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Q&A Gameplay Q&A and General Discussion Thread

Nah

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Corrin, and zoners in general, are good at creating walls, that are virtually impassable. Now whether or not these characters do well depends on whether or not they're able to create the wall.
I would say that the concept now is that zoners beat boxers, boxers beat defensive(long range projectile heavy), and defensive beats zoners. Zoners beat boxers by zoning them out, and preventing them from getting in. Boxers close the gap between defensive and them, and defensive usually don't have good boxing options and are generally considered to be slow. Defensive beats zoners because they don't have to approach zoners, which nullifies the sobers concept of a wall.
Now, in a game as diverse as sm4sh, this won't always apply, as there are few just defensive and few just boxer.
In the current meta game, zoners are definitely good, but it heavily relies on the individuals ability to create a wall, and guess an opponents options to breach said wall. I would say zoners, are becoming far and few, being replaced by super defensive or super aggressive players.
Problem with that though is that many (top tiers) are not restricted to that triangle. Many of them are capable of playing as two parts of that triangle.

More though the reason why I think that zoning doesn't work is that the game is not designed for them to work. You can't put up a truly impenetrable wall when shield/roll/spotdodge are as good as they are, and the meta-relevant characters all tend to be highly mobile, making it even easier to break through their zone. And once you do, zoners are not equipped to handle it. They tend to be poor at landing, CQC, OoS, are laggy, etc, and so just get violated when someone makes it past their wall.

On a side note, am I wrong in thinking that Corrin is the heaviest of the midweights? Sure feels that way...
No, you're right about that. Corrin has a weight value of 98, same as Mario and Dr.Mario, the heaviest midweights: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight
 

McGyverAC

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Much as I hate saying this, Corrin is high tier, probably highest of high tier, but she isn't top tier. Not unless someone can provide a solid compelling argument as to how she is better than those above her in the tier list.

On a side note, am I wrong in thinking that Corrin is the heaviest of the midweights? Sure feels that way...
She weighs the same as mario. Or so I've heard
 

McGyverAC

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Problem with that though is that many (top tiers) are not restricted to that triangle. Many of them are capable of playing as two parts of that triangle.

More though the reason why I think that zoning doesn't work is that the game is not designed for them to work. You can't put up a truly impenetrable wall when shield/roll/spotdodge are as good as they are, and the meta-relevant characters all tend to be highly mobile, making it even easier to break through their zone. And once you do, zoners are not equipped to handle it. They tend to be poor at landing, CQC, OoS, are laggy, etc, and so just get violated when someone makes it past their wall.


No, you're right about that. Corrin has a weight value of 98, same as Mario and Dr.Mario, the heaviest midweights: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight
Regarding the zoners, you're right, though once again, the whole roll shield and spot dodge are all covered by good zoners. In addition, Corrin is a zoner and a bit of a boxer. Sword characters are weird like that, since technically they're more zoners than boxers. In the current meta game, zoners are good. I'm going along with the assumption that you haven't played against a really good zoner, but the whole wall thing is how they make you feel. Like there is literally no way to get around the wall.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
Is jab 1,2 to dtilt actually usable?
what, lol. Like, you probably shouldn't go for it 24/7, but it works for me 90% of the time. Seems harder to grab with good spacing (especially since the Jabs push them away).

Corrin only goes even if the player is good. If the player has an understanding of a long range and zoning match up, they can usually win against all the lower tier defensive and zoning characters that Corrin sometimes has a disadvantage against. A primary example being Luigi, who can wall you out with fairs and fireballs (mostly fireballs) which allows him to outzone Corrin. Corrin doesn't have a lot of zone breaking tools, due to her lack luster speed, so one would imagine she loses this match up, but if the player adapts, then they can work around the zone, which then makes the match up even, and in some cases, in Corrin's favor. Another example would be Samus. She can run away and charge and shoot projectiles all she wants, and unless we can get close to her, we lose the match up.
This odd MU thing comes from the fact that Corrin is a zoning character herself, and is very good at walling opponents out, but not so good at approaching in the neutral, though that to depends on individual player capacity. In other zoning and defensive MU, whether Corrin win's or loses is entirely up to the individual players abilities, since even among such a diverse cast of fighters, Corrin is particularly unique. It is for this reason that Corrin is likely considered lower on the tier list than she should be.

"Play against the character to understand its strengths, play the character to understand its weaknesses".
How the **** are you getting walled-out by Luigi. Just F-air.

These discussions are of theoretical nature as it is, and as such, it's assumed both players know their in's and out's. I might as well say we go even to Ganondorf because I get hit by Smash Attacks.


Nah Nah The easiest way of telling who's the best character is by the least amount of bad matchups you have. Even if I'm low-balling something like 5 " bad" matchups, that's easily within the Top 10 range. Rosalina has 5-6 bad (and actually bad, aka MK) MUs and she's an easy Top 5 for most people. The reason we don't have any real bad matchups is because we have tools for most situations.
 
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McGyverAC

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what, lol. Like, you probably shouldn't go for it 24/7, but it works for me 90% of the time. Seems harder to grab with good spacing (especially since the Jabs push them away).


How the **** are you getting walled-out by Luigi. Just F-air.

These discussions are of theoretical nature as it is, and as such, it's assumed both players know their in's and out's. I might as well say we go even to Ganondorf because I get hit by Smash Attacks.


Nah Nah The easiest way of telling who's the best character is by the least amount of bad matchups you have. Even if I'm low-balling something like 5 " bad" matchups, that's easily within the Top 10 range. Rosalina has 5-6 bad (and actually bad, aka MK) MUs and she's an easy Top 5 for most people. The reason we don't have any real bad matchups is because we have tools for most situations.
A good luigi covers aerial options with fireball. And it outranges fair
4e8e699c-01ed-473b-9b03-3cee8e7af04e.jpg


So you sometimes can't get in. Though keep in mind Corrin wins the MU. I'm just saying, theoretically, Luigi has the tools to keep Corrin out. That being said, I play against CPUs, who jump when you jump, and can basically cover all options because they can react to your movement.
 

Nah

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Nah Nah The easiest way of telling who's the best character is by the least amount of bad matchups you have. Even if I'm low-balling something like 5 " bad" matchups, that's easily within the Top 10 range. Rosalina has 5-6 bad (and actually bad, aka MK) MUs and she's an easy Top 5 for most people. The reason we don't have any real bad matchups is because we have tools for most situations.
Ya kinda gotta look at the degree to which a character wins and loses these MUs too.
 

tskidless

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Hello I just started playing Corrin and was wondering if there was a list of projectiles that Corrin's side special kick beats. Also besides Instant Pin is it worth mastering the other AT's like C-Bounce neutral special and the other side special AT's.
 

Nah

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Hello I just started playing Corrin and was wondering if there was a list of projectiles that Corrin's side special kick beats. Also besides Instant Pin is it worth mastering the other AT's like C-Bounce neutral special and the other side special AT's.
I don't think there's an actual list anywhere on site right now. It's not something I've extensively looked into myself, but I'm pretty sure it beats out most projectiles. The ones I'm aware of that it doesn't are:
:4lucario: Aura Sphere, at about greater than 100% worth of Aura
:4mewtwo: fully charged Shadow Ball
:4samus: fully charged Charge Shot
:4tlink::4link: bombs
:4robinf:Arcthunder+Thoron
:4palutena: Autoreticle (you can probably plow through one shot, but will get hit by the rest)

As well as transcendent projectiles like :4falco::4fox: lasers, :4sheik: needles, :4cloud: Limit Blade Beam, etc

Not sure how it interacts with stuff like :4megaman: Metal Blade or :4rob: Gyro tho
 

OceloT42

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I don't think there's an actual list anywhere on site right now. It's not something I've extensively looked into myself, but I'm pretty sure it beats out most projectiles. The ones I'm aware of that it doesn't are:
:4lucario: Aura Sphere, at about greater than 100% worth of Aura
:4mewtwo: fully charged Shadow Ball
:4samus: fully charged Charge Shot
:4tlink::4link: bombs
:4robinf:Arcthunder+Thoron
:4palutena: Autoreticle (you can probably plow through one shot, but will get hit by the rest)

As well as transcendent projectiles like :4falco::4fox: lasers, :4sheik: needles, :4cloud: Limit Blade Beam, etc

Not sure how it interacts with stuff like :4megaman: Metal Blade or :4rob: Gyro tho
Dammit Mewtwo, you purple Garfield.
I can certify that it knocks away Gyro
 
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D

Deleted member 189823

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I'm comin for everybody, ovo unruly. soon to be number one Melee
Do us all a favor, bro. I want some variety, other than the same 5 taking everything. Maybe I'll actually enjoy it, this time around.
 
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OceloT42

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Do us all a favor, bro. I want some variety, other than the same 5 taking everything. Maybe I'll actually enjoy it, this time around.
who are the five? I can only remember mew2king and hungrybox. Maybe leffen.
 

OceloT42

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I know Corrin doesn't have bad matchups but is he/she a bad matchup FOR any character?

And another thing, which is the worst matchup ever in Sm4sh?
 
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Nah

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I know Corrin doesn't have bad matchups but is he/she a bad matchup FOR any character?

And another thing, which is the worst matchup ever in Sm4sh?
Define "bad matchups"

But at the very least, Corrin has a fairly significant advantage vs like :4kirby::4drmario:, and probably:4feroy::4wario::4dedede: too. That's not to say that I think that these are the only characters Corrin has a favorable MU with, just the first few that came to my mind as "ok mate g'luck yer gonna really really need it" MUs.

Some of the MUs, as far as I'm aware, that are considered completely awful/bordering on unwinnable are like:

:4pacman: vs :4littlemac:
(pre-patch?) :4sheik::4bayonetta: vs :4ganondorf:
:4zss: vs fatties
:4littlemac: vs platforms

:rosalina:vs:4ness: was once put in this category but now is seen as less bad for Ness (but still kinda bad).
 
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OceloT42

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Define "bad matchups"

But at the very least, Corrin has a fairly significant advantage vs like :4kirby::4drmario:, and probably:4feroy::4wario::4dedede: too. That's not to say that I think that these are the only characters Corrin has a favorable MU with, just the first few that came to my mind as "ok mate g'luck yer gonna really really need it" MUs.

Some of the MUs, as far as I'm aware, that are considered completely awful/bordering on unwinnable are like:

:4pacman: vs :4littlemac:
(pre-patch?) :4sheik::4bayonetta: vs :4ganondorf:
:4zss: vs fatties
:4littlemac: vs platforms

:rosalina:vs:4ness: was once put in this category but now is seen as less bad for Ness (but still kinda bad).
I get it. It's the range disadvantage, right?
I was also thinking about slow characters, since it would be nigh impossible to punish IP unless he/she buttskids right in front of them. Like, say Ganondorf.

Why ZSS vs fatsos tho? And could you also explain RosaLuma vs Ness?
 
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Nah

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Why ZSS vs fatsos tho? And could you also explain RosaLuma vs Ness?
Fatties are supreme combo food, and ZSS has a very powerful advantage state (large size makes it easier to grab them and nail them with Flip Jump too), nevermind that ZSS is hella mobile while fatties are....not. Fatties are also the best for Boost Kick, since they'll never be able to fall out of it or shift themselves enough to try and live longer.

Most of what it was for Ness and Rosalina was basically how Gravitational Pull almost makes him unable to use PK Thunder for recovery, and Dair wrecks him hard iirc.
 

McGyverAC

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I know Corrin doesn't have bad matchups but is he/she a bad matchup FOR any character?

And another thing, which is the worst matchup ever in Sm4sh?
Sheik is a really ****ty Match Up for Corrin.
I played Void last night, as Corrin, I just wasn't even able to leave the ledge, I couldn't approach, I couldn't land safely. It was tough. I stood more of a chance with my very technical, but poorly developed, Sheik.
I'm pretty sure one of the worst MU is probably rosalina and villager vs Ness. Probably Rosa more than villager
 

PK Gaming

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Been a while since I posted here

Any new developments in Corrin's metagame?

I've mostly just been following Cosmos and picking up on some things I never bothered with, like occasionally onstage Bair to quickly move around in the air
 

OceloT42

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Few questions:
1) What is your definition of 'neutral game'? What makes a good neutral game?
2) Following your definition, why does Diddy possess one of the best neutral games?
3) Does Corrin have a good neutral game?
 

McGyverAC

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Few questions:
1) What is your definition of 'neutral game'? What makes a good neutral game?
2) Following your definition, why does Diddy possess one of the best neutral games?
3) Does Corrin have a good neutral game?
This video by Deku Tree was very informative to me, even if it wasn't specific to Corrin. He says there is more to come, so I suggest subscribing to his channel, even though it's mainly a youtube hub for Sheik meta, he still posts a few things about the meta of the game overall. And this dudes voice is just :snake:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QQUi67MLE8

To answer your other questions, Diddy is considered to have the best neutral because he has a large amount of safe moves that can combo into things. And he has banana, which allows him to control a certain space in front of him whenever he has it out, and he can just repeat neutral over and over again, though I personally don't think he has the best neutral, he definitely has one of the best.

As for Corrin, she possesses a very good, but straight forward neutral, at least according to most top players. To the community, Corrin's neutral is a 50-50 between getting pinned or grabbed. While Corrin's neutral has more depth to this, such as spacing fairs and nairs at max range to poke shield safely, as well as bair. The 50-50 is widely considered to be Corrin's main neutral game, and despite how linear it is, it's actually very strong. Oz is one of the only actual Corrin mains I've seen never use this neutral as often as most Corrin's would, and do as well as he does.
 
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D

Deleted member 189823

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I keep thinking it's a ****ty, underdeveloped model that only really work on dumb people. If you're sitting on your shield, just waiting to get grabbed, the problem is you, not Pin. People react, they adapt. What you seem to think is Corrin's strength is the very reason people think we're lucky to be Top 15- and I don't blame them.

Cosmos does really well by pretty much setting that example- But up to what point? Look at his matches against better-versed players.

Corrin's (actual) moveset is severely underrated AND underused. It's actually silly at how synergic it can be. And with that said, Corrin does work around a similar concept, but it's a crapton more flexible than spamming one move on a person's shield and expect them to stop shielding at some point (shield and possibly take 9% off a mediocre grab or take 18% sometimes? Why is this even a contest?). I barely even grab, but I also rarely ever feel the need to.

I space around with aerials- enough so they can't be punished, and try to punish their reaction (they can't sit in shield forever). And that reaction, is part of what you're looking for. Are they going to roll? Spotdodge? Jump? Etc. Pin could easily go in there, somewhere (I throw a few in there, but not enough so that I'm sabotaging a really powerful KO move at 100-120). Difference between this and Pin, is flexibility and momentum. If I Pin on someone's Shield, sure, I'm super safe. But where does that leave my stage control? Rinse and repeat, and factor someone that actually shields. Now, if I constantly zoning with aerials, I can keep doing it. I can keep doing it, until the other guy eventually crumbles to a reaction and I can punish that. Stuff like that suddenly makes MUs like Diddy, Sheik & Fox a lot easier (whom are among the characters that best punish Pin, "ironically"). "But Oz, do our ****ty 7% N-air and F-air even compete with Pin's monstrous 18-19%"?: Easy. Combos and actual consistency. Ideally, Corrin's aerials are never really a stray hit. We're talking at least 15% per hit (confirm) with the added bonus of actual spacing, mobility and overall flexibility that this Pin-based "neutral" lacks. I've done 20%+ on Zelda (a light floaty) off a rising F-air (arguably our best spacing tool). We've got insane 20%+ combos from 30-70%, then there's kill confirms (which, again, started by the neutrals people so neglect in stead of "the big hits"). Hell, I don't remember when's the last time I had to resort to killing at 140-150 out of a desperate U-Throw.

All in all, to summarise, Pin is insane, and there's such thing as too much of it. I think it's even better when you actually let it fall in it's place and not be the very pillar of your game.



I'm out.
 
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OceloT42

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I keep thinking it's a ****ty, underdeveloped model that only really work on dumb people. If you're sitting on your shield, just waiting to get grabbed, the problem is you, not Pin. People react, they adapt. What you seem to think is Corrin's strength is the very reason people think we're lucky to be Top 15- and I don't blame them.

Cosmos does really well by pretty much setting that example- But up to what point? Look at his matches against better-versed players.

Corrin's (actual) moveset is severely underrated AND underused. It's actually silly at how synergic it can be. And with that said, Corrin does work around a similar concept, but it's a crapton more flexible than spamming one move on a person's shield and expect them to stop shielding at some point (shield and possibly take 9% off a mediocre grab or take 18% sometimes? Why is this even a contest?). I barely even grab, but I also rarely ever feel the need to.

I space around with aerials- enough so they can't be punished, and try to punish their reaction (they can't sit in shield forever). And that reaction, is part of what you're looking for. Are they going to roll? Spotdodge? Jump? Etc. Pin could easily go in there, somewhere (I throw a few in there, but not enough so that I'm sabotaging a really powerful KO move at 100-120). Difference between this and Pin, is flexibility and momentum. If I Pin on someone's Shield, sure, I'm super safe. But where does that leave my stage control? Rinse and repeat, and factor someone that actually shields. Now, if I constantly zoning with aerials, I can keep doing it. I can keep doing it, until the other guy eventually crumbles to a reaction and I can punish that. Stuff like that suddenly makes MUs like Diddy, Sheik & Fox a lot easier (whom are among the characters that best punish Pin, "ironically"). "But Oz, do our ****ty 7% N-air and F-air even compete with Pin's monstrous 18-19%"?: Easy. Combos and actual consistency. Ideally, Corrin's aerials are never really a stray hit. We're talking at least 15% per hit (confirm) with the added bonus of actual spacing, mobility and overall flexibility that this Pin-based "neutral" lacks. I've done 20%+ on Zelda (a light floaty) off a rising F-air (arguably our best spacing tool). We've got insane 20%+ combos from 30-70%, then there's kill confirms (which, again, started by the neutrals people so neglect in stead of "the big hits"). Hell, I don't remember when's the last time I had to resort to killing at 140-150 out of a desperate U-Throw.

All in all, to summarise, Pin is insane, and there's such thing as too much of it. I think it's even better when you actually let it fall in it's place and not be the very pillar of your game.



I'm out.
Well said, bro. The Pin is a good move. And that's all it is. A good move. Corrin's whole moveset when utilized to its full potential is what makes him/her such a deadly character.
Heck, try getting in on a Corrin who really knows his/her spacing game. I'll give you a trophy.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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No, no, Pin is ****ing great- But when you know how to use it (aka, not your whole reliance on it). If you take a look at Ryo when he secondarily used Corrin, he pretty much saved it only for killing.
 
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