Game 1 and Counter-Pick Procedures For Custom Movesets

[B0NK]

Hello everyone. The purpose of this thread is to lay down a set procedure for TOs that are hosting tourneys with custom movesets. I believe custom movesets will be at the majority of tourneys, and any new TOs should have a basis of set procedure rules.

Without further ado, here is the set procedure accounting for custom movesets:

1. Players select their characters. Either player may elect to Double Blind.
2. Players select their custom moveset.
3. Use Stage Striking to determine the first stage.
4. The players play the first match of the set.
5. The winning player of the preceding match bans a stage.
6. The losing player of the preceding match picks a stage for the next match.
7. The winning player of the preceding match may choose to change their character.
8. The losing player of the preceding match may choose to change their character.
9. The winning player of the preceding match may choose to change their custom moveset.
10. The losing player of the preceding match may choose to change their custom moveset.
11. The next match is played.
12. Repeat steps 5 through 11 for all subsequent matches until the set is complete.

Double Blind: Either player may request that a double blind selection occur. In this situation, a 3rd party should be told, in secret, each of player’s choices for the first round. Both players are to then select their first round character, with the 3rd party validating that the character selected is the same as their word.

Shown below in spoiler tags is the procedure for WiFi tourneys. Due to the inability to have a 3rd party for a WiFi match and to see the opponent’s character and custom moveset selection online, the procedure is slightly different.

Spoiler

1. Use Stage Striking to determine the first stage.
2. Players select their character.
3. Players select their custom moveset.
4. The players play the first match of the set.
5. The winning player of the preceding match bans a stage.
6. The losing player of the preceding match picks a stage for the next match.
7. The winning player of the preceding match may choose to change their character.
8. The winning player of the preceding match announces the character they will use to the losing player of the preceding match.
9. The losing player of the preceding match may choose to change their character.
10. The losing player of the preceding match announces the character they will use to the winning player of the preceding match.
11. The winning and losing players of the preceding match may choose to change their custom moveset before the match begins.
(Note: Neither player has to announce the custom moveset they are using because it is time consuming to do so.)
12. The next match is played.
13. Repeat steps 5 through 12 for all subsequent matches until the set is complete.

For those interested in an even less Game 1 reliant set procedure, see the spoiler below:

Spoiler

1. Players select their characters. Either player may elect to Double Blind.
2. Players select their custom moveset.
3. Use Stage Striking to determine the first stage.
4. The players play the first match of the set.
5. The winning player of the preceding match bans a stage.
6. The losing player of the preceding match picks a stage for the next match.
7. Players select their characters using Double Blind selection.
8. The winning player of the preceding match may choose to change their custom moveset.
9. The losing player of the preceding match may choose to change their custom moveset.
10. The next match is played.
12. Repeat steps 5 through 10 for all subsequent matches until the set is complete.

So you may be wondering, why this should be the set procedure and if you may change the order of how things are counter-picked. While you are the TO and have the ultimate say on your own rules, the reasoning behind the order laid out above is explained below in spoiler tags.

Spoiler

Most of the procedure laid out above is the traditional order of events used in Smash Bros. tourneys for quite some time now. This includes allowing the winning player of the preceding match to change characters after the stage is selected. The ability to counterpick both the stage and character while the opponent is locked into a character is generally seen as too strong because some stages are traditionally an auto-lose for some characters. Therefore the winning player of the preceding match is traditionally allowed to switch after the stage choice so that they can play the losing player of the preceding match on more even ground while the losing player is still able to counterpick the opponents character choice.

In all fighting games, including smash, the losing player is allowed to counter-pick the winning player. The only flaw in allowing this is that it puts a greater importance on winning game 1, since the player who wins game 1 gets to counter-pick last. While there are alternative rulesets out there that try to take away the importance of winning game 1, they are not traditionally used. (If you are interested in reading about these rulesets, check out some of @ DeLux 's proposed rulesets he has tested).

In order to take away as much importance from game 1 as possible, the winning player is allowed to change their moveset after the losing player changes their character. The losing player still gets to act after the winning player, and may wait until the winning player has chosen their moveset before deciding on their own moveset. Taking away as much importance from game 1 allows the set to be decided more upon player skill, and less upon the act of counter-picking. See: Amazing Ampharos' post.

Now that the procedure has been laid out, feel free to discuss it below.

 

[Opana]

Sounds good, I'm excited for Custom Tourneys and this helps bolster this.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

While SF at times had tournaments in which you weren't able to counterpick enemy characters with another ultra if you won game one, I think most actual players agreed that was pretty dumb and that the game just worked better if you could absolutely unconditionally react to your opponent's character pick with your moveset particulars. This is even more true for smash movesets than for SF ultras; if my opponent switches from Duck Hunt to Marth, why should I be forced to keep my anti-projectile build? How is this promoting good and interesting gameplay? It just makes characters who use multiple builds relatively bad since they become really vulnerable to counterpicks. We also really don't want to make counterpicking advantages that big; the idea is that the counterpick should always lean in the previous loser's favor but should lean in that direction by the smallest magnitude possible. We also really, really want to avoid blindsides; if the loser unexpectedly switches characters to someone completely different, we want that to screw the winner as little as possible and not as much as possible. That is best accomplished by:

Stage stuff
Winner picks character
Loser picks character
Winner picks moveset
Loser picks moveset

(in reality winner and loser will probably input moveset simultaneously on 3ds)

Loser always gets to act after winner, but winner is not restricted in his ability to do stuff. Loser has the definitive procedural advantage here, but this advantage is as small as it can possibly be while guaranteeing it does lean to the loser.

I know it's easy to argue that losing a match should give you more of a chance, but think of the long term interests of the match loser. If you lose game one, do you really want counterpicks to be a huge advantage? You win game two, and then you face a big disadvantage yourself in game three and almost definitely lose the set 2-1. The whole idea behind playing a set instead of one game is because with three fair games you have a much better picture of who the better player is than with just one game. If you make counterpicking too big of an advantage such that among similarly skilled players whoever wins game one will always win the set, there is really no point in playing out those games in the first place and you might as well just play one game in the first place to save time.

 

[B0NK]

I feel it.

Editing the opening post.

EDIT: Finished editing.

 

[Raijinken]

I think it'd be important to have the stage banning and selection done entirely after the moveset and character options are done, as well. Never cared much for the winner being able to change characters after the loser picks their counterpick stage. It can rather harshly defeat the purpose of that sort of counterpick. Especially with custom moves further adjusting stage preferences (that is, if TOs will stop limiting us to 3-4 stages and adapt to some minor hazards).

 

[B0NK]

stuff

If you're talking about before game 1, I completely agree and that's how it's always been done. It's not done that way on WiFi because there's no way to reasonably enforce a double blind rule.

If you're talking about game 2 and on, the stage banning and selection is done first so that the winning player of the preceding match knows which character to select for that stage and doesn't get blind sided by a stage counterpick that counters the character he would be locked into.

The point of that is to reduce the reward for winning game 1 as much as possible. If we selected the stage after the winning player selects their character, then on the last game of set the player who lost game 1 will more likely lose the set from a stage that counters their character.

We encourage comebacks in this community, not try to reduce the chance of them happening. Having the stage selection come first allows the loser of game 1 to have more of a chance at coming back and winning the set.

 

[Gea]

I think it'd be important to have the stage banning and selection done entirely after the moveset and character options are done, as well. Never cared much for the winner being able to change characters after the loser picks their counterpick stage. It can rather harshly defeat the purpose of that sort of counterpick. Especially with custom moves further adjusting stage preferences (that is, if TOs will stop limiting us to 3-4 stages and adapt to some minor hazards).

If you can pull out a secondary and win on their counterpick, I see no reason why you shouldn't deserve win the set.

 

[Raijinken]

If you can pull out a secondary and win on their counterpick, I see no reason why you shouldn't deserve win the set.

Because the secondary may not have any sort of disadvantage on that counterpick. I suppose it's less of an issue when a lot of pro players have major proficiency gaps between their main and secondary, though.

 

[B0NK]

pls

 

[Fenrir VII]

So I kind of think we should just treat (character + custom moveset) as (character) in the current counterpick process, instead of adding another set of ordered steps in choosing custom moves to the whole counterpick process.

So the process would look like:
1. Players select their characters. Either player may elect to Double Blind.
2. Players select their custom moveset.
3. Use Stage Striking to determine the first stage.
4. The players play the first match of the set.
5. The winning player of the preceding match bans a stage.
6. The losing player of the preceding match picks a stage for the next match.
7. The winning player of the preceding match may choose to change their character and custom moveset.
8. The losing player of the preceding match may choose to change their character and custom moveset.
9. The next match is played.
10. Repeat steps 5 through 9 for all subsequent matches until the set is complete.

 

[B0NK]

Paraphrasing: Allow the losing player to counterpick both the winning players character and moveset

I thought so too, and it was originally written like that. But then Amazing Ampharos, pointed out to me how much of an advantage that gives the losing player. Too much advantage. The tl;dr of his post is that counterpicking should lean in the losing players favor, but not so much that winning Game 1 can ultimately decide the outcome of the match.

Also as pointed out before, in reality the winning and losing player will likely set-up their movesets simultaneously on 3DS, but the losing player has the option to wait for the winning player to lock in his moveset. Adding the extra step in a ruleset is more so for clarity, as it shouldn't add any extra time to the process.

 

[Jaxas]

I have a quick question; I'm reading over this while planning out the ruleset we'll be using at the Salem Smashfests this weekend, and overall I like it.

Do you have any particular reason why you selected to have both players select their custom moves prior to stage striking in game 1, however? Or was that just where it fell?

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Good rule set, but I'll be perfectly honest I don't think anyones gonna put the time to think of which move set of theirs counters the opponents rule set. I don't much value is added by having a loser pick their custom moves after the winner. but I guess that is ideally the best order. Custom moves will be used to counter characters more so than to counter other custom moves.

 

[san.]

Indeed, much value isn't added for the loser since few specials completely alter their most basic components, but it helps the winner. For example, one could choose a custom special that excels at reflecting projectiles, only to have the loser of the previous round switch to a character that doesn't use/rely on them. It gives the winner a little more choice than being forced into their most flexible specials rather than the most suitable.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Good rule set, but I'll be perfectly honest I don't think anyones gonna put the time to think of which move set of theirs counters the opponents rule set. I don't much value is added by having a loser pick their custom moves after the winner. but I guess that is ideally the best order. Custom moves will be used to counter characters more so than to counter other custom moves.

I agree that there's almost no real utility to counterpicking movesets (there might be an edge case), but on Wii U, it seems very likely that someone will have to go first just because of how the menu will work so we might as wel define the order now. The important point is definitely that you can always pick your moveset in reaction to the opponent's character, and from there, I think the best order if we must settle on a precise one is this.

 

[B0NK]

I have a quick question; I'm reading over this while planning out the ruleset we'll be using at the Salem Smashfests this weekend, and overall I like it.

Do you have any particular reason why you selected to have both players select their custom moves prior to stage striking in game 1, however? Or was that just where it fell?

Traditionally the stage selection has always came last for Game 1. The reason I believe this is good is because players can strike to the most neutral stage for the match up. I see custom moves as a part of the match up, so the moveset selection comes before the stage selection.

EDIT: @ EdreesesPieces I have nothing more to add to what San and Ampharos said. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[shapular]

Traditionally the stage selection has always came last for Game 1. The reason I believe this is good is because players can strike to the most neutral stage for the match up. I see custom moves as a part of the match up, so the moveset selection comes before the stage selection.

In my wifi tournament I'm running on Friday I have custom movesets after stage striking for game 1, but this is a good point too. I just think there might be some specials that are a lot less useful on certain stages, particularly recovery moves, but those can be avoided by striking well. I don't think it matters very much either way.

 

[B0NK]

In my wifi tournament I'm running on Friday I have custom movesets after stage striking for game 1, but this is a good point too. I just think there might be some specials that are a lot less useful on certain stages, particularly recovery moves, but those can be avoided by striking well. I don't think it matters very much either way.

Oh for wifi, it's traditionally the opposite lol. The main reason is that in wifi tourneys players don't usually announce the character and moveset their using on Game 1 since that is tedious to type. They just pick it and both players go into the match blind.

Like how will you tell if the person is lying about the character they will use? I guess if it's streamed and you're moderating it it's not a problem, but on ladders with little to no moderation it's best avoided by allowing the players to skip straight to stage selection. I assume this is why it was done this way on AiB, Smashboards Online Tourneys, and GameBattles.

I wrote up a wifi ruleset in the spoiler tag just under the offline ruleset. But feel free to run it the offline way for your wifi tourney if you think it's not too much of an inconvenience. I feel like the fact both players are going into the match blind means that it doesn't matter if stage selection comes first, but in an offline tourney it's impossible for the players to go into the match blind.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I agree that there's almost no real utility to counterpicking movesets (there might be an edge case), but on Wii U, it seems very likely that someone will have to go first just because of how the menu will work so we might as wel define the order now. The important point is definitely that you can always pick your moveset in reaction to the opponent's character, and from there, I think the best order if we must settle on a precise one is this.

Yeah, I'm in agreement with that!

 

[DeLux]

Why not just blind pick everything?

ie: Loser picks the stage, both player blind pick characters and customs

 

[B0NK]

Why not just blind pick everything?

ie: Loser picks the stage, both player blind pick characters and customs

I feel like blind picking customs is easy on 3DS but not on WiiU. Their is no good reason why we can't blind pick characters every game though. The only issue I see is that traditionally it hasn't been done that way so it will be difficult to get veteran TOs and players to adopt such a ruleset.

When I get a chance later today I'll edit your proposed ruleset into the OP. The more choices for new and old TOs the better.

One question for you though, why shouldn't the players be able to pick their customs after blind picking a character? Is bad luck in your moveset selection really a good show of player skill? Do stages really change custom choices so much that your custom choice should be based solely on the stage counterpicked? Yeah I know that was more than one question, sorry. The mobile website doesn't seem to allow me to edit that without deleting this paragraph first.

 

[DeLux]

Is selecting a good move (set) in the appropriate situation a matter of luck or skill?

 

[B0NK]

Is selecting a good move (set) in the appropriate situation a matter of luck or skill?

Based on the solely stage? I feel like it's as skilled based as rock, paper, and scissors which doesn't have consistent results. When there's moves solely used for certain match ups (Whether to counter projectiles, kill easier, or approach easier), it's a best reflection of the player's skilled if they're playing the optimal set for the match up.

 

[S2]

I like this setup for the most part. It injects the picking of customs into the current picking setup used for Melee and Brawl. This is how I'd like to see tournament rules set for picking.

On a side note, Smash is one of the few fighting games that even allows the winner to change characters. I'm not saying we should change to that, it's just an observation about how stage selection in this game influenced a tournament standard different than other fighters.

 

[popsofctown]

the idea is that the counterpick should always lean in the previous loser's favor but should lean in that direction by the smallest magnitude possible.

Why not blind pick all three games then, as DeLux said? The loser would have an advantage due to stage pick, and he would have the smallest magnitude of advantage possible.

I agree that the next game should lean in the previous loser's favor by the smallest magnitude possible (I count zero as a magnitude, others may not), but the status quo doesn't seem to reflect that philosophy.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Why not blind pick all three games then, as DeLux said? The loser would have an advantage due to stage pick, and he would have the smallest magnitude of advantage possible.

I agree that the next game should lean in the previous loser's favor by the smallest magnitude possible (I count zero as a magnitude, others may not), but the status quo doesn't seem to reflect that philosophy.

It's about time pretty much. On 3DS this won't be a problem since you can both do stuff at once, but on Wii U, one of you is going to have to go before the other while looking at what the other is doing. Organizing blind picks requires either bringing in a third party to keep track of secret selections or writing stuff down. Just counterpicking is a lot faster, and I'm of the belief that knowing your opponent's moveset choices when making your own is a very trivial advantage such that the amount of time saved for not having to potentially invoke more blind picks is well worth the really, really small difference in outcome.

 

[Thinkaman]

We'll do the same thing we do for characters in neutral: Blind-pick upon request, which almost no one will ever actually do.

For counter-picks, why not let them counterpick customs? I mean, on WiiU, they have to go in SOME order...

 

[popsofctown]

It's about time pretty much. On 3DS this won't be a problem since you can both do stuff at once, but on Wii U, one of you is going to have to go before the other while looking at what the other is doing. Organizing blind picks requires either bringing in a third party to keep track of secret selections or writing stuff down. Just counterpicking is a lot faster, and I'm of the belief that knowing your opponent's moveset choices when making your own is a very trivial advantage such that the amount of time saved for not having to potentially invoke more blind picks is well worth the really, really small difference in outcome.

Oh, maybe I'm not talking about the same thing as Delux, but I was talking about blind picking characters all 3 games, unlikestatus quo. Character counterpicking isn't such a trivial advantage, yet contrary to your philosophy it is given to the loser even though it needn't be. It's not as much as a time sink as custom moves either. Usually if I plan on invoking blind pick at a tourney I just bring some playing cards with my characters written on the face side so all I have to do is place it face down and ask for a verbal selection.

 

[DeLux]

@ popsofctown You and I are on the same page.

 

[B0NK]

yeah?