Ganondorf

[GetBentSaggy]

I'm personally against this, but your thoughts on Ganondorf being able to transform into another version of himself (Windwaker, for example) that uses a sword (much faster, but lighter and less powerful)? Essentially, the Zelda->Shiek transformation, but for Ganondorf.

 

[Deleted member]

No better example would be Phantom Ganon's sword in Wind Waker. Link carries it with both hands, while Phantom Ganon can easily weild it with one arm.

Link was a scrawny ******. Piss poor example. By that logic, Ganondorf's twin swords in his fight are dual-handed swords, as I heavily doubt Link could hold one of them in one hand let alone dual wield them like Ganondorf.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well he can swing every weapon quite easily though. But now that I check again, he pretty much holds ALL enemy weapons with both hands. So yeah, bad example. But still...

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, he can swing his weapons easily because they were all ****** weapons for ****** hero.

 

[Diddy Kong]

That spear the Moblins use is like, 4 times his height though lol

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, he can swing his weapons easily because they were all ****** weapons for ****** hero.

10charstupidlimit.

 

[GetBentSaggy]

Yeah, he can swing his weapons easily because they were all ****** weapons for ****** hero.

... wat


10charlimit

 

[Diddy Kong]

I don't get it either.

 

[Dr. Krumm]

I recall hearing that Sakurai stated that he is planning to rework a lot of classic characters. This might mean new moves for both Falcon and Ganondorf, perhaps even for characters like Link, Mario, Luigi as well.

For me there's really one thing I want to see. The lightning bolts. It's a standard Ganondorf move, you've been playing Tennis with Ganon since A Link to the Past. Why Ganondorf can't throw his lightning bolts is beyond me...

 

[volbound1700]

Do you think they will give him a Demise Alternate Costume?

 

[lordvaati]

if they go as diverse with costumes as people want them to(like Biker Wario,Dr. Mario, Dark Link, etc.) then sure.....even if he does kinda remind me of Akuma.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It is quite coincidental how Demise looks similar to Akuma.

 

[volbound1700]

Dumb question but who is Akuma?

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Dumb question but who is Akuma?

Character from Street Fighter.

Further reading.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Dumb question but who is Akuma?

He's from the Street Fighter franchise. If you're still stumped, however, I'd suggest going to a different thread to ask.

 

[volbound1700]

Oh Ok, I use to play Street Fighter II at times, always was the Boxer. However, I owned Mortal Kombat and always preferred it over Street Fighter.

 

[LunchPolice]

Akuma looks similar to Demise? Check out Oni. They're pretty much the same guy.

Also it might be interesting if Ganondorf is given all new B moves in SSB4, and his side-B is moved to the grab button.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Don't think that'd be possible. Unless they do something totally different for grab attacks in this game...

 

[GetBentSaggy]

Grab attacks will be they same, and the won't shouldn't change them or implement them into B-moves.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Ganondorf should clone DK's moves instead.
That would be fun to watch at least.

 

[grizby2]

Ganondorf should clone DK's moves instead.
That would be fun to watch at least.

id say G&W's moveset would be the most entertaining. ganon + stop motion <3

i think ganon should be more traditional though. with magic and such.

 

[volbound1700]

As stupid as this sounds, the character that Ganon would have been best to clone as move-set wise would have been Zelda or maybe Lucario. Both use magical attacks which fit Ganon. I really hope he has a make over in this game.

 

[The Sword of Demise]

I kind of like what Ganondorf is now a man who strolls through a battle not because he lacks speed but because of his sheer enjoyment of the destruction he will soon bring.

 

[Neanderthal]

Ganondorf needs a support thread in the character discussion.
Being buried away in the Veterans section that no one visits does nothing to help his supporter base (for getting his own moveset).


As far as I'm concerned Ganondorf has never been in a Super Smash Brothers game. It's just a costume swap for C.Falcon that makes zero sense whatsoever according to his games.


There was only ever one occasion where he didn't use a weapon (sword/s or trident) to fight Link. On this occasion he still didn't use his fists and feet to fight... he used magic.
In no way you look at it would he ever be considered a hand to hand combat fighter.

As such, the newcomer (of sorts) I want most in SSB4 is Ganondorf with a sword and his own special moves from his games (need to be able to play tennis with his lightning bolts!... from what might be the most iconic boss fight in Nintendo history).

 

[Diddy Kong]

Tennis ball gimmick should ONLY work against Link's Master Sword though. I'm not to keen on that say, Peach can just do a butt attack against a bolt of Ganondorf's magic and reflect it back. It's indeed one of his more iconic moves. So if they could give him that as a neutral B, I'd be good. However, hope it'll be different to Mewtwo's Shadow Ball, Samus' Charge Shot and Lucario's Aura Sphere. Given these characters will also keep these moves.

And yes, wish we could actually have more Ganondorf discussion. But there's also the Zelda Characters Thread where you can discuss Ganondorf. It's one of the biggest threads, rivalling even the famous / notorious Fire Emblem thread. So that's good. Otherwise, I hope they'll include Ganondorf from the Wind Waker. As I believe the Zelda roster will be represented by characters from Skyward Sword (imo: Link, Zelda and Impa) and Wind Waker HD (Toon Link and Ganondorf, maybe Tetra or Toon Zelda?).

Still, Ganondorf being a hand to hand combat fighter is really weird indeed. Hope they'll give him a warp ability, similar to Meta Knight's for Down B, yet different. You know, like the way Ganon teleports in the 2D Zelda games. Maybe with a purple fire ring to for offensive purposes (think like Sheik's Vanish also). Side B can stay the same for all I care. In Brawl, I think it fitted Ganondorf well.

Up B can also stay like it is in Brawl, but maybe with a floating gimmick of sorts? At least with better recovery purposes. Ganon isn't supposed to die easily. Even when you think you've beaten him.

 

[Neanderthal]

Tennis ball gimmick should ONLY work against Link's Master Sword though. I'm not to keen on that say, Peach can just do a butt attack against a bolt of Ganondorf's magic and reflect it back. It's indeed one of his more iconic moves. So if they could give him that as a neutral B, I'd be good. However, hope it'll be different to Mewtwo's Shadow Ball, Samus' Charge Shot and Lucario's Aura Sphere. Given these characters will also keep these moves.

And yes, wish we could actually have more Ganondorf discussion. But there's also the Zelda Characters Thread where you can discuss Ganondorf. It's one of the biggest threads, rivalling even the famous / notorious Fire Emblem thread. So that's good. Otherwise, I hope they'll include Ganondorf from the Wind Waker. As I believe the Zelda roster will be represented by characters from Skyward Sword (imo: Link, Zelda and Impa) and Wind Waker HD (Toon Link and Ganondorf, maybe Tetra or Toon Zelda?).

Still, Ganondorf being a hand to hand combat fighter is really weird indeed. Hope they'll give him a warp ability, similar to Meta Knight's for Down B, yet different. You know, like the way Ganon teleports in the 2D Zelda games. Maybe with a purple fire ring to for offensive purposes (think like Sheik's Vanish also). Side B can stay the same for all I care. In Brawl, I think it fitted Ganondorf well.

Up B can also stay like it is in Brawl, but maybe with a floating gimmick of sorts? At least with better recovery purposes. Ganon isn't supposed to die easily. Even when you think you've beaten him.

Yeah I agree with everything and excellent idea for the down B.

Theres lots of good things you could use from the games for his side B though.

His Up B could stay similar but be changed to the animation where he leaps into the air in the Ocarina end game fight.
(An alternative might be spinning his trident above his head to fly like he did in..... four swords. Although picturing that seems a bit cheesy.)

The neutral B lightning bolt should be charged the same way it is in Ocarina. He gathers the electricity in his first above his head and then fists it down.

Could also work in some special moves from earlier games like his fire bats, spinning trident throw, teleport or pounding the ground with energy to stun nearby enemies.

Most everything else he uses a sword.

Side B could borrow from Demise (alt costume ala Wario, since they are in essence the same character) where he does a move similar to Ike's side B dash and sword swipe.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ganondorf needs a support thread in the character discussion.
Being buried away in the Veterans section that no one visits does nothing to help his supporter base (for getting his own moveset).

Ganondorf is classified as a veteran fighter, which is why his thread is in the Smash Veterans sub-forum.

 

[Neanderthal]

Ganondorf is classified as a veteran fighter, which is why his thread is in the Smash Veterans sub-forum.

Obviously, I'm just saying it's a disadvantage to his cause of building support for his new move set compared to other newcomers who get advertised all over the popular forum section.

Veterens is the dark eerie sewers of smashboards that most people are too creeped out to venture into

 

[The Black mage]

I'm personally against this, but your thoughts on Ganondorf being able to transform into another version of himself (Windwaker, for example) that uses a sword (much faster, but lighter and less powerful)? Essentially, the Zelda->Shiek transformation, but for Ganondorf.

If you are like ganondorf, then you have no need for swords.
Especialy awsome, large, dual wielded swords.

 

[LaniusShrike]

I feel like the main reason people actually want him to have a sword is that it would force him away from being a C.Falcon clone. At least in melee, hitting with him felt super satisfying and powerful. I would be ridiculously happy if they reverted the way he felt back in melee and then changed his special moves in a way befitting the king.

Pretty sure I've posted this before somewhere, but I still would like something like this as his specials moveset while, yes, still being a fist-fighting powerhouse.

Up B, Umbral Crawl
A shadow-themed move where he turns into a shadow and then can be moved. After a second or so, he reappears where the shadow was along with a damaging explosion.

Neutral B, Shadow Orb
A chargeable projectile that can't be stored- think something like Link's bow that gets stronger the longer you hold it. Difference being that the projectile also grows larger but travels slower. Automatically is fired once fully charged.

Side B, Grim Hold
Same as the current Side B flame choke, except while choking the victim on the ground you can choose to throw them in a chosen direction instead of the more damaging drop.

Down B, Phantom Post
A sword-wielding Phantom Ganon steps out of Ganondorf's shadow and stands there for a second before making a large swing and then disappearing.

 

[Deleted member]

Bringing an argument here for the sake of keeping it out of the Impa thread:

You're arguing with a straw man.
I never said anything to the effect of non video game media never being considered in move sets.

In fact above I said that they are occasionally considered despite precedence being given to the games.

When you try arguing that C. Falcon using the gun in the comic and not in the games makes using a gun for fighting "unreasonable" (since that's how you responded to my initial point about Falcon in counter to your point about Ganon), then you're saying that non-video game media doesn't matter regardless of whether that it your intentional argument or not.

Yep.
It's not really relevant to what I was saying. Maybe he should have a gun because of it? I don't really care.

You: "Ganondorf should have a sword because that's how he 'actually' fights."
Me: "C. Falcon should have a gun because that's how he 'actually' fights."
I'd have to say that's pretty relevant to the discussion. It's a counterpoint. Ever heard of one?

"A person, thing, or situation in which inconsistent elements are present."

Key word being inconsistent.
His moveset is inconsistent with his in-game fighting.

You fail to get that his in-game fighting is never consistent.
I mean did you even stop to think about this?
OoT: Flies in the air, shoots energy balls at you that you have to reflect back at him. Then goes into Ganon mode with two swords.
WW: Controls a puppet. Then fights you using dual wielding sword style.
TP: Possesses Zelda and shoots energy balls at you that you have to reflect back at him. Then goes into Ganon mode who charges at you like a mad beast. Then goes back into Ganondorf mode hits you with a single sword while on horseback. Then gets off his horse and fights you in a final duel with the single sword.

The only consistency is that there are two fights where he flies in the air and shoots energy balls at you that you have to reflect. Just having a sword in two games is not consistent, especially when you consider that the styles of fighting are completely different and that the only reason he even HAS a sword in TP was because it was used to execute him and it failed (as in, it's not his sword).
And then, OoT's swords don't count, as you want to exclude Ganon mode for some reason in your argument (possibly because that means Ganondorf/Ganon is most prominent with a trident, and you want to argue for him using a sword).

And then, the fact that Ganon and Ganondorf are the same character means that being a pig monster is more consistent than anything else, seeing as the only game with Ganon that there was no pig monster form at all was Wind Waker. But even then, there was an expy of it in Puppet Ganon. So for consistency's sake, we should have a pig Ganon with a trident instead of his humanoid state.

Sometimes I think you argue just for the sake of arguing Golden..... Another silly argument that you were under no obligation to continue where a simple dictionary lookup shows you to be wrong

(Although I can understand why you thought that was the meaning since it is the most common colloquial usage).

Sometimes I think you argue for the sake of arguing ManBear..... Another silly argument that you were under no obligation to continue where a simple analysis of what is consistent shows you to be wrong.

I'm sorry I can't understand what you're trying to say here. Could you please clarify?

The Triforce of Power grants its wielder "true power", consisting of near invulnerability, immense strength, and an unlimited source of mystical power.
His strength and magical prowess are often referred to in legend throughout the series when he is mentioned (such as Four Sword Adventures, where Ganondorf doesn't make a physical appearance (only the pig Ganon), yet legends speak of the Guerdo thief Ganondorf.

So punching someone in a cut scene overrules using a sword whenever you actually fight him physically?

Now look who's arguing a straw man.
I never said that it "overruled" anything. In fact, I never said that he shouldn't use a sword. Hell, I'd absolutely love it if he uses a sword like the non-canon one from Melee or a sword like Demise's (to reference how he came to be).
All I've been saying is that Ganondorf fighting hand-to-hand with magic-infused strikes makes sense (and gave examples where he has done things without a weapon) and that he doesn't need a sword to be stripped from the Captain Ganon stigma.
I mean, in most showdowns with Ganon/Ganondorf/Agahnim, there is typically magic involved. And his magic prowess, as said earlier, is part of what defines him within the series. So being a wizard-esque fighter arguably best represents him as a whole.

I don't remember Ganondorf combat fighting Link in an actual boss fight in Twilight. Unless you mean amidst using his sword? In that case ofcourse giving him some Ike style hits amongst sword moves is perfectly reasonable.

As long as his moves are derived from his games I'm happy

. Continuing to omit the largest part of his fighting style is ridiculous and I don't know why you're defending it.

Except that it isn't the largest part of his fighting style. And even if you continue to plug your ears to that with the whole "But Ganondorf fought with swords in boss fights the most" thing, that's still TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STYLES; Wind Waker's dual sword style focusing on speed, and Twilight Princess' single sword style focusing on power.
Neither is more prominent than the other; given that they have been used in the same amount of games (1).

It didn't mean it's okay to make Ike a hand to hand fighter just because he may have used his hands rarely and insignificantly and rarely in his games.
This argument is pitiful.

'Twould be less pitiful if you actually gave decent points.

(punching the ground isn't hand to hand combat)

I don't recall ever saying it was. Just that it was an example of his strength.

I couldn't agree more that part of the reason they must've initially saw it justifiable to put Ganondorf in as a hand to hand fighter was due to his physical fighting style in humanoid form being a blank canvas due to only fighting with magic so far (this is no longer the case).

For the record even with a semi-blank canvas I don't agree with their choice to go with hand to hand. A trident or his E3 sword would have made alot more sense at this point.
It's just unfortunate that they negligently rushed him in as a clone and didn't make it priority to fix in Brawl by which stage the sword was his humanoid forms' established weapon of choice.

There is so much wrong here, I don't know where to begin.
Let's see:
a) There is no "they". It was all Sakurai.
b) Ganondorf was added as a clone of Falcon in Melee not because of a "blank canvas", but because he matched Falcon's body frame and could be squeezed in as a last minute clone like the other 5. The only reason Ganondorf was chosen for this role was because of his popularity. Had that not be the case, someone else would have been added to clone Falcon (or a different character, really) while Ganondorf would not have been in at all.
c) Ganondorf was not a product of "rushing". He wasn't even going to be in Melee at all until Sakurai decided to add some clones to beef up the roster a bit due to EXTRA time after finishing up all the planned characters (i.e. the non-clones).
d) Ganondorf wasn't "fixed" in Brawl because Sakurai didn't want to completely alienate those who played as him in Melee. That being said, Smash 4 can easily correct this by adding Black Shadow to take over Ganondorf's cloned moves while Ganondorf gets a new set. That way, Ganondorf can be changed without alienating those who played as him before.
e) "Established weapon of choice" only applies to Wind Waker. The only reason he has a sword in TP is because it was the sword that failed to execute him.

(Your statement about him never using a sword before Melee isn't entirely true either. He has his E3 sword in his taunt afterall.)

I said he didn't have one in canon until after Melee. It helps to actually read what is being said.
No, swinging a sword in an animation demo did not magically make Ganondorf a swordsman in Zelda canon. (And before you try counterpointing that Falcon doesn't have a gun because he doesn't shoot one outside the comics, notice he has one in a holster on his right leg in every game he appears in.)

I also couldn't agree more that it could be something other than a sword. Like dusting off the ol' trident.
It really doesn't bother me.
What bothered me is keeping him as a combat fighter with zero moves resembling his games which you bizarrely tried to defend.
(although a sword would make the most sense since it's the only weapon he has used in humanoid form).

Zero moves, eh?
Remember when I talked about that rushing palm he used to kill one of the Sages? That was the basis of his Flame Choke.
His Forward Tilt in Brawl, commonly referred to as the "Sparta Kick"? That comes from his boss fight.
And I've read (but not actually seen yet) that if you take too long to break the sword clash in TP, he performs a move that resembles Brawl's version of Warlock Punch, which takes a chunk of health. (Wind Waker also has Ganondorf backhand Zelda in the boss fight, though it's kind of a stretch to compare that to Brawl's Warlock Punch other than both being backhanded strikes)
His elbowing Forward Smash was also used in TP, but without the dark magic Brawl gave it.
So to say none of his moves were seen in some form in the Zelda series is false. And just so you don't accuse me of "defending him not using a sword" again, I'm only correcting your statement about how none of his moves come from the games.

I like that bit of stretched logic about the triforce of power.
He wields the triforce of power... therefore he has strength... therefore combat fighting makes sense.
Power is not a synonym for physical strength in this case, nor does having strength mean he should be a combat fighter.

Except that it has been established that the Triforce of Power grants him immense strength alongside unlimited mystical power and near invulnerability. Seriously. Do your research before you post.

Congratulations on picking a fight with me for no reason where you assumed many things about what I thought which were wrong... and making a number of goofy statements in the process.

And congratulations to you for saying completely ignorant things and making assumptions about my argumentation, making you look like a tool once again.

EDIT: I really hate how quoting screws up now.

 

[LaniusShrike]

I feel like everyone should agree that Ganondorf deserves to have one of his specials be an energy orb. Having his neutral B be levitating into the air and charging an orb seems pretty much right on the money to me.

My thoughts weapon-wise, pros and cons...
FISTS
+ Feels extremely powerful connecting with a haymaker, which is a good thing for the Gerudo Lord, wielder of the triforce of Power.
+ Emphasizes that his real weapon is his overwhelming levels of dark magic.
+ Some of his more impressive shows of power and cruelty were with his bare hands... Leveling structures, destroying one of the Ancient Sages, backhanding children...
- Doesn't reflect his actual boss fights.
- Makes him seem less of a counterpart to Link, though I don't think that's super important.

ONE LARGE SWORD
+ Feels more powerful than two smaller swords; Ike feels pretty powerful when you hit, so would 1-sword Ganondorf.
+ Has had representation in recent games, especially if you consider Demise as being essentially Ganondorf.
+ Leaves a hand open for grabs/items.
- There are already a lot of single-sword users in Smash Bros, making stand out less. A big con, in my opinion.

TWO SMALLER SWORDS
+ No other character currently has twin blades. I actually personally think it's likely that Lloyd Irving from Namco's Tales of Symphonia series will get in, so perhaps another character will actually wield two swords.
- Only reflects one appearance.
- Only reflects an appearance in which it was toon Ganondorf who, let's be honest, feels like a different character.

TRIDENT
+ Super unique and different! Smash Bros doesn't even have a spear user, let alone a trident wielder.
+ More variety in special moves.
- Ganondorf himself never used a trident. It has always been the more bestial Ganon.

Did I miss any key pros/cons to the weapon options?

 

[FalKoopa]

I guess the I support the trident option.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

maybe for the 1-handed sword make it huge by that like cloud's size

 

[LaniusShrike]

Oh, I didn't realize until just now that the trident is an actual magical artifact that Ganondorf retrieved in the LoZ series! That makes it seem cooler in my mind.
http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Trident

As far as sword style, I'd prefer the Twilight Princess style were the blade widens near the end to make it almost like an Axe. Of course... that does just make him more like Ike.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/_...images/e/ee/Ganondorf_(Twilight_Princess).png

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think I'm gonna say Toon Ganondorf with one sword and magic.

Why?

Cause I want a staple moveset for Ganondorf now. And twinblades would need to be changed for the next game if Ganondorf doesn't use them. However, having one sword is much more likely to happen. Same with magic. Also, alternative costumes are much easier this way.

Sometimes I feel like a genius.

 

[FalKoopa]

It may sound a bit dumb, but how about making his sword inflict dark magic?

 

[LaniusShrike]

I do think it's unlikely that Toon Ganondorf would be the only Ganondorf in the game... I think they'd want to keep the three triforce wielders in the same style, and I don't think that'll be Toony. But yeah, the one-sword Gdorf would be able to have Demise as an alt-costume look more appropriate. I personally would actually be fine with alt-costumes not necessarily being placed on characters of the same series, though... If Demise got in as an alternate costume for someone like Ike, I would be pretty okay with it.

 

[Frostwraith]

It may sound a bit dumb, but how about making his sword inflict dark magic?

It's not unheard of. In fact, I like the idea of a magic sword.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I do think it's unlikely that Toon Ganondorf would be the only Ganondorf in the game... I think they'd want to keep the three triforce wielders in the same style, and I don't think that'll be Toony. But yeah, the one-sword Gdorf would be able to have Demise as an alt-costume look more appropriate. I personally would actually be fine with alt-costumes not necessarily being placed on characters of the same series, though... If Demise got in as an alternate costume for someone like Ike, I would be pretty okay with it.

I think it'll be Toony, cause Toony fits better with the Skyward Sword cast. And I doubt with everything I am able to doubt of that they'll ever use the Ocarina of Time or Twilight Princess cast again. The people who are seriously expecting this I cannot comprehend, and I refuse to acknowlegde that it's even a slightly likely possibility.