizkick is good as a Choke followup, while the combination of Chain and Dropkick works well when it comes to improving Ganondorf's anti-projectile and recovery options. The question of how to work in Blade vs. Thrust personal preference, slight variants of the two base sets I mentioned, and niche sets featuring the likes of Dark Vault and Flame Wave seems tricky when you have a limited number of sets to choose from, as there are a lot of viable options that some people might want to choose from, but aren't really necessary for Ganon to be effective.

 

[Humanity]

To basically sum up what I see as the basic trade-offs Ganondorf has, I see him mainly choosing between Blade and Thrust for his B move, Choke vs. Chain for his Side B, Fists vs. Vault for his Up B, and Wizkick vs. Dropkick for his Down B. Other moves like Flame Wave still may be usable, but they're very niche compared to the above moves. Blade vs. Thrust seems to be the least significant tradeoff, as neither move is really very useful, while Fists vs. Vault seems to be the tradeoff most skewed in one side's favor.(Fists) Chain vs. Choke and Wizkick vs. Dropkick are both significant tradeoffs where both options are clearly helpful in certain situations and these options need to be available for his top custom builds. I do feel that X121 and X322 are probably his two best options, as Wizkick is good as a Choke followup, while the combination of Chain and Dropkick works well when it comes to improving Ganondorf's anti-projectile and recovery options. The question of how to work in Blade vs. Thrust personal preference, slight variants of the two base sets I mentioned, and niche sets featuring the likes of Dark Vault and Flame Wave seems tricky when you have a limited number of sets to choose from, as there are a lot of viable options that some people might want to choose from, but aren't really necessary for Ganon to be effective.

This is good. I support this. With X121 and X322 as the first four sets (2121, 3121, 2322, 3322) we should use the other two slots for the most useful combinations of the niche options. I... don't actually use most of the moves enough to say what those are, unfortunately.

 

[Z1GMA]

Shield Breaks happen from time to time in this game, and when you do get a Shield Break, you'll want a Reverse Warlock Punch.

Thrust is pretty cool Vs some characters after you've landed a Gerudo on them, since it covers a lot of options - even Tech-options.

Other than that I feel Thrust is a high risk low reward type of attack. It doesn't really do anything on hit.
Plz prove me I'm wrong.

 

[Lozjam]

Shield Breaks happen from time to time in this game, and when you do get a Shield Break, you'll want a Reverse Warlock Punch.

Thrust is pretty cool Vs some characters after you've landed a Gerudo on them, since it covers a lot of options - even Tech-options.

Other than that I feel Thrust is a high risk low reward type of attack. It doesn't really do anything on hit.
Plz prove me I'm wrong.

Reverse Warlock Sword pretty much has the same amount of knock back as the reverse Warlock punch, especially when it's tipped. Also, Warlock Sword also has a good use when edge guarding characters with predictable recoveries. The only thing that Warlock punch really does better on is damage. Even more so, if you didn't want to use warlock punch or sword during a shield break, Utilt, Fsmash, and USmash will still guarantee you a kill at around 50+%

 

[HeavyLobster]

Shield Breaks happen from time to time in this game, and when you do get a Shield Break, you'll want a Reverse Warlock Punch.

Thrust is pretty cool Vs some characters after you've landed a Gerudo on them, since it covers a lot of options - even Tech-options.

Other than that I feel Thrust is a high risk low reward type of attack. It doesn't really do anything on hit.
Plz prove me I'm wrong.

The thing is that Blade is how I get most of my shield breaks, and Ganon's other options are almost as good when it comes to capitalizing on them. I know shield breaks are rare against top players even in the most favorable of circumstances, but it's easier to get them by using Warlock Blade over Warlock Punch, and they're extremely rewarding for Ganondorf regardless.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

So many options here. As it is now, I only have one definite for the 3 best.

2322. It seems to be considered the most useful for every match up from what I've read and seen.

The only other two I have on my mind for best seems to be a mix up between X122 and X121, and I still have two left overs after that.

Still having trouble between deciding whether Thrust or Blade is better in many situations, but there seems to be a heavy preference for blade. So I'm not entirely sure.

 

[Humanity]

I really don't see how Blade can be useful in a competitive scenario. You'd be lucky to land it once in a blue moon, and you're asking to get punished the rest of the time. Thrust may not be the best move ever, but it's the best choice for that slot because you can actually use it.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I really don't see how Blade can be useful in a competitive scenario. You'd be lucky to land it once in a blue moon, and you're asking to get punished the rest of the time. Thrust may not be the best move ever, but it's the best choice for that slot because you can actually use it.

Blade is a bit like U-tilt in its uses, it's a very situational move that you can use near the edge, mostly to punish predictable horizontal recoveries. There are slightly different scenarios where you would use one over the other in a competitive situation, but both have their advantages. Thrust also has niche uses as its hitbox can be used to stuff certain approaches, but its high-risk, low-reward nature means that it's not something you'll want to use much either.

 

[popsofctown]

Would an X111 set be too much of a waste of space when that's unarguably Ganon's least relevant special slot? Open question

 

[HeavyLobster]

Would an X111 set be too much of a waste of space when that's unarguably Ganon's least relevant special slot? Open question

The problem with that is that if you're opening the door for special moves there isn't really much reason to stick with Dark Dive. X121 is pretty much the best option if you're looking for something as close to default Dorf as possible while avoiding outclassed options.

 

[Big O]

The way I see it, Warlock Blade is only good as a surprise move against someone who hasn't seen it before. It has too much startup to ever hit anyone who is even remotely alert.

I don't see how it'd work against even against the most predictable of recoveries. The hitboxes aren't that wide so you won't hit anything level with the ledge. I also can't see why you would use WB against a recovery that Utilt wouldn't be more effective against. Utilt kills very early, has a fat explosion hitting people at ledgesnap heights, and windboxes to mess with their spacing. If you jump offstage and WB, they still have an hour to respond accordingly.

For Warlock Punch to be useful, you have to break a shield at a % where fully charged Fsmash won't KO. I don't know if that's common enough for it to really be useful though.

Warlock Thrust is a usable move, despite it's crappy risk/reward. The other 2 just aren't usable imo.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Ehh... I'm seeing good arguments for both sides, but Blade seems to be the most preferable at this time. Thrust is fast, but that seems to really be it. Blade at least seems to have something more going for it; even if none of them are heavily better than the others.

The way I see it, the current top 3 might be from what I've read and seen:
2322
2122
2121

If there are no serious objections for now. I guess it then is time to think about the more obscure combinations.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Wherever any of us are on Ganondorf's customs, for the love of god, please have as many sets as possible with Wizard's Dropkick.

There are plenty of times where I'd play a non-custom match, wouldn't be able to recover simply because of Ganondorf's mediocre horizontal recovery, and thought "And this is where I'd use my Wizard's Dropkick, if I had one." It gives Ganondorf so many more recovery opportunities in being able to use both Wizard's Dropkick and an Up Special, as compared to merely an Up Special or Side Special on their own. Not to mention, it acts as a decent approach to many characters on-stage on Omega stages.

I'd dare even say that it's one of the best custom moves in the game for how much more it opens up for its character than without, period.

 

[Humanity]

Quoted is Ray_Kalm's write-up of his opinion on the custom moves from the discussion thread, since it's probably relevant.

After having tested his moves out quite a lot, my opinion on what his best custom moves are have changed. Though, remember, all of his custom moves have unique uses and each one may all be very useful for different match-ups, and even be switched around during the same match-ups if your opponent switches. The custom move which I find to be the worst is Wizard's Assault, in the air it has a straight downward hit which always spikes (seems good when used right at the ledge), but the move is just too slow and predictable both on the ground and in the air.

Forward B: Flame Wave is an underestimated move. I didn't think this before, but the move KOS. Yes, it KOS very early. The move starts up like a flame choke, but goes a smaller distance and has a bigger start-up time and more overall lag. It does 8% more damage than a normal flamechoke on the ground, and 5% more damage than an aerial flamechoke. I believe that in the competitive scene, Ganon's forward B customs will be the most interchangeable. All 3 of them have very good and useful uses.

Upwards B: Dark Fists seems to be the best here, but before I go into it, I want to mention that Dark Vault (two grabs special) seems kinda very good, but also kinda mehish. I say this because it gives Ganon another command grab along with his others, and has the ability to grab twice, it also goes higher in distance which can help Ganon in those positions which he'll usually not be able to recover back. Though the bad factor about the grab seem to out weigh the good. No uppercut, only 4% damage per grab (for Ganon standard, that's horrible), though the grab potential on stages with platforms is amazing the RCO lag and normal lag on stage if used is horrible. Now to Dark Fists. Dark Fists is amazing, it's a move that can scare the opponent into not messing with Ganon off stage, and it has the ability to setup kills even by taking a hit on stage! If you keep the normal wizard kick, flame wave, and warlock sword/punch along with this move, then nearly every move in Ganon's arsenal can kill.

Neutral B: Warlock Thrust. Yes. Warlock Thrust is probably his option. Warlock Thrust is probably the closest move to a projectile Ganon has. Underestimated, and in a quite decently fast paced game like Smash 4, you need faster moves. Warlock Thrust is like a very laggy flame-thrower, or more like a flame burst, but with darkness. It hits not only a good amount of range in front of you, it can hit opponents on platforms. Even then, I'd prefer this on stages with no platforms because of the disjointed 'projectile-like' range it has. The move won't ever kill though, it is good to use in unique situations (usually when your opponent is on a platform). This move can hit your opponent standing on the highest platform in Battlefield if you're standing on one of the two lower ones. The move has a different number of hitboxes, but all of which cancels if any other one hits. Damage ranges from 21% - 9% (reverse included). Warlock Sword is still not out of the box here, but I don't think a good player should get hit by that move at higher levels of play.

Downwards B: Wizard Kick default. I prefer this, and I also believe this to be Ganon's best down special. Wizard Drop Kick is amazing, don't get me wrong, and especially now when people don't know what to expect, but as the metagame develops the move will get more and more predictable, and the fact the it erases any early approach or 'fluke' options for Ganon is a horrible nerf for Ganon. I mentioned this elsewhere with a discussion with @Thinkaman, but I'll mention it again, Ganon's default kick also has intense kill power in a downward angle below him in the air, and this is hugely beneficial for a character like Ganon in so many ways.

 

[Toxicroaker]

I'm pretty sure 2321 is a given, being the only (common) side/down combination not covered.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'm going to have to change my opinion on Warlock Thrust and say that it probably should almost always be the B move of choice in 1v1s, except maybe for the obligatory Dark Vault set or against someone like RosaLuma or Villager where the ability to do high HP damage from a distance might be valuable. It does have uses for outspacing things Ganondorf normally can't, such as most of Shulk's moves and Dedede's F-tilt, and I'd probably take that in most MUs over Blade. The smaller blast zones on the Wii U version mean it actually can sometimes kill near the ledge below 150% on FD, even when not reversed.(Not that you'd want to try to kill with it over pretty much any of Ganondorf's other moves) I'm going to say in the matchups where you'd choose X121 Warlock Thrust would almost always be preferred while some matchups where you'd go X322 would have uses for Blade, such as RosaLuma, Villager, and PacMan. There might be others where you want X322 and the advantage you'd get from Thrust might warrant a separate set.(maybe Link or DHD) I'm going to say 3121, 3122, and 2322 should probably be the three main sets, and from there you'd probably have to choose from a 3321 set, a 3322 set, a Flame Wave set, and a Dark Vault set to get your six sets. I'd want the input of better players before anything's decided, though, as I'm not really high-level or anything.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Look fellas. I need you to come together to decide on the applications of Sword, Punch, and Thrust. I'm not a Ganon player, so I don't want to make too many judgement calls here that could prove fatal without significant input from you guys. No more X### posts. You have to pick a choice for the combinations and we can vote if there's a huge stalemate.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Look fellas. I need you to come together to decide on the applications of Sword, Punch, and Thrust. I'm not a Ganon player, so I don't want to make too many judgement calls here that could prove fatal without significant input from you guys. No more X### posts. You have to pick a choice for the combinations and we can vote if there's a huge stalemate.

There is no such thing as one single choice of customs.

Every pairing has different benefits, and there should always be switching against different matchups.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

There is no such thing as one single choice of customs.

Every pairing has different benefits, and there should always be switching against different matchups.

The thing is, the current limits of our system requires that we have a preferred pairing set for now. I'd rather not have this limit, but as AA says, the situation requires for a few pairings to be set in stone.

It looks like the Ganon army is already hard at work conquering this project (and Hyrule) but still hasn't quite narrowed things down. To clarify what we're ultimately going to look for, we'll look for up to three critical sets that encapsulate Ganon's across the board best options and to fill any remaining slots up to six with supplemental sets that will be useful to Ganon in more specific match-ups, in teams, or just to Ganons who have less popular preferences. We're dropping from eight so 2222 and 3333 can be available to help players get familiar with every move in the game; in a future update to this project, that may be changed. I know the King of Evil has a very diverse set of interesting options so this may not be the easiest exercise for you guys to narrow things down, but I believe in you guys.

Due to these current limits, we only have so little room for options. I mean; if you have a different suggestion, I'm all ears to make this better for everyone.

 

[Toxicroaker]

Punch: slow, laggy, short, and almost useless. No question, this is the worst of the three. Only useful for when you break someone's shield, and f-smash won't kill.
Blade: more range and quicker, but a bit weaker. Useful for edgeguarding, but nothing else.
Thrust: shorter range than blade, but even quicker and weaker. Useful for some situations, but the risk/reward is horrible.
I would say thrust. While the risk/reward is bad and forward/down tiilt already cover the speed, it covers a lot of space in front of you. Being able to hit people on a platform with it is pretty good, as well as stuffing some of the same recoveries as blade.

 

[Big O]

3121

3122

3131

3132

3322

3332

These are the 6 most useful sets imo. You won't be hitting anyone anytime soon with WP or WB, so I opt for Warlock Thrust in all sets.

It has the best WF set, the most well-rounded set, standard recovery sets with WF and WDK, the best Flame Chain set, and the most flexible recovery focused set.

I didn't include the 2 combinations of Flame Chain and WF because they have a lot of overlap on the ground. In the air they are pretty different, but I had to cut 2 so I felt this preserved the most unique combinations. If I had to replace one of these sets, it'd be 3131 with 3321.