Fox: Is he number one?

[KirbyKaze]

Just because KirbyKaze says it doesn't make it true. Bowser is better than a lot of people think, but third best in the game is an exaggeration beyond words.

Wow, learn the theorysmash you ****ing scrub.

Bowser as third is the conservative estimate. He's probably 2nd. Magus explained it because he has a broken ledgestall in frame-by-frame Melee and invincible Up+B shenanigans so nobody can do anything to him.

Bowser *****.

You just don't know.

***** YOU JUST DON'T ****ING KNOW.

 

[Veetaak]

fox>falco imo

 

[Pi]

ITT: confusion about what a tier list is and what it means to be at the top of it lol

 

[ph00tbag]

Wow, learn the theorysmash you ****ing scrub.

Bowser as third is the conservative estimate. He's probably 2nd. Magus explained it because he has a broken ledgestall in frame-by-frame Melee and invincible Up+B shenanigans so nobody can do anything to him.

Bowser *****.

You just don't know.

***** YOU JUST DON'T ****ING KNOW.

ok dud

lo

 

[sirlaser]

Speaking as a n00b, and reiterating what people have been saying, I find Falco easier to use than Fox when you're trying to kill the other guy. Easier wavedash + lasers + combos.

SS did play Zhu/against Falco frequently back in the day (2007-9 videos). I'm hoping he would post his experience here.

M2K: Really? Aphex Twin's Windowlicker?

 

[BEES]

I don't understand the debate about Fox's recovery vs. Falco's in the first place. Fox's is SO much better in every way (except for Falco's side-B spiking) that it ends up making quite a large difference. Go watch a video and count how many times Fox players recover compared to Falco players, and count how many times each get gimped. Fox falls slower, his up-B has a hitbox before moving, his up-B goes over twice as far, and his side-B goes further. How could that ever be negligible? Anyone who plays both spacies will tell you that Fox lives so much longer. If you need more convincing, go watch Genesis 2 GFs and see how many times Mango recovers SAFELY with Fox that Falco could have simply been edge hogged in.

It's easy to forget, but Falco has a higher double-jump than Fox. That makes up some, not all, but some of the difference in length between their recovery moves. It makes the difference much less significant than you make it out to be.

 

[frotaz37]

The fact

lol, this kid

I don't understand the debate about Fox's recovery vs. Falco's in the first place. Fox's is SO much better in every way (except for Falco's side-B spiking) that it ends up making quite a large difference. Go watch a video and count how many times Fox players recover compared to Falco players, and count how many times each get gimped. Fox falls slower, his up-B has a hitbox before moving, his up-B goes over twice as far, and his side-B goes further. How could that ever be negligible? Anyone who plays both spacies will tell you that Fox lives so much longer. If you need more convincing, go watch Genesis 2 GFs and see how many times Mango recovers SAFELY with Fox that Falco could have simply been edge hogged in.

Exactly. It makes a difference, even among the best players...I'm guessing people who say it's negligible are operating under the assumption that the players are playing perfectly and never missing edge guards. Fox's recovery isn't perfect and is in no way gimp proof, but when compared to Falco, it's so much better in nearly every way. I will never understand how increased survivability can be considered unimportant among characters that are so close in effectiveness, especially when discussing which character is better.

 

[JPOBS]

It's easy to forget, but Falco has a higher double-jump than Fox. That makes up some, not all, but some of the difference in length between their recovery moves. It makes the difference much less significant than you make it out to be.

I think this is a miss conception. Falco's and Fox's double jumps are actually identical iirc.

 

[oliman]

falco may be the best right now, but overall i dont think hes #1

quite simply imo, before falco fell for stupid **** like chain grabs and uber edgeguards, which made him only like 4 on the tier list. now falcos dont fall for that stuff cuz were not stupid i guess. now people think hes like the most broken thing in the fighting community. does he deserve to be #1 right now? probably, but in no way imo is he the best in the game. people just need to play different, if thats not too pigheaded to say. falco has a ton of flaws and u guys CAN capitalize on them

 

[Roneblaster]

I think falco is the best character.
I think he has some weaker MUs but i think falcos worst MU is 50-50.
I place so much value on how easy it is to edgeguard with him and how easy his tech skill requirement is compared to fox.
I havent even touched on his stage control...

 

[BEES]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30064
1-2) Kirby / Mewtwo
3) Jigglypuff
4) Yoshi
5) Falco
6-7) Fox / Ness
8) Sheik
9) Luigi
10) Peach
11) Ice Climbers
12) Captain Falcon
13) Bowser
14-15) Pichu / Pikachu
16-19) Dr. Mario / Mario / Marth / Samus
20) DK
21) Mr. Game & Watch
22) Ganondorf
23) Young Link
24) Roy
25) Link
26) Zelda

Falco's double jump is slightly higher than Fox's. Perhaps it is not enough to make a big difference.

 

[Mew2King]

most players that say falco is overrated either main or use falco.

 

[Strife]

Something else I forgot to mention as to why trying to gimp falco is a lot more dangerous than trying to gimp fox, is that fact that is UP-B has far more knock back than Fox's does. Falco's up B can actually be used as a legitimate kill move.

 

[Sinji]

falco stole foxes gun before the release of melee to get to this position yet fox is still number one.

I think we know why.

 

[Hax]

the best characters at human level are falco followed by jigglypuff. both take almost no skill compared to other characters

 

[Black_jo]

falco easier than sheik?

 

[JPOBS]

I'm not convinced Falco is any easier to use than any of the other characters. If that were the case, there would be more higher placing falcos due to the fact that his overall goodness as a character + "ease" of use + fun playstyle (people actually want to play him) would mean that more players would see success with him.

However, that is not at all what we see from results. We see there are 2 falcos (mango, pp, zhu sometimes) that place well and all the others get blown the fk up. Having 2 falcos represented in the top 12-20 placings isn't at all outrageous and pretty much means he must take a lot of skill to use.
Otherwise the character distribution among top placings would be way different considering the player population for falco is way higher than pretty much anyone except fox.

Jigglypuff is a special case because no one wants to play puff. She's not fun, and thats why we don;t see puffs. She very well might be eaiser though.

 

[Hax]

sheik was certainly easier to win with in the game's earlier years; by today's standards, falco is much easier.

 

[Bones0]

most players that say falco is overrated either main or use falco.

Sounds like Metaknight.

"most players that say MK is overpowered either doesn't main or use MK."


Of course Falco players think he's overrated. Pretty much every character board has a huge bias that their character isn't as good as people say it is. I'm sure the Falcon/Fox/Marth/Peach/etc. boards all have matchups biased against their character because that is the natural tendency. People typically focus on their character's weaknesses because that is what sticks out easily. Falco mains focus on how they get gimped all day, but tend to forget he has a sick dair. Falcon mains tend to focus on how they can't approach, but tend to forget how insanely fast he is.


The whole discussion about certain characters being easier, to me, is just completely ridiculous. Jiggs especially gets so much **** about being easy to use, but you never see people just switch to Jiggs and start destroying someone they were previously losing to. Her insanely slow speed makes it difficult to even do the simplest things like tech chasing, and you might be able to get rests when you are spamming it constantly in friendlies, but guarantee when you're on your last stock in tournament you choke on jab-reset rest. Obviously trying to play Fox without making mistakes is going to be more difficult than playing Jiggs without making mistakes, but Fox WITH technical mistakes can still be better than a Jiggs with perfect tech skill.

 

[hungrybox]

fox is the best character and always will be

 

[Kal]

Not very relevant, but I often argue for Marth being underrated. =/

 

[ShroudedOne]

Actually, we Peaches are very even-handed in our MU assessments. So are Jiggs mains, from what I've noticed.

And I agree, Bones. Sure, Jigglypuff is "easy" when you're just playing around in friendlies, but using any character that you don't know well is going to be a challenge. And EVERY character has intricacies that aren't explained by "uthrow > rest," or "dthrow > fair" or "down smash," or "dair." Those notions are silly.

 

[Mew2King]

hbox you main puff.

But Hax, I don't want to use the skill argument, cuz the top players all have very high amount of skill. But I do think they are easier to play consistently well enough to win tournaments in todays metagame than the other characters. So the best characters in today's metagame for sure are those 2.

No matter how bad you're playing (unless it's PP genesis2 bad) you can still shoot lasers, dair shine, and space puff bairs without having to worry about a huge punishment, even on a bad day. Other characters can die or lose much easier because of that. For this reason you can see the Falco's and puffs are consistent in tourney placings (obviously not the only factor, but if you think about it it is surely a big factor), while someone like Fox is not (unless you're as good as mango which honestly is just skill gaps, but that was just 1 tourament and was on his good day. Jman, lucky, chillin and colbol are all very inconsistent, as well as Kels and Sfat as proven this weekend at that big midwest tourney, and all good Fox's in general.) Every top fox is inconsistent, and it makes sense when you see he's much of an all-or-nothing type of character.

 

[Prince_Abu]

peach is pretty consistent, doesnt mean shes the best

 

[choknater]

Fox: He's number one.

 

[Pi]

mew2king: fox-marth-sheik-mk main

lolz

also marth is bad

 

[Mew2King]

well to be fair, I said Sheik was the best character in the game even while maining her for quite a while. I picked her up cuz I saw potential with her and liked her and was good with her. I'm pretty sure I could get quite a few people backing me up on that too.

also something interesting. The best player in Europe(obvious, pal version), Canada(Vwins, ntsc), and Australia(Caotic, pal version) all main peach. I'd still put her 6th though.

 

[Wake]

I'm not really sure that Vwins is the best player in Canada... not after watching STYC. I think that would go to Unknown or KK. Fox and Sheik.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Mew2king's a fickle young man. The best character in the game is the one who beat him last in tournament.

 

[rawrimamonster]

Fox's combos are almost entirely irrelevant because fox isn't a combo character. Optimal use of the character involves putting the opponent into a poor position and keeping them there the duration of the stock. Because the damage is essentially free, there is no practical difference between it and a combo. Focusing on combos past 2 or maybe 3 hits with fox will end in frustration.

I think fox is a heavily misunderstood character for a lot of reasons. But I still don't think he's the best. Maybe someday we'll see the "right" fox player. But I think Jman was really close for a while.

This pretty much is the best post here, everyone's still stuck on SDM's vids. Falco's game has taken a jump mostly because theres a lotta great falco players out there showing off his combos, so everyone jumps on the bandwagon and falco's game grows. Fox always was and always will be a space control character, not a combo fiend like falco.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Fox is the best because he has



blistering speed

 

[frotaz37]

Fox: He's number one.

Luigi disagrees.

 

[Mew2King]

I wouldn't say it if it was only 1 tournament or one set. I have held the same opinion for a long time because of a variety of players of said character(s).

 

[Dark Hart]

Didn't vwins lose to unknowns 'my fingers hurt' secondaries?

 

[JPOBS]

^ yes.

10char.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

Fox's grab game is heavily superior to Falco's


in other words a shine grab from Fox is a much tighter spot than one from Falco




such a disgusting mix-up... i still think Falco is an overall superior character, but that's definitely something to consider for the antithesis.






EDIT: oh, and the answer to the OP is "Neither."



Marth is the strongest character in Super Smash Bros. Melee

 

[Kal]

I was just wondering why Ganondorf is in the very middle of the tiers. Before I get into what I mean, allow me to first put out there that I have been playing for years, and I have watched MANY videos of the tournament masters.

My brother and I found out, through years of play, literally EVERY advanced technique in the game, except the wavedash, which we stumbled upon, but wrote off as simply hilarious. I was surprised to find that all the wacky observations we have encountered and adapted are actually defined in the glossary in the sticky topic above! Three of the particularly surprising terms that I could not believe had been widely known and utilized were the Phantom Hit (I just thought I had a glitchy game) and that effect where recovering at the right time from attacks that sent you flying results in an upward boost if you jump out/air dodge/whatever early enough (I cannot remember what it was called in the sticky), and the waveland.

Now, I have been using Ganondorf against my brother lately, and he cannot seem to beat me. We think we know why, and we think it puts Ganon at the top of the tiers. I will be brief. Ganondorf has his air forward. We call it 'The Punch.' It has that special hitbox like a sword, hence it goes right through anything except an attack with that same type of hitbox. It does 17% max, is relatively fast executing, has basically instant recovery on a barrier cancel, and is quite massive, killing at rather low percentages.

If he misses, he can just do his A punch if the opponent tries to retaliate, or shield/roll. I am telling you, Ganondorf is a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%, survives to insane damages thanks to his weight, and has ridiculous horizontal recovery (Double Jump, Ganondorf Kick Down B, ANOTHER Double Jump, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Up B).

Next, check his roll. It goes like half screen. It makes him rather fast, nearly eliminating his speed problem on the ground, and a great character when it comes to the defensive game. It pretty much eliminates the need for his wavedash, which, with Ganondorf, who needs to do most of his attacking from hops, is pretty much useless already unless you are looking to smash attack. Wavesmashing, however, in my opinion, is also a bad idea, because, in the time and damage it takes you to actually land a smash, you could have just used The Punch and killed you opponent by then.

Even though he has to fight mostly in the air, 3 of his 4 air attacks are pretty fast, and are quite massive. A major advantage he has is that nearly all his attacks move the opponent considerably, and can topple him from 0%, so his opponent gets little to no counterattack opportunity.

The only explanation I can find for why he is low on the tiers is that no one has used him seriously. I think he really keeps up, if not tops, the top tier characters.

I really do not like to simply shoot my mouth, and I am not one who thinks it right to shower a character in encomium, and never actually prove anything. Is there online for this somewhere, or is that simply wishful thinking? If not, please do not yell at me and stuff until you at least check out The Punch. Goes right through projectiles, goes right through attacks, goes right through faces. Please just give Ganondorf another shot and tell me what you thnk.

Final Comment: People have a tendency to think that posts from newcomers to a board but veterans of its respective game are saying they are better than everyone else, regardles of what the post actually says. Please note that I did not say 'I am better than you' or 'Ganon is better than Fox.' I said, essentially: 'Ganon seems to be great. These are his strengths. He may top Fox. Check him out and see if you agree.' I will say, however, that I am a full master of Ganondorf.

Please give Ganondorf a second look before responding so you know where I am coming from!

 

[bossa nova ♪]

funny that recently i've been thinking ganon is overrated (even as a mid tier)


and then i read an opinion that he's top tier


either you're crazy or this game is crazy

 

[Kal]

I'm not crazy. Ganondorf is a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

^^that line always gets me lol

Someone should do an epic reading of that post.