Social "Friends being fought for!" Ike General Discussion

[Xuan Wu]

Seriously, more thoughts on this?

Marth board has a pretty good set up, as do a few others.

I'd say we should focus most of our efforts in familiarizing ourselves with match-ups against the perceived top tiers, or against any character that is likely to establish itself as a competitive threat in the near future in ways we've not yet imagined (i.e. SSBB Sonic and ZSS).

We should also try to acquire match-up knowledge from both customs and non-customs perspectives.

^-^

 

[Heartstring]

As a sonic main I can sum up the new Sonic MU for you:
>Lose game 1
>Pick Mii Brawler/Sheik
>Win the set 2-1

 

[san.]

Sonic is not that bad, just very player-driven vs character. I just won a tournament; lost to a Pikachu 2-1 in Winner's Semis, beat the Pikachu 3-0 in loser's, beat a Sonic 3-0 in Grand finals first set, beat the Sonic 1st game in the second set, and had trouble when he switched to Sheik and won 3-2.

 

[Vinylic.]

Niiice. Got any matches to put up on video?

 

[san.]

Played on the Pikachu player's Wii U, not mine. Grand finals second set was recorded, and random other matches were recorded.

 

[Heartstring]

Yeah if we can get those uploaded that would rock :D
I'd love to see how you dealt with it, what was the name of the sonic you played?

 

[san.]

Just Goggles, lol. He's a bit better than the gameplay from this video since he didn't have an adapter until recently, but this is his only Smash 4 video with Sonic that I'm aware of and got second at that tournament with Sonic, Sheik, and Kirby in Philadelphia.

There's also Ryo vs StaticManny and another Sonic that went back and forth from a few weeks back. I think that Sonic may only have a slight advantage.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

From my experience with Sonic at tournaments, Ike has the slight advantage. Its a very chaotic match up either way though.

 

[Ekans647]

From my experience with Sonic at tournaments, Ike has the slight advantage. Its a very chaotic match up either way though.

How do you handle it? I always win but it's my least favorite MU because it so exhausting and boring. You have a hard time hitting Sonic, but Sonic can't KO you. I narrowly win because I'm able to (somehow) knock him off stage and get the edgeguard, but even then I may drop the edgeguard because of his damn mobility.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If they're spinning, I shield the moment they stop charging and start flying at me.

That was actually a pretty major part of my game against the two Sonics I played again. It basically stopped all of their mixups, which they had used to good success against their previous opponents. Unless there is some sort of mysterious tech that they (and I) didn't know about, they can't cancel Side B or Down B directly into grab. After that they either canceled it early (react to what they do after that as needed), canceled it behind me (Bair bait), or canceled it after jumping up and through me (Utilt/Usmash/Uair/Bair/Nair/Turn-Around Aether bait).

If they weren't trying to spin dash me, I focused heavily on Fair/Bair/Dtilt/Jab/Grab. Didn't use any other attacks if we were both on the ground/close to the ground as they left me too open and would result in them dash grabbing me. If they tried to recover high or ending up trying to hit me with an aerial while I was on the ground I would either Utilt or Usmash depending on the situation. Usmash is dangerous, they can bait you by moving into the edge of Usmash range, then homing attack (which raises them up and out of range as you swing), then smash into you during your recovery time. If they were recovering low I used Eruption more for forcing them to make their recovery predicable rather than trying to hit them after spring, but if it connected it connected.

If they tried to Uthrow -> Spring -> Uair me I would go for a Wavebounced Eruption. Spring would send them flying into the hitbox and then up and KO'd. It is risky though, sometimes I went for Counter instead just so I could safely get down or even just QD out of the way and fast fall back down. Counter in general I would throw out on rare occasion when I knew they were fishing for a Fsmash/Bair kill, basically to get into their head and make them try to kill me less. Nair I could get back from if it didn't outright kill me so I didn't worry much about that one in general.

I admit its a rather exhausting MU. I had to face both Sonics back to back. The second one managed to get into my head and deal about 90% damage without me being able to touch him in one of the later stocks. I then managed to string 3-4 Bairs in a row, got him off stage, and then he accidentally Dair'd while I was trying to Dair him. He was trying for Nair so he would have gotten hit anyways, but it basically sealed the game for me. Spend the last 40 seconds running away with Quickdraw and good DI.

Overall to me though, the key is forcing them to be predictable. Sonic has so many options, so you got to get into the Sonic player's head. Make them think that their spin tricks are worthless and that every time they go for a kill move you have a counter against it. Make Ike seem nearly as fast as Sonic by sticking with the moves with little to no ending lag. When you have momentum, go all out and just keep wailing on them. The moment they stop that momentum go defensive and turtle.

 

[gsninja]

Anyone watching B.E.A.S.T. 5? I can hear the amount of Luigi mains multiplying tenfold.

 

[Ekans647]

If they're spinning, I shield the moment they stop charging and start flying at me.

That was actually a pretty major part of my game against the two Sonics I played again. It basically stopped all of their mixups, which they had used to good success against their previous opponents. Unless there is some sort of mysterious tech that they (and I) didn't know about, they can't cancel Side B or Down B directly into grab. After that they either canceled it early (react to what they do after that as needed), canceled it behind me (Bair bait), or canceled it after jumping up and through me (Utilt/Usmash/Uair/Bair/Nair/Turn-Around Aether bait).

If they weren't trying to spin dash me, I focused heavily on Fair/Bair/Dtilt/Jab/Grab. Didn't use any other attacks if we were both on the ground/close to the ground as they left me too open and would result in them dash grabbing me. If they tried to recover high or ending up trying to hit me with an aerial while I was on the ground I would either Utilt or Usmash depending on the situation. Usmash is dangerous, they can bait you by moving into the edge of Usmash range, then homing attack (which raises them up and out of range as you swing), then smash into you during your recovery time. If they were recovering low I used Eruption more for forcing them to make their recovery predicable rather than trying to hit them after spring, but if it connected it connected.

If they tried to Uthrow -> Spring -> Uair me I would go for a Wavebounced Eruption. Spring would send them flying into the hitbox and then up and KO'd. It is risky though, sometimes I went for Counter instead just so I could safely get down or even just QD out of the way and fast fall back down. Counter in general I would throw out on rare occasion when I knew they were fishing for a Fsmash/Bair kill, basically to get into their head and make them try to kill me less. Nair I could get back from if it didn't outright kill me so I didn't worry much about that one in general.

I admit its a rather exhausting MU. I had to face both Sonics back to back. The second one managed to get into my head and deal about 90% damage without me being able to touch him in one of the later stocks. I then managed to string 3-4 Bairs in a row, got him off stage, and then he accidentally Dair'd while I was trying to Dair him. He was trying for Nair so he would have gotten hit anyways, but it basically sealed the game for me. Spend the last 40 seconds running away with Quickdraw and good DI.

Overall to me though, the key is forcing them to be predictable. Sonic has so many options, so you got to get into the Sonic player's head. Make them think that their spin tricks are worthless and that every time they go for a kill move you have a counter against it. Make Ike seem nearly as fast as Sonic by sticking with the moves with little to no ending lag. When you have momentum, go all out and just keep wailing on them. The moment they stop that momentum go defensive and turtle.

Thanks for the advice. This MU, regardless of my character choice, is a ***** to deal with. It suck the fun out of the game. Hopefully this will make thing easier.

 

[Heartstring]

Anyone watching B.E.A.S.T. 5? I can hear the amount of Luigi mains multiplying tenfold.

That Luigi is my main training partner...
I could have been in grands with hiiiiiim
University Johns man

Either way I'm mega pumped that he won all these hours later

 

[Vinylic.]

@ Heartstring Yo, tell him I said "From the Ikeboards Crew, you really gave it your all. Amazing job; We can't wait to give you some nairs when we meet!"

 

[Heartstring]

I will do man, He's so pumped for apex right now, keitaro trying to sort out his flight atm

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Somebody good at this sort of thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spHWz-9F7cQ&feature=youtu.be

See if Ike has any aerials in which he can do that.

 

[Zatchiel]

Somebody good at this sort of thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spHWz-9F7cQ&feature=youtu.be

See if Ike has any aerials in which he can do that.

F-air seems to work, I've managed to get f-air -> jab, f-tilt, or d-tilt as a true (very) low-percent combo in training mode so far. The timing feels incredibly strict, I can't get these very consistently at all right now.

Here's some sort of proof:

This is from using the technique to do f-air -> full jab combo. N-air into the same thing deals about 20%.

HOLY **** IT WORKS WITH D-AIR

F-air -> d-tilt

Spoiler

And hot damn there's d-air -> jab

Spoiler

I know for certain my execution is just inconsistent, but this still feels really difficult to pull off. I've done what I can for now.

 

[Robin1613]

trying to get something off his up air, no luck so far.

 

[Ekans647]

For some odd reason I have a knack for Aethercide. If my opponent goes offstage and I have a stock lead, I can land an aether 80% of the time.

So how useful is Short-Hop with Ike? I finally learned how to do it, but what its practical applications?

 

[GhostUrsa]

Ekans647, it improves your options for combo-ing, is a great way to hit targets that are trying to air dodge past you (when used with n-air), and helps with your approach against a combatant with ranged abilities. It works well as a defensive strategy instead of rolling since you can still attack while getting out of the way of things. (Retreating f-airs are something I still need to get into the habit of myself, but it is satisfying to get out of harms way, hit your opponent and look good doing it at the same time)

 

[Ekans647]

Ekans647, it improves your options for combo-ing, is a great way to hit targets that are trying to air dodge past you (when used with n-air), and helps with your approach against a combatant with ranged abilities. It works well as a defensive strategy instead of rolling since you can still attack while getting out of the way of things. (Retreating f-airs are something I still need to get into the habit of myself, but it is satisfying to get out of harms way, hit your opponent and look good doing it at the same time)

Okay. My concern is landing lag though. Wouldn't be a problem if we still had l-cancelling.

So can Ike play defensively? Can he excel at it, of is he more offensively based? WHat are some good ways to defensively pressure your opponent?

 

[Kimchi]

Okay. My concern is landing lag though. Wouldn't be a problem if we still had l-cancelling.

So can Ike play defensively? Can he excel at it, of is he more offensively based? WHat are some good ways to defensively pressure your opponent?

One option that's excellent for both defensive purposes and pressuring your opponent is to empty SH with your back turned. You could either SH Bair, which your opponent has to respect since it auto cancels and leaves a very small window for your opponent to punish if you whiff it and FF (unless he's Little Mac or some other fast character), or just empty hop as a mix up and if your opponent misspaces his attacks, you can run in and punish him during his ending lag with a dash grab. The former is great for defensive purposes while the latter is great for pressuring your opponent since he has to respect your Bairs and space well, or eat a grab that could lead to rack in damage.

 

[GhostUrsa]

Retreating n-air can also be good if your opponent likes to run through and attempt a pivot attack as well. (It's range is phenomenal. Almost 270 degrees of coverage in that attack!)

As for whether or not he's got great defensive pressure is subjective to the Match-up.

 

[Ekans647]

So short hops and grabs. I like. I prefer defence to offense so it's great to know Ike has some. I figured he would with Ragnell. @ san. To your knowledge, what defensive option does Ike has. If so, how many? Does he thrive off defense?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike should be played both offensively and defensively.

Use retreating Fairs and cover your lands with Dtilt if the opponent starts getting greedy. Kimchi already explained the Bair options (you can add a perfect pivot Dtilt/Jab as an option out of Bair/Empty Hop as well). Retreating Nair works against some characters. Use your massive aerial range to force a mistake while keeping yourself safe.

The moment the mistake happens, rip them a new one. Once that momentum dies, go back to turtling.

 

[Sol0ke]

I know I mentioned this before, but

Spoiler

http://www.thetanooki.com/2014/12/24/fire-emblem-path-of-radiance-radiant-dawn-soundtracks-coming-march-4th/
The boxes look nice!

 

[Robin1613]

Gonna blast that The Devoted theme in my car haha

 

[Ekans647]

So did you guys see the frailer for the new Fire Emblem game? Looks amazing! But honestly, I can;t discern anything meaningful from the trailer.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So did you guys see the frailer for the new Fire Emblem game? Looks amazing! But honestly, I can;t discern anything meaningful from the trailer.

It better not have freaking Pair Up and Second Seals again.

Too early to judge anything of value but A) no Pair Ups were shown, yay! B) Maps so far look open and lacking walls again. Bleh.

 

[Ekans647]

It better not have freaking Pair Up and Second Seals again.

Too early to judge anything of value but A) no Pair Ups were shown, yay! B) Maps so far look open and lacking walls again. Bleh.

I'm okay with the removal of second seals. Having to grind just to get a certain skill (i.e. Astra, Galeforce) was annoying. I would be okay with Pair Up though, as long as they put some sort of restriction on it, such as A/S rank supports only, only 3 per map.

 

[SimplyClutchh]

Looks awesome to me! That huge golem-looking thing looked interesting, considering they said they're introducing new challenges to the game we haven't seen before. I think it'd be an interesting twist if there would be bosses that take up more than one square.

Also, do you guys think there's still hope for a Fire Emblem on the Wii U?

 

[Oblivion129]

Looks like it'll have the same gameplay as Awakening, which is great IMO. I'll expect a better story.

Also, we get to play as Ike in Codename S.T.E.A.M.

 

[Ekans647]

Looks like it'll have the same gameplay as Awakening, which is great IMO. I'll expect a better story.

Also, we get to play as Ike in Codename S.T.E.A.M.

How expensive are amiibo's? If I get the new 3DS I'll get and Ike one.

I enjoyed the story for awakening, but the think I hope returns is the DLC.

 

[Oblivion129]

How expensive are amiibo's? If I get the new 3DS I'll get and Ike one.

I enjoyed the story for awakening, but the think I hope returns is the DLC.

$12.99
I reserved mine already, but a lot of stores already sold out on him. In fact, I don't know which store hasn't sold out already.

Some translation notes about the new FE https://kantopia.wordpress.com/2015/01/14/fire-emblem-14-trailer-translation-commentary/

Apparently the translator has the same opinions as me. I enjoyed Awakening's story but it wasn't incredible either, imo.

I also really want this one to have wi-fi battles.

 

[Arrei]

no Pair Ups were shown, yay!

?


Also, unless my eyes deceive me, I do believe the rocket ship Knights are gone, thank god.

 

[Ekans647]

$12.99
I reserved mine already, but a lot of stores already sold out on him. In fact, I don't know which store hasn't sold out already.

Some translation notes about the new FE https://kantopia.wordpress.com/2015/01/14/fire-emblem-14-trailer-translation-commentary/

Apparently the translator has the same opinions as me. I enjoyed Awakening's story but it wasn't incredible either, imo.

I also really want this one to have wi-fi battles.

If there is WiFi battles, want there to be a formal match-making & ranking system, not just "some sort of match-making" used in SSB4.

On the topic of amiibos', how does the Ike one look? I can easily afford it, but some of the amiibos' look stupid.

 

[TechPowah]

Ike is now saving the entire world

I guess "the world" encompases Ike's friends now?

Ike is the protector of Earth. Godspeed, Ike ;_;

 

[Oblivion129]

If there is WiFi battles, want there to be a formal match-making & ranking system, not just "some sort of match-making" used in SSB4.

On the topic of amiibos', how does the Ike one look? I can easily afford it, but some of the amiibos' look stupid.

Not as good as first shown, but still good.

 

[Ekans647]

Not as good as first shown, but still good.

My god. The first looks okay but the second looks like a toy out of a Horror film.

 

[Oblivion129]

I wouldn't worry about it. I have a Marth one and they're actually pretty small and won't notice the face and other details.