You guys need to stop basing all of your strats on perfection....this is a weakness that most of you smashers in Florida have....*Sighs* just some insight on both of your arguments...
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Ganon vs.
- Thread starter Thomas Tipman
- Start date
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JesusFreak
Smash Hero
While all this is well and good, you're missing the point. You can SHINE before he can grab you. You can shine out of an L cancel before all 11 frames have finished. Trust me, I know from experience. If the falco plays correctly, you can't sheild grab him. Now, obvciously people mess up sometimes, but that's irrelevant.
Thomas Tipman
Smash Champion
what you are saying makes no sense, how are you supposed to shine if your still laging from the l-cancel? i dont get how you come to that conclusion.
on an other subject, since you play DK (just guessing from you sig) how have you done against ganon's? ive seen ganon get destroyed insanly by DK have you had the pleasure to own ganon like that aswell?
TestRider
Smash Ace
OK...
Tipman, you CANNOT shield-grab Falco nor Fox if they L-cancel their move and shine right as it ends. I don't know if it's for the reason JesusFreak mentionned or if it's just because you are stunned a bit after blocking a move and can't grab right away, but somehow it just doesn't work. I can't explain it to you, you'd need to find a good Fox or Falco player and try it yourself.
Jigglypuff has hidden hitboxes and her air mobility gets her in and out of Ganons Rane fast enough. And if that wasnt enough, she has the rollout, and Ganon has a bad sidestep. Jigglypuffs Pound has more speed and about the same range as Ganon, but its faster so Jigs will hit first before ganons fair or bair hit. But they would trade hits alot. Jigs can also crouch under Ganons grabs, punches and smashes. And Ganon can get killed quite easily by upthrow and rest.
Yes, on paper it all seems nice and dandy. In action though, it doesn't work that easily. Ganondorf can keep a wall of shuffled fairs out, which Jiggly can't take head on. His back air and forward tilt also have no proper counters when spaced correctly. Jiggly's Pound is too predictable to be relied on and only proves useful through surprise. If you try to abuse its priority to take Ganon head on, he'll start anticipating and shield-grabbing it every time. In case you haven't noticed (which seems to be the case after reading your post), Pound is slow to come out. Sure, Jiggly can crouch pretty low, but considering she's usually airborne for most of the match, that's not something you're going to see often. And what would you do from there anyway, down tilt? Up throw + Rest does not work on Ganondorf, even at 0%. You obviously didn't even bother testing your stuff before posting it.
...and Rollout? Are you ****ing kidding me? And you were asking for Back Room access? On any stage beside Final Destination there's no point in using it, and even on Final D you can simply short-hop and intercept her with a down air as she comes by. Maybe a Wizard's Foot or Gerudo Dragon would work too, never tried it.
And tsetse, everyone ***** Ganon's recovery anyway, that does not make Jiggly a counter.
Tipman, you CANNOT shield-grab Falco nor Fox if they L-cancel their move and shine right as it ends. I don't know if it's for the reason JesusFreak mentionned or if it's just because you are stunned a bit after blocking a move and can't grab right away, but somehow it just doesn't work. I can't explain it to you, you'd need to find a good Fox or Falco player and try it yourself.
Jigglypuff has hidden hitboxes and her air mobility gets her in and out of Ganons Rane fast enough. And if that wasnt enough, she has the rollout, and Ganon has a bad sidestep. Jigglypuffs Pound has more speed and about the same range as Ganon, but its faster so Jigs will hit first before ganons fair or bair hit. But they would trade hits alot. Jigs can also crouch under Ganons grabs, punches and smashes. And Ganon can get killed quite easily by upthrow and rest.
Yes, on paper it all seems nice and dandy. In action though, it doesn't work that easily. Ganondorf can keep a wall of shuffled fairs out, which Jiggly can't take head on. His back air and forward tilt also have no proper counters when spaced correctly. Jiggly's Pound is too predictable to be relied on and only proves useful through surprise. If you try to abuse its priority to take Ganon head on, he'll start anticipating and shield-grabbing it every time. In case you haven't noticed (which seems to be the case after reading your post), Pound is slow to come out. Sure, Jiggly can crouch pretty low, but considering she's usually airborne for most of the match, that's not something you're going to see often. And what would you do from there anyway, down tilt? Up throw + Rest does not work on Ganondorf, even at 0%. You obviously didn't even bother testing your stuff before posting it.
...and Rollout? Are you ****ing kidding me? And you were asking for Back Room access? On any stage beside Final Destination there's no point in using it, and even on Final D you can simply short-hop and intercept her with a down air as she comes by. Maybe a Wizard's Foot or Gerudo Dragon would work too, never tried it.
And tsetse, everyone ***** Ganon's recovery anyway, that does not make Jiggly a counter.
Thomas Tipman
Smash Champion
as far as fox i would think you definetly cant to him cause WHOAH buddy got some quick moves. falco, im just gonna have to test it out, i doubt lag from blocking an attack would affect the sheild grab because from what ive experienced both chars lag especially the attacker. but i'll most definetly look into sheild grabbing falco.
as for jiggs problems persist but i usually win, considering she is mostly airborn through the match ganons power and reach keep her afar. when against jiggly i usually spam uair to maintain distance and a missplaced rest is always a KO.
JesusFreak
Smash Hero
Jiggly's Pound> Ganon's shffl'd fairs. And yeah I've had some success against Ganon as DK. Not all out ownage, but consistency at least.
Thomas Tipman
Smash Champion
jesus freak: how would you say ganon stands against dk?
TestRider
Smash Ace
Jiggly's Pound> Ganon's shffl'd fairs.
...did you even bother reading my post, or did I type that for nothing? See Ganon can keep those fairs going out all day long, while Jiggly's Pound is slow and, if blocked, leaves her extremely vulnerable. I've got a friend who's main is Ganon, and if I start spamming Pounds he simply shield-grabs me and follows with a down throw and some *** kicking. Pound is good when your foe is vulnerable, but you can't just throw them out as if they were fairs or forward tilts.
...did you even bother reading my post, or did I type that for nothing? See Ganon can keep those fairs going out all day long, while Jiggly's Pound is slow and, if blocked, leaves her extremely vulnerable. I've got a friend who's main is Ganon, and if I start spamming Pounds he simply shield-grabs me and follows with a down throw and some *** kicking. Pound is good when your foe is vulnerable, but you can't just throw them out as if they were fairs or forward tilts.
i think the two most difficult matchups for gannon are jiggly and falcon. jiggly has so much priority, and you can't really edge guard her. also, the forward air does not go through pound, back air or forward air. the only way to hit jiggly is to get over her or up air her from below, and with gannon's slow moving speed this is really difficult. now, i am talking about jiggly's who have good spacing, against one that just throws out attacks, gannon has the advantage. falcon is the other problem because he has speed and an excellent kill move, that combos gannon pretty easily.
i've played andy's DK over the weekend, and i went 3 and 3 against him. it's definitely a tough match, but they each have things to kill eachother.
i've played andy's DK over the weekend, and i went 3 and 3 against him. it's definitely a tough match, but they each have things to kill eachother.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
Well, now, Ganon cant shield grab in the air. And Jig will most likely use Pound in the air rather than on the ground, and pound is a faster move than Ganon's f-air, Jigs Pound has surprising range on her B> matching Ganon's f-air in range. A good Jig would do something I like to call "butterflying" moving back and forth with attack, her b-air mainly since she can recover from that move faster and still have time to move back and forth, plus the range of her b-air vs. Ganon's grab range beats Ganons grab range if spaced correctly, so Ganon cannot sheild grab Jig easy at all. Out of all my experience of being a smasher for about over a year, I have always seen Jigs win the majority of the matches against Ganondorf, I mean its practically like Kirby is sort of a Ganon counter. Jigs has more advantages over Ganondorf than Ganondorf has over Jigs with the information given by everyone.
Thomas Tipman
Smash Champion
ganon can KO jiggly with ease, if she gets caught in a combo she basically done for and has to be cautious through out that stock.she does have advantages on him but the range on ganons tilts keeps her from attacking and retereating without consiquences. but for the most part its not often i loose to jiggly. sometimes it gets close, and sometimes she wins, but i usually get game.
Listen Jiggs counters ganon...nuff said...
Rafa even admits that he sucks vs jiggs...and he is basically one of the top ganons...
Ganon looses to jiggs...it's to hard to hit...your to big of a target to get rested...
She can WOP you from the middle of the stage str8 off....
She is to small of a target to accurately hit....
Jiggs owns ganon...obviously you have never fought a good jiggs up to date...
Geo
Smash Ace
Jiggs is one of THE hardest characters to combo. How is Ganon gonna combo her? D throw to up air isn't enough.
I agree with Eddy on Falcon giving Ganon a hard time. Falcon can up throw chain him and finish its up with a knee then edgeguard. Ganon can kill Falcon pretty quick but Falcons hard enough to hit as it is. Everything Falcon has leads to a knee and Ganon is such a big target.
TestRider
Smash Ace
...I'm pretty sure Ganon's fair does hit through Jiggly's fair and bair, I'll have to test it out. The thing is, Jiggly's main way of dishing damage is by outranging opponents with repetitive back airs, moving out of the way between each to avoid retaliation. Against Ganon's immense reach, that proves ineffective. As for his two hardest matchups, Sheik definitely fits there.
Now for Calibur...
Well, now, Ganon cant shield grab in the air. And Jig will most likely use Pound in the air rather than on the ground, and pound is a faster move than Ganon's f-air, Jigs Pound has surprising range on her B> matching Ganon's f-air in range.
You don't seem to understand. Yes, Jiggly uses her Pound while jumping. That doesn't stop Ganon from shield-grabbing her if he's standing on the ground... I know Pound has great priority and range and what not, what I'm saying is it's easy to punish, unlike Ganon's fair which has little counter even if spammed.
A good Jig would do something I like to call "butterflying" moving back and forth with attack, her b-air mainly since she can recover from that move faster and still have time to move back and forth
That's called the Wall of Pain.
plus the range of her b-air vs. Ganon's grab range beats Ganons grab range if spaced correctly, so Ganon cannot sheild grab Jig easy at all.
I never said you could shield-grab her after a back air, I said her POUND was easily shield-grabbed.
Out of all my experience of being a smasher for about over a year, I have always seen Jigs win the majority of the matches against Ganondorf, I mean its practically like Kirby is sort of a Ganon counter. Jigs has more advantages over Ganondorf than Ganondorf has over Jigs with the information given by everyone.
Kirby is NOT a Ganon counter, crouching isn't gonna win you the match against any sort of decent Ganondorf player.
Stuff from Cloud.
Rafa even admits that he sucks vs jiggs...and he is basically one of the top ganons...
That doesn't mean anything. A player having issues against a certain character doesn't make it a counter...
She can WOP you from the middle of the stage str8 off...
Actually thanks to his weight, Ganon is one of the hardest characters to catch in a string of back airs. If he doesn't have enough damage on him the move won't lift him off his feet.
She is to small of a target to accurately hit....
Considering she's airborne all the time, that doesn't really matter. What makes her hard to hit is her mobility.
Jiggs owns ganon...obviously you have never fought a good jiggs up to date...
Ok, so now people who don't agree with you lack experience? And I thought I was close-minded...
From Nephilim :
Jiggs is one of THE hardest characters to combo. How is Ganon gonna combo her? D throw to up air isn't enough.
Like I said, at low damage Jiggly has a hard time avoiding the down air that follows. Ganon's throws, down tilt, down smash, down air and neutral air can all set Jiggly up for stuff.
Now for Calibur...
Well, now, Ganon cant shield grab in the air. And Jig will most likely use Pound in the air rather than on the ground, and pound is a faster move than Ganon's f-air, Jigs Pound has surprising range on her B> matching Ganon's f-air in range.
You don't seem to understand. Yes, Jiggly uses her Pound while jumping. That doesn't stop Ganon from shield-grabbing her if he's standing on the ground... I know Pound has great priority and range and what not, what I'm saying is it's easy to punish, unlike Ganon's fair which has little counter even if spammed.
A good Jig would do something I like to call "butterflying" moving back and forth with attack, her b-air mainly since she can recover from that move faster and still have time to move back and forth
That's called the Wall of Pain.
plus the range of her b-air vs. Ganon's grab range beats Ganons grab range if spaced correctly, so Ganon cannot sheild grab Jig easy at all.
I never said you could shield-grab her after a back air, I said her POUND was easily shield-grabbed.
Out of all my experience of being a smasher for about over a year, I have always seen Jigs win the majority of the matches against Ganondorf, I mean its practically like Kirby is sort of a Ganon counter. Jigs has more advantages over Ganondorf than Ganondorf has over Jigs with the information given by everyone.
Kirby is NOT a Ganon counter, crouching isn't gonna win you the match against any sort of decent Ganondorf player.
Stuff from Cloud.
Rafa even admits that he sucks vs jiggs...and he is basically one of the top ganons...
That doesn't mean anything. A player having issues against a certain character doesn't make it a counter...
She can WOP you from the middle of the stage str8 off...
Actually thanks to his weight, Ganon is one of the hardest characters to catch in a string of back airs. If he doesn't have enough damage on him the move won't lift him off his feet.
She is to small of a target to accurately hit....
Considering she's airborne all the time, that doesn't really matter. What makes her hard to hit is her mobility.
Jiggs owns ganon...obviously you have never fought a good jiggs up to date...
Ok, so now people who don't agree with you lack experience? And I thought I was close-minded...
From Nephilim :
Jiggs is one of THE hardest characters to combo. How is Ganon gonna combo her? D throw to up air isn't enough.
Like I said, at low damage Jiggly has a hard time avoiding the down air that follows. Ganon's throws, down tilt, down smash, down air and neutral air can all set Jiggly up for stuff.
Thomas Tipman
Smash Champion
i was thinking more on the lines of dair, uair. combo was probably the wrong word to use since it instils 37 hits in some peoples mind. falcon, yeah thats a fast mo... ive got spanked by him. though its easy to chain grab and combo him since he fast falls. i think he definetly has an advantage though as for jiggs, i get problems but never major ownage.
Tipman I'd think you would have to play against my Peach to get the full experience. Peach really does do a number to Ganon...
Thomas Tipman
Smash Champion
a friend of mine plays peach and she puts the hurt on him. i dont think its a hopless match against her but she has a medium advantage against him. the turnips dont help much when i face peach cause i catch almost all of them, rarely would one hit me. but her foward throw is good and her priority is wild. KO'ing her is either spiking her, sending her up, or catch her on her second jump and send her across the stage. this is mainly the problems i have with her especially her priority.
Well, I only know one Jiggs player around here, and my dorf is average. But from what I've seen, dorf's fair vs jigg's fair/bair, both get hit if both move are both out, but dorf has to start it earlier. If not, then the puff with a keen eye will mostly not attack right away.
Up+throw to rest on Ganondorf is the stupidest thing I've read since "e-Z Mac'
Basically, the only thing that makes Jiggs a tough fight for Ganon is their MAJOR difference in horizontal mobility. Basically, a rushing Ganon would move fast but not fast enough to counter a WoP puff, so Dorf has to balance attack and defense, and play in counter mode. Playing like a turtle won't help though, since a good puff will obviously wave in and out of the turtles attack.
Test, we should try Jiggs vs ganon. (me being ganon of course :/)
Up+throw to rest on Ganondorf is the stupidest thing I've read since "e-Z Mac'
Basically, the only thing that makes Jiggs a tough fight for Ganon is their MAJOR difference in horizontal mobility. Basically, a rushing Ganon would move fast but not fast enough to counter a WoP puff, so Dorf has to balance attack and defense, and play in counter mode. Playing like a turtle won't help though, since a good puff will obviously wave in and out of the turtles attack.
Test, we should try Jiggs vs ganon. (me being ganon of course :/)
TestRider
Smash Ace
Oh please... Kevin plays Ganon ALL THE ****ING TIME. I'm getting enough practice against the character already, thank you very much.
EDIT : And Ryoko... really most people seem to underestimate Ganon a great deal. According to what I've heard about Ganon's matchups so far, he's countered by Jigglypuff, Sheik, Falco, Captain Falcon, Fox, Peach, Samus, Link, Young Link, Donkey Kong, Kirby, Mario and Doctor Mario. Care to explain how a character can make it to high tier if everyone and their brother **** him?
EDIT : And Ryoko... really most people seem to underestimate Ganon a great deal. According to what I've heard about Ganon's matchups so far, he's countered by Jigglypuff, Sheik, Falco, Captain Falcon, Fox, Peach, Samus, Link, Young Link, Donkey Kong, Kirby, Mario and Doctor Mario. Care to explain how a character can make it to high tier if everyone and their brother **** him?
Titan44
Smash Apprentice
I don't see what all this Jiggs talk is about. The aerial mobility is nice, but good F-air spacing (jump backwards or whatever to zone) WILL keep her out. She might land a few hits here and there without getting nailed, but she'll either lose to the F-air or trade more often than not. Not a particularly good strat, since she probably won't be able to take more than like 4 solid hits. The things that balance this match out IMO are the probability of her totally ****** your recovery, and the rest "combos". Of course, if she misses a rest, she dies.
Samus isn't too bad. Projectiles are usually a big issue for Ganon, bt jabs eat missiles easily (you gotta duck headshots, though), and you probably won't take charge shots too often either. My biggest beefs here are her recovery and crouch canceling. Ganon's got some good edge-guarding options, but there's only so much you can do about recovery. CCed down smashes are gonna eat a LOT of your attacks, and there's not really a lot you can do about it. But if they get too smash happy, get to Thunder Droppin'
. I'd say it's either 5/5 or 6/4 Samus.
DK? WTF? Ganon is faster, stronger, and has about as much range. Plus he doesn't have a ****ty sheild >_>. DK's got some combos on Ganon (prolly goes both ways), but who doesn't...? Up+B on his recovery is either U-air bait or spike bait. I dunno what kinda success you're talking about, Matt. We'll see later, I guess.
Samus isn't too bad. Projectiles are usually a big issue for Ganon, bt jabs eat missiles easily (you gotta duck headshots, though), and you probably won't take charge shots too often either. My biggest beefs here are her recovery and crouch canceling. Ganon's got some good edge-guarding options, but there's only so much you can do about recovery. CCed down smashes are gonna eat a LOT of your attacks, and there's not really a lot you can do about it. But if they get too smash happy, get to Thunder Droppin'
. I'd say it's either 5/5 or 6/4 Samus.DK? WTF? Ganon is faster, stronger, and has about as much range. Plus he doesn't have a ****ty sheild >_>. DK's got some combos on Ganon (prolly goes both ways), but who doesn't...? Up+B on his recovery is either U-air bait or spike bait. I dunno what kinda success you're talking about, Matt. We'll see later, I guess.
Thomas Tipman
Smash Champion
i never played a good DK. the only DK ive played is if one of my friends wanted to try some one new so that doesnt even count. i htink it was on cj's site that i saw a dk cream ganon with some wild combos. its the only reason i brought it up.
JesusFreak
Smash Hero
Ganon vs Jiggly is actually pretty even. As Titan said if you space yourself well with f-airs, or really any of his airs then you pretty much go heads up with the puff. And who cares about comboing? You don't need to combo Jiggly as Ganon, he can kill her quicker than any other character.
And Terrel, you'll see about DK soon enough. Hopefully this weekend or sometime during Thanksgiving Break.
And Terrel, you'll see about DK soon enough.
Hopefully this weekend or sometime during Thanksgiving Break.
Thomas Tipman
Smash Champion
the chars that have the advantage on him have just that, the advantage. i play a link player about every weekend and i usually win. thought he has the advantage it doesnt mean ganon cant get around them he just has the projectiles on his side. kirby has no advantage (maybe on a novice ganon), im not sure if i or someone posted that but no kirby vs ganon = gum on ganons shoe. c.falcon has the advantage cause he's faster in almost every aspect of ganon, though ganon can and will beat him falcons just faster. so its not that hey ganon sucks and here are those chars that prove it, its just showing those who give ganon a hard time.
Ganon doesn´t have advantage over Ness. Ness wins in priority and aerial mobility with his 2nd jump. Ganon can get juggled pretty bad, he has little against Djc.d headbutts...
It´s an even matchup. Ganon still has the triforce of power so if he can interrupt Ness´s 2nd jump with say, fair, Ness is in big trouble!
There´s more to it but´s its quite even.
It´s an even matchup. Ganon still has the triforce of power so if he can interrupt Ness´s 2nd jump with say, fair, Ness is in big trouble!
There´s more to it but´s its quite even.
GanondorftheXXVI
Smash Journeyman
I think Ganon does have an advantage over Ness for the following reasons:
Range: This is the same reason Ganon can give trouble to the marios. Ganon can outrange many things with his f-air. Same for bair, uair, and some tilts, but fair's the main one being spammed. ness eventually has to go up to Ganon (or Ganon to ness, goes either way) and in close range combat, it's always scary to fight a fisting Ganon. With Shffls and sh's back fair, not to mention the other aerials, Ganon gives ness a dangerous game getting inside.
Priority wise, I dont see how ness beats ganon. At most I see them trading fairs, which is highly in favor of the G.
Aerial mobility is something I can't argue on though, Ness just owns in that field. But remember, Ganon's shieldgrabbing game is nothing so sneeze at and he can shield grab ness better than Ness can shield grab him (overall). And throws lead to Uair, and Ness might have a hard time coming down.
Ganon can get juggled fairly well, yes, but after a while he can DI and if ness is not careful he might end up eating an fair or dair instead of continuing his combo.
That's about it, I think. Don't get me wrong, I still think Ness is an awesome character... I just think it's a slightly uphil battle for him here.
Range: This is the same reason Ganon can give trouble to the marios. Ganon can outrange many things with his f-air. Same for bair, uair, and some tilts, but fair's the main one being spammed. ness eventually has to go up to Ganon (or Ganon to ness, goes either way) and in close range combat, it's always scary to fight a fisting Ganon. With Shffls and sh's back fair, not to mention the other aerials, Ganon gives ness a dangerous game getting inside.
Priority wise, I dont see how ness beats ganon. At most I see them trading fairs, which is highly in favor of the G.
Aerial mobility is something I can't argue on though, Ness just owns in that field. But remember, Ganon's shieldgrabbing game is nothing so sneeze at and he can shield grab ness better than Ness can shield grab him (overall). And throws lead to Uair, and Ness might have a hard time coming down.
Ganon can get juggled fairly well, yes, but after a while he can DI and if ness is not careful he might end up eating an fair or dair instead of continuing his combo.
That's about it, I think. Don't get me wrong, I still think Ness is an awesome character... I just think it's a slightly uphil battle for him here.
eww...It´s even. Ness doesn´t have too much trouble getting in ganons range even in ground because of his long sprintwavedash.
Ness´s utilt usually wins ganons dair in priority (!) which looks stupid but it´s true.
besides Ness is good against bigger characters. your mentioned statements are mostly corrrect but enough to give advantage.
ganon can grab him better because of the 1 frame advantage and better grab range but good Ness shouldn´t get shieldgrabbed, if he can Djc and L-cancel into d-tilts/dodge/somthing correctly
Ness´s utilt usually wins ganons dair in priority (!) which looks stupid but it´s true.
besides Ness is good against bigger characters. your mentioned statements are mostly corrrect but enough to give advantage.
ganon can grab him better because of the 1 frame advantage and better grab range but good Ness shouldn´t get shieldgrabbed, if he can Djc and L-cancel into d-tilts/dodge/somthing correctly
Thomas Tipman
Smash Champion
its not even. ganons air game is stronger than ness' and most of his airs out range ness. as for ground game ganon takes the cake aswell his dtilt has the range on ness while setting up an possible air. as for the ftilt and ntilt keep ness back and out of range to retalitate with most of his attacks. ness doesnt even out with ganon in the air or ground you could bring up the arguement of speed but ganons uair and nair keep him quick in the air and his ftilt and ntilt keep him quick on the ground (not saying he's faster than ness just stating he has some fast moves at his disposal). overall he seems to be more victrious vs ness than ness is vs him. as ganondorfXXVI said its an uphill battle for ness in this match up.
Well I´m assuming you don´t play Ness... Look it´s not all about power. It can get pretty frustrating if you don´t manage to land any hits... Ness isn´t exactly easy to combo if he has his 2nd jump left... And doesn´t have too much problem juggling chars like ganon.
*** for your mentioned tilts. they can be good at times but relying on dtilting or even ftilting is asking for a Djc.d step kick in the face.
As I said Ness doesn´t have advantage but I don´t think neither ganon has. Off course it´s nice to land those fairs and uairs but no matter how you L-cancel Ness can get in with no much effort.
This is where mind games comes in. Ganon can WD backwards after a fulljumpuair and A punch ness for combo time, for example.
from then on it can give ganon some nice combos...
That been said I recently picked up ganon because I was inspired by his raw power and suprisingly long WD.
This matchup is quite much about mindgames. ganon can´t just go shuffling fairs because that´s asking for Ness´s fair and same goes for Ness...
*** for your mentioned tilts. they can be good at times but relying on dtilting or even ftilting is asking for a Djc.d step kick in the face.
As I said Ness doesn´t have advantage but I don´t think neither ganon has. Off course it´s nice to land those fairs and uairs but no matter how you L-cancel Ness can get in with no much effort.
This is where mind games comes in. Ganon can WD backwards after a fulljumpuair and A punch ness for combo time, for example.
from then on it can give ganon some nice combos...
That been said I recently picked up ganon because I was inspired by his raw power and suprisingly long WD.
This matchup is quite much about mindgames. ganon can´t just go shuffling fairs because that´s asking for Ness´s fair and same goes for Ness...
Thomas Tipman
Smash Champion
Originally posted by VilNess
Well I´m assuming you don´t play Ness... Look it´s not all about power. It can get pretty frustrating if you don´t manage to land any hits...
Power isnt everything but it plays a role. and unless someone doesnt know how to play ganon landing hits wont be a problem
Off course it´s nice to land those fairs and uairs but no matter how you L-cancel Ness can get in with no much effort.
if ness gets caught with any of those airs he'll be knocked back to far to retalliate fast enough to get ganon. if ganon misses he shouldnt have to much problems retaliating unless he L-cancelled a dair
This matchup is quite much about mindgames. ganon can´t just go shuffling fairs because that´s asking for Ness´s fair and same goes for Ness...
no ganon ever goes just shffl fairs unless they're trying to finish a char. if any air were to be shffl alot it will usually be uair. ganons power and range on ness play a big role though many people would insist that power isnt everything and this can be true, it doesnt mean that it wont make a difference. when i play against ness i notice how far he's kept back alot of times in the match cause of ganons reach and out of the advantages ganon has on ness the reach IMO is what gets him beat.
Well I´m assuming you don´t play Ness... Look it´s not all about power. It can get pretty frustrating if you don´t manage to land any hits...
Power isnt everything but it plays a role. and unless someone doesnt know how to play ganon landing hits wont be a problem
Off course it´s nice to land those fairs and uairs but no matter how you L-cancel Ness can get in with no much effort.
if ness gets caught with any of those airs he'll be knocked back to far to retalliate fast enough to get ganon. if ganon misses he shouldnt have to much problems retaliating unless he L-cancelled a dair
This matchup is quite much about mindgames. ganon can´t just go shuffling fairs because that´s asking for Ness´s fair and same goes for Ness...
no ganon ever goes just shffl fairs unless they're trying to finish a char. if any air were to be shffl alot it will usually be uair. ganons power and range on ness play a big role though many people would insist that power isnt everything and this can be true, it doesnt mean that it wont make a difference. when i play against ness i notice how far he's kept back alot of times in the match cause of ganons reach and out of the advantages ganon has on ness the reach IMO is what gets him beat.
"when i play against ness i notice how far he's kept back alot of times in the match cause of ganons reach and out of the advantages ganon has on ness the reach IMO is what gets him beat."
see it´s getting into opinions...I havenodoubt that you can beat Ness´but same goes for me beating ganons... though I haven´t faced any good ones...
In Ness boards we believe this is even...
see it´s getting into opinions...I havenodoubt that you can beat Ness´but same goes for me beating ganons... though I haven´t faced any good ones...
In Ness boards we believe this is even...
Thomas Tipman
Smash Champion
it was my opinion that the range ganon has on ness is what ultimitly gains ganon the upper hand. some may say power is the main thing that keeps ganon up on ness but his reach is what i noticed has worked most. nothing was being opinionated besides which of the two main advantages ganon has on ness is more helpful. though the match up may seem some what even a good ganon would usually have the advantage.
Yes,as I said I´m aware of Ganons power and nice range... besides hes actually cool enough for me to use him.
It really comes to playimng styles too... This is very opinion too:
I´m sometimes very defensive and evade almost every attack when I want to, and dig deep for openings. THis is why Ness works for me: His excellent air AND ground mobility (great backroll and sharp WD) allows for good defensive punishment game.
I don´t doubt you being a good Ganon even though our different opinions. The thing is I´m quite used to playing against longrange people with some afterlag.. And I can find openins enough good.
You know it´s almost impossible to say 100% who has the advantage because players skills and styles are always different...
We could try using statistics of wins and losses of every tourney ganon vs. Ness match, but I see it rather silly. In the end the better player wins and in close skills the guy with better mindgames win. Ganon needs tricks to land his Strong moves, which all have some lag (the neutral A in ground is possibly exception but yuo get the point) and Ness needs tricks to out"mobilize" ganon and start mad juggling against him.
Do you understand my point why this is balanced? I hope so.
It really comes to playimng styles too... This is very opinion too:
I´m sometimes very defensive and evade almost every attack when I want to, and dig deep for openings. THis is why Ness works for me: His excellent air AND ground mobility (great backroll and sharp WD) allows for good defensive punishment game.
I don´t doubt you being a good Ganon even though our different opinions. The thing is I´m quite used to playing against longrange people with some afterlag.. And I can find openins enough good.
You know it´s almost impossible to say 100% who has the advantage because players skills and styles are always different...
We could try using statistics of wins and losses of every tourney ganon vs. Ness match, but I see it rather silly. In the end the better player wins and in close skills the guy with better mindgames win. Ganon needs tricks to land his Strong moves, which all have some lag (the neutral A in ground is possibly exception but yuo get the point) and Ness needs tricks to out"mobilize" ganon and start mad juggling against him.
Do you understand my point why this is balanced? I hope so.
Thomas Tipman
Smash Champion
You know it´s almost impossible to say 100% who has the advantage because players skills and styles are always different... yeah definetly but ganon has the overall advantage on ness. keep in mind we're trying to find who basically has the advantage and not strictly on who would win in a match up. for instance link has the advantage on ganon, but i can safely say i can and have ownd link. he does have the advantage but ganon can get around it. ness may find ways around ganons advantages but can still have a hard time, same with ganon vs link.
GanondorftheXXVI
Smash Journeyman
Whew... posted yesterday and you guys did so much discussion since then. A couple of things to add:
Range is probably the most important aspect when it comes to a character's innate mindgame ability. More range means you're more at ease and have more time to think. Take for example Marth. He has that huge range and people have to get around it. Marth, however rarely (if ever) has to get around his opponents range, it's easy for him to get inside with F-airs, grabs, etc. Not having to think about openings as much as his opponent allows marth more room for mind games. He can think more clearly, concentrate his mind games more and maybe even devise new ones. So this is just taking him as an example, but my point is, range is NOT a potential advantage like power (having to think about how you'll land the hits) or speed (having to learn how to control it to your advantage); it is not an exploitable advantage. It is an advantage that is JUST THERE, LAYED OUT FOR YOU. So, if we agree that this matchup (like any other, actually) is highly dependent on mindgames, we have to accept that for his range, Ganon has more ROOM for mindgames.
Now, I used Marth as an example, which can be misleading. The range advantage that Ganon has on Ness is not NEARLY as great as the advantage that Marth has over most characters. But it's there, so we cannot ignore it, and more importantly, the fact that it gives Ganon more SPACE for mind games. I apologize for stressing this point so much, but I think it's possible to get the wrong idea about the advantages of range (in general). It's not just "Oh, Ganon's F-air outranges Ness's F-tilt." It's the fact that it gives ganon more thinking space, which is, in high levels of play, IMO, the most important thing.
Whew... sorry about the range rant, I just feel is important.
So now about Ness...
VilNess, unless I'm misunderstanding you, you're saying that Ness's mindgames against Ganon are based on the concept of finding openings through range and punishing with high damage combos/juggles. Which I completely agree with. I have to agree as well with the fact that ftilt and dtilt are not going to do much for Ganon (neither is the utilt LOL). As far as ground game goes, Ness can keep more pressure of Ganon because of his mobility. He also has his very good dash attack. And let's face it, you're not going to use Ganon's wavedash very often, it's just too slow and I don't find it handy unless you know you're opponents pattern. In close combat, wavdash is something that has to come quick, so that you can react and use it for maneuvering. So I only see Ganon using it for combos. Gannon's biggest ground asset (other than grabs) is his A jab. Dead quick, and it can be used like a Fox/Falco shine in some cases. Ness is not going to get many dash grabs in if the Ganon knows his A punch. It helps Ganon's offensive as well as defensive game.
Ness could proabably juggle nicely of he's careful. Ganon's Uairs can juggle Ness, too, and get him clipped or something if the Ness Airdodges predictably or something. So let's call it roughly even in that area.
Finally, Ganon can kill Ness more easily, fair, bair, and uair give him a lot of options. Ness has bair, back throw, and possibly his bat. I think (but it's debatable) that Ganon's recovery is overall better than Ness, as he has his down b and usually a couple of nice options when recovering. And Ganon could take more hits.
To summarize, Ganon's main technical priorities (not the game term!) are to space correctly and L-cancel his aerials to avoid giving Ness openings. Ness's priorities are to look for openings and punish. Looking at the whole thing, it seems to me Ganon holds advantage, but I'll be interested to hear any other points on this matchup that you have to offer VilNess.
long post... hope it's worth something lol.
Range is probably the most important aspect when it comes to a character's innate mindgame ability. More range means you're more at ease and have more time to think. Take for example Marth. He has that huge range and people have to get around it. Marth, however rarely (if ever) has to get around his opponents range, it's easy for him to get inside with F-airs, grabs, etc. Not having to think about openings as much as his opponent allows marth more room for mind games. He can think more clearly, concentrate his mind games more and maybe even devise new ones. So this is just taking him as an example, but my point is, range is NOT a potential advantage like power (having to think about how you'll land the hits) or speed (having to learn how to control it to your advantage); it is not an exploitable advantage. It is an advantage that is JUST THERE, LAYED OUT FOR YOU. So, if we agree that this matchup (like any other, actually) is highly dependent on mindgames, we have to accept that for his range, Ganon has more ROOM for mindgames.
Now, I used Marth as an example, which can be misleading. The range advantage that Ganon has on Ness is not NEARLY as great as the advantage that Marth has over most characters. But it's there, so we cannot ignore it, and more importantly, the fact that it gives Ganon more SPACE for mind games. I apologize for stressing this point so much, but I think it's possible to get the wrong idea about the advantages of range (in general). It's not just "Oh, Ganon's F-air outranges Ness's F-tilt." It's the fact that it gives ganon more thinking space, which is, in high levels of play, IMO, the most important thing.
Whew... sorry about the range rant, I just feel is important.
So now about Ness...
VilNess, unless I'm misunderstanding you, you're saying that Ness's mindgames against Ganon are based on the concept of finding openings through range and punishing with high damage combos/juggles. Which I completely agree with. I have to agree as well with the fact that ftilt and dtilt are not going to do much for Ganon (neither is the utilt LOL). As far as ground game goes, Ness can keep more pressure of Ganon because of his mobility. He also has his very good dash attack. And let's face it, you're not going to use Ganon's wavedash very often, it's just too slow and I don't find it handy unless you know you're opponents pattern. In close combat, wavdash is something that has to come quick, so that you can react and use it for maneuvering. So I only see Ganon using it for combos. Gannon's biggest ground asset (other than grabs) is his A jab. Dead quick, and it can be used like a Fox/Falco shine in some cases. Ness is not going to get many dash grabs in if the Ganon knows his A punch. It helps Ganon's offensive as well as defensive game.
Ness could proabably juggle nicely of he's careful. Ganon's Uairs can juggle Ness, too, and get him clipped or something if the Ness Airdodges predictably or something. So let's call it roughly even in that area.
Finally, Ganon can kill Ness more easily, fair, bair, and uair give him a lot of options. Ness has bair, back throw, and possibly his bat. I think (but it's debatable) that Ganon's recovery is overall better than Ness, as he has his down b and usually a couple of nice options when recovering. And Ganon could take more hits.
To summarize, Ganon's main technical priorities (not the game term!) are to space correctly and L-cancel his aerials to avoid giving Ness openings. Ness's priorities are to look for openings and punish. Looking at the whole thing, it seems to me Ganon holds advantage, but I'll be interested to hear any other points on this matchup that you have to offer VilNess.
long post... hope it's worth something lol.
hmm.. nice post!
good thing you posted about range. '
You pretty much said quite much.. It´s just that good range doesn´t always beat good mobility.
I mean you don´t see fsmash spamming marth winning much fights, because whiffing gets punished.
Ness is especially good at punishing whiffed moves because of his ability to change direction in air quickly...
Gánon might have better recovery but in this matchup it´s most important to see who´s better at edgeguarding...
I still think this is even matchup but its´good to discuss startegies...
good thing you posted about range. '
You pretty much said quite much.. It´s just that good range doesn´t always beat good mobility.
I mean you don´t see fsmash spamming marth winning much fights, because whiffing gets punished.
Ness is especially good at punishing whiffed moves because of his ability to change direction in air quickly...
Gánon might have better recovery but in this matchup it´s most important to see who´s better at edgeguarding...
I still think this is even matchup but its´good to discuss startegies...
D
Deleted member
Guest
? I play all 3 of those characters and I have no problem beating the crap out of Ganondorf. Zelda is a bit tricky, but the other 2 I don't even need to try.
Titan44
Smash Apprentice
I don't think that Mewtwo even has a good match-up. I mean, I wouldn't say that it's unwinnable or anything, but I'm curious about how you'd fight that match.
Thomas Tipman
Smash Champion
when i was talking about range i didnt mean it in the sense that range is a main factor for anyone. chars like falon, fox, sheik, etc. have fast mobility therefore they can easily break through to the inside and attack. since ness isnt so fast you can take advantage of that and keep a good space apart and do some damage without the worry of getting rushed. if you missed an attack its possible to recover in time without much punishment from ness. i wasnt trying to point out range owns all i was just saying how it affects this match up.
maximuspita
Smash Ace
I after reading the posts about jigglypuff it gives me the impression that you've only seen a ganon that does only f-air. Personally against the best jiggs I play (and he's quite decent) I seldom use f-air but instead i go with n-air and u-air. These two moves usually hit before the pound if I react fast enough and have impressive range.
About other posts saying that ganon is too slow too react to {insert character} because he is to slow to react so he gets ***** like a japanese school in a tentacle fest makes me believe that you've got Ganon wrong. Its true that he is slow AND has a laggy jump but you got to work around it by setting to rhythm in the game. You should the other player react to your f-airs and whatever other poking moves you use (depends on the player) not the other way around. I usually mix up the f-airs with tilts and usually am on the person like white on rice.
Another thing that hasn't being discussed is the stage where you fight said character as it is well known that many matches are stage dependant. I read that jiggs owns ganon in DL64 but what about the stages that favor ganon. Against jiggs I like smaller stages where killing him is much easier such as Green Greens, FOD, Flatzone, etc. Pretty much any stage where an easy kill with Wall of Pain isn't an issue and killing jiggs isn't next to impossible such as DL64.
I have a question though, has anyone considered aproaching with b-air and could be strategically beneficial for ganon's game?
About other posts saying that ganon is too slow too react to {insert character} because he is to slow to react so he gets ***** like a japanese school in a tentacle fest makes me believe that you've got Ganon wrong. Its true that he is slow AND has a laggy jump but you got to work around it by setting to rhythm in the game. You should the other player react to your f-airs and whatever other poking moves you use (depends on the player) not the other way around. I usually mix up the f-airs with tilts and usually am on the person like white on rice.
Another thing that hasn't being discussed is the stage where you fight said character as it is well known that many matches are stage dependant. I read that jiggs owns ganon in DL64 but what about the stages that favor ganon. Against jiggs I like smaller stages where killing him is much easier such as Green Greens, FOD, Flatzone, etc. Pretty much any stage where an easy kill with Wall of Pain isn't an issue and killing jiggs isn't next to impossible such as DL64.
I have a question though, has anyone considered aproaching with b-air and could be strategically beneficial for ganon's game?
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