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From Brawl to Super Smash Brothers Wii U - The Differences

ECHOnce

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Thnx,
i know what DI is, i just thought that smash DI was something more specific...
so there is no DI at all in the new smash game?
That is so weird...
SDI is a separate mechanic from regular DI. There is DI in SSB4, albeit to a much lesser degree than in previous games. The general consensus is that SDI is completely missing. At E3, however, PPMD (one of Melee's Big 5)bsaid he felt he could SDI a little bit if he tried really hard, but even if it does exist, such minor SDI will be negligible.

People should remember that this was a demo though; SDI and stronger DI may very well be planned for or added to the finished product. For all we know, they could have already been added, but were removed for the demo due to being glitchy.
 

PyroTakun

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So they're nerfing projectiles and giving everyone a better close-combat game?

I think I'm ok with this.
 

Claire Diviner

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Let's all remember something: Should the game have flaws that make the competitive (and even some casuals) frown, there is always the prospect of patches and updates, allowing them to tweak certain characters and/or mechanics to better balance the game for the better.
 

Primeval Weasil

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Apr 22, 2014
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Smash-DI is something more specific, as I linked above:

It's not the same as DI. SDI was minimal or missing in the demo, but some people said that DI was in (it's hard to tell though).
DI would never be taken out. I don't think even Sakurai would force a fixed path after being hit. :p
 

KenboCalrissian

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I'm really digging on this guy's dismissal of Sonic. From the little bit I played, Sonic feels way better than both his Brawl and P:M variants. Maybe that's because I've always felt like he was meant to be a great aerial chaser, and if my expectations didn't fall in line with that before they definitely do now.
 
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Man Li Gi

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SDI is a separate mechanic from regular DI. There is DI in SSB4, albeit to a much lesser degree than in previous games. The general consensus is that SDI is completely missing. At E3, however, PPMD (one of Melee's Big 5)bsaid he felt he could SDI a little bit if he tried really hard, but even if it does exist, such minor SDI will be negligible.

People should remember that this was a demo though; SDI and stronger DI may very well be planned for or added to the finished product. For all we know, they could have already been added, but were removed for the demo due to being glitchy.
DI was only the frame after getting hit in 64 and SDI exists in 64 as it's possible (yet much harder) to get out of the drill kick attacks and other multi hitting attacks.
 

BJN39

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The Characters

Zelda: In Brawl, Zelda wasn't considered a particularly strong character. Unfortunately, I don't think much has changed; she feels a bit weak compared to the other characters. Zelda even appears to have lost some power in the transition to Smash Wii U. Zelda's Smashes are weaker overall and have less shield stun and priority, and her trademark kicks are less punishing than before. She has a new down B that is very unexplored, and her ground game is quite different. With time, experienced players may be able to find new strategies and unlock her hidden potential. But when I used her, I really struggled, and many others did as well.
This (bolded/italic) statement is kind of untrue. Yes, Usmash, and Dsmash have slightly less range, but the power should be the same, and I don't even know if he understands priority. Fsmash and Usmash are still transcending, which is THE HIGHEST priority. I think what threw him was the slightly smaller range. (Which seems to be fair, considering Dsmash and Usmash had un-matching to the visual, and unrealistic range in Brawl.) People very often confuse priority with hit-box range. This was a big thing for Falcon's transition to Brawl, where his attacks did roughly the same damage (Which is part of priority.) but the hit-boxes were significantly smaller.
Now, the aforementioned Smash attacks have NOT had their priority changed at ALL (If anything, they got better "priority" with their 1% more each of them can do.)

tl;dr, Range isn't the same as priority. Don't immediately think "It's priority got worse." If you can't spam it on someone as well as before.

Also, Kicks are just as powerful as Brawl's, but no worse. They still KO at around 80% average. (Just like Brawl.)

So yeah, don't take all of his Zelda info as fact at all. She has already gotten many changes that very likely went un-explored by the invitational players. Much has changed.
She's definitely an example of a character that needs further testing of these new perks before we can say for sure on how 'weak' she is.

Don't hold your breath on a high tier placement, though.
 
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Unbias

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ganondorf top tier thank me later guys.
 

infomon

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Since Fox Sonic and Marth are my mains im not feeling so good about this new game and if sonic doesn't get a buff soon im not going to play it competitively as I did super good with him in brawl.
Dude, the smash4-Sonic boards are generally of the impression that Sonic is looking crazy-good in this game.
 

Delzethin

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I have to admit, I'm impressed by how constructive the comments have been overall. Has the vocal minority died down? Is it because news spread that the devs are listening to feedback from the E3 demos, meaning any issues (unusually high landing lag, etc) they hadn't already addressed in the current build will get looked at?

Or is it because more people are starting to realize these games don't need to be Melee to be viable competitively, that they can stand on their own merits?
 

Ryan.

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Ugh poor Zelda. :/

Zero Suit Samus seems the most improved to me. Bowser and Pit being close seconds.
 

Mera Mera

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Thnx,
i know what DI is, i just thought that smash DI was something more specific...
so there is no DI at all in the new smash game?
That is so weird...
Smash DI is something different. He was mistaken. Smash DI is when you smash the joy stick or c-stick (either works, many use c-stick to avoid having it affect DI) during the hit, to move you a set distance before launching. Automatic smash DI is similar but you can just hold the stick, and the c-stick will take priority if you hold both sticks (again allowing you to DI one way and automatic Smash DI another way). Automatic smash DI only moves you once at the end of each hit and moves you less far than smash DI, but it is the main reason multihits are affected by the mechanic since it's so easy perform (just hold away). Smash DI is technically more effective though, and can technically be done multiple times per hit (thought this bit is unrealistic in most cases, except of when using dual stick Smash DI in Brawl/PM).
 

extremechiton

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finally kirbys up throw kills reliably! that move looks so devastating, its about time it really is.
 

Senario

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I have to admit, I'm impressed by how constructive the comments have been overall. Has the vocal minority died down? Is it because news spread that the devs are listening to feedback from the E3 demos, meaning any issues (unusually high landing lag, etc) they hadn't already addressed in the current build will get looked at?

Or is it because more people are starting to realize these games don't need to be Melee to be viable competitively, that they can stand on their own merits?
No, we just have always known nintendo is listening. So it is a toss up between the game being competitive and the game just being meh competitively. We just don't feel it is important to analyze the characters move set as of right now since the base mechanics are what needs work. And nobody is asking for exactly like melee and it isn't a vocal minority. There are a ton of people who play competitively who would like to be heard. The vast majority of people who play basketball didn't really care or need the 3 point line moved farther. But the small amount of people at the top felt it was necessary. Using the "oh it is only a minority so we don't need to do anything. argument is tired and illegitimate. It is even less so in competitive games nowadays where many devs listen to player feedback.
 

proxibomb

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No, what you're describing is DI and not "Smash DI" which is an unfortunate term for a different thing.

Smash DI = during hitlag (i.e. the time when you're "frozen" getting hit by an attack), you can mash on the control stick to actually move your character's position in space during that frozen time. For rapid mutli-hit moves like Bowser's fire, you can easily get out of the move by smash-DI'ing your character so they move out of the hitbox.

Edit: Here we go: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Smash_DI
Thanks, I guess I got confused.


Yea sorry, i stumbled on your post after i replied. Thanks for sharing ur knowledge
Sorry if I mislead you, didn't mean to. And yes, the game apparently doesn't have Smash DI, or is very hard to do.
 

Delzethin

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No, we just have always known nintendo is listening. So it is a toss up between the game being competitive and the game just being meh competitively. We just don't feel it is important to analyze the characters move set as of right now since the base mechanics are what needs work. And nobody is asking for exactly like melee and it isn't a vocal minority. There are a ton of people who play competitively who would like to be heard. The vast majority of people who play basketball didn't really care or need the 3 point line moved farther. But the small amount of people at the top felt it was necessary. Using the "oh it is only a minority so we don't need to do anything. argument is tired and illegitimate. It is even less so in competitive games nowadays where many devs listen to player feedback.
I think there's been a misunderstanding. I like how the devs said they're listening to what the people from the invitational had to say. I also like how the community in general is being very understanding and saying "It's rough around the edges at the moment, but it's still a work in progress and it looks like a really promising blend of the previous games" rather than getting drowned out by the genwunner "SSB4 is doomed because it doesn't look like Melee 2.0" mentality.
 

ECHOnce

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This (bolded/italic) statement is kind of untrue. Yes, Usmash, and Dsmash have slightly less range, but the power should be the same, and I don't even know if he understands priority. Fsmash and Usmash are still transcending, which is THE HIGHEST priority. I think what threw him was the slightly smaller range. (Which seems to be fair, considering Dsmash and Usmash had un-matching to the visual, and unrealistic range in Brawl.) People very often confuse priority with hit-box range. This was a big thing for Falcon's transition to Brawl, where his attacks did roughly the same damage (Which is part of priority.) but the hit-boxes were significantly smaller.
Now, the aforementioned Smash attacks have NOT had their priority changed at ALL (If anything, they got better "priority" with their 1% more each of them can do.)

tl;dr, Range isn't the same as priority. Don't immediately think "It's priority got worse." If you can't spam it on someone as well as before.

Also, Kicks are just as powerful as Brawl's, but no worse. They still KO at around 80% average. (Just like Brawl.)

So yeah, don't take all of his Zelda info as fact at all. She has already gotten many changes that very likely went un-explored by the invitational players. Much has changed.
She's definitely an example of a character that needs further testing of these new perks before we can say for sure on how 'weak' she is.

Don't hold your breath on a high tier placement, though.
Even though different doesn't necessarily mean bad, it's clear that the 'unexplored' doesn't hold much for her as it is. We both have been keeping up with SSB4 Zelda data, and both know that her good combo starters hit further away, her multi-hit hitboxes string just as badly together as they did in Brawl, if not worse, and some of her best finishers are nerfed in range or simply removed. A select few things were buffed, but they do not make up for the plethora of weaknesses that Nintendo didn't address, or made even worse. It's all good trying to keep up hope for her, but we shouldn't steer people from the fact that she wouldn't make it very far past low-tier if the game was released tomorrow, be it in the initial metagame, or years down the line...maybe mid-low if we discover something miraculous. Others aren't gonna read up on Zelda info like we do, so we shouldn't give influence them into believing her problem is any smaller of a deal than it is. Even if all of this is argued to not be the case, I'm sure everyone can agree that she needs all the help she can get, and talking about our small hopes in threads like this might steer some with a less comprehensive understanding of the new and old Zeldas away from supporting that as strongly :/
 
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Metarex000

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Jun 17, 2014
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CT ZeRo joins Smashboards again to offer insight on the differences between Super Smash Brothers Brawl and Super Smash Brothers Wii U. ZeRo breaks down the characters, speed, and other noticeable differences between the games. ZeRo recently won the Super Smash Brothers Wii U Invitational at E3 and earlier this year took second place in Super Smash Brothers Brawl at APEX 2014. Come check out what ZeRo has to say from his experience with the two games!
Speed
First off, one of the big differences between both games is that Super Smash Brothers Wii U has a much different feel compared to other Smash games, since the engine is different. It is hard to compare both precisely at this point with my current experience, since they're both different games and have different flows, but I'll try my best with my current knowledge. Basically, some aspects are faster, others are slower, mechanics changed, and timings did, too. Basically, it is a whole new experience, but I can't be as accurate as I'd like to be, right now.

The Characters

ZeRo Suit Samus
: Her D-Smash has less hit stun than in Brawl, which is a big deal. You don't have enough time to perform actions, and after an opponent is out of stun, they won't fly as far. Her Side B also has less shield stun and is a bit weaker, but still does a great job at zoning. Her jab, up tilt, d-tilt and f-tilt are all great - ZSS had a great ground game in Brawl which has clearly carried over into Smash Wii U. Her Dash Attack, however, has been reworked. In Brawl, the dash attack had very low knockback and allowed some combos. In Smash Wii U, its' purpose is to get through your opponent. The move crosses over your opponent, even when shielded, so it's a great mix up tool that ZSS didn't have in Brawl.

Her recovery has changed drastically. Her down B is weaker off the stage now: In Brawl, it was one of the most powerful spikes, being able to kill characters at extremely low percents. In Smash Wii U, her side B recovery works similar to Brawl but with a slightly higher range and her new up b that lifts her up can be a combo finisher, anti aerial, or a KO move. Overall, her recovery is still good, just in different ways. Her throw game is similar to Brawl, where she doesn't have that many follow ups, but you can put the positional advantage to good use.


Fox: Mr. McCloud has changed quite a bit. His most noticeable change is to his side B: he doesn't enter free fall animation after using his side B in the air, allowing him to side B into up B. This is a huge deal for his recovery. Fox's laser game is much slower compared to Brawl. In Smash Wii U, he doesn't really have an effective laser game, which will force Fox players to spend more time in close quarters against their opponents. Fox's up smash is also considerably weaker. His down air retains properties similar to its Brawl counterpart. At low percents, down air can be followed by an multiple up tilts for an effective combo. However, I'm not sure if you can up smash, grab or down smash from it, as was possible in Brawl. Overall, Fox has changed quite a bit and will require players to adopt a different playstyle than in previous Smash games to be efficient.

Kirby: Kirby's main mechanics haven't changed much. However, he is quite powerful in this game. His shield pressure is very safe, and his up throw has become a powerful KO move. His smash attacks are all very effective as well. Coupled with a great up close game that mixes in fast tilts, a good grab range, and a strong recovery, Kirby looks to be a powerful character this time around. One of the most important changes was to his down air: because there was no Smash DI present in the demo, the move was very reminiscent of Kirby's down air in Smash 64 and could safely be used as a powerful off stage move. While not as powerful because of the ledge auto snapping, it's still a very good option to successfully edgeguard. This is significant because you can safely grab the ledge and not get down aired as you're recovering.


Marth: Very different from how he is in Brawl. In Brawl, he is a very zoning dependent character that had powerful and strong attacks complemented by a scary grab game. His weakness was how he had to commit with every decision he took, so any type of bait was very effective on him. In Smash Wii U, his F-Air has more landing lag, and he can't do two of them in the air as in previous Smash games. Marth's attacks are still quite powerful, but as a character he is now more ground based. Interestingly, his up throw is now a KO move. Just like Fox, Marth will require a much different playstyle to be efficient with, but the range, speed, and power are all there in his moveset.

Zelda: In Brawl, Zelda wasn't considered a particularly strong character. Unfortunately, I don't think much has changed; she feels a bit weak compared to the other characters. Zelda even appears to have lost some power in the transition to Smash Wii U. Zelda's Smashes are weaker overall and have less shield stun and priority, and her trademark kicks are less punishing than before. She has a new down B that is very unexplored, and her ground game is quite different. With time, experienced players may be able to find new strategies and unlock her hidden potential. But when I used her, I really struggled, and many others did as well.

Pikachu: I had tons of fun using him in Smash Wii U, he was actually my original pick before I tried ZeRo Suit Samus. He's very agile, and his down smash almost always combos into Thunder, which is a spike. Pikachu can even follow up post-Thunder! Because Smash DI has been removed, his moveset is even more effective because opponents cannot escape from multi hit attacks now. Pikachu has really benefited from the new mechanics in Smash 4.

Samus: Mr. Masahiro Sakurai said that during testing she was the most powerful! However, she wasn't picked in the invitational. Hugo 'Hugs' Gonzales actually used her quite a bit, but thought she wasn't that powerful. Her missile game is much slower than in Melee and Brawl, but her ground game, and overall moves are all very fast and effective. And her up b, screw attack, is now a KO move! I think she has great potential, but she doesn't play like in any other Smash game.

Donkey Kong: Another pick that I considered greatly. Not only is Donkey Kong faster than he is Brawl, he's more agile in the air, and has an even more powerful spike to tack on to his already strong attacks. Donkey Kong's major change is basically that he's faster overall. Simple, maybe, but also a huge deal!

Pit: Pit has changed quite a bit. The removal of Smash DI affects multi hit characters quite a bit, and because Pit has several multi hit moves, his attacks are more reliable than ever. He's quite agile, and his side B is extremely powerful. Because of its super armor and strength, he can counter a lot of attacks with it. His arrows are much slower than before as well, making it difficult to play an effective range game. Pit feels like a more rushdown character now. In Brawl, Pit was more of a patient, reactive character with a good projectile and few approach options. Now, his projectile game is weaker and he has a fantastic approach, with more reliable hits overall.

Mario: Mario is a lot faster than in Brawl, even more agile in the air, and feels quite good! Solid moveset overall, both in the air and ground, and difficult to edgeguard at times due to his up b's priority. Mario still lacks a direct approach option, so he's mainly dashing around, catching people in the air, and putting his good aerial game to use. Grabs are also very effective. Mario's smash attacks are a lot more powerful now, and are a bit quicker too, making them more reliable options.


Bowser: In Brawl, Bowser had solid grab release and ground games, but lacked the approach and instant range options to deal with pressure outside of his up b out of shield. While his speed has improved, Bowser still doesn't have that solid approach option or punish game. That's what he really needs. Overall, he's faster in the air and ground compared to Brawl, and I see potential for the character in the hands of a dedicated player.

Olimar: Olimar had a great projectile game in Brawl, coupled with fantastic defensive tools and powerful KO options. However, his metagame took years to develop. I think that Olimar's development in Smash Wii U may follow the same arc: He has tons of potential, but it may take some time. He has a very good recovery this time around that covers great distances quickly. He can even camp underneath the stage with it, as AmSa did to protect himself vs. final smashes during the practice rounds. Olimar's attacks still pack a punch, but his projectile game is noticeably weaker. His aerial game, on the other hand, is much stronger. It's hard to say where he'll end up when Smash Wii U develops, but I do believe that he will be solid.

Sonic: No one really used him at all, and I only had the chance to try him once. From what I tried, his combos don't work like in Brawl, they are not based on his spin, but more aerial/ground based. Other than that, I couldn't figure out much, unfortunately.

Link: In Brawl, his projectile game was solid at times, but still weak. In Smash Wii U, it's even weaker, but in exchange he has a much faster ground and aerial game. Link also has a more reliable recovery due to his hookshot and up B priority. He has become much more of a close-quarters character than his Brawl counterpart.
 

Prynne

Smash Apprentice
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C'mon, another bad Zelda build? I'm starting to think that someone has a grudge against the Queen.
 

ZanZero

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Am I the only person who get's irritated when I see ZeRo call her ZeRo Suit Samus?
I'm sure he's a cool guy, but that just seems narcissistic and cocky to me.
Great info though, keep it up.
 
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infomon

Smash Scientist
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Mar 11, 2008
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Am I the only person who get's irritated when I see ZeRo call her ZeRo Suit Samus?
I'm sure he's a cool guy, but that just seems narcissistic and cocky to me.
Great info though, keep it up.
Yeah she should be called ZanZeroSuitSamus :D
 

Prince Longstrok

Taker of lives, defiler of daughters.
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I'm a Project M player and I think this games looks fast. Not Melee or PM fast(which isn't a bad thing), but fast. What's your point?
Its not fast enough is my point. I no longer get excited at character reveals because i know they are going to play just as spowly as the rest of the cast.
 

LovinMitts

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Perhaps the physics of this game are meant to be a tribute to the original Smash? Its floaty, grabs are KO moves again, and It has a speed between Melee and Brawl (leaning a bit toward Brawl, but oh well)
 

Kink-Link5

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The biggest problems with the game pacing and physics are how godawful and clunky the dash mechanics are. No momentum carried into a jump from dash (A component present in literally every other platforming game until Brawl), and over-dedicated dashes that can't be stopped, canceled, or acted out of with anything but a few select options for a long time.

Even people that don't KNOW dashdancing still do it accidentally from time to time because they just want their character to respond to their input, and needing to have a dash start, extend for a while, then go through the ending animation before they can dash again and keep moving is just plain unintuitive design.

Shielding isn't even possible in Smash4, at the moment, until the character is well into their runcycle animation.

It would not hurt casual players to be able to have their character's dashes respond to each input, be able to crouch to cancel their runcycle, or have options during the initial dash outside of jumping and using dash attack. It wouldn't hurt to have a core aspect of platformers and of real life -- concervation of momentum -- included in the game either.

The biggest reason for Melee's strong pacing is not because you can cancel into cancel into cancel, or wavedash, or pressure safely against a shield up close. The main reason Melee feels and controls so quickly is because there exist options for moving around in a fluid way. It doesn't matter what those options are. Dashdancing is the biggest one because it's a fast movement choice and works intuitively to how it feels, but it extends to a large number of movement options. Quick, responsive jumps with a low number of jumpsquat frames; a variable TopN bone collision detection that causes a smooth landing to occur relative to a character's current animation; et al.

I am fully aware that this is information pertaining to the demo of the game. That being said, these are all physics components that are missing just as much in Brawl, with nothing still in the game to provide similar kinds of fluid and intuitive movement.

This isn't about wanting Melee 2.0. This is about NOT wanting Brawl 2.0 and wanting Smash 4.0 instead. If I wanted the same thing as Brawl, I can just play Brawl. The complaints being leveraged against the playing new game are that the game isn't offering anything new in terms of fresh gameplay experiences. If all the new characters still control just as unresponsively as in Brawl, it hardly feels like a new experience.
 

Angiance

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Why, oh why, are people evaluating an incomplete product?¿?¿

Definition
DEMO: an early, or partially incomplete product distributed to allow consumers free, but limited, entertainment.
 

QJD1381

Smash Apprentice
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It sounds like projectiles in general were weakened.

I get it, already, Fox was the best in Melee. He doesn't need to be nerfed again after Brawl already neutered him. I'm happy about the change to Fox Illusion, but that Blaster and Up-Smash nerf just kills me!
 
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